Question for the Color Sensitive Ladies/Gents.

[MissAva]

When they say larger stones what do they mean? Larger then .50 ct? Sorry to be a bother just trying to understand.

 

[sjz]

I took it to mean stones larger than .50 carat will begin to show color more easily in the near colorless range.

 

[Jennifer5973]

Date: 8/17/2005 11:00:54 PM
Author: sjz
I took it to mean stones larger than .50 carat will begin to show color more easily in the near colorless range.

Yes--clearly the "near colorless" comments among stones in the H-J range apply for smaller stones (< .5 per the article) but as stones get larger (typical ering size, for example), the subtle differences become more pronounced, even from the top. Sicne we tend to discuss mainly .5 ct and above here for erings, it is more appropriate to consider the information according to size (.5 and above) parameters, unless you want a ring with melee.

Speaking of which....Interesting...I had a flower ring once with 7 very well cut (distinct arrows, nice crown heights) RBs, .15 ea in size, and the "petal" stones were E-Fs while the center was a J, and I could see the warmth in the center stone from the top--through the sparkle it was just a little bit "off" from the icy white of the other stones--it was done on purpose for the design to give the center some distinction but I had the middle switched out to an F.... it bothered my eyes.

 

[Jennifer5973]

This is from the Pricescope Diamond Book -> Education -> The Quick Basics

Color

Most diamonds have a hint of yellow or brown. The rarest and most expensive are D or icy-white - on a scale that goes to Z.

Color is graded by comparison with a master set stones from the side position and can be easier noticed in larger or glassy looking shapes like Emerald diamonds. Ideal cut rounds return a lot of white light in the face up position. Therefore, ideal cut round diamond can appear whiter in every day life.

I find about half the people I have tested can truly tell the difference between a D and an H colored diamonds. Most people can start to notice the color at I and lower.

Some people prefer warmer colors (J-L) or prefer to save money or get a bigger diamond or a better cut. It is easier to see the color of a diamond in a white setting (platinum or white gold).

Color has a bigger effect on pricing as the clarity grades get higher.

 

[sjz]

Date: 8/18/2005 11:12:44 AM
Author: Jennifer5973

This is from the Pricescope Diamond Book -> Education -> The Quick Basics

Some people prefer warmer colors (J-L) or prefer to save money or get a bigger diamond or a better cut. It is easier to see the color of a diamond in a white setting (platinum or white gold).

Color has a bigger effect on pricing as the clarity grades get higher.

The statement about it being easier to see color in a diamond in white metal is one I have definetly found to be true. I wore my J diamond for over 10 years in a yellow gold setting and always thought that it looked much whiter than how I *thought* a J was supposed to look. After I had it reset into a white gold setting with platinum prongs, the diamond looks much warmer. I feel like I can see the body color more readily through the pavillion now, too. That being said, it doesn''t bother me, quite the opposite...I now think that the diamond looks much prettier in it''s new white setting. The warmth of the J is showcased better in the white. It still looks as firery as ever, just very different than it did in the yellow gold. Some people thought I was a bit of a nutter for wanting TWO solitaires of basically the same size with similar settings, but they look so totally different. One is a warmer, firey diamond in white gold which reminds me of a burning flame when I look at it, while the other is like an icy white disco ball set in gleaming gold. Both are beautiful and give me a lot of pleasure to wear, but are totally different in the look.

 

[Dancing Fire]

yes, i can see the difference between my wife''s I color and H color ring,both rb''s in 14k WG.it''s easier under certain light conditions and of course it''s easier from the side then the top.

 

[carrot]

"And many of the opinons expressed on PS ARE misleading to the "masses". I''m not the only one who thinks so, either. Other people have made their feelings known on the subject and agree with me. "

"I''ve read other posts where people will make comments to the effect "my J looks exactly like my friends G, I can''t see any color difference at all" or "my ideal cut H looks like a D because the better cut masks the color". Those are just fictitious examples, but you get the point. I''ve read similar comments in various posts during my time on PS. Not that I say these people are not saying what they believe to be true, but sometimes I wonder if it''s not more of a bit of wishful thinking that actual fact."

