Real People Are Dying / Trump Kills

[nala]

We have beaches, lots of beaches here in Australia and they shut them down. Many not happy at all but no radical “protests”, no chanting about loss of personal rights or “freedom”.
Most Australians accept that the “we”, the “all of us” is more important than the “I” or “me”.
Police enforce the rules, big fines for anyone defying the rules.
We also have less than 100 deaths.
Repeat, less than 100 deaths.

How are you guys handling contact tracing? In another thread, several posters were adamantly opposed to contact tracing which I would consider to be a most effective tool to restoring normalcy and saving lives. I’m still shocked because the majority of the posters who are constantly advocating fir SIP draw the line at sacrificing their privacy. So. How did you guys strike a balance?

 

[1ofakind]

Please don’t misunderstand, I’m not protesting, I don’t live near a beach and I’m staying in although few people in our area have been infected. The risk here is extremely low...I feel silly wearing a mask in public low but I still wear it. But it is confusing and frustrating to have the goal change from not overwhelming the system to what now seems like a nearly impossible standard to be released from the quarantines.

 

[arkieb1]

How are you guys handling contact tracing? In another thread, several posters were adamantly opposed to contact tracing which I would consider to be a most effective tool to restoring normalcy and saving lives. I’m still shocked because the majority of the posters who are constantly advocating fir SIP draw the line at sacrificing their privacy. So. How did you guys strike a balance?

We have a low infection rate compared to the US and most (not all but most) cases came from cruise ships and International travellers so each person that has been positive has every person they can remember being in contact with tracked and traced. We have task forces of people working 24/7 here tracking and tracing.

The government has also introduced this;

Last weekend Australia released Covidsafe, an app that collects, via bluetooth, records of other people with the app who have been in close proximity within the past 21 days.

Covidsafe app: how to download Australia's coronavirus contact tracing app and how it works

Aside from registration data, the information remains on the phone until a user who tests positive to Covid-19 consents to upload it. The data can then be used to trace the contacts of the infected person.

The Australian model has attracted criticism because of the amount of data held by the federal government, even though the government has stressed only state health officials will have access to it.


More than 3.5 million people downloaded the app in the first five days following its release. Uptake is voluntary, but the prime minister, Scott Morrison, has said “millions more” will be needed. He said uptake of the app would inform discussions in national cabinet about easing restrictions.

 

[nala]

We have a low infection rate compared to the US and most (not all but most) cases came from cruise ships and International travellers so each person that has been positive has every person they can remember being in contact with tracked and traced. We have task forces of people working 24/7 here tracking and tracing.

The government has also introduced this;

Last weekend Australia released Covidsafe, an app that collects, via bluetooth, records of other people with the app who have been in close proximity within the past 21 days.

Covidsafe app: how to download Australia's coronavirus contact tracing app and how it works

Aside from registration data, the information remains on the phone until a user who tests positive to Covid-19 consents to upload it. The data can then be used to trace the contacts of the infected person.

The Australian model has attracted criticism because of the amount of data held by the federal government, even though the government has stressed only state health officials will have access to it.


More than 3.5 million people downloaded the app in the first five days following its release. Uptake is voluntary, but the prime minister, Scott Morrison, has said “millions more” will be needed. He said uptake of the app would inform discussions in national cabinet about easing restrictions.

Please keep us posted. I am all for an app like this if it is gonna lead to normalcy and less infections!

 

[arkieb1]

Please keep us posted. I am all for an app like this if it is gonna lead to normalcy and less infections!

I guess the problem with it both here and in the US is that people are claiming it violates their civil liberties. Americans in particular fear the government monitoring them. Here it's been marketed that they are not going to do anything negative with our personal information and that the more people that sign up the better it will be for everyone.

 

[nala]

I guess the problem with it both here and in the US is that people are claiming it violates their civil liberties. Americans in particular fear the government monitoring them. Here it's been marketed that they are not going to do anything negative with our personal information and that the more people that sign up the better it will be for everyone.

Well we can’t blame all the deaths on the government if we all don’t give a little. We can’t shame people on the need to live in perpetual quarantine while eschewing a simple tool that can save just as many lives as quarantine. At some point, people need to realize that our reality has changed and permanent quarantine is not realistic. I’m not just referring to the economy but mental health, learning inequalities, domestic violence, alcoholism, depression... the list goes on and on and we don’t exactly have time on our side so we need every weapon that technology can afford us.

 

[kenny]

I don't have a smartphone, so no ap, and no contact tracing for me ... not that I'd consent to it.

