Teaser pics of red spinels available!

[y2kitty]

This was a learning experience for everyone, and the gem is now down from his site. I hope if he resells it, he has it looked at by someone that can scientifically determine if the color is truly red.

No its not, you just have to scroll down to the Sold section.

 

[Jeffrey Hunt]

Hello All,

I’m going to venture a follow-up of my previous post.

The buyer is the most important voice here. Return of the stone for any reason, color, size, unexpected inclusions, poor polish, or the even the price, is expected and normal for any vendor. The analysis of gemstone color through photographs is an art not science and is subjective to every degree. My initial shock came from the comments assuming the seller is trying to mislead, I don't think that is what the majority of Pricescope posters like to read, and I venture it’s not the overall opinion here.

Again, the buyer has the most important voice and if they see too much orange then the stone needs to be shipped back. It is an absolute unique and personal choice! Pretty simple that. Afterall, who has actually seen the stone? A photograph can only capture a gem at any particular time under very specific lighting. Although all reputable sellers try to get as close as possible, the photograph is not the gem.

Pricescope is an absolutely wonderful consumer board, and I know designers and artists are very welcome here. Why then are many of those voices missing? I suppose that’s a rhetorical question.

Humble Regards,

Jeffrey Hunt

 

[AGBF]

Although all reputable sellers try to get as close as possible, the photograph is not the gem.

Pricescope is an absolutely wonderful consumer board, and I know designers and artists are very welcome here. Why then are many of those voices missing?

Indeed the photograph is not the gem! Sometimes, as Tourmaline Lover has pointed out, the vendor photoshops the photo of the gem! In some instances, as she has said, it is to bring the photo closer to the real appearance of the gem, and in some cases it is to enhance the appearance of the gem. I do believe it is she who warns us to know our vendors because we can never depend on photos, as you rightly point out!

You feel we are missing "designers" and "artists"? I agree (this is becoming a tedious love fest) with Tourmaline Lover that what we are missing are scientists!!! Unless you are dealing with someone whom you know personally and whose eye you trust, send the stones to AGL for the long form report as she advises if you want accurate information about them!!!

Deb/AGBF

 

[T L]

Hello All,

I’m going to venture a follow-up of my previous post.

The buyer is the most important voice here. Return of the stone for any reason, color, size, unexpected inclusions, poor polish, or the even the price, is expected and normal for any vendor. The analysis of gemstone color through photographs is an art not science and is subjective to every degree. My initial shock came from the comments assuming the seller is trying to mislead, I don't think that is what the majority of Pricescope posters like to read, and I venture it’s not the overall opinion here.

Again, the buyer has the most important voice and if they see too much orange then the stone needs to be shipped back. It is an absolute unique and personal choice! Pretty simple that. Afterall, who has actually seen the stone? A photograph can only capture a gem at any particular time under very specific lighting. Although all reputable sellers try to get as close as possible, the photograph is not the gem.

Pricescope is an absolutely wonderful consumer board, and I know designers and artists are very welcome here. Why then are many of those voices missing? I suppose that’s a rhetorical question.

Humble Regards,

Jeffrey Hunt

No one assumed he is trying to mislead. We have no way of knowing that. He might be, he might not be. He is just a vendor, and some people love him, some people have never dealt with him, or have heard of him. I think neutrality is sometimes missing from threads like these, and people feel like they're being attacked. As was stated earlier, it is not the intention of this thread to throw stones at the vendor, but to merely highlight that there are some discrepancies with the vendor's description of this gem, and what the buyer saw IRL.

Colored gem shopping is very precarious because there are no real set prices on colored gems like there are on colorless diamonds, or other products and services. Pricescope provides a very helpful service in the fact that we do have discussions like these, in order to conclude what is a fair market value on a gem. Color is a really important aspect of that value, and I will admit, it does get frustrating for some people when they don't see what the vendor sees. There may be some frustration in this thread, and I will admit to that. However, as far as Doug is concerned, I don't care if I had the most positive experience in the world with him, I would still have an air of neutrality towards what others had to say about him, and I would allow them to air their voices. Sometimes people will have very negative experiences with vendors I admire, and that is perfectly fine. We all should all have discussions about these things.

