Real People Are Dying / Trump Kills

[Tekate]

1ofakind said:

"You brought up specific people, not me. I didn’t ( and often don’t) respond to a person by name because my intention is not to start an argument with a specific person but respond to a topic/concept."

Tekate says: except that you did.

You have certainly referred to me without saying my nick because somehow that makes it all alright in your head, it's not.

You were OBVIOUSLY referring to me when you replied to @Queenie60 and @Dancing Fire .

Post #323 to @Dancing Fire

You said:

"I know. I am a little disappointed in myself....maybe I’ll blame stress from quarantine but it is just so endless and ridiculous and endless....it’s just not worth it. It reminds me of talking to my dad, who one time went on a 20 minute rant against using cruise control. Maybe I should get him to join here. He won’t ever talk about jewelry but I think if I start the right posts he and this one might just go around and around since they both enjoy it so much."

Tekate says:

"So who is THIS ONE (It is me of course)".

If ONE has to go round and round it's because the person who is being addressed is missing the point or unable to grasp the point - but IF I think a person doesn't have the ability to 'get it' then I move on.

To say "I enjoy it so much" is judging my intentions and you are incorrect, what I am hoping for is ONE person to say "I read it and here's what I think is wrong with that article and here's my article to read, That would be copacetic! a right wing person engaging in a real back and forth, both parties with their facts to figure out which is fact or lies (but this has never happened that I can remember but I'm always hoping.) also (I guess by it you mean discussing Trumps lack of intelligence ability to solve this Covid-19 problem, etc etc)

1ofakind said to @Queenie60 post #284

"I thought maybe DF was redefining ‘Win’ as endlessly ranting in a semi-coherent manner, responding to the voices in one‘s head as opposed to the comments/arguments actually stated and then digging in based on a predetermined political view rather than engaging critical thinking skills. Then when the opponent walks away from the crazy and unstable argument it is counted as a win.

But maybe that’s not what he meant."

If your post to Queenie wan't snarky, rude, unkind and wrong and judgemental to boot, then I don't know what is, because THAT post you are referring to has PLENTY of pointers to supporting information,

Tekate says last but neat least:

@1ofakind I have never said I can't be wrong. I'd prefer you answered my posts rather than complain they are rants like you said your father did , or how you claim my posts are wrong Are they unsupported @1ofakind? that's the question, are they unsupported by facts:

I have NEVER said I cannot change my POV if I'm proven wrong and I have changed my views because someone enlightened me.. I'd be thrilled if all right wing posters had pointers to why they believe what they do. If it turns people have to have to read long posts then so be it but they will be misinformed at the least, perhaps believing in something that isn't true.

If I don't back up my points then all my statements are just my opinion which isn't worth the bytes typed because it's just an opinion, facts is facts, If I post something to back up what I am saying and you post another opinion, we can disseminate and discuss, or we can walk away in fairness and mutual agreement.

I hope you never refer to me as 'semi-coherent' again. I hope you never infer I have 'not used critical thinking skills" again, I hope we can both contribute with supporting information on both sides.

 

[Queenie60]

I sincerely appreciate and respect your posing this question earnestly, so I will attempt to respond - from my viewpoint only. But it’s not a simple question to answer ... and no, it’s not “because his combover’s sexy”.

I think the first clarification you (and Missy) might consider accepting in asking this is: just because someone doesn’t vote “Democrat” does not mean they “support Trump”; in other words, just because our “first choice” didn't get the nod, doesn’t mean we abandon all other principles that lead to something other than an ”D” on our voter registration. For the record, and as is easily verifiable via a search from my 2016 posts, I supported and primary-voted for Ted Cruz in 2016. And, It’s been stated many times on here by some brave enough to admit it that we voted for Trump while pinching our noses. From the sounds of things, a few Demorats admit facing the same predicament for Biden and for similar reasons, so perhaps they can articulate another perspective if/when they do, assuming he actually makes it to the convention, gets the nod, then makes it to November (I have my doubts).

I think it’d also be helpful to first consider how those who ask this question define the term “support”. Does it mean make campaign donations? Volunteer for the campaign? Knock on doors/make calls on behalf of candidate? Wear a MAGA-hat? Attend a MAGA-rally? Plaster your car with bumper stickers? To me, all of these things would or could equate to “support” for a candidate. I do NONE of those things; therefore, I do not consider myself to “support“ Trump. I do think people infer my comments about what I view to be right/wrong, fair/unfair, reasonable/unreasonable as “supporting Trump”, but that’s only because I don’t personally find much right/fair/reasonable about those representing the Democratic party, especially the last 12 years. But to be clear, race (e.g. “make America white” as you put it) had ZERO to do with my decision - I’d have happily welcomed a President Condoleezza Rice/Tim Scott/Ben Carson/Allen West to name a few. Only one of them ran in 2016, and while I would LOVE to sit and just talk with Ben Carson some day, I knew he sadly was “too gentle” for the job, and he would've gotten eaten alive in no time if he got the nod.

