Upgrading 5.318ct to an ACA or BGD Sign - Calling M-2-B & Boom and other ACA owners

[Phoenix]

Phoenix
The best thing for you to do is to get 4 different quotes from WF/BGD or whichever vendor you decided to go with ..i.e. If the stone come back...
H VS1 will be XXX
H VS2 will be XXX
I VS1 will be XXX
I VS2 will be XXX

I would also talk with Wink about a custom cut CBI. IMO, Wink have the best custom cut policy were the customer can't lose. ..

Great suggestions, DF! Thank you.

 

[Phoenix]

Hi Phoenix! I have read much about your diamond journeys over the years (like a typical stalker) and I just want to say that I cannot see what you will end up doing for your upgrade. As you indicated, you have time and you want your next upgrade to be your forever brilliant diamond! Btw not to hijack this thread (sorry @lambogirl1111 !) but I was able to do something else with BGD and a non-super ideal stone I had. It is not a guaranteed process though. They recut my stone, it came back AGS000 and within their signature criterion. For a *small* fee (it is based on carat, color, etc.) I was able to brand the stone and I further used it for an upgrade. For me it was a great thing, I am not sure if this information will be even useful to you, but I figured, I would share. In the end *I think* (and don't quote me on that ) that is what WF will also do- take your stone, recut it to super ideal and sell it. Good luck with whatever you decide to do!

I hope you don't mind my replying to you here.

You're too funny!

Yes, I'm in no particular hurry. I previously upgrade my 3.02ct F VS2 (which has now been sold) to this current 5.318ct H VS2 AGS triple 0 diamond, which is an absolutely gorgeous ideal cut diamond. I agree that if I were to trade it in with WF or BGD that they'd most likely recut it to their tighter superideal cut ACA or BGD Signature stone. I'm sure the loss I'd be taking on this stone, were I to trade it in, would be to cover their re-cutting costs & efforts & PROFIT (I know re-cutting doesn't cost that much, hence my pain at taking such a big loss upon trading it in with these vendors - granted only WF has given me a quote, am still awaiting BGD's).

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE my 5.318ct but I wish I'd gone larger last time. AND if I were to pay a lot more $$$$$, I'd rather go for the very top cut. I guess it's a mind-clean thing for me.

I don't wish to have this 5.318ct recut for myself (I know that's not what you're suggesting). It's gorgeous just as it is. I'm just a bit miffed that WF is quoting me the price they're quoting. It doesn't cost that much to re-cut it to their (I'm sure only slightly tighter) standards, even if they do assume the risks themselves. Maybe I'll try and sell this 5.318ct myself, ha!

 

[SimoneDi]

I hope you don't mind my replying to you here.

You're too funny!

Yes, I'm in no particular hurry. I previously upgrade my 3.02ct F VS2 (which has now been sold) to this current 5.318ct H VS2 AGS triple 0 diamond, which is an absolutely gorgeous ideal cut diamond. I agree that if I were to trade it in with WF or BGD that they'd most likely recut it to their tighter superideal cut ACA or BGD Signature stone. I'm sure the loss I'd be taking on this stone, were I to trade it in, would be to cover their re-cutting costs & efforts & PROFIT (I know re-cutting doesn't cost that much, hence my pain at taking such a big loss upon trading it in with these vendors - granted only WF has given me a quote, am still awaiting BGD's).

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE my 5.318ct but I wish I'd gone larger last time. AND if I were to pay a lot more $$$$$, I'd rather go for the very top cut. I guess it's a mind-clean thing for me.

I don't wish to have this 5.318ct recut for myself (I know that's not what you're suggesting). It's gorgeous just as it is. I'm just a bit miffed that WF is quoting me the price they're quoting. It doesn't cost that much to re-cut it to their (I'm sure only slightly tighter) standards, even if they do assume the risks themselves. Maybe I'll try and sell this 5.318ct myself, ha!

Hi Phoenix! I should have posted here in the first place

I would hate for you to lose much money on this upgrade, as I agree that Holy is simply gorgeous! I bet the only thing that is slightly different is the hearts & arrows precision, this is an easy fix for either vendor.
I saw that you created a listing for it (if only I could ), but have you thought about co-signing the stone. Someone like GOG or JbG should be able to market it and get you fair price for it. I just feel that buyers in that price range may want extra benefits like a good return policy and other guarantees. Bat of luck either way!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I think she'd not come out very well on consignment. GOG has raised their fee to 20% unless they make an exception for a very expensive stone. Plus they won't sell it to their own customers as an upgrade without additional penalty (personal experience, ). WF's offer would have to be less than 80% of current value to even consider consignment. But the advantage of doing it with them is not having to wait months or years for the stone to sell.

