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Stop the INSANITY!
- Thread starter fire&ice
- Start date
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Richard Sherwood
Ideal_Rock
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For me, researching diamonds is like any pursuit combining art and science, such as photography.
You learn as much technique as you can handle, you think about what you''d like to capture, then you try to forget the technique and go for the vision!
Of course, you keep up with new technology and see what it can do for you. You also review your parameters constantly, and sometimes you challenge those parameters to obtain a certain effect. But it''s a balance.
I love that there are clever experts and specialists who keep the dialogue going, but my life is happier and saner if I keep a certain amount of distance!
You learn as much technique as you can handle, you think about what you''d like to capture, then you try to forget the technique and go for the vision!
Of course, you keep up with new technology and see what it can do for you. You also review your parameters constantly, and sometimes you challenge those parameters to obtain a certain effect. But it''s a balance.
I love that there are clever experts and specialists who keep the dialogue going, but my life is happier and saner if I keep a certain amount of distance!
Regular Guy
Ideal_Rock
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what emeraldlover said.Date: 8/20/2006 11:03:47 PM
Author: emeraldlover
For me, researching diamonds is like any pursuit combining art and science, such as photography.
You learn as much technique as you can handle, you think about what you'd like to capture, then you try to forget the technique and go for the vision!
Of course, you keep up with new technology and see what it can do for you. You also review your parameters constantly, and sometimes you challenge those parameters to obtain a certain effect. But it's a balance.
I love that there are clever experts and specialists who keep the dialogue going, but my life is happier and saner if I keep a certain amount of distance!
Art Nouveau
Brilliant_Rock
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Great topic and I agree with you. Techology is great, but a diamond does not have to be perfect in all the numbers to look good. Most people buy their first diamond when they get engaged. It should be a fun and romantic experience. When you get too technical, some people get overwhelmed with too much information that they do not understand and frustrated that they can''t find a stone that''s perfect enough. Then. the romance is taken out of the experience. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. People shouldn''t say things like "you should never go beow an "F" in an a Asscher" or ''you should never settle for less than "Ex/EX". I believe your eyes are the best judge of beauty and I would never buy a stone without seeing it first. All the extra ''bells and whistles'' reports and images are really tools to help the internet retailer sell diamonds. When you are buying online, the GIA report does not really tell you for sure if you like the appearance of the stone. The Sarin reports and ideal scope images do provdie more information to those who wish to buy online so they can better predict how good the stone will look, and in that respect they are useful.
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Re: My head is going to explode. Diamonds are an art form. Diamonds are not an exact science. Any data can be manipulated. Any data has rounding or margin for error. Any eye can prefer one stone over the other. The prefered *Ideal* is in the EYE of the beholder.
It is one side of coin. Other side:
Not only data can be manipulated. Seller can use specific light conditions, specific sample to shift your opinion.
It is reason why consumer need some absolute reference. It is reason why some gadgets( FS, IS, BS ) and AGS cut reports are popular.
It is one side of coin. Other side:
Not only data can be manipulated. Seller can use specific light conditions, specific sample to shift your opinion.
It is reason why consumer need some absolute reference. It is reason why some gadgets( FS, IS, BS ) and AGS cut reports are popular.
Regular Guy
Ideal_Rock
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Must be the drive for model building for understanding, rather than to seeking out "feelings" for direct measurement
But this example makes me want to proof check, I am motivated to think an idea like the Prisoner''s Dilema may be behind your idea, but I can''t quite get my arms around it.
Was that what you had in mind?
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You are so so right on this. I love my 60/60. Many here would have rejected this stone on numbers alone. Yet, it's beautiful and scored a 1.2 on the HCA. For many, myself included, we have immersed ourselves in diamond specs. And people come on PS asking for the best (expert) advice hoping to avoid making a poor buying decision. This is, in my opinion, where the wagon falls a little short. Recently, I even wound up criticising a diamond purchase because:Date: 8/20/2006 7:54:32 PM
Author: fire&ice
But - and a big butt - Who is the person deciding what is 'worth doing right'?What is right? With me, science be darned.
I'm seeing too much dismissing and less discussion about the negatives & the POSTIVES of a stone.
Nothing new here - I'm a rebel in that I LOVE blue fluor. Instead of dissing it, the Cap't said that someone told him that perfect 'ideal' diamonds couldn't come from fluor rough. Made sense. Still didn't care -To me - a perpective not a rule. What outways the other? Personal.
