Real People Are Dying / Trump Kills

[kenny]

... 90% of the people were *not* wearing masks. Why are people so resistant to wearing masks? ...

Stupidity.
Oh, and you can't fix stupidity.

Again, let's just call a spade a spade.

 

[Missy]

Stupidity.
Oh, and you can't fix stupidity.

Again, let's just call a spade a spade.

Truth.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

dear American friends
please do what ever you have to to be safe and to keep other's safe
in my head i cannot process the number of people in NY and NJ of people dying every day
we are all - the entire world- going to have to pick up the broken pieces of the economy soon enough but if we stuff this up and have to go into a 2nd shelter in place/ lockdown its going to be much much worse on the economy a 2nd time around
nobody's govt can continue to pay us all to sit at home and do nothing for ever - so just stay home and enjoy time with your immediate family while you can
here in NZ people's loved ones are dying in hospital (not necessarily from covid 19) and there family have been unable to to spend even the tiniest last moment with them, so savour this time at home with the ones you love

 

[Maria D]

If that were to happen then it is my fault for not staying home. Wife and I take a risk everyday by coming in contact with DD#2 who works in the hospital. We have no choice since we are babysitting her kids.

DF, your thinking makes so much sense that I'm starting to see it your way.

Your daughter does not have to work in the hospital! This is America where we all have freedom! Your daughter and all her medical professional co-workers can choose to stay home. So can all the grocery workers, truck drivers, food industry workers, fireman, policemen ... all those people. If they are worried about all the germ factories Kenny speaks of they can just shut themselves in and not deal. What goddamned right do they have to be so selfish to keep the rest of us in? Bunch of pussies I tell ya. All the rest of us brave freedom loving people can take our dirty hands and maskless faces and party on the beach!

 

[soxfan]

If we weren't babysitting our grandkids we would have kill each other by now.

 

[AGBF]

What is your plan? To live in quarantine forever? It is your choice. Order food delivery then. Why insist that everyone do as you do?

Because it was Typhoid Mary, not I, who spread typhus. Why don't you people get it? Public health means EVERYONE spreads it, not just the ones who want to stay safe!

 

[nala]

Because it was Typhoid Mary, not I, who spread typhus. Why don't you people get it? Public health means EVERYONE spreads it, not just the ones who want to stay safe!

Hi. You’ve obviously missed my other posts. You are eager to blame Trump. Yet. I have posted that our liberal governor Newsom is reopening beaches and parts of the state. You conveniently don’t address that. Don’t you get it? You also ignore contact tracing. Don’t you get that contact tracing will help to reduce deaths? Yet, you don’t advocate for that. You insist on blaming Trump or clobbering me for suggesting that it’s time to move on from quarantine to contact tracing. Don’t you get it? We all have the choice to do that. Or we can all sit around and blame people much like you are as we ignore our new reality that we must all sacrifice. You are ok sacrificing your freedom, but I guess you draw the line at privacy—like so many others. Stop. Don’t you get it? Stop trying to guilt and shame others if you don’t realize that contact tracing is more significant now than quarantine. Don’t you get it?

 

[Missy]

I think we need a mixture of things to get ahead of this virus and save as many lives as possible. Obviously there is no perfect solution so it comes down to finding the best solutions given the circumstances. We can only control what we can control. There are things we can do to minimize the damage of this virus. None of them perfect but perfect is the enemy of good enough and there is no perfect under these circumstances.


Contact tracing (and this is beyond my knowledge right now but however we can track new cases to prevent others getting infected), self quarantining as necessary, wearing protective masks etc when going out to protect others, social distancing to protect yourself and others, and just taking it one day at a time.

It is a new world and we have to adapt or we won't survive. And I agree @nala we all must sacrifice.

 

[nala]

I think we need a mixture of things to get ahead of this virus and save as many lives as possible. Obviously there is no perfect solution so it comes down to finding the best solutions given the circumstances. We can only control what we can control. There are things we can do to minimize the damage of this virus. None of them perfect but perfect is the enemy of good enough and there is no perfect under these circumstances.


