Stop the INSANITY!

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 8/22/2006 8:00:01 PM
Author: fire&ice

Ya know - my tenure here has been quite long - this is the first logical answer.

Makes sense.

I guess at the end of the day - the cutters is where the science, the eye & the skill becomes the art. Not too different in process than Leonardo Da Vinci.

Awesome. That's a great function of PS...the 'aha!' moments that are possible for anyone as we read all of the different perspectives.

Your DaVinci speculation and Cehra's follow-up comments are nicely put.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 8/23/2006 9:57:11 AM
Author: fire&ice

To understand anything one has to understand the history. And, with any art - most likely science is part of it. But, when science supercedes art - it''s not really understanding nor appreciating the object.

I wrote this article in July and hope you don''t mind if I reprint it here.


> Diamond buying: Emotional experience or math problem?

Professionals in the diamond industry hear warnings about "commoditization" at our trade conventions. We hear the warnings from traditionalists, from sellers and suppliers, from revered industry leaders. We hear the warnings from some of the most esteemed icons of our industry. But what does it mean?

It is about the reduction of an emotional experience to a mere set of numbers. That is the concern.

For many years diamond cutters were considered craftsmen and artists, like blacksmiths and carpenters (the best still are). As technology has moved forward, blacksmiths and carpenters have been replaced with automated manufacture. In diamond-cutting, auto-dialits and assembly line production have replaced the gray-haired cutter of old who took the rough through every step from blocking to brillianteering. However, the unalterable difference between ''smithing and diamond fashioning is that producing a diamond will never be like stamping out automobiles or pre-fabricated woodwork where pieces and parts are interchangeable. Our craft is unique.

Every piece of diamond rough took millions of years to form. Every diamond is a different story. Once mined from the earth each piece of rough is individually studied and analyzed. A different plan is developed for each piece to arrive at the shape, size and beauty that will be yielded. No two diamonds are perfectly alike; not in rough form nor polished. They may be comparable, but color, clarity and even cut differ from piece to finished piece. There are subdivisions within each color grade. There are microscopic elements of crystallization within each diamond that do not appear on a plot. There are aspects to the way the diamond was run on the wheel and took a polish that blend together to create its distinctiveness when finally viewed.

As we know, the cut of a diamond has the largest influence on its overall performance and can be expressed in differing terms. Proportions, cut estimators, 3D scans, natural reflectors and machines like Imagem and BrillianceScope can assign numbers. But numbers will never tell the story of the diamond''s birth, its crystallization over millions of years and the blending together of distinctive elements WITHIN the numbers that make it one-of-a-kind.

Traditionalists emphasize that a finished diamond is both a snowflake and an artist''s masterpiece. Its uniqueness is absolute; both in nature and in the treatment man has given it. It can never be replicated - and its singular, irreplaceable distinctiveness is the perfect expression for a giver, and the most its wearer could ever hope for.

The traditionalists are right of course.

Now there is concern among traditionalists that by reducing a diamond to a data stream we take away its romance. We remove its symbolic appeal, distinctiveness that can be measured only by the human eye and a history larger than life - and replace them with charts and graphs.

The information age has provided us with the ability to analyze the art of man and nature. We have powerful tools for measurement and analysis. We can place a number beside every facet. We can take analytic photographs at unreal magnifications. We have black boxes that assign values. For trade and factory analysts these things can empower more understanding and the ability to maximize beauty at the source. Certainly there are hundredths of degrees which can help our scientific understanding. However, any professional will tell you that once a diamond is within an acknowledged premium range the nuances of its specific appeal depend entirely on individual human taste and preference. To make such fine judgments, beauty can only be in the eyes of the beholder.

Let us consider the most important people, our clients: For those who will give and receive nature''s creation, crafted into shape by man''s hand, we should provide technical validation to put them at ease. But for the sake of our trade we have a responsibility to put less emphasis on a decimal point and be more sensitive to our clients'' appreciation for the emotional aspect of the diamond - which was his or her motivation for purchase in the first place!

Let us not convert someone shopping for a work of art & love into someone shopping for a tenth of a degree on crown facet number 8. To do so reduces the emotional experience to a math problem and reduces the meaningfulness of the service our trade can provide to our clients.

