Troy Davis Executed

[ksinger]

Should he have also been out there protesting this evening's execution of Lawrence Russel Brewer, in the name of avoiding barbarianism?

The "question" you asked is simply a snide remark, not a question at all. If you have anything you would really like to ask me, ask me and I will answer you honestly. As I have said here before, my parents were Quakers. As a person, I do not believe in the death penalty for anyone, whether or not he is guilty of a crime. I am against the death penalty in all cases.

My family has been in the United States for generations. Before he became a Quaker, my father fought in World War II. As an American, seeing the justice system break down and fail bothers me. As an American, seeing careless murder convictions and executions, especially when racially biased, bothers me.

Deborah

Actually, it was a question. If the president should have been involved in this case, when his office said it is inappropriate to comment on individual cases going through the designated channels, should he be speaking out against other executions? Specifically another one happening on the same day? If a president speaks out against one execution, and not another, is he then given tacit approval to the latter? I think these are important questions when it comes to the role of the president in state executions. Maybe that wasn't your larger point, but you framed your original post as one targeting the president as being callous for not interfering, so I think pushing back upon that is more than reasonable.

I'm not advocating that he should have been executed or not been executed. I don't know - I hadn't heard of Troy Davis until a few days ago, nor have I spent time researching the evidence and the procedural history. It could, in fact, be a travesty of justice and the jury system. Or maybe not. But there are people who make those decisions and I would like them insulated as designed.

And I have no idea why your family lineage is relevant and my suggestion that the president's low approval ratings might make him not in a position to be all that persuasive is not.

I am with Sillyberry on this one. I'm not aware of precedent of a sitting president weighing in publicly on a state execution case, but I can't help think that it would be a bad thing to start. I'm not at all comfortable with the court of public opinion driving the justice system in this country. Given the fickleness of mobs, it could just as easily be crying for a lynching.

That said, I confess I have not followed the case. But next time I talk to my aunt and uncle - both intimately involved in the Fernando Bermudez case - I will ask them about the actual legalities. I'm sure they will have a better grasp on it than I. God knows my uncle will wax....um...eloquent...on it fore.v.e.r. if I encourage him.

 

[ame]

Our justice system is broken, a joke.

 

[MonkeyPie]

I'm curious, then, what you (the collective you) propose they do with people that are basically going to live out their lives in prison?

I don't know if I agree or not with capital punishment, but I DO disagree with the massive money suck that prisons are. A life sentence is quite a chunk of cash for someone that is not contributing to society in any way.

 

[fieryred33143]

SB, thank you for providing insight how some of this works from a legal standpoint.

Yes this. Thank you it was a good read. It's easy to get wrapped up in the emotional aspect and forget there is a process that must be followed for everyone. Thanks for explaining

 

[mrscushion]

I wish we could stick to constructive exchanges and avoid poisonously passive aggressive language in these topics, which are otherwise so interesting.

I also worry that in this case someone wrongly convicted may have been executed. I think the death penalty is wrong, period and the way to ensure that cases like the Troy Davis one don't happen again is to get rid of the death penalty. I think the president should not get on the bully pulpit to undo decisions made by judges and juries.

 

[AGBF]

It's easy to get wrapped up in the emotional aspect and forget there is a process that must be followed for everyone.

I very, very strongly disagree. In my opinion, if it was "easy" to get wrapped up in the emotional aspect, more people would have felt the pain of a man who was trapped by his race and his poverty into spending from 1989 until 2011 in prison, most of it on death row, coming close to execution several times (I believe it was four). They would empathize with his frustration at hearing the witnesses against him recant, but having the courts say that procedural rules forbade them to rehear testimony. They would put themselves in his skin when he refused a last meal he knew he couldn't possible eat, and would probably vomit. Troy Davis, in the last moments before he was executed, was man enough to face the men of the family of the off-duty police officer he was accused of having shot and to tell them, once again, that he had not had a gun that day, that he was innocent.