Contact tracing (and this is beyond my knowledge right now but however we can track new cases to prevent others getting infected), self quarantining as necessary, wearing protective masks etc when going out to protect others, social distancing to protect yourself and others, and just taking it one day at a time.

It is a new world and we have to adapt or we won't survive. And I agree @nala we all must sacrifice.

We do. And as states, we are all in different stages. But the reality that most stay-at-home-forever supporters do not address is the long-term damage that staying home is having on so many other aspects of our life: education, mental health, etc. SIP was not meant to be permanent. And some states more than others are ready to move on from quarantine, while still practicing social distancing and wearing masks. No one is expecting life to go back to normal, but that is where contact tracing and protecting the vulnerable comes in. And I can sit here and start a gazillion threads on Trump all the while I ignore that as humans, we all have made some terrible choices. Beach goers, New Yorkers in Central Park, etc. There are people who will not comply and accept our new world, so it’s up to the rest of us to work with what we have. But people are so insistent on being right that they stop engaging in discussion as they launch personal attacks at anyone who is open to seeing the world differently.

 

[AGBF]

Hi. You’ve obviously missed my other posts. You are eager to blame Trump. Yet. I have posted that our liberal governor Newsom is reopening beaches and parts of the state. You conveniently don’t address that. Don’t you get it? You also ignore contact tracing. Don’t you get that contact tracing will help to reduce deaths? Yet, you don’t advocate for that. You insist on blaming Trump or clobbering me for suggesting that it’s time to move on from quarantine to contact tracing. Don’t you get it? We all have the choice to do that. Or we can all sit around and blame people much like you are as we ignore our new reality that we must all sacrifice. You are ok sacrificing your freedom, but I guess you draw the line at privacy—like so many others. Stop. Don’t you get it? Stop trying to guilt and shame others if you don’t realize that contact tracing is more significant now than quarantine. Don’t you get it?

I don't care who "re-opens" businesses. I am not "ignoring" your point; It doesn't affect my argument.

And contact tracing is a moot point now. No one can contact trace when there are no tests. So far there are no tests. So nothing should be "re-opened" unless we want to invite a spike in deaths.

 

[nala]

I don't care who "re-opens" businesses. I am not "ignoring" your point;.It doesn't affect my argument.

And contact tracing is a moot point now. No one can contact trace when there are no tests. So far there are no tests. So nothing should be "re-opened" unless we want to ynvite a spike in deaths.

Maybe not in YOUR neck of the woods. Don’t pretend to know about every city or every state. Please inform yourself.

 

[Missy]

I don't care who "re-opens" businesses. I am not "ignoring" your point;It doesn't affect my argument.

And contact tracing is a moot point now. No one can contact trace when there are no tests. So far there are no tests. So nothing should be "re-opened" unless we want to invite a spike in deaths. Trump is willing to. You seem to be, too.

Deb I agree we must have tests in order to reopen. I have to research this but I listened to Governors Cuomo and Murphy yesterday and I think they said we’re able to test more now. Is it enough? Probably not but hopefully each week will bring more testing capability. And I think I remember them saying if we can get to test 30% of the population we can open more safely. As long as we do it in stages.

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

What is it like where you are @nala

What's the general gist amongst people you know? Do you get groceries once a week? More than that? Less than that? Buy take out? Go for walks?

Our government updated their virus maps and there are only about 3 active cases in each suburb.

Our Premier is on every few days telling people to go get tested even if they have a sore throat or a sniffle. She expesses disappointment when we don't report large testing numbers. It's like a "Now don't be shy because it's the weekend! Go get tested!" or "Not many of you presented for testing in the last few days. We need to test more!"
Not exact quotes but you get the idea.
We have the app.

I dodge people but on the whole I'm very comfortable grocery shopping or even venturing out to support certain businesses. I'm going to look for a good sushi joint next.......

Hubby is being asked to return to work three days in a few weeks. We're ok with that. Got to start somewhere......

 

[AGBF]

Maybe not in YOUR neck of the woods. Don’t pretend to know about every city or every state. Please inform yourself.