As for the missing voices of designers and artists, tradespeople are not really allowed in this forum to comment on other trademembers stones, so if you see that missing in this thread, that is probably why. If anything, Doug I believe, would be allowed to comment on his own stone, as long as he didn't sound like he was trying to sell it. The moderator can provide more specifics on that if you contact him/her. You can use the "Report Concern" button in the upper right hand corner.

 

[Jeffrey Hunt]

Hi Deb,

My point was the buyer has the final say regardless of what the report says. A report is great for insuring standards but they can't dictate taste. But perhaps that just my crazy opinion.

I for one like amber green-brown stones - I know I"m in the minority there - but it's a good example of personal taste! ( yuck )

Regards,

Jeffrey Hunt

 

[AGBF]

My point was the buyer has the final say regardless of what the report says. A report is great for ensuring standards but they can't dictate taste. But perhaps that just my crazy opinion.

I for one like amber green-brown stones - I know I"m in the minority there - but it's a good example personal taste! ( yuck )

I'm afraid you've you have lost me, Jeffrey. I went on a hunt for a red spinel of a very specific red hue. In order to find it, I put up as many photos in a thread here as possible. Others saw them and a few people really understood the exact hue and saturation I was looking for. As I have said in my own thread, I have never said that my red is the "true" red or the "best" red, simply the red I wanted. Like your amber green-brown.

What cannot help someone in a search for a stone is a vendor with a bad eye for color. A searcher needs someone with a fabulous eye for color! That's been my point in this thread, not that someone can't like "yucky" browns!!! If he likes "yucky" browns, he may want to enlist someone with a great eye to help him find the amber green-brown of exactly the right hue he loves!!

Deb

 

[T L]

My point was the buyer has the final say regardless of what the report says. A report is great for ensuring standards but they can't dictate taste. But perhaps that just my crazy opinion.

Jeff, that is true, but I think ensuring standards is not to be underestimated, especially when it comes to a stone worth thousands of dollars. Red is the most expensive color for colored gems, and it is the Holy Grail for many collectors to get a pure red stone, or at least one with over 70% Red hue. Therefore, when a vendor states that a gem is pure red, and he can't see any other color, collectors like me take those words very seriously. Perhaps I'm just a purist, but if this stone was a few hundred dollars, I probably wouldn't be speaking so much in this thread. If someone is going to make remarks like that, and charge a great deal of money for the stone based on the rarity of hue, I really think they should ship it off to AGL to back up their claim.

One of the other frustrating things for me is to see mock grading systems on websites in order to sell gems. I can perhaps understand this for inexpensive gems, so I'm not going to make a fuss. However, when I see a very expensive gem, and no scientific information to back up the grading claims, I do get uneasy with that. I constantly shout from the rooftops to send these gems to AGL for a color analysis report because I think it ensures some standards, and holds the vendor accountable for his/her claims.

 

[Jeffrey Hunt]

TourmalineLover,

You make some wonderful points!

One of the loveliest features on the Pricescope Colored Stone forum I think, is the comparison of vendor and buyer photos. This is unique on the web and much can be learned from it, and I hope the practice continues here in an open forum, which I’m sure it will.

As you suggest, a standard test is an excellent method to establish a color model that can be utilized long distance. I used to teach design at the University of California and I would occasionally use the humorous example of trying to describe color over the phone, you can’t do it accurately without a common reference point.

But, my very simple point in my follow up post earlier today, is the only person who matters with the color choice is the buyer. All the stone experts can weigh in to good cause, - but I think we would all agree the final choice is up to the client. You can see it in action here daily on this very forum.

Kind Regards,

Jeffrey Hunt

 

[chrono]

Late to this thread and my probably unnecessary 2 cents:
Sure, the last word lies with the buyer. Sure, it is the buyer's decision.
That said, with online sales and international shipping involved, it makes sense to narrow down the choices as much as possible. This is where the vendor's description becomes a point that is more important than the pictures. Pictures are the first step to catch the buyer's attention, then conversation with the vendor to make sure it's the right stone. The vendor's eye comes into play now. Nobody is implying that Doug deliberately mislead the buyer. When it comes to high priced gems, the accuracy of colour becomes very important as the nuance of modifier sets the price within its hue range.

