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Troy Davis Executed

AGBF

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Troy Davis was executed. Where was the President? I tried to call the White House and the Governor of Georgia's office when I learned that the Supreme Court had stopped the stay of execution, but neither was open for calls. I guess a man's life was not important enough for them to be in the office. What a travesty of justice.

Deb/AGBF
:read:
 

Kaleigh

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Deb,
I am out of touch, got a new Puppy.. I don't know who Troy Davis is. If you could fill me in I would appreciate it. I haven't had a chance to watch anything but the puppy...
 

fieryred33143

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Georgia is a state where the governor does not have legal authority to stop an execution. Neither does the President. It could have been stopped by the Board of Pardons but they denied the request.
 

sillyberry

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Purely as a point of information, a President has no power to interfere with criminal sanctions for state crimes. I suppose he could have made a statement, or something, but he had no legal authority to either pardon or issue clemency.

From the Department of Justice: http://www.justice.gov/pardon/pardon_instructions.htm

2. Federal convictions only

Under the Constitution, only federal criminal convictions, such as those adjudicated in the United States District Courts, may be pardoned by the President. In addition, the President's pardon power extends to convictions adjudicated in the Superior Court of the District of Columbia and military court-martial proceedings. However, the President cannot pardon a state criminal offense. Accordingly, if you are seeking clemency for a state criminal conviction, you should not complete and submit this petition. Instead, you should contact the Governor or other appropriate authorities of the state where you reside or where the conviction occurred (such as the state board of pardons and paroles) to determine whether any relief is available to you under state law. If you have a federal conviction, information about the conviction may be obtained from the clerk of the federal court where you were convicted.
 

lulu

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I know so many people who signed the petition to stop the execution. I can't believe it.
 

AGBF

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sillyberry|1316663955|3022655 said:
Purely as a point of information, a President has no power to interfere with criminal sanctions for state crimes. I suppose he could have made a statement, or something, but he had no legal authority to either pardon or issue clemency.
I'm not a lawyer, although, at one point, I did enroll in law school! So I can use the information on what the president can and cannot do, legally. On the other hand, sillyberry, don't you think that if the president went on national television and used it as a bully pulpit-and/or got on the phone to the people who had power to stop executions (be it members of the Georgia board of pardons or some of the Supreme Court justices)-that he could have stopped it? I happen to know for sure that he could have. But he didn't want to invest his political capital there.

Deb/AGBF
:read:
 

MissStepcut

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Is the Georgia State Board of Pardons and Paroles made of appointed members? If they have a lifetime appointment, it's possible they're insulated from political pressure (like petitions) by design.
 

AGBF

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MissStepcut|1316664533|3022666 said:
Is the Georgia State Board of Pardons and Paroles made of appointed members? If they have a lifetime appointment, it's possible they're insulated from political pressure (like petitions) by design.
No one is insulated from political opinion. An eloquent statement by President Obama would have done wonders. Everyone knows that. The entire world wanted to stop this execution.

AGBF
:read:
 

sillyberry

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AGBF|1316664422|3022662 said:
sillyberry|1316663955|3022655 said:
Purely as a point of information, a President has no power to interfere with criminal sanctions for state crimes. I suppose he could have made a statement, or something, but he had no legal authority to either pardon or issue clemency.
I'm not a lawyer, although, at one point, I did enroll in law school! So I can use the information on what the president can and cannot do, legally. On the other hand, sillyberry, don't you think that if the president went on national television and used it as a bully pulpit-and/or got on the phone to the people who had power to stop executions (be it members of Georgia board of pardons or Supreme Court justices)-that he could have stopped it? I happen to know for sure that he could have. But he didn't want to invest his political capital there.

Deb/AGBF
:read:
That he could have attempted to stop the execution or that he actually could have stopped it? I don't think either the Georgia Board of Pardons or the Supreme Court feel remotely obligated to follow the dictates of the executive branch. In my observation, they actually get a little testy when other branches try to interfere.
 

MissStepcut

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AGBF|1316664743|3022672 said:
MissStepcut|1316664533|3022666 said:
Is the Georgia State Board of Pardons and Paroles made of appointed members? If they have a lifetime appointment, it's possible they're insulated from political pressure (like petitions) by design.
No one is insulated from political opinion. An eloquent statement by President Obama would have done wonders. Everyone knows that. The entire world wanted to stop this execution.

AGBF
:read:
I neither know that nor believe that. In fact, I think their actions in this case show they are insulated from political pressure and are brave enough to defy it when they believe they're carrying out their duties to the best of their abilities, in the face of dissenting public opinion.
 