And before you act as if contact tracing is a possibility, maybe you should find out if most of the United States can test for covid19. The US Senate couldn't be tested because there weren't enough tests. Doesn't that tell you something?

 

[Missy]

What is it like where you are @nala

What's the general gist amongst people you know? Do you get groceries once a week? More than that? Less than that? Buy take out? Go for walks?

Our government updated their virus maps and there are only about 3 active cases in each suburb.

Our Premier is on every few days telling people to go get tested even if they have a sore throat or a sniffle. She expesses disappointment when we don't report large testing numbers. It's like a "Now don't be shy because it's the weekend! Go get tested!" or "Not many of you presented for testing in the last few days. We need to test more!"
Not exact quotes but you get the idea.
We have the app.

I dodge people but on the whole I'm very comfortable grocery shopping or even venturing out to support certain businesses. I'm going to look for a good sushi joint next.......

Hubby is being asked to return to work three days in a few weeks. We're ok with that. Got to start somewhere......

I’m very pleased for you @mellowyellowgirl. The USA is very far behind you but we are dealing with different states who as @nala pointed out have very different scenarios.

NYC for example, our population is so dense, so crowded. We live in top of each other in NYC. It’s different in states where there are hardly any cases and as long as people are not infecting others there it can die down and life can resume with more of a semblance of normality.

But you guys tested/test everyone. We’re not ever going to be able to do that in NYC. But we have to test more to safely reopen.

IMO



And I don’t have the statics re testing of the entire USA. But I believe @AGBF is correct. We’re still not where we need to be. But some states are getting there faster.

 

[nala]

What is it like where you are @nala

What's the general gist amongst people you know? Do you get groceries once a week? More than that? Less than that? Buy take out? Go for walks?

Our government updated their virus maps and there are only about 3 active cases in each suburb.

Our Premier is on every few days telling people to go get tested even if they have a sore throat or a sniffle. She expesses disappointment when we don't report large testing numbers. It's like a "Now don't be shy because it's the weekend! Go get tested!" or "Not many of you presented for testing in the last few days. We need to test more!"
Not exact quotes but you get the idea.
We have the app.

I dodge people but on the whole I'm very comfortable grocery shopping or even venturing out to support certain businesses. I'm going to look for a good sushi joint next.......

Hubby is being asked to return to work three days in a few weeks. We're ok with that. Got to start somewhere......

I agree. Some of us are ready to start somewhere. I grocery shop once a week And do take-out every other day. Many of my loved ones have not stopped working and many work from home. The parks are open for exercise and the majority wear masks and social distance. I have been going to the park once a week or walking my neighborhood daily. That said, I do not venture out into the beach areas bc I know that many beach goers do not wear masks or social distance in those areas. Our numbers are good. I don’t know anyone who has Covid and neither do my loved ones. I’ve read that anyone can get a test done at this point but I don’t know anyone who has.

 

[nala]

And before you act as if contact tracing is a possibility, maybe you should find out if most of the United States can test for covid19. The US Senate couldn't be tested because there weren't enough tests. Doesn't that tell you something?

Hi. Please read my posts. Some states. Some states can move on. Not sure why you are lashing out at me.

 

[House Cat]

Unfortunately this is not accurate.

Posting info for any interested lurkers/bystanders, as we've gone on and on and on about this already....

Virologists and epidemiologists think that the viral load in our environment will be too high. So even high risk population isolating will eventually not be able to avoid the virus.
(Via direct contact with medical staff, delivery people, caregivers, walkers by and by AC systems, contaminated goods/objects).
I've linked studies to this before.


THAT'S (together with flattening the curve in order to not overload the medical system) the reason of the stay at home orders for everyone.

May I please see those studies? Our search engine is impossible here. I have vulnerable family members and I would like to see what I will be up against soon.

 

[arkieb1]

I don't have a smartphone, so no ap, and no contact tracing for me ... not that I'd consent to it.

I understand the point of it.
It would be ideal in an ideal world with only ideal people, but in this world with these people it creeps me out.
Once data is out there someone somehow will figure out a way to abuse it.