1. The diamond's specs were ok, but not stellar - and
2. The diamond was being purchased through a family connection and was supposed to be a great deal.
In my opinion, the diamond wasn't the deal it was supposed to be and the specs, while OK, weren't ideal, but the lady kept saying she felt the diamond was all "ideals" according to the seller and some other resources they had checked.
So, what was I doing in this discussion? I'm not an expert. I own a 60/60 stone and the stone they were considering was in essence a 60/60 and here I was telling them they could do better.
So, I agree that we often get too caught up in the numbers. If a potential stone has acceptable numbers and it has been seen by the buyer, who are we to nit pick it to death?
Thanks for starting this thread. It's most interesting and appreciated.
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Great thread! I've been collecting since the late 1960's, when there were no "specs" available to consumers and "hearts and arrows" was merely a gleam in some marketing major's eye.
These are the only rules I follow:
If it makes my jaw drop when I see it, I buy it.
If I have doubts, I don't buy it.
These are the only rules I follow:
If it makes my jaw drop when I see it, I buy it.
If I have doubts, I don't buy it.
pricescope
Ideal_Rock
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Ira, i see it more like Buridan's ass paradox: a donkey confronted by two equally desirable and accessible bales of hay, must necessarily starve while pondering a decision.
It's not always the case, but nobody wants an Internet consumer to starve to death between virtually same diamonds, an extra info may play a role of an extra straw in the right (pun intended) haystack. Or the left. Or the right...
Someone asked in this thread "What's right?" For me it's "To have a right to have the right amount of info to make a right decision for each individual."
It's not always the case, but nobody wants an Internet consumer to starve to death between virtually same diamonds, an extra info may play a role of an extra straw in the right (pun intended) haystack. Or the left. Or the right...
Someone asked in this thread "What's right?" For me it's "To have a right to have the right amount of info to make a right decision for each individual."
decodelighted
Super_Ideal_Rock
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I think the "Ideal Crowd" has more traction & momentum for one simple reason:
If you DO have the guts or vision to go "off the board" of generally accepted stats ... ya may be hesitant to keep bringing attention to the so-called "negative" qualities of your beloved stone in order to give NEWBIES advice.
For example: how many times do I really want to "pimp" how awesome my non-Stmdr-approved Asscher is ... and recap the details of how it doesn''t meet his critera?
It''s kinda "no win" ... cause no one else can SEE what I''m SEEING, as clearly as I can ... and it leaves a kind of tainted perception of the very piece that''s so adored by me.
As much as I''d like to encourage NEWBIES to think outside the box ... look "off the board" ... don''t drink the Super Ideal/#s/Gizmos Kool-Aid ...& be an example of such ... it really depends on my mood at the moment -- how willing I am to open up that "non-ideal" can of whoop-a** all over my Precious.
If you DO have the guts or vision to go "off the board" of generally accepted stats ... ya may be hesitant to keep bringing attention to the so-called "negative" qualities of your beloved stone in order to give NEWBIES advice.
For example: how many times do I really want to "pimp" how awesome my non-Stmdr-approved Asscher is ... and recap the details of how it doesn''t meet his critera?
It''s kinda "no win" ... cause no one else can SEE what I''m SEEING, as clearly as I can ... and it leaves a kind of tainted perception of the very piece that''s so adored by me.
As much as I''d like to encourage NEWBIES to think outside the box ... look "off the board" ... don''t drink the Super Ideal/#s/Gizmos Kool-Aid ...& be an example of such ... it really depends on my mood at the moment -- how willing I am to open up that "non-ideal" can of whoop-a** all over my Precious.
aljdewey
Ideal_Rock
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Regular Guy
Ideal_Rock
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Let''s not get Goofy (otherwise associated with conjecture about new planets
).
This is all just words, right? F&I, though you''re exaggerating to make a point, don''t go too far...go back to talking about balance, which is necessary. Otherwise, no strategy is reasonable, except to, when shopping, look at one after another, after another. Why not start with an initial sort...which something like the "search by cut" db allows you to do.
Rod, you''re whining, but the diamond you bought scored 1.2. What''s the problem. You give
to others, and can do so with confidence, because there is a basis for it.
Actually, or so from what I read here, preferences may run toward symmetry, but...and I believe both AGS and GIA will say this... they are more reliably drawn towards good delivery of light, such that H&A are not scored, but grading is heavily dependent on proportions. And why not, study of optics can help predict when light delivery will be good. Now...consideration of things like head getting in the way...yes...this is pretty much beyond me. So...I will step out and say that good light performance and beauty run pretty well hand in hand. I don''t think our range of preferences varies wildly from this.
