Teaser pics of red spinels available!

[LD]

Yes there are some cultural differences and colour preferences and these will determine the market rate in those countries but I don't believe it affects the price in others too much. Exceptions to the rule are when the gemstone (good specimens) are becoming hard to purchase i.e. Paraiba Tourmaline - I believe there was a huge market in them for Japan and gems were being sold for high amounts.

 

[lelser]

...
It is not about rods and cones. It is about full disclosure.

It's really about both. I have excellent colour vision and if there's any question in my mind, get a second opinion. How a client perceives that colour is very personal and although I can disclose as fully as possible, the rubber meets the road when the client sees the gem.

Sometimes - especially on birefringent gems - the cut can influence the interplay of colours from the different axis. One person might notice the blue more than the green on a tourmaline. It's not so much the analytical calculation of how MUCH blue versus green, but the impact it makes to an individual.

Where you live makes a difference. I often buy at the Equator, where the normal daylight colour is quite different than my Vancouver home daylight. I try to buy in consistent light, but if I ship a gem to someone in Singapore, for example, what she sees will be altered by the effect of the light there. Her view of the gem will not be the same as the client in Michigan.

Barring deliberate attempts to distort or falsify, I think it's important to treat selecting vendors as one does taking restaurant or clothing recommendations. I have dear friends who are wonderful people, but when they say "this place was great!" I know they mean it, and I'll hate it. They aren't lying, they just like different things and have a different idea of what an excellent evening out is. When you find vendors who's descriptions match your desires, that's ideal.

Cheers,

Lisa
www.lisaelser.com
www.greengemfoundation.com

 

[Kismet]

This thread made me take a hard look at my spinels. My Richard Homer red spinel looks true red to me. My GemFix pink mahenge spinel looks more orange-pink than true pink. I still love the color though.

 

[T L]

My post with the color test actually was a bit about rods and cones and was meant to be a little light-heated. It’s a fun exercise and very easy. If you haven’t tried it yet it might be a real “eye opener.”

I also agree about full disclosure, 100%. The more information a consumer has the better. Full disclosure reduces surprises and disappointments and helps pave the way to the trouble free acquisition of a cherished gem.

I have a question for all the color experts here though. How important are cultural preferences to specific colors in determining price? I’m sure the Pricescope community is made up of many members from many different cultures. I think it’s interesting, and actually important to think about this in terms of personal choice. Are cultural color preferences important in determining industry standards – or visa versa? Are the industry standards determined in New York, Idar-Oberstein or Hong-Kong? Certainly it’s not all about marketing. I’m quite curious what others think about this here.

I also think this is important information a consumer could use to advantage.

Kind Regards!

Jeffrey Hunt

The only thing I can say about culture is that Americans only know four colors - red, green, blue and purple (emerald, ruby, sapphire/aqua/blue topaz and amethyst), and they have no idea what else is out there, so they buy diamonds by the hoards. The Japanese are quite the opposite. That's why a lot of vendors target the Japanese for their prime exotic goods.

 

[Arkteia]

Culturally, Russians are very different from Americans. While even a wealthy American would be proud to strike a good bargain, for a Russian to buy a diamond for his fiancee below the market price would be a shame. It went into jokes ("How much did you pay for your diamond? 50K? Are you crazy, they sell it at twice the price at the next store!").

In Russia diamonds are very popular, and even poor quality diamonds command high prices. To add to it, they have European system of grading which is confusing to me. Of colored stones, emeralds and sapphires are very well-known. Of cheaper stones, amethysts, turquoise, malachite and charoite. Garnets of all types are available, but little known except for tsavorites. Pearls seem to be fashonable and sought after. Wealthy, mostly, buy diamonds overseas, and NY jewelers are trusted. (I am not taking this info out of air).

No one has heard of spinel. My friend thought it was a hybrid of spinach and colrabi.

 

[Jeffrey Hunt]

Crasru

Those are the funniest jokes I've heard in a while! Thanks! Very very funny.

Jeffrey Hunt

 

[Arkteia]

OK I decided to make and post some photos of the spinel in the evening.