AGBF

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sillyberry|1316664790|3022674 said:
That he could have attempted to stop the execution or that he actually could have stopped it? I don't think either the Georgia Board of Pardons or the Supreme Court feel remotely obligated to follow the dictates of the executive branch. In my observation, they actually get a little testy when other branches try to interfere.
That he could have made the climate right for a pardon of Troy Davis, let alone a a stay of execution!

You are talking about the legalities, about whether the president could legally trespass on the turf of the judicial branch, etcetera. I am talking about public opinion, about the passion that Mr. Obama is capable of arousing in an audience when he speaks and the passion that he needs to evoke in people with this subject! If he can reach people on the gut level, a tidal wave of public opinion will cause change in the locals' views! All politics is local.

AGBF
:read:
 

AGBF

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MissStepcut|1316665292|3022681 said:
AGBF|1316664743|3022672 said:
MissStepcut|1316664533|3022666 said:
Is the Georgia State Board of Pardons and Paroles made of appointed members? If they have a lifetime appointment, it's possible they're insulated from political pressure (like petitions) by design.
No one is insulated from political opinion. An eloquent statement by President Obama would have done wonders. Everyone knows that. The entire world wanted to stop this execution.

AGBF
:read:
I neither know that nor believe that. In fact, I think their actions in this case show they are insulated from political pressure and are brave enough to defy it when they believe they're carrying out their duties to the best of their abilities, in the face of dissenting public opinion.
I disagree. There simply wasn't enough "political pressure" applied! Not by a long shot, there wasn't!!!

AGBF
:angryfire:
 

sillyberry

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AGBF|1316665722|3022689 said:
That he could have made the climate right for a pardon of Troy Davis, let alone a a stay of execution!

You are talking about the legalities, about whether the president could legally trespass on the turf of the judicial branch, etcetera. I am talking about public opinion, about the passion that Mr. Obama is capable of arousing in an audience when he speaks and the passion that he needs to evoke in people with this subject! If he can reach people on the gut level, a tidal wave of public opinion will cause change in the locals' views! All politics is local.

AGBF
:read:
First - no, I'm talking about Separations of Powers, which while is a legality, is also a state of mind. It's not just what branches can do vis a vis each other - it's a whole way of relating. Certain branches are supposed to be entirely separate from both other branches of government and public opinion. It's why the federal judiciary has lifetime tenure. Why states set up commissions and boards where people are not running for election and are not subject to public opinion. Insulation from public opinion is THE WHOLE POINT.

Second - have you seen the President's latest approval ratings? You seem to think he influences public opinion a whole lot more than I do.
 

MissStepcut

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Based on some quick research, it appears that the members of the board with the sole decision-making power for pardons are appointed (not elected) for nonrenewable terms. While I might not like their decision, I respect them for not buckling to pressure and carrying out their duty to NOT respond to pressure. Justice in criminal cases shouldn't be administered according to how much public outcry there is or how much sympathy can be drummed up in the media. Rather than trying to intervene in specific cases, the public should demand an end to executions. It's the only way to make sure a wrongfully convicted person is never put to death. Cherry-picking media darlings is, in my opinion, no way to administer justice.

If an organization like the one linked above had the resources to help Davis earlier, we wouldn't need to try to pressure appointed administrative officials to do what they're not supposed to do.
 

AGBF

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sillyberry|1316666340|3022698 said:
First - no, I'm talking about Separations of Powers, which while is a legality, is also a state of mind. It's not just what branches can do vis a vis each other - it's a whole way of relating. Certain branches are supposed to be entirely separate from both other branches of government and public opinion. It's why the federal judiciary has lifetime tenure.

Oh, please. Don't go all lawyerly on me and have to debate everything just for the sake of debate. You now want to discuss why there are three branches of government? Well, I don't. And I could go round for round with you if I did, because I used to teach history back before I became a social worker (which was before I became a mother)! Yes, I even have a master's degree in history and used to teach it to high school students. What, exactly, is your point about lifetime tenure as it relates to Troy Davis?

sillyberry|1316666340|3022698 said:
Second - have you seen the President's latest approval ratings? You seem to think he influences public opinion a whole lot more than I do.
Totally irrelevant. The man is at his best when he's doing something right. Give him a just cause to defend and he's bright enough to write a good speech in defense of it. He'll even write his own speech. He did go to Harvard, after all. His problem is that he's been playing footsie with Wall Street for too long. He let the middle class down. Now all that's left are the rich and the unemployed. Neither of which would be happy with him, now, would they?

AGBF
:read:
 

AGBF

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MissStepcut|1316666478|3022699 said:
Based on some quick research, it appears that the members of the board with the sole decision-making power for pardons are appointed (not elected) for nonrenewable terms. While I might not like their decision, I respect them for not buckling to pressure and carrying out their duty to NOT respond to pressure. Justice in criminal cases shouldn't be administered according to how much public outcry there is or how much sympathy can be drummed up in the media. Rather than trying to intervene in specific cases, the public should demand an end to executions. It's the only way to make sure a wrongfully convicted person is never put to death. Cherry-picking media darlings is, in my opinion, no way to administer justice.

