Upgrading 5.318ct to an ACA or BGD Sign - Calling M-2-B & Boom and other ACA owners

[Phoenix]

So @Phoenix, you need to ask WF if they will guarantee a "high H color". My initial thoughts are they will go by whatever the AGS cert says, which we know is done by humans and somewhat subjective so I doubt they will be agreeable to that request.

Perhaps @Texas Leaguer can confirm?

I am not sure either, but I'll be sure to ask WF if and when.

 

[Phoenix]

Truthfully, I’m not even 100% sure that JM would cover for damages during setting, but we are hoping. It’s been a little bit of a whirlwind experience with a disappointing broker who has been less than stellar with being forthcoming, communicative, or timely. We shall see...

In any case, we are proceeding nonetheless, as there have already been needless delays.

Hence, the stone arrived in L.A. yesterday!! We will be picking it up from V.C. in 3 weeks, at the tail-end of a trip up and down the California coast. Our goal when we decided to pull the trigger on a ring but a mere few months ago was to have it ready for our one-year anniversary. Though it wasn’t planned, the timing just fell that way so we decided it would be fun to try to have it ready in time for our milestone.

On another note, I really hope you’ll pull the trigger on an upgrade!! For purely selfish reasons, I would love to follow your journey whilst ogling an absolutely magnificent stone!!! Lol

YAY!!! Sooooo excited for you!! Can't wait to see a pic of your new beautiful ring on your finger!! and Happy 1- year Annniversary!!

Lol. We shall see. Will keep ya'all updated.

Thanks. x

 

[Phoenix]

I was just re-reading this. My day got somewhat wrecked yesterday on a personal level and I lost my concentration. Anyhow, back in the saddle today.

@Phoenix I would make sure you are looking at diamond prices in a way that favors you. I am not sure what you paid for your original stone or what you were offered as trade value; however, it seems probable there is a gap of some sort.

While I am going to make the assumption you have accumulated more wealth than me, I have had the luxury (and headache) of working, being entrusted and/or friends with people of vastly different wealth levels, some within the 9-10 digit realm. One thing I've always found in common with them (at least 1st generation earners) is they put considerable weight into maximizing value of whatever they purchase or invest in.

I mention this because it's skewed how I sometimes look at things. Relating this back to your situation:

• The money spent on your existing stone is a sunk cost.
• You aren't happy with it, so you wish to change it.
• You have the funds to do so.
• You just need to find the path that maximizes your value to help you achieve the goal.
• Your market for a private sale is fairly limited I imagine but one does exist. Yet at that level the stone has to be so unique or at such a bargain to make it stand out above other choices. Or possibly someone in your social circle that knows you is a good candidate. Still, the buyer pool is limited.
• It now becomes a game of can trade in beat or match a (realistic) private sale value.
• When you factor in a client list and time (which is truly our most valuable resource) and the trade in value likely begins to look more fair.
• Now it just becomes a matter of when to pull the trigger.
• On one hand, as diamond prices soar then so does your trade-in value.
• But so do retail prices. And probably the rate at which retail rises is greater than what trade in does.
• What you really care about is trade difference. Depending what the market is doing those two values will adjust up and down creating various trade difference scenarios. You've seen actual prices and I'm speculating but it's my guess as values are on the rise, the trade difference increases because the the stone you wish to trade is less dollars than the stone you want to buy.
• In the above, assume old value was $100k trade in. Price's spike 10% so the new value is $110k. At the same time the new stone was $150k and took the same 10% hike so the new adjusted retail price is $165k.
• In the model before a price increase your trade difference was $100k - $150k, or $50k.
• After the price increase, your trade difference grew to $110k - $165k, or $55k.
• In both scenarios the $50k is simply the price adjustment to go bigger, better, etc. Does the new stone give you $50k of satisfaction and can you spend funds without disrupting life or missing other more valubale investment opportunities? If yes, then waiting on market prices is having negligible effects on the real issue but if timed perfectly may work slightly in your favor.
• The odds of you striking the market at a "perfect" time will keep you in this vicious circle forever as no time is ever perfect.
• Regardless of all the math, charts, etc all this will come down to a gut call and how you feel about the deal in front of you. All the tech stuff may give you some warm fuzzies but won't get you there by itself.

@sledge, you've got it 100% right there. I am definitely one for maximising value of whatever I spend money on...Or at least that's why I try to do; sometimes I fail miserably! lol

True, the money already spent on my current stone is a sunk cost, but how much more would I need to shell out to go bigger? If prices continue to rise, the incoming stone would cost more and proportionately more so than the trade-in value of the existing stone would (assuming that the trade-in value would also go up, but most likely less than proportionately).