This is Solux light. Bright light, dimmer and in shade. You see how the color changes.

 

[Arkteia]

I took some pictures under Otts light, with strong blue colors in it, and here is one of my photos

 

[Arkteia]

And some photos under my office light; do not look at the lights, look at the color of my other stones; some of you have seen them before so you may guestimate the color...

 

[T L]

Crasru,
These are very educational pictures. I don't think many people are aware at the dramatic color shifts that some Mahenge spinels can have. For me, I would think this would be important in determining their value, but it doesn't seem that many are discounted due to the amount of color shift. See how pink your sapphire stays in artificial light? I think that is important.

 

[Arkteia]

So... daylight photos were taken yesterday at no sun, hence no orange, and the stone looked pink (it is more orange in real life, though). Solux bright light is very flattering, and the stone looks pink. Ruby and pink sapphire hold their colors in real life conditions, while the stone turns orange. As I have said, it is an issue of preference and some of my friends liked it. Also, it is pretty saturated.

As to rods and cones, my color sensitivity improves much when I wear eyeglasses. Since I have no cataracts and I not know if change in color sensitivity has to do with triple refraction or simply my presbyopia with focus behind the retina affects the amount of light reaching cones and rods. If I am right, not wearing eyeglasses does not have such a dramatic effect on color perception in a myopic eye).

Jeff - I played your color sensitivity game before, and now, and there is strong repetition factor.

 

[Arkteia]

Crasru,
These are very educational pictures. I don't think many people are aware at the dramatic color shifts that some Mahenge spinels can have. For me, I would think this would be important in determining their value, but it doesn't seem that many are discounted due to the amount of color shift. See how pink your sapphire stays in artificial light? I think that is important.

Agree 100%. I have seen many spinels and the amount and degree of color shift can not be underestimated. In fact, wrong color shift affects your life quality - it is simply irritating. No joke, if you have look at the stone for the whole day... LD had shown photos of her sapphire. It holds color in all lights, and it is amazing. My blue sapphire looks awesome in some lights, and totally closes in other conditions. Pink sapphire holds its color - please take into account that it is bezeled, and bezeling is very unflattering for most stones.

 

[MieleMelograno]

Actually, you may find that you really do need to have your eyes adjusted: http://www.xrite.com/custom_page.aspx?PageID=77

Beyond "subjectivity" we may all actually see color a bit differently. I don't think this is anything new though - just a bit of fun.

Notice the difference between men and women?

Good Luck!

Jeffrey Hunt

HA! I love this! I got a 0!! my teachers wondered why I painted abstract "color thesis" It's because I love color for the sake of color!

 

[AGBF]

Ruby and pink sapphire hold their colors in real life conditions, while the stone turns orange.

crasru-I am very much enjoying your postings, but if you have the time, I would love to see your ruby and pink sapphire under the Solux and Otts lights, too. Right now, I have only seen one stone under those lighting conditions. So I have seen that it changes from being under those lights to being in real sunlight. And I have read that your ruby and pink sapphire "hold their color" in real sunlight. But compared to what? I wonder if the color of the ruby and the pink sapphire would also be changed by being under Solux and Otts lights.

Thank you for taking the time to educate us!!!

Deb/AGBF


Diamonds Are A Girl's Best Friend

 

[minousbijoux]

Hey Jeff:

Its pretty funny, but as I recall, most PSers got perfect scores, so there goes that theory! But nice try!

 

[MieleMelograno]

Regarding this thread...
color
red
blue
green
anything is truly in the eye of the beholder. even with microscopes etc, GIA, AGL, IGS, etc all have varying ideas of what "ideal" or "perfect" color is. No matter how you analyze a stone you may see that it contains a chrome component or it fluoresces ... the judgement/appraisal/certification is based on the person viewing the stone.

I love Doug's stones and I really love all the discussion going on here. I find it interesting from both a consumer and producer stand point.

I do think that a person's opinion on a stone's color can also be affected by their peers perception of it. I used to love this one color shifting garnet, it went from a dusty rose to a deep burgandy, but in some lights (setting sun mixed with incandescent) it looked like a caramel color. I didn't mind it's less flattering hue. However, time after time I was told that it looked brown. I now don't appreciate the stone as much as when we first had it faceted.