I had mixed feelings about installing an App where the Government can monitor it's citizens too but then I thought of it like this, most people (you are probably the exception) post a zillion personal things on places like Facebook, Instagram and so on.... and marketing companies collect data every time each one of us posts something.

And they have also been hacked, as has online banking and a whole heap of other things that most of us use. As far as big brother am I suspicious of my government tracking me? I figure nearly 4 million people have signed up, I'm just one of them, and I'm not that important that they are going to pay any specific attention to me unless I get the virus....

They have been marketing it here that we should suck it up for the good of everyone in our society. But even if you didn't have a smartphone they would still be able to contact trace you, here they contact you via phone, they go and knock on your door if someone near you or that you have been in contact with has the virus. So regardless there is still contact tracing and tracking and tracing.

We are doing it so well here, I think that is why the numbers of infected and dead are so low. And the plan to save the economy is to ramp up the tracking and tracing and the testing including random testing, to try and keep ahead of the infection, something unfortunately that was never done well in the US.

But it isn't too late for some states and places in the US with low infection rates to look at what other countries and places are doing and observe what is working and what isn't.

 

[House Cat]

@nala , I’m in California too. I’m not confident that we have the tests to reopen as of yet. Each county has to prove it has the hospital beds, tests, and contract tracing ability to serve their population in order to open. They definitely don’t have that that. We just took in our first patient at the converted stadium hospital in our area. Our numbers are still increasing. I’m not happy about going to phase 2. I believe it is way too soon and strictly money driven.

 

[arkieb1]

The common sense approach should be states with low infection numbers that have contained the virus contact track and trace as much as possible and start to reopen things. Places and states with high numbers need to flatten the curve until it is manageable and stay in lock down longer, or simply allow the whole of their citizens to get the virus.

I believe the most balanced approach would be, open some things in states and places where infection numbers are low try and control the numbers, but, if they get above a certain point, reintroduce tighter restrictions, when the numbers are back under control loosen them.

The very best outcome requires a fine juggling act between economy/people's jobs, metal health, normal lives versus the health risk of the virus.....

Until there is a vaccine widely available that's the options......

 

[Queenie60]

I'm in No. Cal, Silicon Valley and we are not opening up as of yet. We are SIP through the month of May. I would like to see gradual opening with restrictions however, I am not yet ready to go full force. I feel that we need to start somewhere as many small business operators are suffering greatly. I try to see the broad picture as my husband and I discussed, "we live in a bubble" as our area thrives on technology and most are employed. Myself and most of my friends and family do not know anyone with Covid. There's so much information being put out in many directions, as well as opinions based on political affiliations. As @nala said, our liberal Governor Newsom has authorized beaches to reopen, this puzzles me. I do venture out to the grocery store, pharmacy, and today I am going to be very brave and go to Costco as I want to restock essentials. I do go into my office about 3 days per week for a few hours as I am not good at working from home. I wish that we could all proceed with caution and use our intelligence and common sense to begin living the new normal lifestyle. Although I do not agree with our Governor on many issues, I am not going to blame him - we should all take our individual circumstances into our own hands and stop blaming and shaming. We're better than that.

 

[Arcadian]

Miami Beach just reclosed their parks as of yesterday. People are being idiots no social distance and not wearing masks. So they closed them again.

People love to get on Florida's case, But from what I've seen Florida is doing the best it can given some circumstances. The hardest hit areas are the ones most populated. Less hard hit areas are opening slowly and of course as the numbers aren't going up (and they're going down in those areas for a few reasons) they're allowed to do some common sense opening in Phase I.

I do feel that after looking at the plans as they've been made transparent across the state and counties, they're very common sense. People want their outside and in fact, need it. I say let them have it if they can behave. This is the very reason why Miami Beach lost their parks yet again. And in fact, because Miami Dade was hard hit with a lot of cases, Masks became mandatory to go outside in several places and you must wear one in a grocery store. They're not supposed to do any AirB&B and I'm hearing that there's illegal AirB&B going on down there. Hotels should not be renting rooms but they are....its a slight mess down there because people are protesting, they want their freedom, they want their beach, they want to work and they are mad about being kept indoors or, being told you can't do something. Miami is a very blue area and they're screaming the loudest.