So, I pinched my nose because: 1) my guy didn’t get the nod; 2) under NO circumstances to include water boarding nor any other form of inhumane, painful torture would I ever consider voting for Hillary Clinton; and, 3) under NO circumstances - to include the threats in #2 plus naturally birthing septuplets each weighing 12+lbs - did I want Hillary Clinton to end up as President. So I did what I had to do to get two things I wanted out of the 2016 election - to not end up with a “President Hillary Clinton“; and, retain a far better chance of maintaining other matters of importance to me: the courts, the constitution, and preservation of my rights and freedoms which so many I love and care about fought to defend/preserve, as did I. I could not ever - in good conscience nor based on my principles, values and beliefs - vote for someone, or a party that demonstrated a willingness (IMO) to whittle away at our rights, and yes, for me, that includes 2A. Seeing the injustice committed against LT. Gen. Flynn reaffirms for me that - while I held my nose - I’m glad I did so because there is no way the crooked behaviors of historically-trusted agencies would every have seeN the light of day.

Now, this brings me to the real question ... that is not being asked, but should/would if Democrats weren’t so blindly hell-bent on “never-Trump”ing themselves toward another loss in November and four additional years of Dems screaming “orange man bad” to anyone who will listen.

I’m really not sure I can/should give it away just yet, even though I see no candidate on the left (including Sleepy Joe) capable of defeating Trump. So, any guesses ... before I give it up?

I couldn't have said this so eloquently. Thank you for speaking on behalf of a few of us.

 

[Queenie60]

Yeah while I know literally zero Trump supporters who defend or advocate for his actions, I do know a few people who voted for him along party lines as they felt the court seats took priority. Basically feeling they can tolerate 4 years of unclear risk for lifetime terms of conservative judges that they felt upheld their values and beliefs.

And honestly, I can empathize with that feeling. As a pro-choice, queer, immigrant, atheistic woman, the sense of fear I have in relation to court cases relating to those freedoms and the marginalized communities I belong to is very real, and I could see myself voting for any democratic candidate, however ridiculous I found them, if it meant a coup in the courts and a liberal leaning supreme court that I felt would protect me and my family. The people voting for the same reason on the 'conservative' side I imagine feel a similar sense of fear (maybe not the literal fear for their lives, but certainly their livelihoods and lifestyles). I would like to think they can also empathize with their liberal colleagues in an "agree to disagree" way as well. Realistically though, when it feels like decisions that impact your literal survival are at stake I think it really makes it hard to not let it get personal or feel persecuted by the other side. Especially since historically speaking, many minorites were in fact persecuted and needed court rulings to grant them protections against majority preference.

To quote Ben Franklin : Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what they are going to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.” I imagine every person that reads this probably pictures themselves as the lamb... Myself included. And while I can understand it's nothing personal that the wolves want to eat me to survive, I certainly am not in agreement with letting it happen lol. Lets talk about maybe shifting to a Beyond Burger food chain...

Very well said and I thank you.

 

[the_mother_thing]

I am not sure why you think other posters on an open forum have to have their opinions solicited by you before they have a right to post them.

By the way, how did you determine my state of mind in order to draw the conclusion that I "feigned" my "false outrage" (redundant)? (If you read what I posted about missy, it was pretty calm.I don't sound "outraged" to me. I certainly didn't put any photos of people with wild hair screaming into my posting for effect, either.)

Ahhh it’s Stretch Richard again, here for a daily workout, I see.

Allow me to (how’d you put it a few pages back?) “enlighten you since you appear to be unaware about how you came across.” Let’s say you’re at lunch with a few acquaintances, and you say to one: “Jane, you had their cobb salad last time; what’d you think of it?” when - out of nowhere - and before Jane can respond with her opinion about the salad - some yahoo from several tables away rushes over, rudely interjects herself into your lunch gathering, doesn’t opine about the salad you asked Jane about, but instead proceeds to “enlighten” you that your tone when asking Jane about the salad was chastising, belittling, and sounded like you were calling Jane to the carpet demanding she respond to your question in a certain manner AND that you had an inappropriate superiority complex (or some psycho-babble), and that a sensitive person wouldn’t dare speak to Jane that way.