What it boils down to: is how much more of a top-up it's going to be, and can I justify the top-up to satisfy my desire for a larger stone? I know, after having struggled with this decision for several years, that I'd be prepared to shell out $tens of thousands for a few extra mm in diameter. But at the end of the day, the extra $$$$$ would have to be weighed against the satisfaction I'd get looking down at my finger. And no, I agree you cannot time the market perfectly, not in stocks, not in jewellery etc. So, at the end of the day, the decision may very well end up being made based on a gut feel.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I can tell you with certainty that they cannot/will not guarantee a high H. It is likely they will guarantee AGS H or higher as part of the agreement, but they cannot get anymore specific than that.

 

[ice empress]

I can tell you with certainty that they cannot/will not guarantee a high H. It is likely they will guarantee AGS H or higher as part of the agreement, but they cannot get anymore specific than that.

I’d agree with that. It just wouldn’t be feasible or realistic for them to be able to anticipate/foresee/promise a high H. You would need to be ok having an “average” H, and hope that it comes at the higher end.

 

[sledge]

I can tell you with certainty that they cannot/will not guarantee a high H. It is likely they will guarantee AGS H or higher as part of the agreement, but they cannot get anymore specific than that.

I’d agree with that. It just wouldn’t be feasible or realistic for them to be able to anticipate/foresee/promise a high H. You would need to be ok having an “average” H, and hope that it comes at the higher end.

Or maybe you could express your concern over color and negotiate a deal based on you taking a G for $X but you'd consider an H for $Y based on your visual acceptance of the H.

Then I'd try to negotiate the G color price down more aggressively than the H price. This gives them incentive to find a high H, and you the assurance of a high H or G stone for a price that makes you happy.

 

[OoohShiny]

Or maybe you could express your concern over color and negotiate a deal based on you taking a G for $X but you'd consider an H for $Y based on your visual acceptance of the H.

Then I'd try to negotiate the G color price down more aggressively than the H price. This gives them incentive to find a high H, and you the assurance of a high H or G stone for a price that makes you happy.

I think @Texas Leaguer would be best placed to confirm the possibilities!

 

[sledge]

I think @Texas Leaguer would be best placed to confirm the possibilities!

Without doubt. Wasn't trying to imply anything else. Just a strategy I'd discuss with WF if I were in the situation.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Well, I'll add one more thing. I don't think they are going to custom cut a 5+ carat diamond with only a commitment to buy if the customer "likes" the level of H color. That is totally unreasonable and not how custom cutting works. If it was a 1 ct stone that they sell daily, they might just put the stone back into inventory. But thats very unrealistic with a very large, high priced stone. I am sure WF will be happy to give pricing for the specs a person will accept, however it normally requires finding out what rough is available before doing so.

 

[Phoenix]

Thank you, @sledge, @diamondseeker2006, @ice empress and @OoohShiny, I'll talk to WF and see what they say.

I'm not quite sure yet how it's going to play out. I am afraid that if I accept that they could find a piece of rough that "would likely yield an H colour stone" that I'd end up with a mid or worse low-H. FYI, Holly is a mid-H and even that bothers me, since I am super colour-sensitive and somewhat colour-intolerant. I'd prefer it if they could say something like "the rough would likely yield a stone of G colour but possibly an H"; but then again they would, in this scenario charge me for a G and if the stone ended up at mid or low-H and then they'd refund some money, but I'd still be stuck with it.

I guess the only way for me to find out is to speak to WF themselves.

 

[OoohShiny]

Thank you, @sledge, @diamondseeker2006, @ice empress and @OoohShiny, I'll talk to WF and see what they say.

I'm not quite sure yet how it's going to play out. I am afraid that if I accept that they could find a piece of rough that "would likely yield an H colour stone" that I'd end up with a mid or worse low-H. FYI, Holly is a mid-H and even that bothers me, since I am super colour-sensitive and somewhat colour-intolerant. I'd prefer it if they could say something like "the rough would likely yield a stone of G colour but possibly an H"; but then again they would, in this scenario charge me for a G and if the stone ended up at mid or low-H and then they'd refund some money, but I'd still be stuck with it.

I guess the only way for me to find out is to speak to WF themselves.

