Real People Are Dying / Trump Kills

[redwood66]

While parts of it emotionally resonate with me as they well-characterize many, but not all, of the conservatives that I've personally had to deal with where I live, no, I can't get on board with the tone of characterizing everyone on the right that way. That's why I didn't "like" the post. It's a perfect example of broad-brush painting - very emotionally satisfying in the moment for the folks on the same side, and with some kernels of truth about some people, but ultimately unfair to the group it's about and just making matters worse. I'm particularly sad to see it after you, @the_mother_thing, and @1ofakind made yourselves vulnerable and posted honestly about your perspectives - an act which I appreciated.

There have been several occasions here where I've gone to some lengths to put a lot of time and effort into carefully writing a post about a concept or principle I hold dear, just to see a post shortly afterward that makes me feel like everything I poured into writing it was completely and utterly wasted. Those times, rather than disagreements, tend to be what drives me away from HO - they give me the sense that no one is really listening or trying to grow. I'll find myself contemplating a brief post saying, "Aaaaaand thanks for making me feel like I completely wasted my time," and then deciding against it because clearly they didn't care the first time, so why should I believe they'll care the second?

This is one of those times.

I appreciate this post immensely and enjoy your posts most of the time. We can't all agree all of the time. I am very tired of no one pushing back against the garbage that shows up in HO. It is tiring and not worth the effort to even be here. I have so many more things I care and worry about in my life.

 

[soxfan]

I appreciate this post immensely and enjoy your posts most of the time. We can't all agree all of the time. I am very tired of no one pushing back against the garbage that shows up in HO. It is tiring and not worth the effort to even be here. I have so many more things I care and worry about in my life.





Right. Like responding to your own posts when no one took the bait.

 

[OboeGal]

Thank you, @Calliecake, @JPie, and @redwood66 - I appreciate that.

 

[redwood66]

Garbage trolling. Bless your heart.

Not meant for you @OboeGal

 

[Calliecake]

@redwood66 , I want to sincerely thank you for editing your post last night. Thank you. I hope you and your family are doing well.

I have so many more things I care and worry about in my life.

 

[Dancing Fire]

You know you and I have been able to have decent conversations so I was surprised by your rant.

Be careful the vultures are out tonight!..

 

[1ofakind]

You're utterly mischaracterizing this entire exchange - something you do frequently.

Nice try at twisting my words to try to invalidate me and the valid point I was trying to make, but it won't work.

Not mischaracterizing at all...maybe if you read the key words again...

Don't paint me with some "all liberals" brush because of the actions of some.

I didn’t.
Please show anywhere I have said “all liberals”.
Not in this post or any other but this is the one you accuse me of doing so. I specifically said it was SOME, not all.

Including the wish (passed off as dark humor and accepted/justified/excused by many) for Trump supporters to drink bleach and die. That was a really special day. And then some of those same people get their panties all in a twist based on a 'tone' they don't like that is completely open to interpretation.

You’ve more than once put into quotes things which I did not say.
I’m not the one twisting words.

 

[Queenie60]

Be careful the vultures are out tonight!..

@Dancing Fire - you're trying to stir the pot...... I think you enjoy the conflict a bit......

 

[MakingTheGrade]

@Dancing Fire - you're trying to stir the pot...... I think you enjoy the conflict a bit......

In my opinion the best approach to a Troll is to ignore it. It’s like those mythologies where beings lose power when people stop paying attention to them lol

 

[the_mother_thing]

There was nothing wrong with questioning Missy to try to better understand her perspective on Trump - if done with honest intentions, that's admirable. Nobody has criticized you for that. The problem was that she answered you - she posted CNN articles that she clearly felt did a good job of explaining how she sees him and his actions. Your response was to invalidate that response as not being good enough for you, in a snarky tone, and demand what you deemed a "better" response. That is not an approach to dialogue if one truly wants to understand another. That is bullying - and now you're trying to gaslight all of us who witnessed it and called you on it by minimizing it. I call bullshit. I won't be gaslit.