 

[Jeffrey Hunt]

Hi minousbijoux

Thank you for the kind compliment. I too found the test interesting and I'm sure all PS readers here who have not seen it before did too.

This is a interesting topic and I see more ammunition being added to the thread that can help the consumer make an informed choice - I see that many many people are following this thread. Informed choice is best for everyone I think.



Regards

Jeffrey Hunt

 

[T L]

Regarding this thread...
color
red
blue
green
anything is truly in the eye of the beholder. even with microscopes etc, GIA, AGL, IGS, etc all have varying ideas of what "ideal" or "perfect" color is. No matter how you analyze a stone you may see that it contains a chrome component or it fluoresces ... the judgement/appraisal/certification is based on the person viewing the stone.

I love Doug's stones and I really love all the discussion going on here. I find it interesting from both a consumer and producer stand point.

I do think that a person's opinion on a stone's color can also be affected by their peers perception of it. I used to love this one color shifting garnet, it went from a dusty rose to a deep burgandy, but in some lights (setting sun mixed with incandescent) it looked like a caramel color. I didn't mind it's less flattering hue. However, time after time I was told that it looked brown. I now don't appreciate the stone as much as when we first had it faceted.

There's actually a huge database of color and a lot of science behind what AGL deems as various colors. If you notice, they break down color by varying hues in their prestige report. There is more information on their website. Although the trade sets the preference for colored gems, it is based on what the market prefers, and rarity of course. I trust certain entities, like AGL, more than your average appraiser because AGL has seen some of the best gems in the world, and they add that to their database. As for GIA, they have scientific ways of determining fancy diamond color as well. The top gem labs, AGL (for colored stones) and GIA (for FCD's) take the grading of color very seriously.

However, if you're talking about any person looking at a gem, without a gemological background, or without viewing many gems in person, color can be very subjective. As I pointed out, I think the best thing for someone to do is to view as many fine gems as possible in order to get an idea of what ideal color looks like. It also helps one spot modifiers right away, and deem fine saturation.

Incidentally, that garnet you have looks like a mayala, which tend to color shift. Your description of the color shift is spot on for a malaya. I probably wouldn't call it a color changer, I think that's just making it sound fancier than it is to sell the gem IMHO. I am too honest for my own good. Nice cutting and it looks pretty in your top photo.

 

[Arkteia]

Ruby and pink sapphire hold their colors in real life conditions, while the stone turns orange.

crasru-I am very much enjoying your postings, but if you have the time, I would love to see your ruby and pink sapphire under the Solux and Otts lights, too. Right now, I have only seen one stone under those lighting conditions. So I have seen that it changes from being under those lights to being in real sunlight. And I have read that your ruby and pink sapphire "hold their color" in real sunlight. But compared to what? I wonder if the color of the ruby and the pink sapphire would also be changed by being under Solux and Otts lights.

Thank you for taking the time to educate us!!!

Deb/AGBF


Diamonds Are A Girl's Best Friend

Very good point, Deb. I shall do it, but you may have to wait till tomorrow or even Saturday. My kid is sick today so I am sitting at home and it totally shifted my busy schedule. I just do not want you to think that I am avoiding posting.

I am also going to photograph my other spinels (some of them are not good buys, some of them are very good) because I checked my stone box and specifically checked the color-changing effect. Also, my sapphires.

But in general, it was not about color-changing. It was about something being sold as red while in reality it had definite orange in it. If you were sitting next to me, you'd see it, too. Rods and cones apart, most people on this forum have been collecting and searching for stones for many years, usually this business drives away obvious daltonics.

 

[Arkteia]

Ruby and pink sapphire hold their colors in real life conditions, while the stone turns orange.

crasru-I am very much enjoying your postings, but if you have the time, I would love to see your ruby and pink sapphire under the Solux and Otts lights, too. Right now, I have only seen one stone under those lighting conditions. So I have seen that it changes from being under those lights to being in real sunlight. And I have read that your ruby and pink sapphire "hold their color" in real sunlight. But compared to what? I wonder if the color of the ruby and the pink sapphire would also be changed by being under Solux and Otts lights.