IIRC the way it can work is that they would search for rough that is suitable, then give you a range of possible outcomes and associated prices based on the likely yield and colour of that rough - e.g. it's likely to give x.x carats, with 15% chance of an E, 55% chance of an F, 30% chance of a G, with prices given for each. (I think that's how it went for @Dancing Fire when Yoram/Jonathon cut his Octavia?)

Alternatively, they might give you a guaranteed G colour, but allow to you pay less if it comes in at an H but pay no more than the original quote for a G if it comes back as an F.

If you really don't want an H, I think you will have to ask for rough that is almost certain to give F or G outcomes, and accept that it is likely to cost you more!

 

[ice empress]

@Phoenix, it sounds like your colour sensitivity and intolerance call for a G stone... it’s too much of a gamble to hope for a higher H stone, with too high a risk of being disappointed.

Good news is that if you choose whiteflash to cut a rough stone for you with the expectation that it would be graded a G colour, and it came out as an H instead, you are actually not “stuck with it”.

Though you could obviously negotiate a lower price (if it came out as a high H for example and you wanted to keep it), you are actually entitled to a full refund with no obligation to take the lower coloured stone at a lower cost.

Perhaps your best case scenario is for Whiteflash (or any other vendor) to find an already existing cut stone to re-cut to super-ideal proportions. This would guarantee a minimum colour (and clarity) given that it has already been graded.

Indeed, if anything, after being re-cut, the colour and clarity would remain the same or improve, but couldn’t drop. This was an option VC and I discussed briefly. You would just have to make sure you personally aren’t the one buying the original stone, since it could get damaged during the re-cutting process and as you and I both know, likely wouldn’t be insured against such damages.

 

[ice empress]

P.s. was just thinking... it’s possible they wouldn’t have the same policy for a stone your size, since it would be much harder to find another buyer. But my understanding is that the above is their overall policy for custom cut ACA’s

 

[sledge]

You're very welcome @Phoenix. I've been dealing with a family death the last few days so talking diamonds is an enjoyable break.

What I'm hearing is you need to know a cost for a guaranteed G and see if you can live with that. You mentioned your existing stone bothers you so IMO you have to get over that hump so you are truly happy.

It's unlikely you will be happy with the price difference but in the long run it's always cheaper to do it right, just once. I've learned this lesson a few times.

Also with your color sensitivity, have you looked at some AGS H colored stones near your size range? Also, I take it your previous stone is GIA certified? The reason I ask is because larger stones have larger bodies that makes small tone differences appear worst than in smaller stones. Also some people believe AGS can be softer on color grading than GIA. I say this with a major grain of salt as AGS uses the same master sets to grade color that GIA does and both are done by humans which is subjective by that pure reason alone. Also the lower in the color range you go, the more variance you can have. Then we hear about the stones that was graded X at one lab and came back as Y from another lab. I think what we see and hear about is more a result of the tests being subjective than an intentional result of one lab or the other being soft in their grading of color or clarity.

Also do you know the setting you plan to use? Many people tend to think super ideal look more white than their counterparts in a face up view. Tint is generally observed from the side so a setting that covers more of the side may help.

I mention these things not to make your choice more difficult but to make sure you make the right choice the first time. You are spending good money on a luxury item of beauty. Upgrading and not being happy will rob you of the joy and make you feel it wasn't worth it.

 

[mrs-b]

@Phoenix -

You and I have talked about color a lot, so, in case you didn't see my last ring - I reached a point where I couldn't stand the tint any more, and I bought an ACA F colored stone.

And now I'm happy about the color - but that's how far I had to go to get something I really liked.

My experience is that you'll find an AGS G is very close to a GIA H. If the GIA H is too warm for you, you probably need to think about going to an AGS F. I know you want a bigger diamond than the one you currently have, but WF has a 4 and a half ct F VS1 ACA for around 150k. What an amazing stone!

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Without doubt. Wasn't trying to imply anything else. Just a strategy I'd discuss with WF if I were in the situation.

In answer to our approach on custom cutting, as several have correctly stated, we quote based on a narrow range of finished carat weight and we guarantee the diamond will pass all A CUT ABOVE qualifications and specifications. Since those parameters are already extremely restrictive, we cannot guarantee any higher level quality.

Color and clarity grading are both done on a continuum so each grade is in fact a very small range. And since both are judged ultimately by human graders, there is a small built-in margin of error. Even GIA stopped doing split grades many years ago.

As several posters have already suggested, we advise all customers to buy the next better grade if they know they are very color sensitive and would not be happy with something in the middle or lower part of a given grade.