These comments by sjz have been among the most significant on this entire thread and I couldn’t agree more!

EVERY photo posted on this thread (as well as any other PS thread) that purports to show differences between color grades of diamonds is greatly misleading. They lead people into thinking that they are comparing color grades when all they are really comparing is different images on a computer monitor. They are comparing pictures NOT diamonds! Only those who understand white balance, color temperature of source light, color calibration of computer monitors and the influence of room light (or absence of it) in the room where a monitor is viewed will appreciate how utterly pointless this exercise is. My advice to newbies who are reading this thread to learn about the significance of diamond color grades is to ignore any photos that suggest that they demonstrate color grades or the differences between color grades.

Differences between color grades in diamonds are VERY significant. Whether a particular person can see or appreciate the difference is irrelevant to that reality. Red is very different than green. The fact that some people are red/green colorblind in no way reduces the significance between red and green.

This becomes an important issue when colorblind people make statements like, “I don’t find the difference between red and green to be significant” and those comments influence the decisions of people who have not yet learned about color or have not personally observed the difference between red and green. Statements like that are irresponsible and can influence others to make a decision they will later regret.

Each step up in color grade makes increases the quality and value of a diamond. A D color diamond is better than and E color diamond. A G color diamond is better than an H color diamond. An individual claiming to like an H better than a G or an E better than a D does not change that reality. The higher the color grade of a diamond, the more desirable it is. This is the reason that colorless stones command the price that they do.

It is noteworthy that many posters make comments along the lines of, “My H color diamond looks very white.” But I have not yet read a post that said, “My D color diamond has a nice yellow/brown tinge to it.” It is well recognized, even by those who try to avoid admitting it, that “whiteness” or more accurately, lack of color, is what is desirable and sought after in a diamond. People who have a D color diamond don’t need to make explanations. Their diamond speaks for itself.

Further, the most transparent diamond color is D. Every step down the color scale decreases the transparency of the diamond. This is a basic law of physics and has nothing to do with personal opinion. The tinted glass in sunglasses reduces the amount of light passing through them. Tinted glass in cars reduces the light passing through it. And the yellow/brown tinge in a diamond reduces the light passing through it. The magnitude is different, but the effect is the same.

Body color in a diamond will also change the color of the light passing through it just like yellow sunglasses will change the colors seen through them. All other things being equal, a D color diamond will return more light and will have greater and more balanced fire (colored light) than any other color grade. And each step down in color grade will have a commensurate reduction in light return and alteration or shift in the characteristics of the fire.

Body color is body color. It does not go away over time. It does not disappear when you turn a diamond face up. Cut quality does not erase it. If anything, lower color grade will detract from the results of cut quality for reasons already addressed.

To those who are reading this thread to learn about diamond color grades, may I say that you will not learn very much about color grades by reading about them and will be misled if you rely on or are influenced by photos of diamonds. It is absolutely essential that you personally examine loose diamonds of various color grades well before you make any buying decisions. That is the only way that you will know how significant color is to you and will reduce the possibility of regret or dissatisfaction after your purchase.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 8/18/2005 12:31:02 PM
Author: carrot

Each step up in color grade makes increases the quality and value of a diamond. A D color diamond is better than and E color diamond. A G color diamond is better than an H color diamond. An individual claiming to like an H better than a G or an E better than a D does not change that reality. The higher the color grade of a diamond, the more desirable it is. This is the reason that colorless stones command the price that they do.

this may sound stupid but,how do we really know a D color is more rare than I-K color? just b/c a D is more expensive? what if you found out that I,J,K color is more rare than a D,will you still pay more for a D color?