I understand the point of it.
It would be ideal in an ideal world with only ideal people, but in this world with these people it creeps me out.
Once data is out there someone somehow will figure out a way to abuse it.

 

[Dancing Fire]

And by, "the most vulnerable among us" I'm referring to those most likely to die if they get COVID-19.
Those over 60, and those with certain medical conditions ... and I have more than one of those.

So Am I. I can quarantine myself forever if I so chose to however, I have no right to ask my neighbors to quarantine themself.

 

[nala]

So Am I. I can quarantine myself forever if I so chose to however, I have no right to ask my neighbors to quarantine themself.

Just like I have no right to ask Kenny to get an app and participate in contact tracing. I guess we all have the right to protect what we value. Let’s stop the shaming and guilting and blaming that is so prevalent in these Covid threads. The reality is that most people will only go so far in their sacrifice for the lives of others.

 

[kenny]

So Am I. I can quarantine myself forever if I so chose to however, I have no right to ask my neighbors to quarantine themself.

Fine.
Let them roam around and turn themseves into virus factories ... increasing your risk of getting it and dying.

You are free to not understand this, or if you do understand to not care that you may die because of what you give your neighbors carte blanche to do..

This isn't about individuals.
It's about people, as a herd vs. a deadly pandemic.

 

[kenny]

Just like I have no right to ask Kenny to get an app and participate in contact tracing. I guess we all have the right to protect what we value. Let’s stop the shaming and guilting and blaming that is so prevalent in these Covid threads. The reality is that most people will only go so far in their sacrifice for the lives of others.

Go ahead and shame me.
I don't shive a git.

And I WILL shame people who do bad things, like putting others at higher risk because they are selfish.
Saving lives is the right thing to do.

Body count: quarter of a million, and counting.

 

[nala]

Go ahead and shame me.
I don't shive a git.

And I WILL shame people who do bad things, like putting others at higher risk because they are selfish.

You missed my point. I was being sincere. But ok. Let’s go with your attitude. You are being selfish bc this app creeps you out. This app that could potentially prevent thousands of deaths. This app could help humanity restore normalcy. Education. Mental health. Etc. But because of your feelings and your distrust, let’s eschew a powerful weapon. Fine. Be selfish. Or acknowledge that everyone is selfish to an extent and at least have the decency to stop the blame game. Sigh.

 

[nala]

Fine.
Let them roam around and turn themseves into virus factories ... increasing your risk of getting it and dying.

You are free to not understand this, or if you do understand to not care that you may die because of what you give your neighbors carte blanche to do..

This isn't about individuals.
It's about people, as a herd vs. a deadly pandemic.

What is your plan? To live in quarantine forever? It is your choice. Order food delivery then. Why insist that everyone do as you do?

 

[Dancing Fire]

Fine.
Let them roam around and turn themseves into virus factories ... increasing your risk of getting it and dying.

If that were to happen then it is my fault for not staying home. Wife and I take a risk everyday by coming in contact with DD#2 who works in the hospital. We have no choice since we are babysitting her kids.

 

[Tekate]

So - you have choices we all have choices but you have NO choice but to babysit... you don't have to babysit - tell DD2 to bring the kid(s) to daycare, my son does.

If that were to happen then it is my fault for not staying home. Wife and I take a risk everyday by coming in contact with DD#2 who works in the hospital. We have no choice since we are babysitting her kids.

 

[kenny]

If that were to happen then it is my fault for not staying home. Wife and I take a risk everyday by coming in contact with DD#2 who works in the hospital. We have no choice since we are babysitting her kids.

You do have a choice.
Just say no.
Kids are the parent's responsibility.

If you can't take care of kids, use condoms.

 

[Dancing Fire]

So - you have choices we all have choices but you have NO choice but to babysit... you don't have to babysit - tell DD2 to bring the kid(s) to daycare, my son does.

Since when is daycare 100% safe? Plus I'm sure we give much better care to our grandkids than any daycare would. My wife is a super grandma.

 

[Karl_K]

I do not agree with you about Joe Biden, but I was very saddened to see George W. Bush treated the way he was by Donald Trump. What kind of man rejects a call for unity in a time of national crisis?

Trump can not win reelection in a united America and he does not like someone reminding the People what it means to have a president who cares.

 

[Dancing Fire]

You do have a choice.
Just say no.
Kids are the parent's responsibility.

If you can't take care of kids, use condoms.

If we weren't babysitting our grandkids we would have kill each other by now.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

Deb, as an outsider looking in, the US is showing the rest of the world what not to do. And before DF or anyone else wants to argue it's all about the economy and so on, as I keep pointing out we have a conservative government in Australia as do many other places and they have done a FAR better job of balancing saving people's lives and managing the economy.....