A healthy marriage of lab grading, parametric data and direct performance assessment should be enough for even the internet shopper''s desire for pedigree. By all means, provide validation our clients need to be comfortable in a purchase, but ultimate beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It is important for us to remember that when all is said and done it will be sparkle, not statistics, which cause the wearer to love the piece.

 

[Mara]

yes my ghetto car needs to be retired soon. it''s actually 14 years old now!!

but cars just aren''t important to me, it runs, gets me where i need to go, greg can keep it running forever and best of all ITS FREE. hehee.

re: the nordies bloomies niemans debate etc...here the nordies is DEFINITELY a cut above macys!! nordies is my ''staple'' store, where i go to get my basics but their savvy and TBD dept has some really cute fashionable stuff, and many of the brands that are in magazines for fashion...as well as juicy and all the high end jean manufacturers that i love. also their shoe dept is FAB. bloomies and neimans are higher end than nordies here though it sounds like bloomies has gone more mainstream in the last 5 years so it''s maybe coming down a bit to be more mass USA kinda thing. i just got a neimans card because i never shop there and i was getting a pair of kate spade sunglasses that were a fab price and i couldn''t use my regular card!!! so now i have this neimans card and we NEVER go there. fabulous. but i really wanted those glasses. haha.

 

[Rod]

Date: 8/23/2006 12:54:00 PM
Author: Mara
yes my ghetto car needs to be retired soon. it''s actually 14 years old now!!

but cars just aren''t important to me, it runs, gets me where i need to go, greg can keep it running forever and best of all ITS FREE. hehee.

re: the nordies bloomies niemans debate etc...here the nordies is DEFINITELY a cut above macys!! nordies is my ''staple'' store, where i go to get my basics but their savvy and TBD dept has some really cute fashionable stuff, and many of the brands that are in magazines for fashion...as well as juicy and all the high end jean manufacturers that i love. also their shoe dept is FAB. bloomies and neimans are higher end than nordies here though it sounds like bloomies has gone more mainstream in the last 5 years so it''s maybe coming down a bit to be more mass USA kinda thing. i just got a neimans card because i never shop there and i was getting a pair of kate spade sunglasses that were a fab price and i couldn''t use my regular card!!! so now i have this neimans card and we NEVER go there. fabulous. but i really wanted those glasses. haha.

I wound up just leaving my potential purchase with the sales person as I wasn''t aware they only took Am Ex or you could write a check, but who walks around with a check book anymore. They offered me a Nieman card, but I just hate credit cards, so they just don''t get my business. Funny that you consider Nordies a "staples" store. Amazing what happens to us as we learn to appreciate better quality and service!!!!

 

[Mara]

Date: 8/23/2006 12:59:26 PM
Author: Rod

Date: 8/23/2006 12:54:00 PM
Author: Mara
yes my ghetto car needs to be retired soon. it''s actually 14 years old now!!

but cars just aren''t important to me, it runs, gets me where i need to go, greg can keep it running forever and best of all ITS FREE. hehee.

re: the nordies bloomies niemans debate etc...here the nordies is DEFINITELY a cut above macys!! nordies is my ''staple'' store, where i go to get my basics but their savvy and TBD dept has some really cute fashionable stuff, and many of the brands that are in magazines for fashion...as well as juicy and all the high end jean manufacturers that i love. also their shoe dept is FAB. bloomies and neimans are higher end than nordies here though it sounds like bloomies has gone more mainstream in the last 5 years so it''s maybe coming down a bit to be more mass USA kinda thing. i just got a neimans card because i never shop there and i was getting a pair of kate spade sunglasses that were a fab price and i couldn''t use my regular card!!! so now i have this neimans card and we NEVER go there. fabulous. but i really wanted those glasses. haha.