The "process" that is followed is most definitely not the same for everyone, nor is it the same in every state. In some states, it is legal for counsel to be asleep while representing someone on death row. Black people are put to death in far greater proportion than white people. The death penalty is not administered at all fairly. That is not my major problem with it, mine is philosophical, but when I hear someone say it is fair (i.e. that there is a proess that "must be followed by everyone" as if that happened in the real world) and it is grossly unfair, it makes me want to leap onto a chair and howl!

AGBF

 

[iheartscience]

It's easy to get wrapped up in the emotional aspect and forget there is a process that must be followed for everyone.

I very, very strongly disagree. In my opinion, if it was "easy" to get wrapped up in the emotional aspect, more people would have felt the pain of a man who was trapped by his race and his poverty into spending from 1989 until 2011 in prison, most of it on death row, coming close to execution several times (I believe it was four). They would empathize with his frustration at hearing the witnesses against him recant, but having the courts say that procedural rules forbade them to rehear testimony. They would put themselves in his skin when he refused a last meal he knew he couldn't possible eat, and would probably vomit. Troy Davis, in the last moments before he was executed, was man enough to face the men of the family of the off-duty police officer he was accused of having shot and to tell them, once again, that he had not had a gun that day, that he was innocent.

The "process" that is followed is most definitely not the same for everyone, nor is it the same in every state. In some states, it is legal for counsel to be asleep while representing someone on death row. Black people are put to death in far greater proportion than white people. The death penalty is not administered at all fairly. That is not my major problem with it, mine is philosophical, but when I hear someone say it is fair (i.e. that there is a proess that "must be followed by everyone" as if that happened in the real world) and it is grossly unfair, it makes me want to leap onto a chair and howl!

AGBF

Ditto all of this. Anyone paying attention can see how absurdly UNFAIR the "process" and "system" is. There are too many examples of death row inmates being exonerated either before or after their executions. The most disturbing cases are the ones like Troy Davis', where further evidence has come out, but judges and governors still won't consider allowing a new trial or appeal.

Gov. Rick Perry put Cameron Todd Willingham to death in 2004, despite HUGE amounts of evidence that he was wrongfully convicted and was actually innocent. And if that wasn't enough, he then he did his best to cover it up by squashing a commission set up to investigate the faulty arson investigation. Brief summary here: http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2011/06/25/cameron_todd_willingham_rick_perry.

The bloodlust of Americans is truly disturbing.

 

[Miss Sparkly]

It's easy to get wrapped up in the emotional aspect and forget there is a process that must be followed for everyone.

I very, very strongly disagree. In my opinion, if it was "easy" to get wrapped up in the emotional aspect, more people would have felt the pain of a man who was trapped by his race and his poverty into spending from 1989 until 2011 in prison, most of it on death row, coming close to execution several times (I believe it was four). They would empathize with his frustration at hearing the witnesses against him recant, but having the courts say that procedural rules forbade them to rehear testimony. They would put themselves in his skin when he refused a last meal he knew he couldn't possible eat, and would probably vomit. Troy Davis, in the last moments before he was executed, was man enough to face the men of the family of the off-duty police officer he was accused of having shot and to tell them, once again, that he had not had a gun that day, that he was innocent.

The "process" that is followed is most definitely not the same for everyone, nor is it the same in every state. In some states, it is legal for counsel to be asleep while representing someone on death row. Black people are put to death in far greater proportion than white people. The death penalty is not administered at all fairly. That is not my major problem with it, mine is philosophical, but when I hear someone say it is fair (i.e. that there is a proess that "must be followed by everyone" as if that happened in the real world) and it is grossly unfair, it makes me want to leap onto a chair and howl!

AGBF

I have only done a few quick reads on the subject as I haven't been following it and was surprised to find out that his original jury had several black members on it, a majority in fact. That does not appear (at least originally) to be a victim of his race. It was also implied earlier that Obama would stand up for him, again because of his race. Why? Being the same color as another who is states away does not make one more connected to another. It just means they are the same color.