But also Phoenix, I will just tell you that the vendors who still offer lifetime or one year buyback give 70-75% of the purchase price. So the only way to upgrade without losing money is to keep doing it through the same vendor. Whiteflash always gives you what you paid toward the next upgrade. I am very thankful that I started with them for my studs!!!

One more factor, though. Diamond prices are down since I bought my AVR in 2013. So part of the low price you are being offered is that your stone probably has declined in value since you got it. If you really want to upgrade, I'd still go ahead and do it. I'd choose WF because I have seen them have the best pricing on new stones for the last few years, plus they have had the best selection (of course, 5= ct stones aren't plentiful anywhere). I can think of 3 PSers that have above 5 ct ACAs, though.

 

[Phoenix]

Hi Phoenix! I should have posted here in the first place

I would hate for you to lose much money on this upgrade, as I agree that Holy is simply gorgeous! I bet the only thing that is slightly different is the hearts & arrows precision, this is an easy fix for either vendor.
I saw that you created a listing for it (if only I could ), but have you thought about co-signing the stone. Someone like GOG or JbG should be able to market it and get you fair price for it. I just feel that buyers in that price range may want extra benefits like a good return policy and other guarantees. Bat of luck either way!

Thank you, Simone. No worries

I agree that maybe the only thing WF or BGD would need to tweak is the H&A precision. But I dunno, I'm no cutter, haha.

I may ask Grace, yes. I have an ongoing biz relationship with her. But even so, I'd still need/ like to market it too myself.

 

[Octo2005]

Wish I had the funds to buy it from you, Holly is amazing!

Congratulations on your new project! I recently worked with SK for my new ring and he is a true artist. the photos don't even begin to show the detail and he was incredibly patient in the design face. He can certainly make any of the settings you posted and twerk them to be exactly what you are looking for.

Best of luck for a speedy resolution.

 

[OoohShiny]

@Phoenix - if you were considering lower colours and perhaps even an alternative to SuperIdeal MRBs, how about getting in touch with Yoram about this potential rock!

https://www.instagram.com/p/BpSLLYhHVpN/?taken-by=gemconcepts

 

[Phoenix]

@Phoenix - if you were considering lower colours and perhaps even an alternative to SuperIdeal MRBs, how about getting in touch with Yoram about this potential rock!

https://www.instagram.com/p/BpSLLYhHVpN/?taken-by=gemconcepts

Thank you so much for that!

Alas, I think it maybe too big, even for me {{gasp}}!

 

[Phoenix]

Does anyone know if diamond prices have gone up or down since last year?

 

[Phoenix]

@diamondseeker2006, might you know how long a custom-project with WF would take?

 

[mrs-b]

Mine took about a month from order to 'in my hand'. But they already had the rough I wanted.

 

[Phoenix]

Mine took about a month from order to 'in my hand'. But they already had the rough I wanted.

Ah ok. That's super fast!

Thanks.

 

[OoohShiny]

Does anyone know if diamond prices have gone up or down since last year?

There's a graph somewhere on here - might be on the front page!

 

[OoohShiny]

There's a graph somewhere on here - might be on the front page!

Found it, thanks to a post by @sledge!

https://www.pricescope.com/diamond-prices

 

[Phoenix]

Found it, thanks to a post by @sledge!

https://www.pricescope.com/diamond-prices

Not sure if I am reading it correctly, are there charts or graphs of prices as of today (or most recently, say in the last month or so) compared to last year and year before etc?

 

[sledge]

Not sure if I am reading it correctly, are there charts or graphs of prices as of today (or most recently, say in the last month or so) compared to last year and year before etc?

Depending what you end up with you are getting above the size PS tracks. They have a 5-5.99 carat category. For an H VS2, it appears market prices are around $24,200 per carat average.

https://www.pricescope.com/diamond-prices/round#5-5.99

If you click on the price in the table it will show you a list of stones that are available. Right now 1 from WF @ 5.22ct for $134k and 15 from virtual inventory dealers (likely XXX stones, not AGS000's, although I didn't verify). Largest I saw in available inventory of that link was 5.51 carats.

FYI, using math we can see the WF stone is trading a little higher than average at approx $25,800 per carat. Depending on the size you settle at, I'm sure the price will rise a little more as you hit other magic weight milestones.