The good is this: this year you probably won't see as many tourists because Cruise ships will not be sailing. Disney Universal and other parks are still closed. Orlando is brutal in summer anyway. The Keys MAY open in June to tourists but maybe not. Beaches in the hardest hit areas may well remain closed for a while, though you do have people taking the chance and using them anyway (and being cited/fined and told to leave)

In fact, June-September can be sparse as no snowbirds or tourists in my area which should give stores opportunity to figure out how they will handle things going forward.

Unknowns are Hurricane Season. We could be screwed if we get hit this year.

 

[nala]

@nala , I’m in California too. I’m not confident that we have the tests to reopen as of yet. Each county has to prove it has the hospital beds, tests, and contract tracing ability to serve their population in order to open. They definitely don’t have that that. We just took in our first patient at the converted stadium hospital in our area. Our numbers are still increasing. I’m not happy about going to phase 2. I believe it is way too soon and strictly money driven.

We are being reassured that we are ready. And yes, tests are available in my area. Here is why I don’t think that it is money-driven. I know some medical personnel that were laid off because people are reluctant to keep their appointments for preventative healthcare and some doctors offices also closed. This concerns me greatly bc time is of the essence in detecting other life threatening diseases such as cancer. We can’t lose sight of all the other killers out there because they are not as infectious. My sister has been waiting on an ultra sound to a mammogram follow up since the SIP. I’m glad that we did finally open non-emergency healthcare as of last week. It’s not all about the money. I know a couple of recovering alcoholics who depended on AA and I have been praying for them after they told me how essential their meetings are. I’m not advocating for letting loose in every aspect, and I was disappointed to hear that newsom agreed to open the beaches because I think that beach goers haven’t earned that trust. But Newsom said that he is driven by data and the data did not show an alarming spike even after the first beach protests.
ETA:

• In 2018, an estimated 1,735,350 new cases of cancer will be diagnosed in the United States and 609,640 people will die from the disease (National Cancer Institute)

Sometimes I am tempted to compare Covid to cancer in that Covid seems to be random. Yes, covid is infectious and you can’t catch cancer, but, no one really understands why some do not manifest. Besides high risk factors for Covid, and high risk factors for cancer, the fatal cases seem to be so random. But that’s just me musing out loud and coming to understand that at least with Covid, we can use contact tracing so that our deaths are not as high as cancer’s. Covid does not have to be a death sentence for everyone, and the rates of survival are a lot better than cancer. Obesity seems to be a major determinant and that is one aspect we can individually work on without the government’s help.

 

[Missy]

People love to get on Florida's case, But from what I've seen Florida is doing the best it can given some circumstances. The hardest hit areas are the ones most populated.

Agree and same with NYC. We are hard hit in our most densely populated areas. Governor Cuomo is doing the best he can IMO.

FEMA has increased their projected death rate in the USA by June. From 60,000 deaths to 134,000 deaths. How did this happen?

Models Project Sharp Rise in Deaths as States Reopen (Published 2020)

An internal Trump administration report expects about 200,000 daily cases by June. The White House bars coronavirus task force officials from testifying to Congress without approval.

www.nytimes.com

"The institute wrote that the revisions reflected “rising mobility in most U.S. states as well as the easing of social distancing measures expected in 31 states by May 11, indicating that growing contacts among people will promote transmission of the coronavirus.”

When you accelerate the reopening more people come into contact with more people and the higher the infection rate of the virus. And more people die.

What government does today will directly affect lives tomorrow. The federal government must work together so they can pass bipartisan legislation. I am going to avoid discussing Trump because I might say somethings that will offend some here. But I will not censor what I think and he is a low life IMO.


These are the hard truths we are all dealing with now. How much is a human life worth? IMO it is priceless. NY's reopening plan according to Cuomo does not have a tradeoff. We monitor and if the death rate goes up we close the valve on reopening.