Thank you for taking the time to educate us!!!

Deb/AGBF


Diamonds Are A Girl's Best Friend

Very good point, Deb. I shall do it, but you may have to wait till tomorrow or even Saturday. My kid is sick today so I am sitting at home and it totally shifted my busy schedule. I just do not want you to think that I am avoiding posting.

I am also going to photograph my other spinels (some of them are not good buys, some of them are very good) because I checked my stone box and specifically checked the color-changing effect. Also, my sapphires.

But in general, it was not about color-changing. It was about something being sold as red while in reality it had definite orange in it. If you were sitting next to me, you'd see it, too. Rods and cones apart, most people on this forum have been collecting and searching for stones for many years, usually this business drives away obvious daltonics.

Sorry, double post.

 

[Arkteia]

Regarding this thread...
color
red
blue
green
anything is truly in the eye of the beholder. even with microscopes etc, GIA, AGL, IGS, etc all have varying ideas of what "ideal" or "perfect" color is. No matter how you analyze a stone you may see that it contains a chrome component or it fluoresces ... the judgement/appraisal/certification is based on the person viewing the stone.

I love Doug's stones and I really love all the discussion going on here. I find it interesting from both a consumer and producer stand point.

I do think that a person's opinion on a stone's color can also be affected by their peers perception of it. I used to love this one color shifting garnet, it went from a dusty rose to a deep burgandy, but in some lights (setting sun mixed with incandescent) it looked like a caramel color. I didn't mind it's less flattering hue. However, time after time I was told that it looked brown. I now don't appreciate the stone as much as when we first had it faceted.

There's actually a huge database of color and a lot of science behind what AGL deems as various colors. If you notice, they break down color by varying hues in their prestige report. There is more information on their website. Although the trade sets the preference for colored gems, it is based on what the market prefers, and rarity of course. I trust certain entities, like AGL, more than your average appraiser because AGL has seen some of the best gems in the world, and they add that to their database. As for GIA, they have scientific ways of determining fancy diamond color as well. The top gem labs, AGL (for colored stones) and GIA (for FCD's) take the grading of color very seriously.

However, if you're talking about any person looking at a gem, without a gemological background, or without viewing many gems in person, color can be very subjective. As I pointed out, I think the best thing for someone to do is to view as many fine gems as possible in order to get an idea of what ideal color looks like. It also helps one spot modifiers right away, and deem fine saturation.

Incidentally, that garnet you have looks like a mayala, which tend to color shift. Your description of the color shift is spot on for a malaya. I probably wouldn't call it a color changer, I think that's just making it sound fancier than it is to sell the gem IMHO. I am too honest for my own good. Nice cutting and it looks pretty in your top photo.

Just wanted to say that rods and cones are in the eye of a beholder...

Color shift can be fun but it can also be extremely irritating if indoor color is muddy. And also, the color that may look beautiful "dusty rose" in picture has a potential of turning into something unimpressive and muddy once set.

 

[LD]

Regarding this thread...
color
red
blue
green
anything is truly in the eye of the beholder. even with microscopes etc, GIA, AGL, IGS, etc all have varying ideas of what "ideal" or "perfect" color is. No matter how you analyze a stone you may see that it contains a chrome component or it fluoresces ... the judgement/appraisal/certification is based on the person viewing the stone.

I love Doug's stones and I really love all the discussion going on here. I find it interesting from both a consumer and producer stand point.

I do think that a person's opinion on a stone's color can also be affected by their peers perception of it. I used to love this one color shifting garnet, it went from a dusty rose to a deep burgandy, but in some lights (setting sun mixed with incandescent) it looked like a caramel color. I didn't mind it's less flattering hue. However, time after time I was told that it looked brown. I now don't appreciate the stone as much as when we first had it faceted.