Trump has no clue how to handle this crisis, it's been mismanaged from start to end. The saddest part for me isn't that he is an idiot that has no idea how to handle a health and economic crisis of this scale, it's that his loyal and devoted followers will re elect him again irrespective of how many innocent elderly, poor, and sick people he kills.

People in the US don't get, it they want their jobs, they are doing it tough - so is every other country out there...... this is a disease that doesn't care about employment or about poverty in fact it will kill far more poor people and elderly than anyone else.

So open your beaches, open your borders, open your restaurants and cafes and shops, but when other areas start to look like New York, the people who marched and wrote that the economy is more important than everyone else should put up their hands and accept this is what THEY wanted....

Scott Morrison is doing a great job
it will hooefully be the making of him as a PM

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

I do not agree with you about Joe Biden, but I was very saddened to see George W. Bush treated the way he was by Donald Trump. What kind of man rejects a call for unity in a time of national crisis?

the same kind of man who was so disrespectful to Sen John McCain and his family

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

Our country is leaderless.
The speech by Bush made me cry, reminding me when while we did not have perfect leadership we had leaders.
The very sad thing is I dont see Biden being able to lead the country either.
As much as I hate Hillary and what she would have tried to pass as far as laws she would have been a better leader than Trump during this time.
It is impossible for anyone to be any worse.

do you remember when President GW Bush.....i dont remember all the details but he was talking to families of soldiers who had died in the war on terror ?
this one bereived mom just went complete off her rocker in grief and anger at the President of the United States leader of the free word ...and he just let her say her thing and sat there and took it like a gentleman because that's the kind of man his mama raised him to be
impeccable manners - good manners still matter - kind and considerate

and even though naturally from the otherside of the world i don't get a vote but we sure have done alot worse than if we had got another Bush in the white house

this is the first president of my lifetime (well i only remenber back to President Carter) that i have thought is not a nice person - all the others have/had such charisma and charm and have also gone on to do such good work after leaving the white house
always made me so happy when President Clinton and President Dad Bush did good work together
can you imangine this one doing anything good after he leaves the white house - let alone with President Obama ?

this covid 19 crisis could have been the making of Donald Trump but he just doesn't care about all of America - just his American

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

We have beaches, lots of beaches here in Australia and they shut them down. Many not happy at all but no radical “protests”, no chanting about loss of personal rights or “freedom”.
Most Australians accept that the “we”, the “all of us” is more important than the “I” or “me”.
Police enforce the rules, big fines for anyone defying the rules.
We also have less than 100 deaths.
Repeat, less than 100 deaths.

personally im doing my best to be a good citizen and do what im told by Jisinta Arden even though i would never ever vote labour
saddly all our deaths - 20 in total have all been people over 60 and 19 of those over 70 and tragically half of those from the one aged care facility
no nation has got this completly right
but im going to do everything in my power not to do anything that night mean even one other person dies in my country
i choose - for my own piece of mind to trust that Ms Adern is listening to her advisors- advisors who do not have a political agenda and who know more than i do
if that means i have to stay home, can't get a hair cut, can't go to pub or what ever else of the many many things im not allowed to do right now then im doing it.i trust our political system that these restrictions are for our own good and are only temporary and besides we have an election in September

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

But on the other hand isn't it selfish of Kenny to take freedom away from other people?.. IOW, it doesn't matter if the public were 100% infected with the virus Kenny can protect himself by staying home.

Unfortunately this is not accurate.

Posting info for any interested lurkers/bystanders, as we've gone on and on and on about this already....

Virologists and epidemiologists think that the viral load in our environment will be too high. So even high risk population isolating will eventually not be able to avoid the virus.
(Via direct contact with medical staff, delivery people, caregivers, walkers by and by AC systems, contaminated goods/objects).
I've linked studies to this before.


THAT'S (together with flattening the curve in order to not overload the medical system) the reason of the stay at home orders for everyone.

 

[kenny]

If we weren't babysitting our grandkids we would have kill each other by now.

... yes ... and ... ?

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

@kipari what you say makes sense and I completely understand flattening the curve even if I personally don't like it. I do what my government tells me though and I have the app on permanently.

However the impression I am under is that for some people flattening the curve is not enough. It seems like they want everyone to stay home until there is a vaccine or they are at virtually zero risk of catching the virus at all. I don't know if this is true but this is the impression I am getting.

I guess my question is, are many of you panicking because your curve has not flattened and you do not have enough ICU beds to take people in if they get sick? Would you be ok with people being allowed to live their lives again if there were enough ICU beds so that if you catch it badly you can go to ICU? Do you expect this virus to be stamped out completely and for everyone to stay home until the number of cases drops to...5?