Body color in a diamond will also change the color of the light passing through it just like yellow sunglasses will change the colors seen through them. All other things being equal, a D color diamond will return more light and will have greater and more balanced fire (colored light) than any other color grade. And each step down in color grade will have a commensurate reduction in light return and alteration or shift in the characteristics of the fire.
so....I,J,k stones will never sparkle like a D?

 

[sjz]

Date: 8/18/2005 1:16:18 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 8/18/2005 12:31:02 PM
Author: carrot

Each step up in color grade makes increases the quality and value of a diamond. A D color diamond is better than and E color diamond. A G color diamond is better than an H color diamond. An individual claiming to like an H better than a G or an E better than a D does not change that reality. The higher the color grade of a diamond, the more desirable it is. This is the reason that colorless stones command the price that they do.

this may sound stupid but,how do we really know a D color is more rare than I-K color? just b/c a D is more expensive? what if you found out that I,J,K color is more rare than a D,will you still pay more for a D color?

The reason colorless diamonds are more rare, thus more valuable, is for the same reason that blue, red, pink, and other colors of diamonds are more rare and valuable...there''s fewer of them naturally occuring. The biggest majority of natural diamonds have some level of brown or yellow color to them. Even if it''s barely visible, as in some of the near colorless grades of diamonds. It''s as simple as the law of supply and demand...fewer colorless diamonds makes them more valuable.

A saturated colored ruby, like a burmese ruby, is more valuable than the lighter pink rubies for the same reason.

 

[moremoremore]

I still haven't mastered this quoting thing...

SJZ writes: And many of the opinons expressed on PS ARE misleading to the "masses". I'm not the only one who thinks so, either. Other people have made their feelings known on the subject and agree with me. " "I've read other posts where people will make comments to the effect "my J looks exactly like my friends G, I can't see any color difference at all" or "my ideal cut H looks like a D because the better cut masks the color". Those are just fictitious examples, but you get the point. I've read similar comments in various posts during my time on PS. Not that I say these people are not saying what they believe to be true, but sometimes I wonder if it's not more of a bit of wishful thinking that actual fact."


I wonder the same thing SJZ and personally agree to a certain extent. Cut does mask color in certain lights, but I don't understand "this J faces up like a G"....Because following that logic, the G faces up like a D, no? And then what the heck does the D face up as? LOL...

However, if someone says that to *them* they face up the same, I have no reason not to believe them b/c in their eyes, I guess it does. I can't judge why they make that statement...

 

[Jennifer5973]

The biggest fallacy is judging color of diamonds by jpegs posted on the internet and viewed on a computer screen.

 

[sjz]

Date: 8/18/2005 1:41:27 PM
Author: moremoremore

I still haven''t mastered this quoting thing...

SJZ writes: And many of the opinons expressed on PS ARE misleading to the ''masses''. I''m not the only one who thinks so, either. Other people have made their feelings known on the subject and agree with me. '' ''I''ve read other posts where people will make comments to the effect ''my J looks exactly like my friends G, I can''t see any color difference at all'' or ''my ideal cut H looks like a D because the better cut masks the color''. Those are just fictitious examples, but you get the point. I''ve read similar comments in various posts during my time on PS. Not that I say these people are not saying what they believe to be true, but sometimes I wonder if it''s not more of a bit of wishful thinking that actual fact.''


I wonder the same thing SJZ and personally agree to a certain extent. Cut does mask color in certain lights, but I don''t understand ''this J faces up like a G''....Because following that logic, the G faces up like a D, no? And then what the heck does the D face up as? LOL...

However, if someone says that to *them* they face up the same, I have no reason not to believe them b/c in their eyes, I guess it does. I can''t judge why they make that statement...