Also if you look at the pricing trend charts here, it appears larger stones have flat lined since late 2017. This chart was updated 10/1/18.

https://www.pricescope.com/diamond-prices/diamond-prices-chart/

Lastly you might talk with @ice empress about her custom order with WF. She got a stone around the 4.5 carat mark and WF sourced the rough, did the cut, etc. As I recall the custom scenario favors the customer. You agree to a price for a guaranteed size, color and clarity. Any upgrades you keep, free of charge. If the stone doesn't meet you can reject and start over or negotiate a new price. In her case she opted for a smaller size but was pleasantly surprised to learn the stone came in bigger than her minimum guarantee -- all for the same money.

The only limitation I see is you can't guarantee YOUR specific preferred cut proportions. I asked on her behalf, lol. The guarantee is for standard ACA parameters. Although I suppose most rules can be modified if the deal is lucrative enough to cover the risks associated with the specific ask. FYI, I am not speaking about WF here but rather that has been my experience in my personal and professional life (outside of diamonds).

 

[OoohShiny]

Not sure if I am reading it correctly, are there charts or graphs of prices as of today (or most recently, say in the last month or so) compared to last year and year before etc?

They've got Price Per Carat for rounds for up to 5.99cts in a table format:
https://www.pricescope.com/diamond-prices/round#

but I think you need the Historical Diamond Prices graph that's halfway down that earlier link
https://www.pricescope.com/diamond-prices/diamond-prices-chart#

It only seems to go up to 4.99cts unfortunately, but if 5ct+ follows the same trends as 3-3.99 and 4-4.99 (which look to have been broadly similar) then prices have come down a touch recently but are still at about their highest they've been since 2008.

That said, I'm not sure if the graph accounts for inflation/the value of money - I believe that incomes haven't really changed much for most people since the 2008 crash, but inflation has still been taking place, so I think 3-5cts are technically the same price as 2011 but that price would have a lower value due to inflation (but still be just as un/affordable thanks to static wages)... I think?! lol


EDIT: cross-posted with Sledge

 

[sledge]

I forgot to add. It didn't seem to take WF long to source and cut the custom stone by @ice empress. Maybe a month or so best I recall.

Of course time being long or short is relative to the person observing from a distance vs the actual receiver of the object.

 

[sledge]

Teach you to hot link me @OoohShiny, lol.

Just kidding. Sorry for any duplication of info, obviously it wasn't intentional.

 

[mrs-b]

@sledge and @OoohShiny - you should take this show on the road. You crack me up!

 

[sledge]

@sledge and @OoohShiny - you should take this show on the road. You crack me up!

LOL, glad we could provide some smiles for you this AM. I'm willing to entertain, but I'm not sure people will pay for the price of admission.

By the way, I had crafted all that information earlier this morning shortly after waking up and on my mobile phone -- where's the emoji with the bloodshot eyes? I noticed I goofed a statement I said earlier about the historical price chart showed prices in the 4 to 99 carat (who seriously owns a 99 carat stone??) to have flat lined since late 2017.

The chart was small and I couldn't blow it up. It appears they flat lined in 2018 only and have taken a small dip as of 10/1/18. Interesting to note, current prices are about where they were had spiked to in the 2008 era.

I took the liberty to draw a straight black line across the 2016-2018 span to show a visual average. To me, it appears where diamond prices are now (according to the dip in the blown up chart) is about the middle ground for the past 2 years.

I'm not sure how you are choosing to look at this purchase. My guess is you just don't want to buy in a peak, and you'd prefer to buy in a valley but you likely aren't worried about the "investment value" of the stone as much as the beauty. And you just want to make sure you are getting a good bang for the buck despite the fact you could likely spend more on the stone.

Disclaimer:
For the those contemplating lynching me for saying investment and diamond together, notice the quote marks please. I fully understand and am not trying to indicate a diamond is an investment by the typical term. There are way better vehicles available for real investing. In this case, I'd almost say it's more like an investment protection by buying when market prices make sense.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Looks like prices have been fairly stable in the 3 carat and higher range over the last two years. I only track smaller stones (1-2.9 cts), but they have stayed below the highs of late 2011 thru early 2012, thankfully.

 

[ice empress]

I forgot to add. It didn't seem to take WF long to source and cut the custom stone by @ice empress. Maybe a month or so best I recall.

Of course time being long or short is relative to the person observing from a distance vs the actual receiver of the object.

@Phoenix are you back on the hunt for an upgrade??

@sledge is right, it didn’t take too long, though it seemed an eternity! It took 5.5 weeks from the day I placed the order to the day the stone was ready to be shipped out. That being said, they had already confirmed that the necessary rough stone was available.