After you finish doubling over in laughter and confirm you’re not on “candid cameras”, how long before you finally just chalk the person up to being intrusive/obnoxious, and ask the manager to deal with the yahoo? After all, you asked a simple question ... to Jane ... about a salad; it’s not like you shouted it across the restaurant at her. No, you asked Jane because she’s a restaurant connoisseur of sorts, has otherwise always appeared to be an intelligent woman capable of speaking for herself/sharing her views; and you value Jane’s opinion and voice because she’s generally more rational, unbiased and non-judgmental than other “food critics” ... or random lunch-crashers.

No one appreciates rude yahoos who go through life making everything out to be an over-dramatized, overrated episode of Jersey Shore. Like the show, it’s trashy juvenile behavior or simply cray-cray peeps.

I’m also kind of baffled that I need to point this out to a self-proclaimed “feminist”, but when someone - for whatever their reasons or issues - repeatedly interjects themself into a dialogue over other women by answering/speaking for them on their behalf - whether in person or online - they’re really projecting their own insecurities/feelings/issues onto the now-silenced person. Have you considered the impact that has on the “Janes” of the world over time? Over time, how is “Jane” to think for herself and know how/what they feel because “you” spoke for them, or told them how they should feel/think by projecting “your” opinion/insecurities/issues onto them? It’s like setting women back 100 years or more. That behavior minimizes and marginalizes women, and robs them of their own dignity and ability to use their voice, ”speak their truth”, etc. It’s rather disrespectful and - frankly - reminds me of how men from my grandparents’ generation would sometimes treat women “back in the day”. It’s rather unsettling to me that a self-proclaimed “feminist” is the one doing it in the year 2020 ...

You do this often ... these last few pages (first with Missy and now Oboe) are but two examples. Perhaps instead of focusing on my behavior, you might consider why you feel they (and others) are incapable of speaking for themselves, and that you simply must interject and speak for them when someone directs a specific question to them and not you. Has it occurred to you that people might have directed the question specifically to that person because that person has a unique perspective or experience, making their opinion particularly of interest? Maybe also consider why you wouldn’t instead show just a smidge of courtesy and at least wait for them to answer, and empower them to have a voice in constructive dialogue in which they clearly chose to participate.

Lastly, these are not questions I’m asking you to respond to me on; they’re just suggestions for you to consider about your own actions and behavior ... as I observe it ... it’s the least I could do since you direct so much unsolicited criticism toward me.

 

[JPie]

 

[AGBF]

You are right about everything, The Mother Thing. Other people have unique perspectives on things like Cobb salads. I won't rush over to the tables of other diners and break in on their conversations anymore. I don't know why I thought I should tell that blonde to order chicken parmigiana instead of the Cobb salad. I wonder if that is why she tripped me when I was leaving.

 

[the_mother_thing]

Thank you, the_mother_thing. I appreciate your thoughtful answer. I wish I could have a rational conversation with my family members in this manner.

You’re welcome, and thank you for the respectful exchange of thoughts. I sympathize with having family who possess opposing views. My dad is firmly and deeply rooted on “the other side”. It gets ugly sometimes, and one of us hangs up on the other on occasion, but he’s my dad and I love him ... “flaws” and all.

I couldn't have said this so eloquently. Thank you for speaking on behalf of a few of us.

Thank you for the kind comment. It wasn’t my intention to speak for anyone but myself; but I also knew I wasn’t “alone“, and am reassured with your post.

I agree and feel the same about everything in this post for anyone who cares to ask. Thank you for taking the time to do it, though it has been done numerous times before by myself and others here.

My only difference is I live in a state that would never elect Hillary Clinton and @the_mother_thing lives in a swing state. I had the luxury of not having to vote for Trump. My state will never elect Biden so I have the luxury of not voting this election because I am so disenchanted with politicians as a whole. But I am seriously concerned about the things coming to light that were done by our premier LE agency and the DOJ during the Obama administration.

If people continue to think and post as if everyone who vote/d for Trump are racist, homophobic, xenophobic, misogynistic cretins then you are the exact thing @OboeGal claims to be against. Your high horses don't make you better, they make you nasty and intolerant.

Couldn't agree more ... on every single point! I shudder to think how much of what’s gone on in the DOJ and FBI would have been kept in the dark had 2016 gone differently. Scary doesn’t even begin to cover it ... I’m eager for the remaining shoes to drop so we get a sense for just how deeply-rooted and crooked some of these bad actors really were. It sure looks shady AF!

 

[Dancing Fire]

If people continue to think and post as if everyone who vote/d for Trump are racist, homophobic, xenophobic, misogynistic cretins then you are the exact thing

If the D party think they can beat Trump just by repeating these same rhetorics then they'll lose again in 2020.

 

[OboeGal]

I hav

You brought up specific people, not me. I didn’t ( and often don’t) respond to a person by name because my intention is not to start an argument with a specific person but respond to a topic/concept.