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

Scott Morrison is doing a great job
it will hooefully be the making of him as a PM

Scott Morrison is an interesting case. He really strikes me as a very conservative man who is pro economy. So in the case of this virus, if the conservative pro economy man closes borders and tells you to stay the F home, you do it because sh@t must be bad!

I say this as someone who reeeeeeeeaallly haaaaaaaaaates quarantining and would be more pro risk.

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

@kipari what you say makes sense and I completely understand flattening the curve even if I personally don't like it. I do what my government tells me though and I have the app on permanently.

However the impression I am under is that for some people flattening the curve is not enough. It seems like they want everyone to stay home until there is a vaccine or they are at virtually zero risk of catching the virus at all. I don't know if this is true but this is the impression I am getting.

I guess my question is, are many of you panicking because your curve has not flattened and you do not have enough ICU beds to take people in if they get sick? Would you be ok with people being allowed to live their lives again if there were enough ICU beds so that if you catch it badly you can go to ICU? Do you expect this virus to be stamped out completely and for everyone to stay home until the number of cases drops to...5?

@mellowyellowgirl , I was referring to the argument that everyone should do as they please, because people at risk can just stay at home. This is not the case.



I personally do not think everyone everywhere should stay at home.

But it's complicated and I gather the impression that most people will not employ common sense, sadly. Was it @missy who so aptly said 'the masses are @sses"?

So I'm inclined to follow the experts' opinion and I welcome that our European governments give directions as to what is a bearable risk ATM in one's respective region under one's respective circumstances...and which risks should not be taken in order to keep new infections under the critical numbers.
They back up their directives with scientific arguments, are pretty transparent and the experts are widely heard and respected. New findings are communicated widely and openly.


Jmho ymmv

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

Scott Morrison is an interesting case. He really strikes me as a very conservative man who is pro economy. So in the case of this virus, if the conservative pro economy man closes borders and tells you to stay the F home, you do it because sh@t must be bad!

I say this as someone who reeeeeeeeaallly haaaaaaaaaates quarantining and would be more pro risk.

that's a very good point

 

[Missy]

Would you be ok with people being allowed to live their lives again if there were enough ICU beds so that if you catch it badly you can go to ICU?

Unfortunately having an ICU bed available is only a part of the issue....because too large a percentage of people who come to ICU with Covid 19 die. Translates to many many many tens of thousands (to more than a hundred thousand (USA) by some estimates by June) dying in the hospital.

We need people to wear masks correctly. We need people to minimize going out and when they do to social distance. We need time to work on treatments that are successful as well as developing a vaccine that may or may not work. And yes, we need to flatten the curve so when people do get ill they can go to the hospital and get whatever treatment is available as well as supportive treatment to maximize their chance of recovery. It is not a simple solution as OK let the most vulnerable among us isolate and everyone else go live your lives. We do need to work together to minimize the loss of life and maximize the chances of finding what works against this virus.

Yes I gladly give up some of my privacy in order to save more lives. Yes I gladly will give up my rights to roam free whenever and wherever I want to save others. The life we save might be someone we love but even if it isn't it's still a life and to turn a blind eye saying all I care about is how this is affecting me is selfish behavior. IMO.

To be clear I am *not* saying we all should stay home forever. But let's open up slowly and wisely and carefully gauge what is happening so we can minimize deaths.

But it's complicated and I gather the impression that most people will not employ common sense, sadly. Was it @missy who so aptly said 'the masses are @sses"?

Governor Murphy (NJ) was out this weekend at a park in Monmouth County and he was saying 90% of the people were *not* wearing masks. Why are people so resistant to wearing masks? Not talking about PSers. Just from my observations I SMH. @kipari yes sadly I stand by "the masses are @sses". And I will add the masses are selfish too.

I do not have the answers. But I know opening slowly while monitoring the situation and continuing social distancing and wearing masks til we have a handle on this virus is the wisest way to proceed. Or we can be like Sweden and sacrifice the elderly and the physically weak. I choose the former because I give a da*n about others.

As Governor Murphy has been saying: "In order to restore economic health, we must first promote public health. Our priority is to use science, data, and facts to put us on the road to recovery.
Restarting the economy and returning people to work will be done methodically, strategically, and responsibly."

And we are learning as we go. The more carefully we go the more we learn and the more we learn the more lives we can save. If we rush back to "life as normal" we can lose all the strides we have made and push ourselves further into an economic depression and lose many more countless lives.