As I stated before, I will call you out if you bully others. What happened yesterday had nothing to do with "conservative vs. liberal", at least for me - it had to do with how one person on the forum was treating another. My motives were not about politics - they were about standing up for a person on the forum whom I particularly respect and admire, who gives out nothing but kindness to others. Unfortunately, people who do so often become the target of others for bullying, and I won't stand by when that happens. You can try to pin my motives on politics all you want, but you're wrong, and if you continue to try to do so, then that is bullying as well.

ETA: And no - posting more "snarky memes" doesn't score you more "win points."

Opinions/sarcasm/memes/gifs I’ve posted - which do not contain offensive or inflammatory language, hate speech, etc. - are not “bullying” or “gaslighting”. If they were, I’m confident Admin would have warned me of such and/or put me in “time out”. Furthermore, if what I’ve posted in this thread fit those categories by any measure, 95% of the entire “Hangout“ forum should cease to exist because I am quite toned down compared to most of what is posted in here. But, since you seem hell-bent on continually accusing me of committing some unthinkable offensive act, I’ll take this opportunity to remind you - and everyone who may have missed it - that when I asked you yesterday what I posted that you perceived to be “bullying”, this is what you cited:


If legit-bullying wasn’t a serious and hurtful experience for victims who experience/d it, your accusation would garner gut-busting laughs. Instead, it’s shameful to continually diminish the experiences of actual bullied victims with inflammatory faux-accusations. Missy didn’t even cite this as “bullying”; she (of her own volition, mind you) objected to my “tone”, which was benign sarcasm, not mentally-abusive behavior (which bullying and gaslighting are considered).

Now, one could argue, that posting anything from CNN could be construed as a form of abuse, and CNN does bully POTUS at his press briefings, but I digress. Note: that was slightly less-benign sarcasm, lest you accuse me of now “bullying“ CNN.

You’re entitled to your opinion, Oboe; and I’m certainly entitled to mine. One indisputable fact however: you’re not Admin ... maybe keep that in mind before issuing further threats to stalk my posts like some self-appointed Net Nanny. I think you know where the “report post” button is located; and, if my posts/opinions/memes/gifs/politics/sarcasm bother you, actual forum Admins suggest you stretch your mouse on over to my username to locate the magical ignore button and click that bad boy like it’s spitting out winning lotto tickets.

The irony is chastising me for “demanding a better response” from Missy, and in the same post you demand I appease your prescribed posting standards. I’m no bully, but you sure are testing the boundaries ...

 

[Dancing Fire]

In my opinion the best approach to a Troll is to ignore it. It’s like those mythologies where beings lose power when people stop paying attention to them lol

Yes, anybody who doesn't agree with you is a TROLL..

 

[missy]

@OboeGal your posts are one of the reasons (as well as @soxfan @JPie @MakingTheGrade @AGBF @Matata and others) I still read the political threads. Your posts are always well thought out and clearly articulated and a joy to read. Thank you for sharing here and I can assure you that your time and effort are not wasted.

I am ignoring those who consistently take the low road and bait others. It isn't worth our energy nor our time.

@OboeGal, Thank you for taking the time and the energy to share your eloquent posts. What you share is always filled with wisdom and substance. Your presence on PS makes the political (and other) threads a pleasure to read and continues to make PS a wonderful place to hang out.

 

[Jambalaya]

Although I agree with some of what @Jambalaya posted, I do feel the need to disagree with a couple comments.

Meghan Markle leaving the UK and coming back to the US likely had little to do with the differences in quality of life between the two countries for just about anyone who isn't a huge celebrity/royalty. Being in the position she was in, she was tormented by the tabloids who made a crap ton of money off torturing her and whipping up public opinion against her in a way that potentially compromised the safety of her and her child. Accustomed to a certain amount of fame and money, though, they decided to come back to the place where she had the professional connections to continue to have some fame and money. I really don't think anything about her case applies to any of the rest of us and how we would make decisions about our lives.