I also qualified my statement with “some“ and “many“ to intentionally avoid painting everyone with the same broad brush as you then accused. The same broad brush you then used to paint me with “this kind of thinking...”. And then you double down with a paintbrush in both hands and a fresh gallon of paint to further describe what you’ve inaccurately accused me of as being malignant and throw in racism, sexism, religious persecution. Wow, Ok.

Then in yet another post you felt free to declare the point I was trying to make, speaking for me when I’d already spoken for myself.

I do hope you keep up the effort to avoid doing this yourself but I don’t think you succeeded here.

You're utterly mischaracterizing this entire exchange - something you do frequently.

I stand by what I posted in my reply to your post - by claiming that conservatives here are not "safe" responding to a liberal's questions here because of what liberals other than the ones asking the questions said in another thread, you're demonstrating an example of "painting" liberals because of the actions of a few others. I then proceeded to characterize that type of thinking as being in general malignant and the type of thinking that underpins, at its extremes, things like racism, etc. That is all true. I called the thinking malignant - not any person. I didn't call you malignant. I didn't call anyone else malignant. I also made it quite clear in my replies to redwood that I was not singleing you out for that thinking - many, many of us are guilty of it, including myself at times (although this is not one of those times). That's why there is such division. Your post was an example that I used to illustrate my point, and I was addressing my point to all who find themselves thinking this way.

Nice try at twisting my words to try to invalidate me and the valid point I was trying to make, but it won't work.

 

[soxfan]

Jesus H. I just have to say something here to the dems who are arguing with "conservatives." I use that term loosely because I don't think that is technically what they are. STOP. It's a WASTE of your damn time. Talk diamonds, they seem to understand that and that's what we are all here for in the first place!

They didn't vote for Trump because of blah blah blah but defend him now for the following reasons, or that they DID vote for him because god f***ing forbid Hillary became President with all her inexperience and all. Ok..

1. Lifestyle and economics- Conservatives are all about pulling themselves up by their bootstraps, keep the gub'ment out of my life, don't let the rich man pick my pockets. Ok. You elected a millionaire President. He filed bankruptcy so he DID rely on the gub'ment to bail his a** out, and he just applied for Federal Aid for his hotels. I could go on and on and on. Some of you have even expressed sympathy that he has to bail out states with Federal money. I feel I have to remind you- IT'S NOT TRUMP'S money. It's YOUR money. It's taxpayer money. OMG as a conservative this should be your sounding board. Boston Tea Party anyone???? Next...

2. Morality- Those supreme court judge appointments are important! They stick up for my morals and ideals! I'm a christian! Ok, yeah. Trump cheated on every wife he had, has been accused of sexual misconduct by the lunchtime population of an Arby's, and is probably the most denigrating, bullying piece of cow dung on the planet. But sure, he's TOTALLY the shining star of that prayer circle. Rock on with your pious self.

3. The 2nd amendment. I literally can't with this. Little tiny kids were shot up into bits- hands blown off, one kids jaw was blown off and his parents covered it with a cloth at his funeral, nd some of you are applauding rednecks who show up at the capitol building with semi-automatic weapons demanding that their state open up so they can get a haircut. Are you KIDDING me?

Have ANY of you complained that Jeff Bezos pays no taxes? Did you know he is set to become a TRILLIONAIRE during this? Do you think Trump complains about him because he's jealous that Bezos is SO much better of a businessman than him and benefits from Trumps tax plan or that he owns the Washington Post? Oh wait, you don't care- not even on your radar.

What is on your collective radar now? OBAMAGATE and Michael Flynn. And WE are the angry, self-absorbed, condescending righteous ones. Got it.



THIS is why I have stopped giving Trump supporters the time of day. As a human, I cannot relate to them on any level. If they call me a snob, think I'm denigrating them, etc. I just look at the crap they post. If they are not a racist, misogynist, etc, then at the very least they are "ok" with it.

 

[OboeGal]

Are you serious? You equate “dislike of tone” with “bullying”?


Legit “bullying“ has a three-pronged definition - per the “Science”. If you aren’t familiar with it, perhaps you can do some light reading on the subject. Further, it’s my belief that people who abuse terms like “bullying” (and “racism”, since you brought that up in a later post) every time someone’s feelings are hurt or they merely object to another’s opinion dilute their meaning and do an incredible disservice to and trivialize legitimate acts of those offenses.



Just today and before you posted that, I attempted your very “take us and respond to us” approach in my post/question directly to Missy, specifically and simply asking for her opinion to something she posted. For whatever reason, AGBF felt compelled to inject herself into that exchange feigning her usual faux outrage on someone else’s behalf based on half-baked assumptions; followed by the usual gang of vultures circling with their matches, and just like good little “stronger together” soldiers, they created yet another “Political-Scope” dumpster fire. Simply put - it was precisely the behavior you assert @1ofakind was attempting to justify, only the cast of characters holding the matches wasn’t forum “conservatives”.