Anyway, regarding Buridan''s Ass, Leonid...although this site (see the last paragraph) discussed how the Chinese resolve this sometimes, note that it is context sensitive. In celebrating the new year, I will turn, too, to the I Ching, because a) you go through a process to contemplate the outcome (and you are trying to get an understanding of the environment of the new year you''re entering) and b) there is little specific info to draw upon, so it''s reasonable to project forward based on the creative template the I Ching provides. In contrast, I would rather sort through a Pricescope db, and make bad guesses with Idealscopes when diamond shopping...finally yielding to whatever set of choices I could make for myself at the end based on eye sight (and hopefully, getting myself in an environment where there could be a big set of choices from which to make a confirming pick, if possible). If the big set of choices is not possible, you can bet I''ll want to take advantage of whatever grace period to ultimately get this option (of comparing to others), if not before, then after the purchase decision, because shopping by eye, in the end, is all you have.
We have tools. Lets not disparage them too much. Balance, of course, too.
Regards,
You know what they say about history....those who do not learn from it, are doomed to repeat it.
This is all just words, right? F&I, though you''re exaggerating to make a point, don''t go too far...go back to talking about balance, which is necessary. Otherwise, no strategy is reasonable, except to, when shopping, look at one after another, after another. Why not start with an initial sort...which something like the "search by cut" db allows you to do.
Rod, you''re whining, but the diamond you bought scored 1.2. What''s the problem. You give
Actually, or so from what I read here, preferences may run toward symmetry, but...and I believe both AGS and GIA will say this... they are more reliably drawn towards good delivery of light, such that H&A are not scored, but grading is heavily dependent on proportions. And why not, study of optics can help predict when light delivery will be good. Now...consideration of things like head getting in the way...yes...this is pretty much beyond me. So...I will step out and say that good light performance and beauty run pretty well hand in hand. I don''t think our range of preferences varies wildly from this.
Anyway, regarding Buridan''s Ass, Leonid...although this site (see the last paragraph) discussed how the Chinese resolve this sometimes, note that it is context sensitive. In celebrating the new year, I will turn, too, to the I Ching, because a) you go through a process to contemplate the outcome (and you are trying to get an understanding of the environment of the new year you''re entering) and b) there is little specific info to draw upon, so it''s reasonable to project forward based on the creative template the I Ching provides. In contrast, I would rather sort through a Pricescope db, and make bad guesses with Idealscopes when diamond shopping...finally yielding to whatever set of choices I could make for myself at the end based on eye sight (and hopefully, getting myself in an environment where there could be a big set of choices from which to make a confirming pick, if possible). If the big set of choices is not possible, you can bet I''ll want to take advantage of whatever grace period to ultimately get this option (of comparing to others), if not before, then after the purchase decision, because shopping by eye, in the end, is all you have.
We have tools. Lets not disparage them too much. Balance, of course, too.
Regards,
devientdrow
Brilliant_Rock
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I understand what your saying but sometimes I think the newbs get overwhelmed by the "Ideal Crowd". I''ve seen lots of new people on here post a stone that they say they have seen in person, like and can get a great deal on and they are asking if it seems like a good buy. I''ve seen a lot of people start steamrolling on how it''s ok...and it could be a good stone...BUT if they go to these next 5 links they can a PERFECTLY cut stone. I understand a lot of people will respond to that with "Well i''m just letting them know what I think and what else is out there, they don''t HAVE to follow it." But I think they end up getting steamrolled into it sometimes. I mean think about it. Your new on here, you know nothing about diamonds really...and you have like 10 or so people giving a strong push in another direction. If your already wary and sort of scared about your purchase you may find yourself more confused than you started out. I don''t think a lot of new people understand eithier. I personally like this balance thats been brought up a few times. When anyone has asked my opinion for a stone I like checking out the numbers of it if only to merely be educated on it. There are certain stats that are going to be important to me. But I also know enough that if the stats are good, even if they aren''t THE BEST and the stone looks great and it''s a good deal. Well I know thats a good buy. I think some already confused and lost people could come on here and leave thinking that anything under an AGS000 isn''t worth buying, and thats kinda sad.Date: 8/21/2006 12:46:50 PM
Author: decodelighted
I think the ''Ideal Crowd'' has more traction & momentum for one simple reason:
If you DO have the guts or vision to go ''off the board'' of generally accepted stats ... ya may be hesitant to keep bringing attention to the so-called ''negative'' qualities of your beloved stone in order to give NEWBIES advice.