I also want to address the statement about higher cost of living in other western countries. This is a pretty widespread misconception here in the US. Although I don't have the stats to speak to Canada and Australia, my DH is from the Netherlands, where his entire family and best friend still reside, and he has other friends and colleagues throughout Europe, so I can speak to this issue as far as western Europe and the Nordic countries. My husband found when he first came to the US - to a suburb of a mid-size city in southwestern Ohio - that his cost of living was higher here than where he lived there, which was a suburb of The Hague. He knows from past travel that the cost of living in a major city here, such as NY, Chicago, LA, etc., is more than the cost of living in Amsterdam. This is pretty much the case as far as France, Germany, the Nordic countries, etc. - the cost of living here is the same or higher on average. (This might not be the case for southern Europe - he does not have enough info about them to say. It certainly is not the case for Monaco - it's incredibly expensive there!)

I don't know if taxes are part of what most consider as part of cost of living, but I know a lot of Americans hear about higher tax rates in other western countries, and don't really understand what that does for people there. DH found his tax rate here to be about 10% higher than in the Netherlands - somewhat higher, but not greatly. The difference in what people there get back for paying those taxes, though, is tremendous. Unbelievably lower health care costs - for the cost of around $1000 per year for his insurance, he could go to the provider of his choice, and the level of care was comparable to here. Much better social safety net, including unemployment benefits, for those who are struggling. Well-planned, well-maintained infrastructure. Much better protections and working conditions for employees, including paid sick leave for many more workers, maternity/paternity leave, etc..Assistance with childcare expenses. Better quality education for much, much less money. Better state pensions and much better and less expensive senior care. It's really amazing - because of what those slightly higher taxes gives them, at the end of the day, they have quite a bit more money left over for discretionary spending than we do here, and their lives are much less stressful - yet compared to life here, there seems no loss of freedom.

Comparisons of worldwide cost-of-living indices are complex, but a reputable study quoted in Forbes has the US as 20th most expensive in the world, with France, Denmark, Norway, Ireland, the Netherlands, France, and Belgium coming in as more expensive than the US, along with Australia and NZ. Austria, Germany, and Italy were cheaper - although Austria was 21st, so just a little cheaper than the US. Of course, these figures are all averages. YMMV depending on where you live. But cost-of-living alone wouldn't make me want to live in Europe. There's another issue, which is....space! Europe is very crowded, and we have so much lovely space here.

Here's the article: https://www.forbes.com/sites/cecili...-the-top-with-switzerland-first/#6b4e2d6d6dc1

With Meghan, she said that she found the UK racist and that the negative media coverage had its roots in racism. That's how the place made her feel. Then there was Brexit. Of course, you're right in what you say about Meghan's situation being different from the average person's, but the racism that she experienced just goes to show that other countries have their problems, too.

Regarding how she felt about her treatment there, she must have expected some of it, becoming such a high-profile person. The other members of the royal family have also had dreadful treatment at the hands of the press. I don't know about the media coverage threatening her security and that of her child. The RF are surrounded by expert security, and if anyone's a target, it would be Prince George because he's the future king, and they seem to manage. I actually think Meghan would have been safer inside the royal family, and also better able to make a difference with their huge support networks and networks of contacts, than out on her own.

The press were so awful about Kate for about ten years years, running articles about how unsuitable she was to be wife of the king, about her supposedly low-class maternal background; they called her Waity Katie, the Duchess of Doolittle, and it's only recently that articles pointing out how few engagements she's done have died down. When she visited a religious building on a royal engagement and had to take her shoes off, one paper ran an extreme close-up of her feet, analyzing them and criticising them in detail. And when Charles was caught on the phone to his lover, a UK tabloid published the transcript (it was before the web) including the line about the tampon. When Fergie had an affair, the UK tabloids put a photo of her having her toes sucked right on the front page. And while the UK press might not have run the photos of Kate sunbathing topless, they certainly ran many articles about it!

My point is that it's FAR from only Meghan who has received rough treatment from the UK press. It's a pity she couldn't have just ignored it - Kate never gave these muck-rakers the time of day, and eventually they got fed up, she earned their respect, and now they leave her alone. But it took time. I don't think Meghan really gave her new life a chance - but perhaps, at heart, she just wanted to go home.