I wound up just leaving my potential purchase with the sales person as I wasn''t aware they only took Am Ex or you could write a check, but who walks around with a check book anymore. They offered me a Nieman card, but I just hate credit cards, so they just don''t get my business. Funny that you consider Nordies a ''staples'' store. Amazing what happens to us as we learn to appreciate better quality and service!!!!

thats so true rod. i would have just left the glasses and the store but i wanted them SO badly and i don''t typically carry much cash or a checkbook, i just charge most things to my main card (we get miles) and pay it at the end of the month. re: the service, it''s very true...i grew up shopping at macys but when i was on my own i gravitated to nordies more and i realized i liked their store (cleaner, more organized, more stylish) and service much better. i love that nordstroms will take back my nike free shoes, worn twice to class, and give me a refund because they didn''t work out for me, whereas macys would probably say no because i''d worn them out of the house. nordstroms has the best customer service probably of any dept store. so i don''t mind giving them a bit more money than if i shopped elsewhere because they earn it.

 

[Rod]

Date: 8/23/2006 1:04:59 PM
Author: Mara

Date: 8/23/2006 12:59:26 PM
Author: Rod

Date: 8/23/2006 12:54:00 PM
Author: Mara
yes my ghetto car needs to be retired soon. it''s actually 14 years old now!!

but cars just aren''t important to me, it runs, gets me where i need to go, greg can keep it running forever and best of all ITS FREE. hehee.

re: the nordies bloomies niemans debate etc...here the nordies is DEFINITELY a cut above macys!! nordies is my ''staple'' store, where i go to get my basics but their savvy and TBD dept has some really cute fashionable stuff, and many of the brands that are in magazines for fashion...as well as juicy and all the high end jean manufacturers that i love. also their shoe dept is FAB. bloomies and neimans are higher end than nordies here though it sounds like bloomies has gone more mainstream in the last 5 years so it''s maybe coming down a bit to be more mass USA kinda thing. i just got a neimans card because i never shop there and i was getting a pair of kate spade sunglasses that were a fab price and i couldn''t use my regular card!!! so now i have this neimans card and we NEVER go there. fabulous. but i really wanted those glasses. haha.

I wound up just leaving my potential purchase with the sales person as I wasn''t aware they only took Am Ex or you could write a check, but who walks around with a check book anymore. They offered me a Nieman card, but I just hate credit cards, so they just don''t get my business. Funny that you consider Nordies a ''staples'' store. Amazing what happens to us as we learn to appreciate better quality and service!!!!

thats so true rod. i would have just left the glasses and the store but i wanted them SO badly and i don''t typically carry much cash or a checkbook, i just charge most things to my main card (we get miles) and pay it at the end of the month. re: the service, it''s very true...i grew up shopping at macys but when i was on my own i gravitated to nordies more and i realized i liked their store (cleaner, more organized, more stylish) and service much better. i love that nordstroms will take back my nike free shoes, worn twice to class, and give me a refund because they didn''t work out for me, whereas macys would probably say no because i''d worn them out of the house. nordstroms has the best customer service probably of any dept store. so i don''t mind giving them a bit more money than if i shopped elsewhere because they earn it.

Funny you should mention that. At one point, I went on a Tommy Bahama, Nat Nast buying spree and I had purchased brand new from Nordstrom like 10 new shirts, all XL., to go around my too large tummy. So, I took them home, removed the tags, hung them in my closet and of course, they were "nice" shirts and we don''t wear the good stuff unless it''s a special occassion, so for months these shirts just sat there. Then I lost all the weight and the Xl''s looked like tents on me, so when I menionted to our "shopper" I had all these Bahama and Nast shirts I couldn''t wear, she said.......bring them back and you can exchange them for anything you want!!! Man, some of them were over 8 months old, but I took them back and all of the sudden I had over $1200 to buy new clothes with!!! With service like that, they''ve won a customer for life.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 8/23/2006 9:57:11 AM
Author: fire&ice

To understand anything one has to understand the history. And, with any art - most likely science is part of it. But, when science supercedes art - it's not really understanding nor appreciating the object.

For some, appreciating the numbers isn't ignoring the art. It's giving equal weight to both.

And then for others, the romance to them is a mental seduction - it's in the numbers.

The beauty of "art" is that it speaks differently to every listener. With music, John Q. might appreciate the music for its arrangement, melding of notes and themes, etc. He may appreciate it from a technical aspect. I, on the other, may appreciate it just because it sounds beautiful to my ear. It's still art, and it's still beautiful, but we can both admire different features of it.

Not everyone has to appreciate the same aspects.....I figure, as long as they appreciate it in whatever way makes sense for them, great.

