Troy Davis Executed

[sillyberry]

Hey, whoever mentioned Godwin's law finally got their wish!

Yeah, I thought about saying something, but was too wary of the great cosmic Wrath of Godwin.

Kind of, but Godwin's Law really requires that someone or something be compared to the Nazis or Hitler. The reference was just to the idea that morality is in the eye of the beholder so I still don't think we're there, since no one has compared the death penalty to the Holocaust or claimed Georgia's Board of Appeals is practicing eugenics . But I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

 

[beebrisk]

I have never bought into the myth that poverty creates crime. It is merely used as an excuse to commit crime.

An entire generation of poor minorities came to this country at the turn of the century and managed to live good lives for the most part.

It's the breakdown of family, values and a "moral center" that causes one to destroy his own community with little regard for the consequences. If no one teaches a child right from wrong, the wrong thing will inevitably be done.

Being financially solvent does not make one "moral" any more than financial devastation causes immorality. If that were the case, we'd never see the likes of a Bernie Madoff. Poverty is not a legitimate excuse to steal or take the life of another. There's just no correlation between what a person has (or doesn't have) in their wallet and the desire and justification to rape or kill. Ask anyone who started out in dire, seemingly hopeless circumstances and have gone on to live successful lives as productive (rather than destructive) members of society. It's all about character, not about money.

I've read the arguments and seen the data on both sides of the issue so it's unlikely anyone here will convince me otherwise. And, of course I know I'll be chastised for my very "un PC" opinion.

 

[Dancing Fire]

I have never bought into the myth that poverty creates crime. It is merely used as an excuse to commit crime.

An entire generation of poor minorities came to this country at the turn of the century and managed to live good lives for the most part.

yep!. a good example would be my grandfather who immigrated to this county during the great depression but he work hard to earn every dollars then eventually he saved enough money to open his own business in the 50's.

our government don't understand that "entitlements" will only keep people in poverty for a much longer period of time then necessary.

 

[AGBF]

I have never bought into the myth that poverty creates crime. It is merely used as an excuse to commit crime.

I've read the arguments and seen the data on both sides of the issue so it's unlikely anyone here will convince me otherwise. And, of course I know I'll be chastised for my very "un PC" opinion.

beebrisk, you wrote both of the above statements. First you state as a fact that it is a myth that poverty creates crime. Then you go on to say that you have read arguments on both sides of the issue, but know you will be chastised for your opinion.

The way I see it is that you have every right to your opinion, but when you start to call your opinion a fact in the opening sentence of a post without backing it up, you don't have a leg to stand on and are just crying out for people to start objecting.

AGBF

 

[beebrisk]

Read it again...Never stated it was "fact". I said I believe it to be a myth and an excuse. My opinion is based on what I believe is true, in the same way you believe it to be untrue.

Not trying to incite anything or provoke an argument. I just happen to disagree with you and the sources you site, that's all.

 

[UnluckyTwin]

I have never bought into the myth that poverty creates crime. It is merely used as an excuse to commit crime.

An entire generation of poor minorities came to this country at the turn of the century and managed to live good lives for the most part.

It's the breakdown of family, values and a "moral center" that causes one to destroy his own community with little regard for the consequences. If no one teaches a child right from wrong, the wrong thing will inevitably be done.

Being financially solvent does not make one "moral" any more than financial devastation causes immorality. If that were the case, we'd never see the likes of a Bernie Madoff. Poverty is not a legitimate excuse to steal or take the life of another. There's just no correlation between what a person has (or doesn't have) in their wallet and the desire and justification to rape or kill. Ask anyone who started out in dire, seemingly hopeless circumstances and have gone on to live successful lives as productive (rather than destructive) members of society. It's all about character, not about money.

I've read the arguments and seen the data on both sides of the issue so it's unlikely anyone here will convince me otherwise. And, of course I know I'll be chastised for my very "un PC" opinion.

Except there actually is a statistical correlation between poverty and crime.

ETA: As well as a statistical correlation between poverty and the likelihood of living in a neighborhood patrolled by cops (meaning more likely to get caught than those who are rich and committing crimes), between poverty and the ability to afford a good lawyer, etc....

 

[dragonfly411]

Unlucky - Yes there may be a correlation between poverty and general crime, but the point being made is there isn't a justifiable correlation between poverty and rape/kill.

 

[risingsun]

This should go without saying, but let's remember that correlation is not causation. If you study a homogenous population, the correlation will be much higher for crimes as well as other factors.

 

[AGBF]

Unlucky - Yes there may be a correlation between poverty and general crime, but the point being made is there isn't a justifiable correlation between poverty and rape/kill.

Unlucky Twin doesn't need any help from me, but I want to point out that this thread is actually not about raping and killing. It is about the execution of Troy Davis, who was not accused of rape. Moreover, the sentence to which I was taking exception when I started this particular discussion within the thread was beebrisk's assertion that, "poverty does not create crime". I believe Unlucky Twin was right on target when she brought the discussion back to societal issues and the issue of the fairness of the death penalty.

AGBF

 

[dragonfly411]

Unlucky - Yes there may be a correlation between poverty and general crime, but the point being made is there isn't a justifiable correlation between poverty and rape/kill.

Unlucky Twin doesn't need any help from me, but I want to point out that this thread is actually not about raping and killing. It is about the execution of Troy Davis, who was not accused of rape. Moreover, the sentence to which I was taking exception when I started this particular discussion within the thread was beebrisk's assertion that, "poverty does not create crime". I believe Unlucky Twin was right on target when she brought the discussion back to societal issues and the issue of the fairness of the death penalty.

AGBF

AGBF - I was mostly pointing out that one discrepancy based on the post that was originally replied to. I didn't mean it as a way to veer off again, or to dispute where this thread originated, and I apologize if it came off as such!

Yesterday a man was put to death here in FL for killing a police officer. In his case I believe there was absolutely no doubt he had done it. To me that is where the thin line rests. I believe that for the death penalty to be enforced, we have to know 100% without a doubt that the person committed the crime, that they had the mental capacity to commit the crime and know what they were doing, and that they truly didn't have care or respect for the life, and suffering of other human beings. I'm not sure if the man above falls into the last category or not, but those are what I feel are the criteria. IF a person can maim/rape/mutilate and cold heartedly kill someone, understand what they are doing, and care so little that they continue to do so, I feel "Why do they get to keep living, when they took away the life/lives that were not theirs to take." Mind you, I'd also be totally for the idea of sticking them in a room, with minimal food, and pictorial reminders of their crimes for the rest of their existence as well, but that would probably be deemed cruel and unusual, and I"m sorry if it comes off that way, but I feel there should be more punishment than life behind walls where they still get to eat 3 meals, see sunlight, read books, and express their thoughts somewhat freely.

 

[MissStepcut]

Dragonfly, the problem with your "line" is that we're NEVER supposed to convict anyone when there's a doubt; every crime is held to the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard. And yet, that standard fails us.

 

[dragonfly411]

Missstep - I agree, and if someone has been convicted, but a doubt is raised later, it needs to be investigated. That was sort of my point.

 

[AGBF]

Missstep - I agree, and if someone has been convicted, but a doubt is raised later, it needs to be investigated. That was sort of my point.

Once a person has been executed, it's too late to go back and apologize to him for having gotten it wrong. And this has happened many times in the United States.

And this site has some chilling statistics for anyone who cares that only the actual perpetrator of a heinous crime be executed for it. Because many other men have come within a hair's breadth of being executed for crimes-including rapes and murders-they were later exonerated of having committed.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-and-death-penalty

AGBF