For example: how many times do I really want to ''pimp'' how awesome my non-Stmdr-approved Asscher is ... and recap the details of how it doesn''t meet his critera?
It''s kinda ''no win'' ... cause no one else can SEE what I''m SEEING, as clearly as I can ... and it leaves a kind of tainted perception of the very piece that''s so adored by me.
As much as I''d like to encourage NEWBIES to think outside the box ... look ''off the board'' ... don''t drink the Super Ideal/#s/Gizmos Kool-Aid ...& be an example of such ... it really depends on my mood at the moment -- how willing I am to open up that ''non-ideal'' can of whoop-a** all over my Precious.
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Ideal_Rock
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Definietely a language barrier. Beauty, in general including people, art, cats, can not be measured scientifically as absolute. No two people will agree with what is optimum beauty. In the end numbers are irrelavent. Science can not predict what someone will think the most beautiful will be. The study I refered to (Ira - for you also) was regarding people. Symmetric looking people, more than not, were usually put in the beauty pile.
But, many people may agree on what is NOT beautiful. I don''t think anyone here will embraced a stone that is poorly cut. Just not agree on what ultimate beauty may be.
Yeah, a balance is what I am trying to propose. The stone mentioned wasn''t really what prompted me to be the hellion Rich suggested I was
aljdewey
Ideal_Rock
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In my very humble opinion, the answer is yes and no.
Yes, there is a lack of balance, and no, it's not blasphemy to tout other than super-ideal, by-the-numbers stones.
But....why is there a lack of balance? Because those of you who aren't the super-douper louper types don't add your perspective when a new poster comes here asking for input.
For those of you lamenting the lack of balance, you have the power to change that by contributing. There are tons of you who like buying with less info and buying stones that are beautiful but non-ideal-conforming....you, Deco, F&I, Rod, etc. But the only one I ever see participating in those threads trying to bring the balance is Rod.
If more of you offered your insights when people came asking about "how do I find a great diamond, etc. etc.", it would be more balanced. People would get the cut-freak opinions AND the beauty opinions.....best of both. Each person could the decide for himself which resonates to him.
AND.....some may even decide that BOTH perspectives resonate to them, and they will do both. They will narrow selections according to the paper and then use their eyes as the final determinant on their selections.
It just rankles me to have someone say "that's more information than needed". Maybe to you, but not to me.
It rankles me that the suggested way to achieve balance is to call for cut-freaks to stop providing information on what they feel is valuable to them instead of calling for those who value buying by eye to be more vocal.
And it rankles me that people have to pick one or the other and cannot appreciate that beauty and technical appreciation can co-exist peacefully.
Beauty cuts could be different for different people( Like different beauty cars). No problem. Beauty is not Ideal.Date: 8/21/2006 1:19:12 PM
Author: fire&ice
Definietely a language barrier. Beauty, in general including people, art, cats, can not be measured scientifically as absolute. No two people will agree with what is optimum beauty. In the end numbers are irrelavent. Science can not predict what someone will think the most beautiful will be. The study I refered to (Ira - for you also) was regarding people. Symmetric looking people, more than not, were usually put in the beauty pile.
But, many people may agree on what is NOT beautiful. I don''t think anyone here will embraced a stone that is poorly cut. Just not agree on what ultimate beauty may be.
Yeah, a balance is what I am trying to propose. The stone mentioned wasn''t really what prompted me to be the hellion Rich suggested I wasI suggested a stone within a persons budget, within the desired inventory of a particular vendor w/ stats like tolerant mm d 60.7 - t 56 thin to med girdle with (gosh forbid) only sym/pol as VG/G - And, was told I must have posted it in jest. Something''s got to give.
Cutters can copy different beauty diamonds.
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Ira......I didn''t think I was whining. My point was simple. My stone would not appeal to some on PS because the specs are not ideal. I didn''t know until long after I purchased my stone that it scored a 1.2 on the HCA. My rock was originally graded by GIA before the new grading reports. I didn''t get a sarin on my stone. I never saw an Ideal Scope. I just bought a stone, which to my eyes was fantastic in all sorts of light and was one I could afford. Once I received the updated GIA report after owning the stone for a few months, I was then able to plug the numbers in HCA, which confirmed the fact that my Very Good stone, was perhaps better than Very Good to begin with.Date: 8/21/2006 1:04:09 PM
Author: Regular Guy
Let''s not get Goofy (otherwise associated with conjecture about new planets).