Now, back to your unsolicited opinion-response to me earlier today:


You - like AGBF - did the exact same thing ... only here, you took my response to AGBF, and I suppose you’re just itching for another whiff of the sulfur upon igniting your own match.

Again, I suggest you do some research on what the actual definition of “bullying” entails so you can stop with your own faux outrage. Further, your suggestion I’m “condescending” is laughable ... especially on a jewelry forum rich with self-righteous posters who will sooner admonish you for failing to adhere to CEDA debate rules than buying a GIA “good” diamond with the expectation of ideal performance.

Before we conclude here, let me guess ... you also view my responses to you above to be “condescending“? Just know, before you leap to “lib-label” my use of gifs, those are sarcasm.

There was nothing wrong with questioning Missy to try to better understand her perspective on Trump - if done with honest intentions, that's admirable. Nobody has criticized you for that. The problem was that she answered you - she posted CNN articles that she clearly felt did a good job of explaining how she sees him and his actions. Your response was to invalidate that response as not being good enough for you, in a snarky tone, and demand what you deemed a "better" response. That is not an approach to dialogue if one truly wants to understand another. That is bullying - and now you're trying to gaslight all of us who witnessed it and called you on it by minimizing it. I call bullshit. I won't be gaslit.

As I stated before, I will call you out if you bully others. What happened yesterday had nothing to do with "conservative vs. liberal", at least for me - it had to do with how one person on the forum was treating another. My motives were not about politics - they were about standing up for a person on the forum whom I particularly respect and admire, who gives out nothing but kindness to others. Unfortunately, people who do so often become the target of others for bullying, and I won't stand by when that happens. You can try to pin my motives on politics all you want, but you're wrong, and if you continue to try to do so, then that is bullying as well.

ETA: And no - posting more "snarky memes" doesn't score you more "win points."

 

[redwood66]

There was nothing wrong with questioning Missy to try to better understand her perspective on Trump - if done with honest intentions, that's admirable. Nobody has criticized you for that. The problem was that she answered you - she posted CNN articles that she clearly felt did a good job of explaining how she sees him and his actions. Your response was to invalidate that response as not being good enough for you, in a snarky tone, and demand what you deemed a "better" response. That is not an approach to dialogue if one truly wants to understand another. That is bullying - and now you're trying to gaslight all of us who witnessed it and called you on it by minimizing it. I call bullshit. I won't be gaslit.

As I stated before, I will call you out if you bully others. What happened yesterday had nothing to do with "conservative vs. liberal", at least for me - it had to do with how one person on the forum was treating another. My motives were not about politics - they were about standing up for a person on the forum whom I particularly respect and admire, who gives out nothing but kindness to others. Unfortunately, people who do so often become the target of others for bullying, and I won't stand by when that happens. You can try to pin my motives on politics all you want, but you're wrong, and if you continue to try to do so, then that is bullying as well.

ETA: And no - posting more "snarky memes" doesn't score you more "win points."

Should I expect some sort of admonition to the poster above this one of yours?

 

[telephone89]

Jesus H. I just have to say something here to the dems who are arguing with "conservatives." I use that term loosely because I don't think that is technically what they are. STOP. It's a WASTE of your damn time. Talk diamonds, they seem to understand that and that's what we are all here for in the first place!

They didn't vote for Trump because of blah blah blah but defend him now for the following reasons, or that they DID vote for him because god f***ing forbid Hillary became President with all her inexperience and all. Ok..

1. Lifestyle and economics- Conservatives are all about pulling themselves up by their bootstraps, keep the gub'ment out of my life, don't let the rich man pick my pockets. Ok. You elected a millionaire President. He filed bankruptcy so he DID rely on the gub'ment to bail his a** out, and he just applied for Federal Aid for his hotels. I could go on and on and on. Some of you have even expressed sympathy that he has to bail out states with Federal money. I feel I have to remind you- IT'S NOT TRUMP'S money. It's YOUR money. It's taxpayer money. OMG as a conservative this should be your sounding board. Boston Tea Party anyone???? Next...

2. Morality- Those supreme court judge appointments are important! They stick up for my morals and ideals! I'm a christian! Ok, yeah. Trump cheated on every wife he had, has been accused of sexual misconduct by the lunchtime population of an Arby's, and is probably the most denigrating, bullying piece of cow dung on the planet. But sure, he's TOTALLY the shining star of that prayer circle. Rock on with your pious self.