 

[SimoneDi]

@Phoenix I thought you were last thinking of setting your gorgeous 5ct+ honker in Emilya? I think that it will look stunning and DS had showed a great comparison of @m-2-b solitaire to halo transformation.

 

[mrs-b]

@Phoenix I thought you were last thinking of setting your gorgeous 5ct+ honker in Emilya? I think that it will look stunning and DS had showed a great comparison of @m-2-b solitaire to halo transformation.

Agree with this. I don't think you'd want to halo a larger stone than this - but perhaps you were thinking of haloing it to get more size and would prefer to do it with just a larger diamond? I think @m-2-b's halo'd ACA is glorious - and I believe it's an I. Your H would be fabulous and look very white. I also think - and I mean this with all respect - you are perhaps expecting a greater improvement in cut than an ACA will give you. Your stone already has wonderful specs and beautiful performance; I understand if it's a 'mind-performance' thing, but I really don't think you'll see much difference (like - any) switching to an ACA, your current stone already being as well cut as it is. And I DO believe you'd need an F to get an appreciable or reliable improvement in color. So you'd want to be getting out your check book for that; I have no idea what a 5+ct ACA VS F would cost, but I'm thinking....200k+ maybe?

 

[Phoenix]

Thank you, everyone, for chiming in, and esp to @Texas Leaguer for clarifing WF's position.

It looks like I may need to wait to see if WF would ever have a near-6ct stone with a higher H colour in their inventory. I am not in a position to pay for a near-6ct in G colour, as I can't imagine how much more of a price jump that'd be!

This could be the wait of the century for THE HG. But it's ok. If it happens, great. If not, no worries.

 

[sledge]

Just a consideration, but if you are in a holding pattern why not take a little time to evaluate some of WF's stones in the color range that is affordable? Maybe pull 2-3 stones that is representative of a typical H for them and compare side by side. Maybe consider the same with some G stones.

This might give you the assurance of where you need to be colorwise. Plus seeing see super ideal bling might be a little different than your current stone.

My fiancee has a BGD Blue H VS2 with MBF. We are both color sensitive, but she is more so. While I can occasionally see tint in the stone it's not yellow as many describe. I hate that term as I feel it's just unrepresentative. Anyhow her setting reveals the majority of the pavilion of the diamond which is where tint is the strongest. The majority of the time it's a non issue and still very white. The last few days in particular I've noticed her ring and been rather impressed. Maybe because I was contemplating a color bump for her who knows. Just thought I'd share though.

Also I might add, for many it's hard to see only one color shade difference. Giving more reason to see a G and H next to each other.

 

[Phoenix]

@sledge, thank you very much for all your very helpful and informative posts. You make some excellent points. As a matter of fact, I have 2 BGD stones (my 2.3ct each studs), one is a G and one is an H - I forget which has MBF, but one is definitely whiter than the other, but only when viewed from the side; face up most of the time I can't tell them apart. They are smaller stones though, and as the 5.318ct is considerably larger, I can def see more colour. All of these are AGS btw.

I also have a 3.5ct stone, GIA-certed, H with faint fluor and I can't see any tint whatsoever.

A high-H in a larger size is def a personal preference for me.

Incidentally, @mrs-b, it is def a "mind-clean" thing for me, to want to go for an ACA. Holly performs beautifully and if she was bigger AND whiter, I'd not be tempted to upgrade at all. Since I'd like to upgrade, why not go for an ACA?

And @mrs-b and @SimoneDi, I'll give myself a bit more time to see if THE Holy Grail materialises, if not I will definitely halo my existing stone. If I do manage to upgrade to a larger stone, I'd keep it as a solitaire (but a blingy one, lol).

 

[OoohShiny]

@Phoenix - I saw this and thought of you

https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD10780

Well, unless @Dancing Fire or @cflutist get in there first


@Wink - you need to ask one of your lovely ladies to post a hand-shot of that rock!! Is it the largest CBI ever cut or am I right in thinking that Paul was cutting a (pair of?!) 10ct??

 

[carbonfan]

@Phoenix - I saw this and thought of you

https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD10780

Well, unless @Dancing Fire or @cflutist get in there first


@Wink - you need to ask one of your lovely ladies to post a hand-shot of that rock!! Is it the largest CBI ever cut or am I right in thinking that Paul was cutting a (pair of?!) 10ct??

I noticed that recently as well... that is going to be one amazing stone!!

 

[Dancing Fire]

https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD10780

Well, unless @Dancing Fire or @cflutist get in there first

If Cf loan me the $186K..