I have no doubt that many people who make claims truly believe that their diamond looks a certain way. But it does muddy the waters when so many people are depending on the opnions of others. What looks white to me may look totally yellow to you and visa versa. For people who truly do suspect that they are color sensitive, and have concerns about how a particular color grade will look in a diamond, they should get off the computer and go out and look as some real diamonds. I do. I ask my friends if I can look at their diamonds (up close, on my own hand with a loupe even), I cruise the jewelry stores, I''ve taken every opportunity to talk to peope who are experts (by expert I mean people who''ve been educated to grade stones and have seen thousands of different diamonds in person).

As far as "facing up" white, it''s my personal opinion that most all diamonds in the colorless and near colorless range (D-J) are pretty much going to face up white when set in an item of jewelry. And that is the way most people are going to observe your jewelry. Not at the funny and weird angles you as the wearer will be viewing it, not through a loupe (unless you happen to hang out with me

), and most definetly not against a set of graders master stones. Still, though...I have my doubts that a well graded stone is going to look the same color as a stone of a grade more than a shade or so either way. So while a J might look close in color to an I or a K, it''s doubtful to me that it''s going to look like an F or a G. And while I know that''s only my opinon, it''s based on common sense I think.

 

[sjz]

Date: 8/18/2005 1:53:46 PM
Author: Jennifer5973
The biggest fallacy is judging color of diamonds by jpegs posted on the internet and viewed on a computer screen.

No doubt! I see pictures all the time on PS of someone''s ring in multiple pictures...the same diamond in the same setting on the same hand looks totally different in every picture.

 

[Demelza]

Date: 8/18/2005 12:31:02 PM
Author: carrot

Each step up in color grade makes increases the quality and value of a diamond. A D color diamond is better than and E color diamond. A G color diamond is better than an H color diamond. An individual claiming to like an H better than a G or an E better than a D does not change that reality. The higher the color grade of a diamond, the more desirable it is. This is the reason that colorless stones command the price that they do.

Further, the most transparent diamond color is D. Every step down the color scale decreases the transparency of the diamond. This is a basic law of physics and has nothing to do with personal opinion. The tinted glass in sunglasses reduces the amount of light passing through them. Tinted glass in cars reduces the light passing through it. And the yellow/brown tinge in a diamond reduces the light passing through it. The magnitude is different, but the effect is the same.


Body color in a diamond will also change the color of the light passing through it just like yellow sunglasses will change the colors seen through them. All other things being equal, a D color diamond will return more light and will have greater and more balanced fire (colored light) than any other color grade. And each step down in color grade will have a commensurate reduction in light return and alteration or shift in the characteristics of the fire.

Body color is body color. It does not go away over time. It does not disappear when you turn a diamond face up. Cut quality does not erase it. If anything, lower color grade will detract from the results of cut quality for reasons already addressed.

To those who are reading this thread to learn about diamond color grades, may I say that you will not learn very much about color grades by reading about them and will be misled if you rely on or are influenced by photos of diamonds. It is absolutely essential that you personally examine loose diamonds of various color grades well before you make any buying decisions. That is the only way that you will know how significant color is to you and will reduce the possibility of regret or dissatisfaction after your purchase.

Based on this logic, then, fancy colored diamonds necessarily have poor light return?? Fancy colored stones increase in value as their body color increases and becomes more intense. Light return is not a function of a diamond's color -- it is a function of cut, and to some extent a function of clarity assuming the diamond is so heavily included that it affects beauty and durability. Color, as I understand it, does not have an affect on brilliancy. Yes, it does impact the character of the light as it passes through the stone, but I do not believe that this has any real impact on the way the diamond throws back light. I think strong blue flourescence has much more impact on the transparency of a diamond than whether it is a D or an H. The reason colorless diamonds are more expensive is because they are more rare. A fancy intense blue diamond is much more valuable than an identical D color stone simply because blue is that much more rare than white.

 

[Maxine]

I use 3 different computers and the color looks totally different on each one!!!!!! I would never judge the color of a diamond from a computer image.....I agree, that when pics are posted, even the same ring looks different from picture to picture, too!!!