3. The 2nd amendment. I literally can't with this. Little tiny kids were shot up into bits- hands blown off, one kids jaw was blown off and his parents covered it with a cloth at his funeral, nd some of you are applauding rednecks who show up at the capitol building with semi-automatic weapons demanding that their state open up so they can get a haircut. Are you KIDDING me?

Have ANY of you complained that Jeff Bezos pays no taxes? Did you know he is set to become a TRILLIONAIRE during this? Do you think Trump complains about him because he's jealous that Bezos is SO much better of a businessman than him and benefits from Trumps tax plan or that he owns the Washington Post? Oh wait, you don't care- not even on your radar.

What is on your collective radar now? OBAMAGATE and Michael Flynn. And WE are the angry, self-absorbed, condescending righteous ones. Got it.



THIS is why I have stopped giving Trump supporters the time of day. As a human, I cannot relate to them on any level. If they call me a snob, think I'm denigrating them, etc. I just look at the crap they post. If they are not a racist, misogynist, etc, then at the very least they are "ok" with it.

Don't forget the anti-choice folk. They want conservatives on the SC to overturn RvW.

And funny enough, when I was going through old threads, ALL the regular conservatives were admonishing the protesters for BLM calling them thugs and whatever. But rednecks and nazis with guns storming the capitols for haircuts and manicures? Totally fine people

Oh, and pretty sure Ive brought up Bezo's tons of times, and got "well he made his wealth, he should keep it" bullsh*t or something. Like half his employees are on welfare and cant afford basic necessities, but he can buy the most expensive house EVER in LA and no one blinks a f*cking eye.

 

[JPie]

2. Morality- Those supreme court judge appointments are important! They stick up for my morals and ideals! I'm a christian! Ok, yeah. Trump cheated on every wife he had, has been accused of sexual misconduct by the lunchtime population of an Arby's, and is probably the most denigrating, bullying piece of cow dung on the planet. But sure, he's TOTALLY the shining star of that prayer circle. Rock on with your pious self.

This is the one that particularly confounds me. It’s like the Christian Trump supporters annotated the teachings of the Bible to suit their cruelty.

Mark 10:13-16
People were bringing little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them, but the disciples rebuked them. When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these [unless their parents are seeking asylum at the border. Then we shall put the children in cages and turn their parents away]. Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it [without following the rules that we changed to prevent their entry].” And he took the children in his arms, placed his hands on them and blessed them demanded to know how long they’d been in MS-13.

Edited for accuracy.

 

[soxfan]

Don't forget the anti-choice folk. They want conservatives on the SC to overturn RvW.

And funny enough, when I was going through old threads, ALL the regular conservatives were admonishing the protesters for BLM calling them thugs and whatever. But rednecks and nazis with guns storming the capitols for haircuts and manicures? Totally fine people

Oh, and pretty sure Ive brought up Bezo's tons of times, and got "well he made his wealth, he should keep it" bullsh*t or something. Like half his employees are on welfare and cant afford basic necessities, but he can buy the most expensive house EVER in LA and no one blinks a f*cking eye.

Exactly. It's why I don't buy into it. They don't believe in anything they say. So how are we supposed to give them credence?

 

[redwood66]

I see the cabal is back online. Welcome! Such nice people.

ca·bal
/kəˈbäl,kəˈbal/

a secret political clique or faction.

 

[soxfan]

I see the cabal is back online. Welcome! Such nice people.

ca·bal
/kəˈbäl,kəˈbal/

a secret political clique or faction.

Weird that you had to edit that explain it to us. We are liberals, remember?

 

[redwood66]

Weird that you had to edit that explain it to us. We are liberals, remember?

I wouldn't want anyone to think I meant anything nefarious and report me.

 

[soxfan]

Oh, wait, did you do that for the other 3?

 

[soxfan]

I wouldn't want anyone to think I meant anything nefarious.

Yeah, Ok.

 

[MakingTheGrade]

Don't forget the anti-choice folk. They want conservatives on the SC to overturn RvW.

And funny enough, when I was going through old threads, ALL the regular conservatives were admonishing the protesters for BLM calling them thugs and whatever. But rednecks and nazis with guns storming the capitols for haircuts and manicures? Totally fine people

Oh, and pretty sure Ive brought up Bezo's tons of times, and got "well he made his wealth, he should keep it" bullsh*t or something. Like half his employees are on welfare and cant afford basic necessities, but he can buy the most expensive house EVER in LA and no one blinks a f*cking eye.