The Netherlands healthcare system sounds great! I do think the most successful healthcare systems are a public/private mix, where the government pays some and the individual pays some (on a sliding scale relative to their finances) and perhaps employers pay some, too. A shared burden. Obamacare is a wonderful legacy of his presidency.

 

[OboeGal]

Not mischaracterizing at all...maybe if you read the key words again...


I didn’t.
Please show anywhere I have said “all liberals”.
Not in this post or any other but this is the one you accuse me of doing so. I specifically said it was SOME, not all.


You’ve more than once put into quotes things which I did not say.
I’m not the one twisting words.

*Sigh.*

I was referring to justifying conservatives refusing to respond to questions from liberals because of the atmosphere created by those who were participating in the "dark humor." It was the context of what you posted in response to Red's question to me about how I would feel responding to questions if there were lots of negative posts about Obama supporters here, plus the context of the fact that the one asking the questions this time was Missy, who didn't participate in wishing anyone would drink bleach and die, and the main one defending her - or "getting my panties in a twist," as you characterized it - was me, who didn't participate in that either.

You're now trying to parse individual words in a very literal way out of context of the whole conversation in an attempt to walk back what was communicated. It doesn't fly.

 

[OboeGal]

Opinions/sarcasm/memes/gifs I’ve posted - which do not contain offensive or inflammatory language, hate speech, etc. - are not “bullying” or “gaslighting”. If they were, I’m confident Admin would have warned me of such and/or put me in “time out”. Furthermore, if what I’ve posted in this thread fit those categories by any measure, 95% of the entire “Hangout“ forum should cease to exist because I am quite toned down compared to most of what is posted in here. But, since you seem hell-bent on continually accusing me of committing some unthinkable offensive act, I’ll take this opportunity to remind you - and everyone who may have missed it - that when I asked you yesterday what I posted that you perceived to be “bullying”, this is what you cited:


If legit-bullying wasn’t a serious and hurtful experience for victims who experience/d it, your accusation would garner gut-busting laughs. Instead, it’s shameful to continually diminish the experiences of actual bullied victims with inflammatory faux-accusations. Missy didn’t even cite this as “bullying”; she (of her own volition, mind you) objected to my “tone”, which was benign sarcasm, not mentally-abusive behavior (which bullying and gaslighting are considered).

Now, one could argue, that posting anything from CNN could be construed as a form of abuse, and CNN does bully POTUS at his press briefings, but I digress. Note: that was slightly less-benign sarcasm, lest you accuse me of now “bullying“ CNN.

You’re entitled to your opinion, Oboe; and I’m certainly entitled to mine. One indisputable fact however: you’re not Admin ... maybe keep that in mind before issuing further threats to stalk my posts like some self-appointed Net Nanny. I think you know where the “report post” button is located; and, if my posts/opinions/memes/gifs/politics/sarcasm bother you, actual forum Admins suggest you stretch your mouse on over to my username to locate the magical ignore button and click that bad boy like it’s spitting out winning lotto tickets.

The irony is chastising me for “demanding a better response” from Missy, and in the same post you demand I appease your prescribed posting standards. I’m no bully, but you sure are testing the boundaries ...

Nice try. I didn't say posting memes was bullying or gaslighting; I said it didn't score you "winning" points.

I was very clear about what behavior I considered bullying and gaslighting. I stand by that.

Your posts are not "quite toned-down" compared to others here. That is laughable.

I don't have to be Admin to call out behavior I see a problem with in posts you choose to make on a public forum. I have not been rude or offensive; I have not violated the forum's rules. I never issued "threats to stalk" your posts "like some self-appointed Net Nanny" - that is a complete - and frankly ridiculously hyperbolic - lie. I did say that I had no intention to put you on Ignore, and that if I have a problem in the future with your conduct toward another poster, I will say so. Not even remotely the same. I have no intention of "stalking" your, nor anyone else's, posts - that would require a level of time and energy commitment that your posts are not remotely worth to me.