I would highly recommend a custom cut stone. As @sledge mentioned, whiteflash provides you with a quote for a particular minimum cut, carat, colour, and clarity combo. If the stone falls short on any one of the parameters, you can get your funds refunded. On the other hand, if it happens to get upgraded, you get it at no additional charge!

My only cautionary advice is that you should have an insurance system in place for getting it set. If you have it set by whiteflash, their insurance continues to cover the loose stone during the setting process. However, if you send it out, you absolve them from any responsibility as soon as it gets delivered (makes sense).

In my case, Victor Canera doesn’t insure stones that are not his own. Period.

I’m Canadian and so ended up having no option other than to get insurance as a rider on my home insurance. This, however, does not cover damage during setting!! And to top it all off, jewellers mutual and chubbs cap off the limit for insurance to Canadians at $70,000 and $50,000 (Canadian dollars) respectively.

Ultimately, we will have no choice but to get the stone covered temporarily by JM for far less than its value for the setting process, and keep our fingers crossed that no damage comes to it!

 

[Phoenix]

LOL, glad we could provide some smiles for you this AM. I'm willing to entertain, but I'm not sure people will pay for the price of admission.

By the way, I had crafted all that information earlier this morning shortly after waking up and on my mobile phone -- where's the emoji with the bloodshot eyes? I noticed I goofed a statement I said earlier about the historical price chart showed prices in the 4 to 99 carat (who seriously owns a 99 carat stone??) to have flat lined since late 2017.

The chart was small and I couldn't blow it up. It appears they flat lined in 2018 only and have taken a small dip as of 10/1/18. Interesting to note, current prices are about where they were had spiked to in the 2008 era.

I took the liberty to draw a straight black line across the 2016-2018 span to show a visual average. To me, it appears where diamond prices are now (according to the dip in the blown up chart) is about the middle ground for the past 2 years.

I'm not sure how you are choosing to look at this purchase. My guess is you just don't want to buy in a peak, and you'd prefer to buy in a valley but you likely aren't worried about the "investment value" of the stone as much as the beauty. And you just want to make sure you are getting a good bang for the buck despite the fact you could likely spend more on the stone.

Disclaimer:
For the those contemplating lynching me for saying investment and diamond together, notice the quote marks please. I fully understand and am not trying to indicate a diamond is an investment by the typical term. There are way better vehicles available for real investing. In this case, I'd almost say it's more like an investment protection by buying when market prices make sense.

@sledge, thank you soooo much for posting all this very helpful information - the charts especially help tremendously.

I bought my stone when prices were a little lower than they are now - which is what I suspected. This could mean 2 things: the incoming stone would cost me more than I was hoping to spend, while the trade-in value of my stone may stay the same.

I'm now thinking perhaps I should wait a little longer. Stock markets have been getting a beating. I wonder if the recession might just be around the corner. Gosh, I hope not!! In any case, everything still seems expensive right now and it'd be horrible if I upgraded now and find diamond prices bottoming out like they did, along with everything else, post-Lehman Brothers.

It is good to know though that the custom process doesn't take that long. I don't know of course if they have the rough in the range I am looking for (5.7-5.9ct).

Thanks again for all the helpful infor.

 

[yssie]

@sledge, thank you soooo much for posting all this very helpful information - the charts especially help tremendously.

I bought my stone when prices were a little lower than they are now - which is what I suspected. This could mean 2 things: the incoming stone would cost me more than I was hoping to spend, while the trade-in value of my stone may stay the same.

I'm now thinking perhaps I should wait a little longer. Stock markets have been getting a beating. I wonder if the recession might just be around the corner. Gosh, I hope not!! In any case, everything still seems expensive right now and it'd be horrible if I upgraded now and find diamond prices bottoming out like they did, along with everything else, post-Lehman Brothers.

It is good to know though that the custom process doesn't take that long. I don't know of course if they have the rough in the range I am looking for (5.7-5.9ct).

Thanks again for all the helpful infor.

Sure have. I debate checking mine every morning

 

[Phoenix]

@ice empress, I have been following your journey and am super excited for you!! When do you expect your ring to be completed by Victor C? It is good you can get it covered, albeit partially. Alas, my insurer doesn't provide such insurance. I guess I'll worry about it as and when it comes.

Yes, I've set aside enough funds for a small upgrade (from a 5.318ct H VS2 to a 5.7-5.9ct H VS2, but only a high H). I want to avoid the huge price jump associated with a 6ct+ stone. I have no idea yet if WF can get rough that is likely to yield a stone that'd meet my requirements. Of course, a 5.9ct stone would be extremely difficult to source - I'd imagine, and even harder for WF to guarantee beforehand. I guess what WF would do, should I engage them, would be to provide me with a range and then, I'd have to keep my fingers crossed and hope the stone would come out at the higher end of the measurement estimates - like yours did.