Yup. welcome to Y’all Qaeda. I have no interest in talking to anyone belong to extremist terrorist groups, including the American born and grown ones. In my opinion they’re the worst groups as they advocate violence against their own fellow citizens and neighbors. That trump refuses to denounce them in the harshest language is an absolute disgrace and part of why people associate conservatives with hateful racist gun toting bullies. I know the majority of conservative are not the far right or marching around intimidating people with their guns like morons, but it’s not a good look when the leader of the party can’t seem to denounce them.

 

[redwood66]

Yeah, Ok.

You know you and I have been able to have decent conversations so I was surprised by your rant.

 

[JPie]

Exactly. It's why I don't buy into it. They don't believe in anything they say. So how are we supposed to give them credence?

If my husband’s relatives are any indication, they really do believe the things they say. The cognitive dissonance is strong. One of his aunts is a pastor - extremely devout and a Trump supporter. This same aunt is also very thoughtful, kind, and generous. I’ve never talked politics with her and we have a friendly but superficial relationship. I heard that she just shut down and refused to talk when my FIL asked her why she supports Trump. (My FIL is about the least intimidating guy ever.)

I guess it’s easier to refuse to talk about it than to be presented with facts that make the position untenable.

 

[soxfan]

You know you and I have been able to have decent conversations so I was surprised by your rant.

I'm not surprised you called it a rant.

 

[OboeGal]

Although I agree with some of what @Jambalaya posted, I do feel the need to disagree with a couple comments.

Meghan Markle leaving the UK and coming back to the US likely had little to do with the differences in quality of life between the two countries for just about anyone who isn't a huge celebrity/royalty. Being in the position she was in, she was tormented by the tabloids who made a crap ton of money off torturing her and whipping up public opinion against her in a way that potentially compromised the safety of her and her child. Accustomed to a certain amount of fame and money, though, they decided to come back to the place where she had the professional connections to continue to have some fame and money. I really don't think anything about her case applies to any of the rest of us and how we would make decisions about our lives.

I also want to address the statement about higher cost of living in other western countries. This is a pretty widespread misconception here in the US. Although I don't have the stats to speak to Canada and Australia, my DH is from the Netherlands, where his entire family and best friend still reside, and he has other friends and colleagues throughout Europe, so I can speak to this issue as far as western Europe and the Nordic countries. My husband found when he first came to the US - to a suburb of a mid-size city in southwestern Ohio - that his cost of living was higher here than where he lived there, which was a suburb of The Hague. He knows from past travel that the cost of living in a major city here, such as NY, Chicago, LA, etc., is more than the cost of living in Amsterdam. This is pretty much the case as far as France, Germany, the Nordic countries, etc. - the cost of living here is the same or higher on average. (This might not be the case for southern Europe - he does not have enough info about them to say. It certainly is not the case for Monaco - it's incredibly expensive there!)

I don't know if taxes are part of what most consider as part of cost of living, but I know a lot of Americans hear about higher tax rates in other western countries, and don't really understand what that does for people there. DH found his tax rate here to be about 10% higher than in the Netherlands - somewhat higher, but not greatly. The difference in what people there get back for paying those taxes, though, is tremendous. Unbelievably lower health care costs - for the cost of around $1000 per year for his insurance, he could go to the provider of his choice, and the level of care was comparable to here. Much better social safety net, including unemployment benefits, for those who are struggling. Well-planned, well-maintained infrastructure. Much better protections and working conditions for employees, including paid sick leave for many more workers, maternity/paternity leave, etc..Assistance with childcare expenses. Better quality education for much, much less money. Better state pensions and much better and less expensive senior care. It's really amazing - because of what those slightly higher taxes gives them, at the end of the day, they have quite a bit more money left over for discretionary spending than we do here, and their lives are much less stressful - yet compared to life here, there seems no loss of freedom.

 

[OboeGal]

If people continue to think and post as if everyone who vote/d for Trump are racist, homophobic, xenophobic, misogynistic cretins then you are the exact thing @OboeGal claims to be against. Your high horses don't make you better, they make you nasty and intolerant.

I didn't just claim to be against it - I am against it. Don't misrespresent me, please.

 

[OboeGal]

Ahhh it’s Stretch Richard again, here for a daily workout, I see.

Allow me to (how’d you put it a few pages back?) “enlighten you since you appear to be unaware about how you came across.” Let’s say you’re at lunch with a few acquaintances, and you say to one: “Jane, you had their cobb salad last time; what’d you think of it?” when - out of nowhere - and before Jane can respond with her opinion about the salad - some yahoo from several tables away rushes over, rudely interjects herself into your lunch gathering, doesn’t opine about the salad you asked Jane about, but instead proceeds to “enlighten” you that your tone when asking Jane about the salad was chastising, belittling, and sounded like you were calling Jane to the carpet demanding she respond to your question in a certain manner AND that you had an inappropriate superiority complex (or some psycho-babble), and that a sensitive person wouldn’t dare speak to Jane that way.