You know what they say about history....those who do not learn from it, are doomed to repeat it.
This is all just words, right? F&I, though you''re exaggerating to make a point, don''t go too far...go back to talking about balance, which is necessary. Otherwise, no strategy is reasonable, except to, when shopping, look at one after another, after another. Why not start with an initial sort...which something like the ''search by cut'' db allows you to do.
Rod, you''re whining, but the diamond you bought scored 1.2. What''s the problem. You giveto others, and can do so with confidence, because there is a basis for it.
Actually, or so from what I read here, preferences may run toward symmetry, but...and I believe both AGS and GIA will say this... they are more reliably drawn towards good delivery of light, such that H&A are not scored, but grading is heavily dependent on proportions. And why not, study of optics can help predict when light delivery will be good. Now...consideration of things like head getting in the way...yes...this is pretty much beyond me. So...I will step out and say that good light performance and beauty run pretty well hand in hand. I don''t think our range of preferences varies wildly from this.
Anyway, regarding Buridan''s Ass, Leonid...although this site (see the last paragraph) discussed how the Chinese resolve this sometimes, note that it is context sensitive. In celebrating the new year, I will turn, too, to the I Ching, because a) you go through a process to contemplate the outcome (and you are trying to get an understanding of the environment of the new year you''re entering) and b) there is little specific info to draw upon, so it''s reasonable to project forward based on the creative template the I Ching provides. In contrast, I would rather sort through a Pricescope db, and make bad guesses with Idealscopes when diamond shopping...finally yielding to whatever set of choices I could make for myself at the end based on eye sight (and hopefully, getting myself in an environment where there could be a big set of choices from which to make a confirming pick, if possible). If the big set of choices is not possible, you can bet I''ll want to take advantage of whatever grace period to ultimately get this option (of comparing to others), if not before, then after the purchase decision, because shopping by eye, in the end, is all you have.
We have tools. Lets not disparage them too much. Balance, of course, too.
Regards,
If that''s whinny...........I''ll just whine away..........
devientdrow
Brilliant_Rock
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- Nov 28, 2005
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- 557
I think people who aren''t super douper louper types TRY and put their .02 in but really it''s fruitless. I know there have been a few posts before where I try and and put something in there and it really just doesn''t matter when after I put something in about not disregarding a stone completly it''s followed up but 10 posts of people saying just the opposite. Maybe that sounds like I would be giving up or not trying my best to promote balance, but really I come on here to read about and admire diamonds, relax and enjoy myself. So I for the most part, don''t even try anymore.
aljdewey
Ideal_Rock
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Rod, I don''t think you''re being whiny.
Thanks for sharing this, because I think this is a perfect example of how different people have different styles. You bought without any of tools that I like to have when I buy.....and you did so COMFORTABLY. Bravo!
If that''s a comfortable way for you to buy, then you absolutely should do it. And if my way is comfortable for me, I should be able to do that. One size does not fit all, so no one should have to be comfortable with someone else''s buying criteria.
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Ideal_Rock
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aljdewey
Ideal_Rock
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I guess I don''t understand that. It''s fruitless why? Because you''re in the minority of opinions? Why is it fruitless because ten other people say the opposite?
Those ten people don''t negate your opinion.....it''s still valid on its own.
Look, I''m clearly in the minority opinion in this discussion, and it doesn''t stop me from sharing my less-popular viewpoint.
I can also appreciate that some folks get tired of trying to promote balance, but if that''s true, then I feel like you can''t complain about the lack of it. If you want balance, do something to make it happen. Balance doesn''t mean an equal number of opinions on either side - it''s not a tug-of-war, and it''s not a popularity contest.
If your opinion is "follow the eye" and ten others say "follow the paper", your opinion might be the only one that resonates to someone asking.
Regular Guy
Ideal_Rock
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F&I...I think this got you going. (I say let''s get Al out there to move one of those bales of hay!
)
Maybe simply put...it''s nice to have a diamond you like. If you''ve gone through a process that you felt helped you find it, it''s nice if you can share that process with others, so that they can find one that they like, too, based on your advice.....rather than only be able to say....if you like it, don''t be afraid to buy it.
Maybe simply put...it''s nice to have a diamond you like. If you''ve gone through a process that you felt helped you find it, it''s nice if you can share that process with others, so that they can find one that they like, too, based on your advice.....rather than only be able to say....if you like it, don''t be afraid to buy it.
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