 

[Jeffrey Hunt]

Dear Chrono,

You make excellent points.

I would add, not only online and international sales, but increased online international sales – we are going to see more and more of this.

I would also humbly suggest, that the price is not set by a specific color match, but by if the stone is actually purchased or not. The purchase determines value. The base line of color communication is extremely important, especially with expensive stones. But beyond price, it becomes even more important if you are looking for a highly personal gemstone as many consumers are. The accurate description will slow down costly returns, but of course won’t replace the option of personal preference. We all respond uniquely to different colors – especially when interpreting grey, brown and other occasional phantom-like modifiers. I often see discussion of modifiers when it’s simply poor lighting or color balance in the photo – the color standard you describe would help define this.

I also know, and as I have seen on this very forum, that stones sometimes show up in the mail that have had inadequate color descriptions to the wonderful advantage of the buyer. Those are the best purchases - when the stone knocks your socks off! Accurate color models really are the best practice for both ends of the transaction though, and the standardization of expanding world-wide sources.

Thank you for the interesting discussion.

Kind Regards,

 

[LD]

Dear Chrono,

You make excellent points.

I would add, not only online and international sales, but increased online international sales – we are going to see more and more of this.

I would also humbly suggest, that the price is not set by a specific color match, but by if the stone is actually purchased or not. The purchase determines value. The base line of color communication is extremely important, especially with expensive stones. But beyond price, it becomes even more important if you are looking for a highly personal gemstone as many consumers are. The accurate description will slow down costly returns, but of course won’t replace the option of personal preference. We all respond uniquely to different colors – especially when interpreting grey, brown and other occasional phantom-like modifiers. I often see discussion of modifiers when it’s simply poor lighting or color balance in the photo – the color standard you describe would help define this.

I also know, and as I have seen on this very forum, that stones sometimes show up in the mail that have had inadequate color descriptions to the wonderful advantage of the buyer. Those are the best purchases - when the stone knocks your socks off! Accurate color models really are the best practice for both ends of the transaction though, and the standardization of expanding world-wide sources.

Thank you for the interesting discussion.

Kind Regards,

Jeffrey I am not sure I understand the sentences highlighted above. Most gemstones have a "best" or "most desired" colour and they attract a premium price. Any red gem that is described as "pure red" typically has a premium attached. In this case the spinel was described as "pure red". The photographs didn't show that - but as we all agree, photographs lie and on different monitors the colour varies. However, we were all worried after looking at the photos but critically nobody said "don't buy this". It was bought and the buyer reported back that indeed the stone wasn't, in her opinion, pure red and she did indeed see orange. Based on that, and not the photographs, the spinel would appear to be very expensive. As this is a consumer forum, contributors to the forum mentioned it (albeit in an oblique manner).

Unfortunately, if we're buying from abroad the ONLY information available is the vendor's description - so you rely on their eyes - and photographs. With that in mind, it's CRITICAL that information is accurate. I don't believe in this case it is - I have no idea why and we've done that discussion to death but you get my meaning that we don't have anything else and so have to judge a stone with the information given.

If I were buying a car or a house, I would shop around, look for the best deal, most competitively priced and ask advice if needed. That's what a consumer forum is all about.

 

[Jeffrey Hunt]

Hi LovingDiamonds,

I’m not sure if I’m following your question. You will have to explain it a little more I’m afraid.

My point on value was I suppose a little more esoteric and does fall squarely in the interests of the consumer. I was not referring to value determined by an industry guide, (an accepted and valuable standard) but by what someone is actually willing to pay. Basic economics of supply and demand. A subtle difference I know, but don’t the guides follow the realized sale prices?

Perhaps I'm simply wrong. If so, please please correct me – Pricescope is certainly a great consumer interest forum for myself, and many others to learn this information.

And of course I think you would have to judge the gem with the information at hand. There is really no other option is there.

Kind Regards,

Jeffrey Hunt

 

[LD]

Whoops - double post!