I'm fine with you appreciating the art of diamonds in any way that resonates with you.....and I want to be entitled to same.

 

[WinkHPD]

Rod, congratulations on the weight, I know from many years of trying how hard it can be.

I finally quit trying and just changed my lifestyle, eat healthy and stick to 2000 caleries a day whether I need them or not and have taken off 38 pounds since February.

Wife wanted to clean out the closets and throw away all my old clothes a few weeks ago. I started trying on some older suits, about 3k worth of them that I have not worn in years. Wow, they all fit! Ended up throwing away a lot of old clothes (Resa took them to the salvation army or goodwill) but they were the "old" big clothes that I will never need again, not my older can''t fit them any more clothes, because now I can...

Wink

 

[Rod]

Date: 8/23/2006 1:33:33 PM
Author: Wink
Rod, congratulations on the weight, I know from many years of trying how hard it can be.

I finally quit trying and just changed my lifestyle, eat healthy and stick to 2000 caleries a day whether I need them or not and have taken off 38 pounds since February.

Wife wanted to clean out the closets and throw away all my old clothes a few weeks ago. I started trying on some older suits, about 3k worth of them that I have not worn in years. Wow, they all fit! Ended up throwing away a lot of old clothes (Resa took them to the salvation army or goodwill) but they were the ''old'' big clothes that I will never need again, not my older can''t fit them any more clothes, because now I can...

Wink

Congratulations Wink. Losing weight is a tough battle, but it seems you''re doing quite well indeed. Also good that you got rid of your big clothes. My philosophy throughout my weight loss has been that as soon something became too large, it had to go. To keep it gave me license to get fat again. What I''ve been "told" is that if I ever gain the weight back, I''d better like the men''s shop at Walmart as I won''t be permitted to buy in nicer stores ever again. Believe me, that helps me not gain any weight. Shudder the thought of buying my wardrobe at Walmart........(no offense to those who do!)

 

[pricescope]

Date: 8/23/2006 1:17:40 PM
Author: aljdewey

The beauty of 'art' is that it speaks differently to every listener. With music, John Q. might appreciate the music for its arrangement, melding of notes and themes, etc. He may appreciate it from a technical aspect. I, on the other, may appreciate it just because it sounds beautiful to my ear. It's still art, and it's still beautiful, but we can both admire different features of it.

Not everyone has to appreciate the same aspects.....I figure, as long as they appreciate it in whatever way makes sense for them, great.

I'm fine with you appreciating the art of diamonds in any way that resonates with you.....and I want to be entitled to same.

That is so true Al. Let's talk sport - for an outsider any dressage horse would look pretty, looking at 20 horses performing the same routine in the competition is boring though still pretty.

Only those who understand the "numbers" of executing each of the moves can judge the difference between horses AND enjoy it.

Fill in the blank with baseball, hockey...

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 8/23/2006 3:20:37 PM
Author: Pricescope

That is so true Al. Let''s talk sport - for an outsider any dressage horse would look pretty, looking at 20 horses performing the same routine in the competition is boring though still pretty.

Only those who understand the ''numbers'' of executing each of the moves can judge the difference between horses AND enjoy it.

Good horse sense.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 8/23/2006 3:20:37 PM
Author: Pricescope

Date: 8/23/2006 1:17:40 PM
Author: aljdewey

The beauty of ''art'' is that it speaks differently to every listener. With music, John Q. might appreciate the music for its arrangement, melding of notes and themes, etc. He may appreciate it from a technical aspect. I, on the other, may appreciate it just because it sounds beautiful to my ear. It''s still art, and it''s still beautiful, but we can both admire different features of it.

Not everyone has to appreciate the same aspects.....I figure, as long as they appreciate it in whatever way makes sense for them, great.

I''m fine with you appreciating the art of diamonds in any way that resonates with you.....and I want to be entitled to same.

That is so true Al. Let''s talk sport - for an outsider any dressage horse would look pretty, looking at 20 horses performing the same routine in the competition is boring though still pretty.

Only those who understand the ''numbers'' of executing each of the moves can judge the difference between horses AND enjoy it.

Feel the blank with baseball, hockey...

Amen......said MUCH better (and much much shorter) than I was able to manage. Nicely done!