After you finish doubling over in laughter and confirm you’re not on “candid cameras”, how long before you finally just chalk the person up to being intrusive/obnoxious, and ask the manager to deal with the yahoo? After all, you asked a simple question ... to Jane ... about a salad; it’s not like you shouted it across the restaurant at her. No, you asked Jane because she’s a restaurant connoisseur of sorts, has otherwise always appeared to be an intelligent woman capable of speaking for herself/sharing her views; and you value Jane’s opinion and voice because she’s generally more rational, unbiased and non-judgmental than other “food critics” ... or random lunch-crashers.

No one appreciates rude yahoos who go through life making everything out to be an over-dramatized, overrated episode of Jersey Shore. Like the show, it’s trashy juvenile behavior or simply cray-cray peeps.

I’m also kind of baffled that I need to point this out to a self-proclaimed “feminist”, but when someone - for whatever their reasons or issues - repeatedly interjects themself into a dialogue over other women by answering/speaking for them on their behalf - whether in person or online - they’re really projecting their own insecurities/feelings/issues onto the now-silenced person. Have you considered the impact that has on the “Janes” of the world over time? Over time, how is “Jane” to think for herself and know how/what they feel because “you” spoke for them, or told them how they should feel/think by projecting “your” opinion/insecurities/issues onto them? It’s like setting women back 100 years or more. That behavior minimizes and marginalizes women, and robs them of their own dignity and ability to use their voice, ”speak their truth”, etc. It’s rather disrespectful and - frankly - reminds me of how men from my grandparents’ generation would sometimes treat women “back in the day”. It’s rather unsettling to me that a self-proclaimed “feminist” is the one doing it in the year 2020 ...

You do this often ... these last few pages (first with Missy and now Oboe) are but two examples. Perhaps instead of focusing on my behavior, you might consider why you feel they (and others) are incapable of speaking for themselves, and that you simply must interject and speak for them when someone directs a specific question to them and not you. Has it occurred to you that people might have directed the question specifically to that person because that person has a unique perspective or experience, making their opinion particularly of interest? Maybe also consider why you wouldn’t instead show just a smidge of courtesy and at least wait for them to answer, and empower them to have a voice in constructive dialogue in which they clearly chose to participate.

Lastly, these are not questions I’m asking you to respond to me on; they’re just suggestions for you to consider about your own actions and behavior ... as I observe it ... it’s the least I could do since you direct so much unsolicited criticism toward me.

I'm sure @AGBF is well aware that Missy and I can stand up for ourselves, and has witnessed us do so, but that doesn't mean that it isn't beneficial for her to speak up if she sees us, or anyone else, treated in a way that she deems out of line - as I did for Missy. It's an honorable thing for people in a society to do - to stand in defense of others when they are mistreated. She has not "robbed me of my voice" - I find that ridiculous. Talk about a "Stretch Richard" moment.

If you don't like unsolicited responses from people, then I suggest you not post on a public forum on the internet. If you wish to continue to do so, then you'll have to get used to it.

 

[OboeGal]

Should I expect some sort of admonition to the poster above this one of yours?

While parts of it emotionally resonate with me as they well-characterize many, but not all, of the conservatives that I've personally had to deal with where I live, no, I can't get on board with the tone of characterizing everyone on the right that way. That's why I didn't "like" the post. It's a perfect example of broad-brush painting - very emotionally satisfying in the moment for the folks on the same side, and with some kernels of truth about some people, but ultimately unfair to the group it's about and just making matters worse. I'm particularly sad to see it after you, @the_mother_thing, and @1ofakind made yourselves vulnerable and posted honestly about your perspectives - an act which I appreciated.

There have been several occasions here where I've gone to some lengths to put a lot of time and effort into carefully writing a post about a concept or principle I hold dear, just to see a post shortly afterward that makes me feel like everything I poured into writing it was completely and utterly wasted. Those times, rather than disagreements, tend to be what drives me away from HO - they give me the sense that no one is really listening or trying to grow. I'll find myself contemplating a brief post saying, "Aaaaaand thanks for making me feel like I completely wasted my time," and then deciding against it because clearly they didn't care the first time, so why should I believe they'll care the second?

This is one of those times.

 

[Calliecake]

@OboeGal , Please don’t stop posting. I appreciate your well thought out posts.

 

[JPie]

@OboeGal you haven’t failed. For every time I do post in the political threads, there are far more times that I decided to walk away.

Change of this magnitude happens slowly. We didn’t get here overnight and we won’t heal that fast either. There’s too much hurt and anger on both sides for us to always be our best selves, but that doesn’t mean we’re not trying.