 

[Phoenix]

Sure have. I debate checking mine every morning

I am checking them on a daily basis. I am in a buy mode, though of course I have no idea when the markets will bottom out.

I certainly do not wish for a recession to ensue though.

It's a scary time indeed.

 

[sledge]

So @Phoenix, you need to ask WF if they will guarantee a "high H color". My initial thoughts are they will go by whatever the AGS cert says, which we know is done by humans and somewhat subjective so I doubt they will be agreeable to that request.

Perhaps @Texas Leaguer can confirm?

 

[ice empress]

@ice empress, I have been following your journey and am super excited for you!! When do you expect your ring to be completed by Victor C? It is good you can get it covered, albeit partially. Alas, my insurer doesn't provide such insurance. I guess I'll worry about it as and when it comes.

Truthfully, I’m not even 100% sure that JM would cover for damages during setting, but we are hoping. It’s been a little bit of a whirlwind experience with a disappointing broker who has been less than stellar with being forthcoming, communicative, or timely. We shall see...

In any case, we are proceeding nonetheless, as there have already been needless delays.

Hence, the stone arrived in L.A. yesterday!! We will be picking it up from V.C. in 3 weeks, at the tail-end of a trip up and down the California coast. Our goal when we decided to pull the trigger on a ring but a mere few months ago was to have it ready for our one-year anniversary. Though it wasn’t planned, the timing just fell that way so we decided it would be fun to try to have it ready in time for our milestone.

On another note, I really hope you’ll pull the trigger on an upgrade!! For purely selfish reasons, I would love to follow your journey whilst ogling an absolutely magnificent stone!!! Lol

 

[sledge]

I was just re-reading this. My day got somewhat wrecked yesterday on a personal level and I lost my concentration. Anyhow, back in the saddle today.

@Phoenix I would make sure you are looking at diamond prices in a way that favors you. I am not sure what you paid for your original stone or what you were offered as trade value; however, it seems probable there is a gap of some sort.

While I am going to make the assumption you have accumulated more wealth than me, I have had the luxury (and headache) of working, being entrusted and/or friends with people of vastly different wealth levels, some within the 9-10 digit realm. One thing I've always found in common with them (at least 1st generation earners) is they put considerable weight into maximizing value of whatever they purchase or invest in.

I mention this because it's skewed how I sometimes look at things. Relating this back to your situation:

• The money spent on your existing stone is a sunk cost.
• You aren't happy with it, so you wish to change it.
• You have the funds to do so.
• You just need to find the path that maximizes your value to help you achieve the goal.
• Your market for a private sale is fairly limited I imagine but one does exist. Yet at that level the stone has to be so unique or at such a bargain to make it stand out above other choices. Or possibly someone in your social circle that knows you is a good candidate. Still, the buyer pool is limited.
• It now becomes a game of can trade in beat or match a (realistic) private sale value.
• When you factor in a client list and time (which is truly our most valuable resource) and the trade in value likely begins to look more fair.
• Now it just becomes a matter of when to pull the trigger.
• On one hand, as diamond prices soar then so does your trade-in value.
• But so do retail prices. And probably the rate at which retail rises is greater than what trade in does.
• What you really care about is trade difference. Depending what the market is doing those two values will adjust up and down creating various trade difference scenarios. You've seen actual prices and I'm speculating but it's my guess as values are on the rise, the trade difference increases because the the stone you wish to trade is less dollars than the stone you want to buy.
• In the above, assume old value was $100k trade in. Price's spike 10% so the new value is $110k. At the same time the new stone was $150k and took the same 10% hike so the new adjusted retail price is $165k.
• In the model before a price increase your trade difference was $100k - $150k, or $50k.
• After the price increase, your trade difference grew to $110k - $165k, or $55k.
• In both scenarios the $50k is simply the price adjustment to go bigger, better, etc. Does the new stone give you $50k of satisfaction and can you spend funds without disrupting life or missing other more valubale investment opportunities? If yes, then waiting on market prices is having negligible effects on the real issue but if timed perfectly may work slightly in your favor.
• The odds of you striking the market at a "perfect" time will keep you in this vicious circle forever as no time is ever perfect.
• Regardless of all the math, charts, etc all this will come down to a gut call and how you feel about the deal in front of you. All the tech stuff may give you some warm fuzzies but won't get you there by itself.