You've described a very typical Malaya garnet. I have one also that I adore when it's in its rose pink state but I absolutely hate the caramel colour - so much so that I haven't had it set and it's languishing in a gem box! I'm sorry that you were put off by others. If YOU love it, that's what counts. I adore Alexandrite but there are not many of us about who do! Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!

 

[MieleMelograno]

][/quote]
You've described a very typical Malaya garnet. I have one also that I adore when it's in its rose pink state but I absolutely hate the caramel colour - so much so that I haven't had it set and it's languishing in a gem box! I'm sorry that you were put off by others. If YOU love it, that's what counts. I adore Alexandrite but there are not many of us about who do! Beauty is in the eye of the beholder![/quote]

LOL I appreciate your response. This is a color "shifting" garnet to be proper from the Voi area of Kenya. We actually know the landowners. One of their relatives lives here and works with my husband. That's how we have been able to source our gems.
And he person who refernced the brown was actually my husband so that's why it's changed my high regard for the stone. I still love the cut and will eventually make a ring for it but since the birth of our 4th son my studio time has been limited to 10hrs in 6 months

There's actually a huge database of color and a lot of science behind what AGL deems as various colors. If you notice, they break down color by varying hues in their prestige report. There is more information on their website. Although the trade sets the preference for colored gems, it is based on what the market prefers, and rarity of course. I trust certain entities, like AGL, more than your average appraiser because AGL has seen some of the best gems in the world, and they add that to their database. As for GIA, they have scientific ways of determining fancy diamond color as well. The top gem labs, AGL (for colored stones) and GIA (for FCD's) take the grading of color very seriously.

I am very aware of the database and the science behind lab reports. here's an excerpt from an article I've enjoyed...
http://www.preciousgemstones.com/gffallparttwo.html
"THE GIA COLORED STONE SYSTEM
The following excerpt is reprinted with permission from Peter Rowe, a graduate gemologist in Detroit. Thank you Peter! It is an excellent description of GIA's new colored grading system. Unlike the AGL Colored Stone Grading Report, the GIA does not issue a certificate. The basic system is based on the Gem Set colored grading system. Although National Gemstone has serious problems with Gem Set compared to AGL's Color Scan, the following is important educational information. Let us know what you think.

Color
Color is divided into three basic properties: Hue, Tone, and Saturation. Hue is the basic color, such as red, blue, slightly greenish blue, etc. The color wheel is divided into 3 basic hues and 28 derivatives, plus allowing the terms pink and brown as exceptions to the basic terms.

Tone
Tone is the scale from light to dark, regardless of color. It's rated from 1 to 10, with the following descriptions:

0 colorless or white
1 extremely light
2 very light
3 light
4 medium light
5 medium
6 medium dark
7 dark
8 very dark
9 extremely dark
10 black

Saturation
Saturation is the intensity of color, like the color control on your TV which changes it from black and white to garishly more colorful than reality. Low saturations are described as a degree of grayishness for cool colors (like blues and greens), and brownishness for warm colors, yellow, red etc. The saturation terms are:

1 grayish (brownish)
2 slightly grayish (brownish)
3 very slightly grayish (brownish)
4 moderately strong
5 strong
6 vivid

Using these terms it is possible to write simple color descriptions that make a certain intuitive sense, as well as being a repeatable standard. You describe a color as hue, tone, and saturation. If the person writing the description and the one reading it have access to either the gem set samples or a colormaster (for which settings for each sample are defined), then quite precise color communication is possible. But it's important to note that even so, there's a bit of room for slop or play in each color description. The eye can discriminate between exceedingly fine differences in color. So it's possible to have several slight variations of color that all fit pretty much into one description.

In a few cases, notably the finest rubies, sapphires, and emeralds, those faint differences can equal substantial differences in price, so this system isn't quite up to completely perfect accuracy, much less a really precise pricing structure based solely on stated color descriptions or grades. It will remain necessary for gem dealers and consumers to actually look at the stones, and visually evaluate what they see.