 

[carrot]

"Based on this logic, then, fancy colored diamonds necessarily have poor light return?? That doesn''t make any sense. Fancy colors increase in value as their body color increases and becomes more intense. Light return is not a function of a diamond''s color -- it is a function of cut, and to some extent a function of clarity assuming the diamond is so heavily included that it affects beauty and durability. The reason colorless diamonds are more expensive is because they are more rare. A fancy intense blue diamond is much more valuable than an identical D color stone simply because blue is that much more rare than white. "


This is based on the laws of physics, not someone''s "logic."

A colored medium (in this case a diamond) attenuates light. It''s as simple as that. Only a fraction of the light that goes in comes back out because the body color of the stone absorbes some of the light.

The value of fancy color diamonds is an entirely separate subject and has nothing to do with these issues.

D color diamonds are higher priced not just because they are rare, but because people will pay the going price in order to own them. Rarity without demand does NOT produce value!

 

[Demelza]

"D color diamonds are higher priced not just because they are rare, but because people will pay the going price in order to own them. Rarity without demand does NOT produce value!"

Well, of course rarity does not in and of itself make something valuable. No commodity is valuable unless we collectively agree it is (this includes money). But since we (or enough of us) all agree that diamonds are valuable and since human beings seem to value rarity as a general idea, then stones that are more rare command a higher premium. The real quetion is: if D color diamonds were plentiful, would they still command the same premium? Would we all still agree that colorless is better, more valuable, more impressive? Talk about commodity fetishism!

I'm the first to admit that I'm not well-versed in the laws of physics; but my understanding has alwayas been that while it is technically true that the presence of nitrogen or some other impurity impacts the character of light as it passes through the stone, it does not in any appreciable way impact brilliance or light return. In all the discussions about light return on this forum, there hasn't been much if any discussion about the impact of color on light return. Now, that doesn't mean there shouldn't be one, but I would be interested to hear what the experts have to say about this issue.

 

[Demelza]

Not to beat the same dead horse (poor thing), but I''ve done a bit of research re: diamond color and light return. I asked the always generous Rich Sherwood about this and he said that as far as fire is concerned there is no difference between colorless stones and stones that have color. There is also no difference in the intensity of brililance. The only differrence is in the hue of the light returned. The whiter the diamond the whiter the light that is returned. The more yellow the diamond, the more yellow light is returned. Both are equally intense and equally brilliant. He also added that the nitrogen atoms that cause diamonds to be yellow are sub-molecular and therefore are not visible impurities which would have any impact on how light is returned. I hope Rich will correct me if I got any of that wrong, but that''s a pretty close paraphrase.

Anyway, thought that was useful info so that those of us with near colorless stones don''t start worrying that light return will be affected.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 8/18/2005 12:31:02 PM
Author: carrot

Further, the most transparent diamond color is D. Every step down the color scale decreases the transparency of the diamond. This is a basic law of physics and has nothing to do with personal opinion. The tinted glass in sunglasses reduces the amount of light passing through them. Tinted glass in cars reduces the light passing through it. And the yellow/brown tinge in a diamond reduces the light passing through it. The magnitude is different, but the effect is the same.

Body color in a diamond will also change the color of the light passing through it just like yellow sunglasses will change the colors seen through them. All other things being equal, a D color diamond will return more light and will have greater and more balanced fire (colored light) than any other color grade. And each step down in color grade will have a commensurate reduction in light return and alteration or shift in the characteristics of the fire.

Carrot, I understand where you're coming from with this argument, but I would disagree with your conclusions.

If I understand you correctly, you're maintaining that because there is an absorption of some of the spectral hues on a yellow or brown tint diamond, that the resulting color transmitted is less "intense" than full spectrum white light. In addition you seem to be maintaining that somehow the "transparency" of a diamond crystal is reduced because of color absorption.