If an organization like the one linked above had the resources to help Davis earlier, we wouldn't need to try to pressure appointed administrative officials to do what they're not supposed to do.
I am not sure I agree with the earlier part of your statement, but I agree with your conclusion. I think that the only solution to the problem is to end capital punishment.

AGBF
 

MissStepcut

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AGBF|1316667600|3022715 said:
MissStepcut|1316666478|3022699 said:
Based on some quick research, it appears that the members of the board with the sole decision-making power for pardons are appointed (not elected) for nonrenewable terms. While I might not like their decision, I respect them for not buckling to pressure and carrying out their duty to NOT respond to pressure. Justice in criminal cases shouldn't be administered according to how much public outcry there is or how much sympathy can be drummed up in the media. Rather than trying to intervene in specific cases, the public should demand an end to executions. It's the only way to make sure a wrongfully convicted person is never put to death. Cherry-picking media darlings is, in my opinion, no way to administer justice.

If an organization like the one linked above had the resources to help Davis earlier, we wouldn't need to try to pressure appointed administrative officials to do what they're not supposed to do.
And if we didn't have capital punishment, we wouldn't be such total barbarians.

AGBF
I totally support eliminating capital punishment, and have a lot of issues with our prison system (e.g., how can damning someone to known prevalent rape in prison not be considered unconstitutional? How is that not cruel and unusual punishment?) nevertheless I don't believe that popular will or the political pressure of the Federal executive is an appropriate way to deal with an unpopular state administrative finding. Not by a long shot.
 

sillyberry

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Wow.

My point is that the Georgia Board of Pardons and the Supreme Court are insulated from anything the president says - AS THEY SHOULD BE. And they're also insulated from public opinion - AS THEY SHOULD BE. Life tenure was merely an example of a system designed with that goal in mind, contrary to your wishes of a groundswell of public opinion influencing their decisions. So you can complain about a miscarriage of justice in state courts, but the proper place for that to be rectified is NOT with the president. Any president. That's what it has to do with Troy Davis. And if you want to call it debating for the sake of debating, then so be it.

And we will have to agree to disagree about how inspiring our president is. Writing his own speeches, or not.

Should he have also been out there protesting this evening's execution of Lawrence Russel Brewer, in the name of avoiding barbarianism?
 

CaprineSun

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I am seething with anger over this entire case. :angryfire:

Like everyone has been saying: I want to know how reasonable doubt got Casey Anthony off, but reasonable doubt did not stop a man from being MURDERED.

I am livid.
 

AGBF

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sillyberry|1316668321|3022723 said:
Should he have also been out there protesting this evening's execution of Lawrence Russel Brewer, in the name of avoiding barbarianism?
The "question" you asked is simply a snide remark, not a question at all. If you have anything you would really like to ask me, ask me and I will answer you honestly. As I have said here before, my parents were Quakers. As a person, I do not believe in the death penalty for anyone, whether or not he is guilty of a crime. I am against the death penalty in all cases.

My family has been in the United States for generations. Before he became a Quaker, my father fought in World War II. As an American, seeing the justice system break down and fail bothers me. As an American, seeing careless murder convictions and executions, especially when racially biased, bothers me.

Deborah
 

sillyberry

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AGBF|1316670362|3022731 said:
sillyberry|1316668321|3022723 said:
Should he have also been out there protesting this evening's execution of Lawrence Russel Brewer, in the name of avoiding barbarianism?
The "question" you asked is simply a snide remark, not a question at all. If you have anything you would really like to ask me, ask me and I will answer you honestly. As I have said here before, my parents were Quakers. As a person, I do not believe in the death penalty for anyone, whether or not he is guilty of a crime. I am against the death penalty in all cases.

My family has been in the United States for generations. Before he became a Quaker, my father fought in World War II. As an American, seeing the justice system break down and fail bothers me. As an American, seeing careless murder convictions and executions, especially when racially biased, bothers me.

Deborah
Actually, it was a question. If the president should have been involved in this case, when his office said it is inappropriate to comment on individual cases going through the designated channels, should he be speaking out against other executions? Specifically another one happening on the same day? If a president speaks out against one execution, and not another, is he then given tacit approval to the latter? I think these are important questions when it comes to the role of the president in state executions. Maybe that wasn't your larger point, but you framed your original post as one targeting the president as being callous for not interfering, so I think pushing back upon that is more than reasonable.

I'm not advocating that he should have been executed or not been executed. I don't know - I hadn't heard of Troy Davis until a few days ago, nor have I spent time researching the evidence and the procedural history. It could, in fact, be a travesty of justice and the jury system. Or maybe not. But there are people who make those decisions and I would like them insulated as designed.