Grading Color
Now that you've got a way to communicate what a given color is, a way is needed to suggest which ones are better than others. It's no longer as simple as a linear scale like diamond grading uses. For the GIA colored stone grading system, what's been done is to create a long series of grid charts, listing colors for each gem variety. For each gem, and for each hue that that gem commonly occurs in, a chart is drawn with tone values from 2 to 8 vertically and saturation values from 1 to 6 horizontally. Then a numerical grade from 1 to 10 is assigned in each space where the gem commonly occurs in that hue/tone/saturation combination. The grade isn't linear, or absolute. It is only meant to suggest relative desirability from one stone to another.

In Blue Sapphires (Violetish/blue), for example, one of the charts looks like this:

SATURATION 1 2 3 4 5 6
TONE
2 1 1.5 2
3 1.5 2 3 4 5
4 2 2.5 4 5 6.5 8
5 2 3 4.5 6 7.5 9
6 2 3.5 5 6.5 8.5 10
7 1 2 3 4 5.5
8 1 1.5 2 2.5
For example, a stone that would receive a 10 (the theoretical best or finest) would be a blue sapphire (violetish/blue) with 6 (medium dark) tone and 6 (vivid) saturation.

Clarity
The first difference between colored stones and diamond is that clarity has different meanings for different types of stones. Thus in an emerald, a stone that appears to the naked eye to be reasonably clear with only a few minor inclusions visible to eye is considered a pretty good emerald, clarity wise, yet if it's an aquamarine those same inclusions probably make it a not very desirable stone, as aqua is usually desired completely free of inclusions to the eye, and even under 10x. Therefore, the GIA colored stone grading system divided stones into three basic clarity types, and then assigns different meanings to the grades within each type.

Type I are stones which often grow flawless, or nearly so, such as aquamarine, citrine quartz, or green tourmaline. Visible Inclusions are usually quite detrimental to the value.

Type II stones are those which generally grow with moderate inclusions, such as ruby and sapphire, amethyst, garnets, etc. Some inclusions are expected, and unless obvious, are not as detrimental to the desirability and value.

Type III stones are those such as emerald and red tourmaline, which virtually always have inclusions, and those inclusions are well tolerated. In these stones, unless the inclusions become extreme, they often have relatively less effect on a stone's desirability.

Within these general classes, the GIA system then assigns grades which look similar to the diamond grades, but are modified to fit the expectations in colored stones. There is no flawless or IF grade in the colored stone system, as it was felt that no colored stone could attain and maintain in wear the standards for that term that are so well defined in diamonds. There are eight clarity grades. The highest is VVS, then VS. These two are not subdivided as in diamonds. The SI grade is divided into SI1 and SI2, and the I grade is divided into I1, I2, and I3. I won't go into the fine details but the general reasoning behind the definitions is pretty much what you'd expect.

Cutting
Cutting is graded upon shape, symmetry, brilliance, polish, the degree of extinction (black dark areas) and windowing.

Conclusion
Supposing you now have a complete GIA system grading report on a given stone. Or perhaps the AGL grading report, which uses different terms, but does about the same thing in the end. What do you actually have? What you've got is merely a description. Hopefully a fairly accurate one. As yet these grading terms are only in sporadic use among the professionals talking among themselves. It may well be that this is for the best, as in most cases it still takes a practiced eye to evaluate what all that data means. Once, diamond grading too was only a professionals only practice, and diamonds were sold by stores according to the stores' own beliefs as to what was desirable or not, with little mention made of the exact terminology used by GIA. Some day, the colored stone industry may take for granted the practice of describing color and quality in universal language, so we can all understand what we are all saying to each other."

The reality remains that it is still a perception of color. Doug had even stated that there were possible orange modifiers in his listing. The debate here has been on the perception of "true red". Red wether on the blue or yellow end of the specturm is still red. It is a matter of preference of the stone buyer. The person who purchased the stone loved it so much as to buy it for the 4K asking price but, I feel, has been turned against it, in a way, by the responses here. Just like how my husband changed my opinion of the stone I posted.

I hope that the purchaser either returns the stone, or revives her love for the stone. It is a stone worth loving, granted it is not to my taste cut wise.