 

[OboeGal]

@OboeGal your posts are one of the reasons (as well as @soxfan @JPie @MakingTheGrade @AGBF @Matata and others) I still read the political threads. Your posts are always well thought out and clearly articulated and a joy to read. Thank you for sharing here and I can assure you that your time and effort are not wasted.

I am ignoring those who consistently take the low road and bait others. It isn't worth our energy nor our time.

@OboeGal, Thank you for taking the time and the energy to share your eloquent posts. What you share is always filled with wisdom and substance. Your presence on PS makes the political (and other) threads a pleasure to read and continues to make PS a wonderful place to hang out.

Thank you, @missy - that was very sweet. I appreciate it.

 

[OboeGal]

Comparisons of worldwide cost-of-living indices are complex, but a reputable study quoted in Forbes has the US as 20th most expensive in the world, with France, Denmark, Norway, Ireland, the Netherlands, France, and Belgium coming in as more expensive than the US, along with Australia and NZ. Austria, Germany, and Italy were cheaper - although Austria was 21st, so just a little cheaper than the US. Of course, these figures are all averages. YMMV depending on where you live. But cost-of-living alone wouldn't make me want to live in Europe. There's another issue, which is....space! Europe is very crowded, and we have so much lovely space here.

Here's the article: https://www.forbes.com/sites/cecili...-the-top-with-switzerland-first/#6b4e2d6d6dc1

With Meghan, she said that she found the UK racist and that the negative media coverage had its roots in racism. That's how the place made her feel. Then there was Brexit. Of course, you're right in what you say about Meghan's situation being different from the average person's, but the racism that she experienced just goes to show that other countries have their problems, too.

Regarding how she felt about her treatment there, she must have expected some of it, becoming such a high-profile person. The other members of the royal family have also had dreadful treatment at the hands of the press. I don't know about the media coverage threatening her security and that of her child. The RF are surrounded by expert security, and if anyone's a target, it would be Prince George because he's the future king, and they seem to manage. I actually think Meghan would have been safer inside the royal family, and also better able to make a difference with their huge support networks and networks of contacts, than out on her own.

The press were so awful about Kate for about ten years years, running articles about how unsuitable she was to be wife of the king, about her supposedly low-class maternal background; they called her Waity Katie, the Duchess of Doolittle, and it's only recently that articles pointing out how few engagements she's done have died down. When she visited a religious building on a royal engagement and had to take her shoes off, one paper ran an extreme close-up of her feet, analyzing them and criticising them in detail. And when Charles was caught on the phone to his lover, a UK tabloid published the transcript (it was before the web) including the line about the tampon. When Fergie had an affair, the UK tabloids put a photo of her having her toes sucked right on the front page. And while the UK press might not have run the photos of Kate sunbathing topless, they certainly ran many articles about it!

My point is that it's FAR from only Meghan who has received rough treatment from the UK press. It's a pity she couldn't have just ignored it - Kate never gave these muck-rakers the time of day, and eventually they got fed up, she earned their respect, and now they leave her alone. But it took time. I don't think Meghan really gave her new life a chance - but perhaps, at heart, she just wanted to go home.

The Netherlands healthcare system sounds great! I do think the most successful healthcare systems are a public/private mix, where the government pays some and the individual pays some (on a sliding scale relative to their finances) and perhaps employers pay some, too. A shared burden. Obamacare is a wonderful legacy of his presidency.

I agree that comparing cost of living is complex. In looking at the article you referenced, I see that three important areas of household expenses didn't seem to be considered: healthcare costs, child care costs, and elder care costs. I think those are what make the critical difference. If one considers the vastly lower individual and family healthcare costs, the partial assistance provided for child care, and the much less expensive (and better quality) elder care (which results in folks not having to save millions for retirement - reasonably modest amounts are plenty), I believe one will find that in many, if not most, of those countries, what is left over for the average household after the bills are paid is more than here in the US. That would line up with the experience of DH and his family, friends, and colleagues throughout Europe.