And I have no idea why your family lineage is relevant and my suggestion that the president's low approval ratings might make him not in a position to be all that persuasive is not.
 

Dancing Fire

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SB...you will not win an argument over the PS liberals... :bigsmile: ..but i still love ya Deb.
 

AGBF

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sillyberry|1316671617|3022738 said:
Actually, it was a question. If the president should have been involved in this case, when his office said it is inappropriate to comment on individual cases going through the designated channels, should he be speaking out against other executions? Specifically another one happening on the same day? If a president speaks out against one execution, and not another, is he then given tacit approval to the latter? I think these are important questions when it comes to the role of the president in state executions. Maybe that wasn't your larger point, but you framed your original post as one targeting the president as being callous for not interfering, so I think pushing back upon that is more than reasonable.

I'm not advocating that he should have been executed or not been executed. I don't know - I hadn't heard of Troy Davis until a few days ago, nor have I spent time researching the evidence and the procedural history. It could, in fact, be a travesty of justice and the jury system. Or maybe not. But there are people who make those decisions and I would like them insulated as designed.

And I have no idea why your family lineage is relevant and my suggestion that the president's low approval ratings might make him not in a position to be all that persuasive is not.
Excuse me for thinking I could use a shortcut (mentioning my family's lineage) to explain a concept to you. I see that you do not do well with shortcuts and need to take the long way around. I was attempting to make the point that naturally I thought that Barack Obama should be attempting to use any moral authority he had to stay the execution of the man on death row in Texas tonight given my personal set of beliefs. However, that all Americans, regardless of their stands on the sanctity of human life, had a stake in in keeping the the judicial system fair and free from the worst flaws (such as convicting the wrong people and executing them willy nilly).

AGBF
:read:
 

Dancing Fire

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[quote="AGBF|
Totally irrelevant. The man is at his best when he's doing something right. Give him a just cause to defend and he's bright enough to write a good speech in defense of it. He'll even write his own speech. He did go to Harvard, after all. His problem is that he's been playing footsie with Wall Street for too long. He let the middle class down. Now all that's left are the rich and the unemployed. Neither of which would be happy with him, now, would they?

AGBF
:read:[/quote]
i said to my wife...both you and Mary across the street are employed by the government the only difference is if you don't go to work you will not receive a pay check at the end of the month while Mary across the street will receive her monthly check for sleeping at home doing nothing.
 

Dancing Fire

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[quote="AGBF|
Totally irrelevant. The man is at his best when he's doing something right. Give him a just cause to defend and he's bright enough to write a good speech in defense of it. He'll even write his own speech. He did go to Harvard, after all. His problem is that he's been playing footsie with Wall Street for too long. He let the middle class down. Now all that's left are the rich and the unemployed. Neither of which would be happy with him, now, would they?

AGBF
:read:[/quote]
i said to my wife...both you and Mary across the street are employed by the government the only difference is if you don't go to work you will not receive a pay check at the end of the month while Mary across the street will receive her monthly pay check for sleeping at home doing nothing.
 

yennyfire

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*Twinkle*twinkle*|1316669344|3022728 said:
I am seething with anger over this entire case. :angryfire:

Like everyone has been saying: I want to know how reasonable doubt got Casey Anthony off, but reasonable doubt did not stop a man from being MURDERED.

I am livid.
This.
 

MsP

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Dancing Fire|1316674233|3022746 said:
SB...you will not win an argument over the PS liberals... :bigsmile: ..but i still love ya Deb.
Agreed.

SB, thank you for providing insight how some of this works from a legal standpoint.
 

ksinger

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DF said: i said to my wife...both you and Mary across the street are employed by the government the only difference is if you don't go to work you will not receive a pay check at the end of the month while Mary across the street will receive her monthly pay check for sleeping at home doing nothing.[/quote]

Well, isn't that just typical now. Someone who rails against government spending while having a spouse sucking at the government teat. I can't tell you how many people I know just like that, and not a single one of them can see the schizophrenia of that position, or thinks that THEIR jobs are the one that could be considered "waste".

Enjoy it until the 30th DF....
 

AGBF

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MissPrudential|1316692094|3022808 said:
Dancing Fire|1316674233|3022746 said:
SB...you will not win an argument over the PS liberals... :bigsmile: ..but i still love ya Deb.
Agreed.

SB, thank you for providing insight how some of this works from a legal standpoint.

Yes. The liberals are certainly overboard on this issue and the legal standpoint needs more representation. Imagine worrying about the notion that an innocent man was put to death. The issue should have been merely whether the separation of powers was observed and whether it proved impossible to sway the judiciary because the members of the branch were appointed not elected (although many southern judges are elected).

AGBF
:read:
 
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