But the fact that some of the spectral hues are eliminated by absorption doesn't make the remaining hues transmitted any less "intense". Neither does color absorption affect crystal transparency. The remaining hues come through just as "intense", as the crystal is just as transparent and the resultant light with color is coming through just as intensely as light without color would.

The illustration of sunglasses versus diamond isn't equivalent, because in one case you've got a significant overlay of substance, the coating, which decreases transparency to the eye, while in the other case you've got a sub-molecular color absorption which doesn't reduce transparency or intensity of light perceived by the human eye.

This can be practically demonstrated by comparing the BrillianceScope results of the brilliance and fire of a super ideal "M" color diamond versus a super ideal "D" color. Both, if cut to maximum performance, will exhibit top scoring "VH's" across the board.

The level of absorption created by the nitrogen atoms is enough to change the color of a diamond to the naked eye, but not enough to diminish the perceived transparency of the crystal, nor the intensity of light returned or intensity of fire exhibited.

 

[sapphic]

J''s are always the basis of comparison, but what about I''s? I''ve heard u can tell the di ff when u move two grades. I''m somewhat color sensitive, but where do you think the critical mass will notice color in a diamond? It seems like the majority of opinion agrees that H is the color where you won''t see color and are pretty safe. I''m trying to see how safe an I color stone holds up. Since it is right next to an H in color, I''m thinking it''s somewhat safe...Of course, I''m not talking about the wearer, but rather the majority of people that may look at your diamond, the general public with a weak knowledge of diamonds.

 

[TimeTraveller]

What a fiesty thread.

I respect and highly value posts made by both aljdewey and sjz. aljdewey, you may find it a surprise when I say that generally, I very much look forward to your posts in any thread because I usually find you''re the voice of reason with lots of objectivity. So before reading any further, I want to re-iterate how much I generally value your posts and I hold your opinions in high regard.

However, with this specific topic, I side completely with Mr Carrot and sjz. With due respect aljdewey, it really does not matter that you and Mara are color-insensitive. Color may be subjective when you''re looking at it, but color or the lack of color as it exists in nature is objective--not subjective. The very fact that you and Mara are color in-sensitive actually should make general readers more cautious when reading your posts on the subject of color. You may not perceive the color difference, but others might very well.

Personally, I really dislike reading posts from any poster who claim their J looks like a G or their G looks like an F. It may look that way to them, but to others it certainly will not and it''s indeed quite misleading for them to post such remarks.

It''s like me saying, oh my .75 caret diamond really looks like a 1.5 caret diamond. Who can tell? If you don''t compare diamonds side by side, could you tell a 3/4 caret vs a 1 caret? I don''t think most guys could tell a 3/4 caret diamond from a 1 caret diamond, unless you put the diamonds right next to each other. But I wouldn''t go around claiming my 3/4 caret diamond looks just like a 1 1/4 caret ring. Just because I may see it that way doesn''t mean I''m going to suggest to others that this is the case.

And yes, as sjz have stated, I''ve read way too many posts where the author claims their J or I looks just like a G or higher color with NO disclaimer whatsoever. And when reading those posts, my first reaction is that they''re just rationalizing and trying to justify their purchase of a lower color grade diamond. I''d rather they just said "This is a J color diamond and I like J colored diamonds because I like the yellowish tint to it." Or something like "This is a J colored diamond and I purchased it specifically because I wanted to save on color but spend it on size."

That would be more genuine and easier to believe. Everyone has their likes and dislikes and I can honestly believe that some people may like J color diamonds. But what I can''t believe is that a J colored diamond looks like a G colored diamond. If that truly were the case--objectively--then they should send their diamond back to GIA/AGSL and have it regraded so they get a better resell value for their diamond.

 

[mrssalvo]

Date: 8/19/2005 6:42:58 AM
Author: TimeTraveller


Personally, I really dislike reading posts from any poster who claim their J looks like a G or their G looks like an F. It may look that way to them, but to others it certainly will not and it's indeed quite misleading for them to post such remarks.