 

[chemgirl]

I wonder if the public outcry actually hindered his ability to be treated fairly. There was a highly publicized case here decades ago where possible exculpatory evidence, petitions for retrial, and other leads (to the real killer I might add) were ignored by law enforcement and those in the legal system. An inquiry, after the conviction was finally overturned, found that law enforcement resented the accused's family for creating a media frenzy and that resentment led to them ignoring new evidence. At one point, the real killer's wife went to police and said she believed her husband had committed the crime. He was a convicted rapist and lived on the street where the body was found, but the police never investigated him. In that case, there was DNA evidence that was eventually used to clear the man accused. The inquiry suggested that there be a separate government entity to investigate wrongful convictions to eliminate this conflict of interest.

I can't help but wonder if something similar has taken place with Troy Davis's appeal process.

 

[movie zombie]

[quote="AGBF|1316698228|3022859The "process" that is followed is most definitely not the same for everyone, nor is it the same in every state. In some states, it is legal for counsel to be asleep while representing someone on death row. Black people are put to death in far greater proportion than white people. The death penalty is not administered at all fairly. That is not my major problem with it, mine is philosophical, but when I hear someone say it is fair (i.e. that there is a proess that "must be followed by everyone" as if that happened in the real world) and it is grossly unfair, it makes me want to leap onto a chair and howl!

AGBF
[/quote]


i agree and i'm howling with you, Deb. i am very depressed and have lost what was left [which wasn't much] of my faith in this country having any claim to a moral high road.

taken from another forum i participate on regarding support for the death penalty: "As long you're prepared for that innocent man to be yourself, that's a fair point of view."

 

[Mayk]

I did not follow this case/story...I don't know the details. But my thoughts about our President and what came to mind when I read the original post.... "President Obams was out on a golfing vacation when our country was downgraded....and he did t return to office until his vacation was over... I'm thinking this possible travesty (if he was wrongly accused) isn't going to bring about a statement from him..." maybe my bad... But just don't see it happeng. end of my first thought....

 

[Laila619]

and the way to ensure that cases like the Troy Davis one don't happen again is to get rid of the death penalty.

It doesn't need to be an all or nothing deal.

What about death penalty only in heinous cases where there is actual DNA/irrefutable evidence? I understand that in this case, there was really zero evidence apart from very shaky 'eyewitness' testimony. Very tragic.

 

[MissStepcut]

It's not shown that Troy Davis was wrongly accused or innocent, so I don't know why some people ITT are assuming that. Some of the witnesses have recanted their statements. A "wrongful conviction" is not the same as innocence. Recanting witnesses is not the same as proving innocence. The exposure of new evidence doesn't make someone innocent, even if his legal team did a good job convincing the public it was "game changing." He got a second chance to plead his case, and the Court determined it was unconvincing.

There are MANY OTHER people who have not yet gotten the chances to try to prove their innocence like Davis did, and have evidence of their innocence that is just as strong, if not stronger, than Davis'. I'm going to throw out one more plug for the organization I volunteer for that helps people get out of prison and get their lives back when they've been wrongfully convicted: http://www.law.northwestern.edu/wrongfulconvictions/contribute/donate.html

 

[vintagelover229]

I'm not saying if he was guilty/innocent but if he was it's a cryin shame they didn't do anything to stop it.


However from my understanding they had many more than 10 witnesses when it happened (something like 30) and they only needed 10 of them for the trial, of which quite a few recanted their eye witness account. I also read that they found shell casings that were tied to a prior crime that he was involved in. I also read that there was evidence thrown out because it was obtained before they had a warrant-it was a shirt with the cops blood on it. Now I'm not sure if this info is accurate or not.

I'm against any form of killing any ways. That's not to say that I think we should be paying all this $$ to keep them in prison for life-I really am not sure of the best solution all the way around.

 

[hisdiamondgirl]

I'm curious, then, what you (the collective you) propose they do with people that are basically going to live out their lives in prison?