 

[T L]

The reality remains that it is still a perception of color. Doug had even stated that there were possible orange modifiers in his listing. The debate here has been on the perception of "true red". Red wether on the blue or yellow end of the specturm is still red. It is a matter of preference of the stone buyer. The person who purchased the stone loved it so much as to buy it for the 4K asking price but, I feel, has been turned against it, in a way, by the responses here. Just like how my husband changed my opinion of the stone I posted.

I hope that the purchaser either returns the stone, or revives her love for the stone. It is a stone worth loving, granted it is not to my taste cut wise.

The buyer said the photos that Doug took were "spot on" and therefore most of us saw orange in them. As a conclusion, I believe he just cannot see orange that well in reddish family stones. Either that, or he, or any other vendor, would be trying to *gulp* deceive. Now, I don't know Doug, and I'm being very very neutral in my opinion of him, and coming to conclusions based on logic and not emotion. That is not to say that Doug is purposely trying to deceive, as I don't know that for a fact, nor do I know for a fact that he cannot see orange in reddish stones. Again, this could be "Vendor Mr. X" and I have no clue what his thought processes are or how good his vision is.

The other possibility is that many of us had monitors calibrated toward orange, or the buyer just cannot see orange herself. However, the former seems unlikely, and if she said those photos are spot on, then it validates the claim that there's orange in the stone since many of us saw that clearly and easily in the photos (and her photos as well). It's not one of those gems you have to squint at to see any orange. Color is subjective and many people perceive what they can, but I think this stone was one of thsoe cases where the orange was easily and clearly seen.

There is often a great deal of emotion attached to a certain vendor, and I rather dislike that attitude. I think a vendor should always be recommended and verbally rewarded on this site when they do a good job, or sell a great stone. Likewise, negativity also comes with the territory, and this thread has just not added up in Doug's favor. I'm sorry for that, especially for people that like him in the business and his customers, but this is a consumer forum afterall. If he wants vindication, send the gem to the AGL.

If this were a $200 gem, I wouldn't care so much, but it was $4K, a substantial price for a gem that has a substantial amount of orange as perceived by many, and validated by the buyer. I tend to side with the consumer as I feel they have to protect themselves, and they have nothing to gain by knowingly making inaccurate statements about vendors.

I don't remember Doug's exact words, but I think he said something like "if there's any other color in this stone, I don't see it" which protects him from possible pitfalls of the stone not being exactly as described. However, he also said it was very red too, and in all honesty, he made it sound like it was as red as anyone could imagine. At least that's how I perceived his verbal description.

 

[Jeffrey Hunt]

https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/colorgems/colorgems_color

Posted today I believe. Excellent reading and final recommendation.

Jeffrey Hunt

 

[LD]

MieleMelograno

I'm really upset that you believe that the buyer may have been put off by others negativity. That's simply NOT the case and I hope BrightIce chimes in to confirm. She firmly believed the gem to be pure red - please see her posts. When it arrived, for her, it wasn't.

If somebody comes on this forum and asks for opinions, generally they get it (good and bad) and there is very little vendor bias. The people who contributed purely stated their opinions. If I posted and asked for opinions and a stone arrived and it was wonderful, I'd keep it regardless. I appreciate some others wouldn't but then if you don't want to know what others think it's simple, don't ask! The wonderful thing about this forum is that people give tons of free advice and it can be a great place to learn.

This is a consumer forum and, in the main, has a mix of people who have been collecting gemstones for years and those who are new to it. That leads to lively and healthy debates.

 

[Aoife]

MieleMelograno

I'm really upset that you believe that the buyer may have been put off by others negativity. That's simply NOT the case and I hope BrightIce chimes in to confirm. She firmly believed the gem to be pure red - please see her posts. When it arrived, for her, it wasn't.

If somebody comes on this forum and asks for opinions, generally they get it (good and bad) and there is very little vendor bias. The people who contributed purely stated their opinions. If I posted and asked for opinions and a stone arrived and it was wonderful, I'd keep it regardless. I appreciate some others wouldn't but then if you don't want to know what others think it's simple, don't ask! The wonderful thing about this forum is that people give tons of free advice and it can be a great place to learn.