 

[LD]

Jeffrey I think it's an interesting discussion. I believe there are two values:-

1. The value that doesn't have a $ worth - ie does the buyer love the gem and the price becomes, to a certain extent, immaterial.
2. The actual commercial/market value of the gem - ie in comparison to similar gemstones of colour, size, clarity, rarity etc.

I have, on occasion, been prepared to pay more than a gem's actual commercial value because I have loved it so much. However, I have done so with the full knowledge that I was prepared to overpay. Therefore I haven't felt that a gem has been "missold". However, if I was buying something and believed it to be a fair market value because it was represented in a certain way but then it arrived and was something else, with a lesser commercial value, I would feel disquiet and wouldn't be happy - especially if I were out of pocket for shipping costs etc.

For a reasonably expensive gemstone, I believe the commercial/market value of the gem wasn't correct but may have been had it matched the description. If you read back through the thread, you'll see the buyer was absolutely 100% basing her decision to buy on the description of "pure red" and you can see that she discounted concerns about it having orange tones. Her final decision was, I think, made because #1 didn't apply in this case after she saw the gem and #2 she felt that the value was inaccurate (please forgive me if I've misread or misinterpreted anything).

I don't think this gem's worth was dictated by the buyer - if that was the case then it's not worth anything as I believe it has been returned?

I hope that clarifies my thought process? I do understand your position Jeffrey and it's good to have all points of view and it's great to debate!

 

[mastercutgems]

Hello All

Taking a break here from farm work...


I agree that the final decision is with the buyer; I also agree that this is a nice forum to have potential buyers show a particular gem to get opinions of some of the more learned colored stone collectors or buyers. It is common knowledge that some on here like me and some do not; it does not change my method of photography, testing, cutting or anything else; it is just personal opinions.


That is most of what these replies are on color, etc. as I do not think everyone is using the same monitor??? Whether it be the cut, trap or brilliant, window or no window, roval or geometrically exact, subtle or in your face vivid; they are all opinions and I have seen it so many times here and on other forums; what one person likes another dislikes; it is what makes us all unique and like the colored gems we purchase they too are unique and there will always be the right colored gem for the right person... I like that as it makes us unique as the gems we collect...

I do not think anyone was slamming anyone and I dare not speak in any form shape, etc. of another vendor as that is a total no, no for us vendors; but I will always give a positive when it is due and there are many that do great work that have been on this site.

I think it is nice to be neutral; I wish all were but that is not how the world is.

Just take as honest a picture as you can, test with all your skills and equipment, price it where you can still make a living and recoup your investment and hope someone else likes your work...

But I will have to say you surely can not judge all gemstones by the picture you see as with zircon; you will NEVER grasp all that mineral has to show when properly cut...

Have a lovely day all

Most respectfully;

Dana

 

[MontageCreations]

I don't know you Dana, but I like you...

 

[Arkteia]

As a collectioner, I'd like to know if I am paying a fair price and if my stone may be potentially upgradable. I may not necessarily ask for a color report and I am not a purist for orange or lack thereof, but I made some photos of the stone which was described as red-pink. The photos were made in daylight, no sun around, overcast sky, hence no light to bring out orange colors in the stone. Do you think it is red-pink or orange-pink?

 

[Arkteia]

Mind you, I have nothing against either the saturation, or the cut. Or even the color. It is a bright, saturated, happy stone with strong fluorescence. I shall be happy to wear it in a piece of jewelry. "Terra Spinel" book describes something like "Ferrari red" which in fact is orange-red, so I find it likable. And many of my coworkers liked it. But everyone saw orange in it. Why people who are not in the trade saw orange and people who are did not beats me...

The small heart-shaped stone is posted just to highlight the colors. I have no way of proving that the grass is not orange so I have to add different colors of red for comparison.

 

[GliderPoss]

Lovely stone Crasru! It looks hot pink to me, I see no orange - in fact I wouldn't even call it red but then again this just proves the whole "colour is subjective" thing!

 

[Arkteia]

OK which means that I have to take evening photos and post them as well... Thank you, though. It is quite nice and saturated, poor stone has also suffered a fall and a piece chipped off (my fault) so I owe it a setting I guess.