DH and I totally agree about space! That's the only thing we like about living here at this point. Well, the natural beauty as well, but at the rate things are going with corporate power over political policy, the natural beauty here will not last much longer, I'm afraid. It's really a shame that so much of a gift is in the hands of one of the countries least able, or willing, to be a responsible steward of it.

I agree that there is a lot about the society of the UK currently that I personally find troublesome. Although I know there are plenty of wonderful people there - many on this forum - it is not on my personal list of countries where I would be interested in living at this time. In particular, I don't care for the fact that healthcare providers are actually working directly for the government.

The Dutch healthcare system really is great. It works very, very well. I like that it is a nice balance between government and market-driven. It is similar to Medicare here. There are an assortment of insurers, each with an assortment of plans to choose from. Plans that cover a little more cost a little more. Patients pay a portion toward their costs - my DH said that it averages out to around $1200 per year; another portion comes from payroll taxes. The rest is subsidized by the government. The insurers have less power than here, though - they negotiate prices with providers, and mediate payment, but they have no power to decide what procedures a patient can have - that is up to the patient and their provider. There are no "surprise bills" and no rejection of coverage or price gouging for pre-existing conditions. (They can "price out of the market" providers that are outright abusing the system through over-prescribing medications or repeatedly performing unnecessary surgeries just to make money, but that is invisible to patients.) Patients are free to choose their provider. This retains market pressures for both insurers and providers to provide high quality services and care and to innovate.

 

[Jambalaya]

The cost of education in the US is very high, too. I guess it all depends on your personal situation. I don't have dependants, so my education and healthcare costs aren't high.

In terms of cost of living, SO much depends on where you live in the US, too.

I'm sorry to hear that there's virtually nothing you like about living here. There must be some good things, surely? Not even one tiny little thing? Consumer goods are often cheaper, and so many places have really low property prices. You can have a palace for sixpence in some beautiful parts of southern New Hampshire! And to be a bit more soulful, the sheer variety of the landscape here is amazing. Where else do you have deserts, tropical beaches, lakes and mountains, world-class cities, prairies, stunning coastline, canyons, and the gamut of climates from very hot to very cold? And the people are soooo warm and friendly. There is a real sense of community in so many places in the US. And....free soda refills when you go out to dinner! That's gotta be a plus, surely? In Europe you get those tiny little soda bottles that cost $5 a pop, and your soda ends up costing more than your dinner!

And...Sephora. Need I say more?

And...have you seen the price of jewelry in other countries compared to the States? (Priorities!)

Anyway, it sounds like you're ready for a change. Will you get to live in the Netherlands at some point?

 

[the_mother_thing]

Nice try. I didn't say posting memes was bullying or gaslighting; I said it didn't score you "winning" points.

I was very clear about what behavior I considered bullying and gaslighting. I stand by that.

Your posts are not "quite toned-down" compared to others here. That is laughable.

I don't have to be Admin to call out behavior I see a problem with in posts you choose to make on a public forum. I have not been rude or offensive; I have not violated the forum's rules. I never issued "threats to stalk" your posts "like some self-appointed Net Nanny" - that is a complete - and frankly ridiculously hyperbolic - lie. I did say that I had no intention to put you on Ignore, and that if I have a problem in the future with your conduct toward another poster, I will say so. Not even remotely the same. I have no intention of "stalking" your, nor anyone else's, posts - that would require a level of time and energy commitment that your posts are not remotely worth to me.

 

[Gussie]

@Jambalaya Thank you! I too love America. With all its problems (and I am in no way minimizing them), there is still no where else I want to hang my hat.

I saw a bald eagle flying over the lake a few days ago and I got that weepy feeling of patriotism. I know we will get through this.

 

[Ella]

It is obvious by the number of reports on this thread that it seems to be bringing out the vitriol on on both sides of the aisle. I don't have the patience for it and am closing this thread.

A warning that if this behavior continues onto other threads, we will again remove politics as a topic of conversation on PS. Act like adults.

If you are wondering if this message is aimed at you, explore whether you could have behaved in a kinder way or used the ignore button.