This is a consumer forum and, in the main, has a mix of people who have been collecting gemstones for years and those who are new to it. That leads to lively and healthy debates.

In this specific case, IIRC, Bright Ice said from the beginning she wanted a pure red, which was not what she received, in her opinion. The opinions posted here just validated her own reaction. However, I have seen exactly what MieleMelograno references happen with other posters, have done it myself, and felt really badly about it when I stopped to think. While this is a consumer forum, and while there are undoubtedly standards for "most desirable" in terms of color, I always feel dreadful when someone posts here about a recent purchase, and by the end of the thread you can practically see the pride and pleasure leaking away. I'm not sure how to avoid that, but it does happen, and I don't think it's a good thing.

 

[MieleMelograno]

MieleMelograno

I'm really upset that you believe that the buyer may have been put off by others negativity. That's simply NOT the case and I hope BrightIce chimes in to confirm. She firmly believed the gem to be pure red - please see her posts. When it arrived, for her, it wasn't.

If somebody comes on this forum and asks for opinions, generally they get it (good and bad) and there is very little vendor bias. The people who contributed purely stated their opinions. If I posted and asked for opinions and a stone arrived and it was wonderful, I'd keep it regardless. I appreciate some others wouldn't but then if you don't want to know what others think it's simple, don't ask! The wonderful thing about this forum is that people give tons of free advice and it can be a great place to learn.

This is a consumer forum and, in the main, has a mix of people who have been collecting gemstones for years and those who are new to it. That leads to lively and healthy debates.

In this specific case, IIRC, Bright Ice said from the beginning she wanted a pure red, which was not what she received, in her opinion. The opinions posted here just validated her own reaction. However, I have seen exactly what MieleMelograno references happen with other posters, have done it myself, and felt really badly about it when I stopped to think. While this is a consumer forum, and while there are undoubtedly standards for "most desirable" in terms of color, I always feel dreadful when someone posts here about a recent purchase, and by the end of the thread you can practically see the pride and pleasure leaking away. I'm not sure how to avoid that, but it does happen, and I don't think it's a good thing.

Thank you. That's exactly what I thought I saw happening to BrightIce, perhaps it is not what was happening. Either way, I am not intending to discourage debate, or opinions. (Captain of the debate team 2 out of 3yrs ) I plan on having lots of fun seeing your gem finds and sharing mine.

 

[T L]

While this is a consumer forum, and while there are undoubtedly standards for "most desirable" in terms of color, I always feel dreadful when someone posts here about a recent purchase, and by the end of the thread you can practically see the pride and pleasure leaking away. I'm not sure how to avoid that, but it does happen, and I don't think it's a good thing.

[/quote]

If people ask for opinions, there are many honest people that will provide their input. If it helps people save a lot of money and avoid a potentially wrong and or costly purchase for them, than more power to the forum. If someone posts a photo of a stone and is proud of it, and not really asking for opinions, then I typically shut up, and if I like it, I'll respond in some favorable fashion. Others do the same. It's kind of the unwritten rule around here. Once someone says "what do you think of it?" or "Can I have opinions?" then all bets are off, and honest opinions are provided.

I think sometimes the written word can be misconstrued as harsh and rather blunt, but it is meant in the best of intentions on this board. I don't think most people on this board are out to be purposely mean, and if they are, well others can choose to ignore them. Giving true and honest opinions is not the same thing as being mean spirited.

I think the smiley faces help though

 

[Arkteia]

(People probably got sick and tired of my avatar today...)

If we only pat each other's backs, we'll inadvertently promote purchase of overpriced for their quality stones. Most of us came here to learn and each of us probably has made costly mistakes. I am not proud of some purchases and will never show them here, but had I posted them immediately after purchase, critique of my fellows might have prompted me to return the stones back and save my money.

A good example would be the heart-shaped sapphire which I recently posted. Pandora said the color was light; I do not know if it was just education or she also wanted to hint at its poor quality. I e-mailed the vendor and said I was going to send it back. I am thankful to her.

Funny, TL, I was typing my post as you were posting yours! Same opinion!