And the real color resembles "Ferrari red" in "Terra Spinel" book. THey have such a stone under "Tanzania".

 

[ooo~Shiney!]

I just think they are ALL so LOVELY !!!!!!
GLOWING !!!!

 

[chrono]

Interesting discussion from Crasru:
Pic 1 = looks pinkish red
Pic 2 = because of the better saturated and purer pink heart, the square spinel now exhibits orange when placed next to it
Pic 3 and the rest = I think lighting comes into play here and the spinel shifts strongly to orange/dreaded muddy brown

*edited for grammatical error*
I hate it when I am quoted before I can fix my mistakes.

 

[T L]

Interesting discussion from Crasru:
Pic 1 = look pinkish red
Pic 2 = because of the better saturated and purer pink heart, the square spinel now exhibits orange when placed next to it
Pic 3 and the rest = I think lighting comes into play here and the spinel shifts strongly to orange/dreaded muddy brown

Pic 1 looks strictly hot pink to me, but in the sun it might go pinkish red. I see orange next to the heart as well.

Ditto on the rest from Chrono. Are the photos accurate, especially in the last ones where it does tend to lose a lot of saturation and brightness.

One of the things that really bugs me about Mahenge spinels is that some tend to have dramatic color shifts. My purplish pink that I posted in the Princess Diana setting looks more muddy in artificial lighting as well. The trillion has a far less dramatic color shit, and still retains much of it's saturation and brightness. Does the heart lose a lot of saturation in artificial lighting?

 

[LD]

Interesting photos because it demonstrates the colour shift OR how photographs/lighting can make a gem look different!

Photo 1 for me was a beautiful hot pink with a bit of purple and red! Based on that photo I'd buy that gem!
Photo 2 was almost the same but showed a TINY bit of orange but I mean TINY bit!
Photo 3 looked brown orange and flat/lifeless (sorry Crasru) and had I seen that photo first I would have walked away!

Interestingly, I don't think in any of the photos it's a Ferrari red and, to me, who has had the opportunity to be around Ferrari's for most of my like, I wouldn't describe them as being orange red! Just goes to show that descriptors mean different things to different people!

I think the only solution is that we should all calibrate our eyes and then have one big meet up (and Dana, will you come because I like you too!)

 

[Jeffrey Hunt]

Actually, you may find that you really do need to have your eyes adjusted: http://www.xrite.com/custom_page.aspx?PageID=77

Beyond "subjectivity" we may all actually see color a bit differently. I don't think this is anything new though - just a bit of fun.

Notice the difference between men and women?

Good Luck!

Jeffrey Hunt

 

[lelser]

W00T! I got perfect colour vision . Does this mean I get to be a gem cutter?

Not only do people not have the same monitors, they don't have the same cones and rods. How we perceive colour is very different.

Cheers,

Lisa
www.lisaelser.com
www.greengemfoundation.com

 

[T L]

Interesting photos because it demonstrates the colour shift OR how photographs/lighting can make a gem look different!

Photo 1 for me was a beautiful hot pink with a bit of purple and red! Based on that photo I'd buy that gem!
Photo 2 was almost the same but showed a TINY bit of orange but I mean TINY bit!
Photo 3 looked brown orange and flat/lifeless (sorry Crasru) and had I seen that photo first I would have walked away!

Interestingly, I don't think in any of the photos it's a Ferrari red and, to me, who has had the opportunity to be around Ferrari's for most of my like, I wouldn't describe them as being orange red! Just goes to show that descriptors mean different things to different people!

I think the only solution is that we should all calibrate our eyes and then have one big meet up (and Dana, will you come because I like you too!)

In the book on spinels, the "Ferrari Red" that Crasru refers to isn't what you would imagine a red red to be. There are actually much redder, more saturated gems in that book without that descriptor. It's funny how marketing terms make you feel like something is super spectacular, but it isn't.

Now, as far as pricing is concerned on these stones, if the color shifts to some muddy color, that to me is important for the price points concerned. I would be very concerned about that. I guess this thread is getting to be what others might think of as "nitpicky," but it's not our money, and it's a lot of money. I would want the absolute best for the money I'm spending on a three carat spinel at those prices. I think something recently happened in the market with these spinels because the pricing seems to be skyrocketing, and I'm looking at them with old pricing in mind (which is also still kind of recent), but the new material lacks the saturation of the earlier material, even from one year ago. It is disturbing to say the least IMHO.