Yes we must get back to working but depending on the state we need to do it in stages and some have to go more slowly than others. But we must continuously monitor and reevaluate so we can save the maximum amount of lives as possible. As Governor Murphy likes to say public health precedes economic health.

 

[Missy]

And it is counterproductive for the politicians to keep bickering. Red state, blue state. C'mon.
"It's not you or me it's we" (Cuomo's phrase).

We have a collective interest. It's not red or blue. Coronavirus kills people regardless of their political party.

Stop the partisanship and politics. Pass legislation to get the economy back on its feet.
We have a national crisis. A pandemic killing tens of thousands of people. Put the politics aside for now.

We all have a responsibility. We keep ourselves safe. The smart and right thing to do is wear a mask if you go out.
It is not about you. It is about protecting others. Wear a mask. If we all wear a mask we are protecting everyone.

COVID-19

wearamask.ny.gov

 

[Dancing Fire]

However the impression I am under is that for some people flattening the curve is not enough. It seems like they want everyone to stay home until there is a vaccine or they are at virtually zero risk of catching the virus at all. I don't know if this is true but this is the impression I am getting.

If this is true then we probably have to stay home for at least another yr.

 

[nala]

I had mixed feelings about installing an App where the Government can monitor it's citizens too but then I thought of it like this, most people (you are probably the exception) post a zillion personal things on places like Facebook, Instagram and so on.... and marketing companies collect data every time each one of us posts something.

And they have also been hacked, as has online banking and a whole heap of other things that most of us use. As far as big brother am I suspicious of my government tracking me? I figure nearly 4 million people have signed up, I'm just one of them, and I'm not that important that they are going to pay any specific attention to me unless I get the virus....

They have been marketing it here that we should suck it up for the good of everyone in our society. But even if you didn't have a smartphone they would still be able to contact trace you, here they contact you via phone, they go and knock on your door if someone near you or that you have been in contact with has the virus. So regardless there is still contact tracing and tracking and tracing.

We are doing it so well here, I think that is why the numbers of infected and dead are so low. And the plan to save the economy is to ramp up the tracking and tracing and the testing including random testing, to try and keep ahead of the infection, something unfortunately that was never done well in the US.

But it isn't too late for some states and places in the US with low infection rates to look at what other countries and places are doing and observe what is working and what isn't.

Thank you. I hope you can motivate others to participate when the time comes. I totally agree with you that it’s ironic that a society that thrives on public attention and jeopardizes their data by the minute due to frivolous reasons, finds it questionable to participate even if it’s going to help save lives.

 

[Dancing Fire]

DF, your thinking makes so much sense that I'm starting to see it your way.

Your daughter does not have to work in the hospital! This is America where we all have freedom! Your daughter and all her medical professional co-workers can choose to stay home.

No problem I'll tell my daughter Maria will pay her mortgage and buy diapers for her babies.

 

[Tekate]

So, you are putting YOU and your wife's life in danger (your daughter and SIL def are) because you all think daycare isn't as safe as granny and granddaddy's? meanwhile mommy and daddy work and easily can bring home the virus for granny and granddaddy as Trumpski would say: NOT SMART. And mommy and daddy could easily afford it. It's THEIR responsibility to take care of their kid(s) at their financial cost. To me you are free labor, sorta like being a socialist. (or egads even communist!)

I'm a super granny too, BUT I consider it my son and DIL's responsibility to take care of my granddaughter every day, I'm available for sick days (till Covid happened anyway) we love our granddaughter but I didn't have my sons so I could turn into a full time grandmother on call and free

My bestie's DIL said: Children are little vectors of disease, stay away from them till AT least late November.

DIL creds:
B.S. in Molecular and Cellular Biology and, University of Arizona Honors College, 2007

Ph.D. in Molecular and Cell Biology UC Berkly

Post Doc fellow at UT studying bacterial on a 50K per year fellowship

So man up and get your kid off the Dad/Mom dole and free yourself to go shopping and eating out every day! Trump commands it.

Since when is daycare 100% safe? Plus I'm sure we give much better care to our grandkids than any daycare would. My wife is a super grandma.