I don't know if I agree or not with capital punishment, but I DO disagree with the massive money suck that prisons are. A life sentence is quite a chunk of cash for someone that is not contributing to society in any way.

The costs associated with a capital trial and keeping someone on death row are substantially higher than the costs associated with life imprisonment. For example, the cost to maintain the present California capital penalty system is in the range of $137 to $237 million dollars per year, whereas the cost to maintain a system which imposes a maximum penalty of life imprisonment has been estimated at $11.5 million. (Figures from the California Commission on the Fair Administration of Justice).

So the real money suck here is actually state-sponsored murder.

 

[ksinger]

It's not shown that Troy Davis was wrongly accused or innocent, so I don't know why some people ITT are assuming that. Some of the witnesses have recanted their statements. A "wrongful conviction" is not the same as innocence. Recanting witnesses is not the same as proving innocence. The exposure of new evidence doesn't make someone innocent, even if his legal team did a good job convincing the public it was "game changing." He got a second chance to plead his case, and the Court determined it was unconvincing.

There are MANY OTHER people who have not yet gotten the chances to try to prove their innocence like Davis did, and have evidence of their innocence that is just as strong, if not stronger, than Davis'. I'm going to throw out one more plug for the organization I volunteer for that helps people get out of prison and get their lives back when they've been wrongfully convicted: http://www.law.northwestern.edu/wrongfulconvictions/contribute/donate.html

And this,

http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/Troy_Davis_Executed_in_Georgia_Despite_Substantial_Evidence_Pointing_to_Innocence.php

...and an offshoot, closer to home (if home is Jersey)..

http://law.shu.edu/ProgramsCenters/PublicIntGovServ/ExonerationProject/about.cfm

 

[ruby59]

He was not innocent. Davis was part of the criminal gang that was robbing a homeless man. One of the gang shot the cop. He is therefore guilty. This guy was not a saint or innocent bystander.

For those of you who are against the death penalty for any reason, Davis was not the only person who was executed last night. Remember that white supremasist who dragged that black man behind his truck? Do you feel he should have been spared as well?

Davis was given a rare opportunity last year to prove his innocence.

Where is the compassion for the innocent people whose lives were ruined by these two men?

 

[MissStepcut]

He was not innocent. Davis was part of the criminal gang that was robbing a homeless man. One of the gang shot the cop. He is therefore guilty. This guy was not a saint or innocent bystander.

For those of you who are against the death penalty for any reason, Davis was not the only person who was executed last night. Remember that white supremasist who dragged that black man behind his truck? Do you feel he should have been spared as well?

Davis was given a rare opportunity last year to prove his innocence.

Where is the compassion for the innocent people whose lives were ruined by these two men?

Yes, I believe that a life prison sentence is sufficient, even for sociopathic white supremacists. I do not, personally, support the death sentence for anyone.

 

[MissStepcut]

It's not shown that Troy Davis was wrongly accused or innocent, so I don't know why some people ITT are assuming that. Some of the witnesses have recanted their statements. A "wrongful conviction" is not the same as innocence. Recanting witnesses is not the same as proving innocence. The exposure of new evidence doesn't make someone innocent, even if his legal team did a good job convincing the public it was "game changing." He got a second chance to plead his case, and the Court determined it was unconvincing.

There are MANY OTHER people who have not yet gotten the chances to try to prove their innocence like Davis did, and have evidence of their innocence that is just as strong, if not stronger, than Davis'. I'm going to throw out one more plug for the organization I volunteer for that helps people get out of prison and get their lives back when they've been wrongfully convicted: http://www.law.northwestern.edu/wrongfulconvictions/contribute/donate.html

And this,

http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/Troy_Davis_Executed_in_Georgia_Despite_Substantial_Evidence_Pointing_to_Innocence.php

...and an offshoot, closer to home (if home is Jersey)..

http://law.shu.edu/ProgramsCenters/PublicIntGovServ/ExonerationProject/about.cfm

Thank you, ksinger. There are lots of ways to get involved and support the cause, if you believe in it. I hope the many people who were outraged by the Troy Davis case put their money and time where their mouth is and support the organizations that are making real change in our criminal legal system: Illinois put a moratorium on the death penalty due to the overturned convictions my law school's Center for Wrongful Convictions brought about.