Now color is subjective, I understand that, and people have different ways of perceiving color, but at these price points, the color better damn well look gorgeous, even to the most experienced connosieur. For example, I've seen people with very little experience in collecting colored gems, drool at average colored gems, but when they see a vivid one, there's no doubt that unless you're totally color blind, it is an amazing sight to see. One of the most important aspects of collecting, as many of us concur, is that you should view lots and lots of fine material when you get the chance. It really does help to percieve these nuances in color that some people cannot see, at least I think so.

For example, a friend of mine started collecting mandarin spessartite garnets, she thought they were all beautiful until she saw a much finer one. It ruined her appreciation for the rest of her collection, but it helped her perceive the lack of saturation with the other stones.

 

[Arkteia]

OK I fixed my Solux lamp so hopefully I shall come up with better photos today...

These photos were posted not as much as to prove changes in color or difference in rod/cones but the issue of trust. Sorry, full disclosure is in FTC guidelines. And the vendor I bought this stone from had also sold me beautiful stones, some of them much better than in photos. Moreover, I think he is an excellent supplier and has good stock.

However... I feel that I have made many costly mistakes in my purchases,from different vendors, and while no one was holding a gun to my head to push me into buying this or that stone, certain lack of disclosure or extreme photoshopping have played a role. When I hear from a vendor that the spinel is blue and has no grey or at least he can not see it because he has brown eyes, and then I get a stone which definitely shows a grey shift, what would be the result? Lack of trust...

Other vendors have beautiful websites but are more than willing to provide "hand" photos of their stones. I can not praise enough Roger Dery who provided real-life photos of two of his stones. Unfortunately, my friend who was looking for a present for his wife felt that the stone was too small, but in the future, I would gladly buy from Roger because I know he is trustworthy. While I definitely feel that the spinel from Bespoke gem was orangey, he made an honest, unretouched photo of his stone so I see that I could trust him (I never yet purchased from him). Another vendor provided photos of his spinel (I am not naming him because I did not like the spinel). But the photos were realistic, so I would trust him in future purchases.

I was not happy with some spinels I have recently bought (not from the vendor that sold me the orange spinel) but at least I can not blame only myself because of my lack of knowledge and expertise. His photos were true to life.

It is not about rods and cones. It is about full disclosure.

 

[Jeffrey Hunt]

My post with the color test actually was a bit about rods and cones and was meant to be a little light-heated. It’s a fun exercise and very easy. If you haven’t tried it yet it might be a real “eye opener.”

I also agree about full disclosure, 100%. The more information a consumer has the better. Full disclosure reduces surprises and disappointments and helps pave the way to the trouble free acquisition of a cherished gem.

I have a question for all the color experts here though. How important are cultural preferences to specific colors in determining price? I’m sure the Pricescope community is made up of many members from many different cultures. I think it’s interesting, and actually important to think about this in terms of personal choice. Are cultural color preferences important in determining industry standards – or visa versa? Are the industry standards determined in New York, Idar-Oberstein or Hong-Kong? Certainly it’s not all about marketing. I’m quite curious what others think about this here.

I also think this is important information a consumer could use to advantage.

Kind Regards!

Jeffrey Hunt

 

[colorluvr]

I'm getting a "red" Tanzanian spinel this Friday from a US vendor. (not ebay) He described it as Red, but said if you shine a light on it from the back, it will show a bit of orange. It will be interesting to compare it with the photos and descriptions on this thread. I must have talked to him on the phone, about this stone (as far as the color was concerned) 5 times longer than I usually do about a stone. He's been in the business a long time and he was still having a difficult time explaining the color verbally and couldn't get a photo of the true color, so he just said he'd send me the stone to see for myself. He did say that it wasn't the "ultimate" red because of the orange it shows in some lighting, but he assured me it wasn't the color of my flame spinel, so we'll see.

I'll post pictures if I decide to keep it.