 

[TooPatient]

He was not innocent. Davis was part of the criminal gang that was robbing a homeless man. One of the gang shot the cop. He is therefore guilty. This guy was not a saint or innocent bystander.

For those of you who are against the death penalty for any reason, Davis was not the only person who was executed last night. Remember that white supremasist who dragged that black man behind his truck? Do you feel he should have been spared as well?

Davis was given a rare opportunity last year to prove his innocence.

Where is the compassion for the innocent people whose lives were ruined by these two men?

Ruby -- I've typed and then not submitted multiple responses to this thread. You really hit it with the bold part. This is so often lost.

SB -- Thank you for posting the legal information.

 

[hisdiamondgirl]

He was not innocent. Davis was part of the criminal gang that was robbing a homeless man. One of the gang shot the cop. He is therefore guilty. This guy was not a saint or innocent bystander.

For those of you who are against the death penalty for any reason, Davis was not the only person who was executed last night. Remember that white supremasist who dragged that black man behind his truck? Do you feel he should have been spared as well?

Davis was given a rare opportunity last year to prove his innocence.

Where is the compassion for the innocent people whose lives were ruined by these two men?

Yes, I believe that a life prison sentence is sufficient, even for sociopathic white supremacists. I do not, personally, support the death sentence for anyone.

I agree, and frankly am offended by the insinuation that you cannot be against the death penalty and have compassion for the victims or the victims' families at the same time... I have compassion for the victims and their families but I also have compassion for the families of the accused and for humanity in general.

The death penalty serves one purpose: revenge. It is not a deterrent and it does not save the state any money...

 

[Dancing Fire]

DF said: i said to my wife...both you and Mary across the street are employed by the government the only difference is if you don't go to work you will not receive a pay check at the end of the month while Mary across the street will receive her monthly pay check for sleeping at home doing nothing.

Well, isn't that just typical now. Someone who rails against government spending while having a spouse sucking at the government teat. I can't tell you how many people I know just like that, and not a single one of them can see the schizophrenia of that position, or thinks that THEIR jobs are the one that could be considered "waste".

Enjoy it until the 30th DF....[/quote]
the only difference is...she have to earn her pay check.

 

[ruby59]

He was not innocent. Davis was part of the criminal gang that was robbing a homeless man. One of the gang shot the cop. He is therefore guilty. This guy was not a saint or innocent bystander.

For those of you who are against the death penalty for any reason, Davis was not the only person who was executed last night. Remember that white supremasist who dragged that black man behind his truck? Do you feel he should have been spared as well?

Davis was given a rare opportunity last year to prove his innocence.

Where is the compassion for the innocent people whose lives were ruined by these two men?

Yes, I believe that a life prison sentence is sufficient, even for sociopathic white supremacists. I do not, personally, support the death sentence for anyone.

I agree, and frankly am offended by the insinuation that you cannot be against the death penalty and have compassion for the victims or the victims' families at the same time... I have compassion for the victims and their families but I also have compassion for the families of the accused and for humanity in general. The death penalty serves one purpose: revenge. It is not a deterrent and it does not save the state any money...

To address the highlighted part, when I asked "where is the compassion" I was referring to this thread and the fact that in almost 50 replies, no one had mentioned the family of the police officer who was shot and killed. I was not implying that in the general population one was exclusive of the other and that those who opposed the death penalty could not have compassion for the famiy as well.

 

[Dancing Fire]

I'm curious, then, what you (the collective you) propose they do with people that are basically going to live out their lives in prison?

I don't know if I agree or not with capital punishment, but I DO disagree with the massive money suck that prisons are. A life sentence is quite a chunk of cash for someone that is not contributing to society in any way.

they all should be executed after 3 yrs in prison.

 

[Dancing Fire]

He was not innocent. Davis was part of the criminal gang that was robbing a homeless man. One of the gang shot the cop. He is therefore guilty. This guy was not a saint or innocent bystander.

For those of you who are against the death penalty for any reason, Davis was not the only person who was executed last night. Remember that white supremasist who dragged that black man behind his truck? Do you feel he should have been spared as well?

Davis was given a rare opportunity last year to prove his innocence.

Where is the compassion for the innocent people whose lives were ruined by these two men?

THIS

 

[MissStepcut]

A tiny minority of the people in prison are there for murder. The majority are non-violent offenders. Our prison system could use a massive overhaul: instead of focusing on keeping people in cages, we should be trying to help as many as possible become productive members of society who can successfully be re-integrated. Unfortunately, I see a backslide right now: privatized prisons with a focus on satisfying prison employee unions. No one seems to want to pick up the cause of the convicted criminal (including me; I would rather make money with my law degree than be vilified for trying to help people who have committed crimes).

 

[Laila619]

He was not innocent. Davis was part of the criminal gang that was robbing a homeless man. One of the gang shot the cop. He is therefore guilty. This guy was not a saint or innocent bystander.

For those of you who are against the death penalty for any reason, Davis was not the only person who was executed last night. Remember that white supremasist who dragged that black man behind his truck? Do you feel he should have been spared as well?

Davis was given a rare opportunity last year to prove his innocence.

Where is the compassion for the innocent people whose lives were ruined by these two men?

I agree with you ruby, but you won't get much support here unfortunately...from past threads, most PSers are anti-death penalty.

 

[dragonfly411]

I didn't follow this case, but here are my thoughts based on what little I read here.

We've already gathered that Obama isn't the most responsible President, given past actions. Nothing new.

If the man was innocent of the physical act of murder, it SUCKS that nothing was done. If he was a member of a group that caused the murder, then he is not innocent, but he is not guilty of murder, so he doesn't deserve something as strong as the death penalty.

I believe capital punishment should be reserved for those who have no proper view of humanity, compassion and pity. Someone like the man who drug another behind his truck, or Charles Manson, or Danny Rollins.... these are not people who should be able to return to any normal kind of life. They shouldn't be able to to enjoy sunlight, or jokes, or games, or a warm shower after a long day. They should find no comfort, since they allowed none. That is just how I feel. Did this man deserve that? I doubt it. I don't believe he was heartless, ruthless, or cold. I think he was in the wrong place at the wrong time doing the wrong thing. Which is a pity.

 

[TooPatient]

He was not innocent. Davis was part of the criminal gang that was robbing a homeless man. One of the gang shot the cop. He is therefore guilty. This guy was not a saint or innocent bystander.

For those of you who are against the death penalty for any reason, Davis was not the only person who was executed last night. Remember that white supremasist who dragged that black man behind his truck? Do you feel he should have been spared as well?

Davis was given a rare opportunity last year to prove his innocence.

Where is the compassion for the innocent people whose lives were ruined by these two men?

I agree with you ruby, but you won't get much support here unfortunately...from past threads, most PSers are anti-death penalty.

Hard to say. Probably a lot more support it than will ever admit it.

 

[ruby59]

He was not innocent. Davis was part of the criminal gang that was robbing a homeless man. One of the gang shot the cop. He is therefore guilty. This guy was not a saint or innocent bystander.

For those of you who are against the death penalty for any reason, Davis was not the only person who was executed last night. Remember that white supremasist who dragged that black man behind his truck? Do you feel he should have been spared as well?

Davis was given a rare opportunity last year to prove his innocence.

Where is the compassion for the innocent people whose lives were ruined by these two men?

THIS

Dancing Fire, I am sorry but I do not understand your reply to my post.