That would be more genuine and easier to believe. Everyone has their likes and dislikes and I can honestly believe that some people may like J color diamonds. But what I can't believe is that a J colored diamond looks like a G colored diamond. If that truly were the case--objectively--then they should send their diamond back to GIA/AGSL and have it regraded so they get a better resell value for their diamond.

My .02...diamond color is graded "face down." that's where the color is assigned, not face up. once a ring is set it is MUCH harder to see color in a well cut stone. So, someones I or J placed next to a G or H can both look the same. If the two were being graded face up they very well could score the same color. The lower color diamond owners here are trying to educate the masses who think a "j" is always yellow. Their point is, that in a well cut stone, a J won't look yellow when it's face up. Now, from the side view, Mara and others have said they can see warmth. no misleading there, but also no surprise b/c this is the area the diamond recieved it color grade from , not the top. Well cut diamonds can also hide inclusions making them eye-clean. Am i misleading the masses saying my SI2 is eye-clean when it is really included. No, because the inclusions are not visable once the stone is set. Same goes for color of some stones.

and we all agree it's best to go SEE them for yourself and decide. just make sure you are comparing apples to apples. Mall store crappy cut J's are not apples

 

[lmurden]

My new wedding set has H-I diamonds in it and there is no way that I can tell which is a H or I. Also when I look at my ring it is just white sparkles everywhere! No yellow! Color is subjective! I am not color sensitive, but when it comes to clarity that''s a whole different subject for me!

 

[mrssalvo]

Date: 8/19/2005 6:42:58 AM
Author: TimeTraveller


I'd rather they just said 'This is a J color diamond and I like J colored diamonds because I like the yellowish tint to it.' Or something like 'This is a J colored diamond and I purchased it specifically because I wanted to save on color but spend it on size.'

This is where I disagree and i think the masses are misinformed. A well cut J may not have a yellowish tint to it when looking at it face up...

i love this pic from preciousjewels...i know, computer moniters looking different, can't really see color on the screen etc...but this pic is worth sharing. one of here stones is an E and one's a J and they are on the same finger. I surely don't see any yellow

ETA- both are well cut diamonds

 

[Jennifer5973]

I viewed a 1.5 ct J SuperbCert and a 1.5 ct G SuperbCert side by side last year, and I could tell the difference very slightly from the top. From the side, it hit me like a ton of bricks.

The poor horse has fallen through to China by now, but at the end of the day, a D is a D is a D, and a J is a J is a J (and a G is a G is a G, so on and so forth). What you like and what color/clarity combo you're willing to balance for size is your own decision. But to make that decision, view well-cut stones in a variety of color grades in person--not on a computer--so you know what you like.

 

[lmurden]

Date: 8/19/2005 9:10:55 AM
Author: mrssalvo

Date: 8/19/2005 6:42:58 AM
Author: TimeTraveller


I''d rather they just said ''This is a J color diamond and I like J colored diamonds because I like the yellowish tint to it.'' Or something like ''This is a J colored diamond and I purchased it specifically because I wanted to save on color but spend it on size.''

This is where I disagree and i think the masses are misinformed. A well cut J may not have a yellowish tint to it when looking at it face up...

i love this pic from preciousjewels...i know, computer moniters looking different, can''t really see color on the screen etc...but this pic is worth sharing. one of here stones is an E and one''s a J and they are on the same finger. I surely don''t see any yellow

ETA- both are well cut diamonds

The only difference that I see

is the size!

 

[sjz]

I think that talking about seeing "yellow" in diamonds is also somewhat misleading. I have J and an F, and used to have an H. No yellow in any of them. All I see is white. Even side by side on the same finger. But they do not look the same. Maybe that's where some of the confusion comes from. People who own an H, I, or J diamond look at it and say to themselves "gee, I don't see any yellow in my diamond" and draw their own conclusions. And sometimes those conclusions are going to be that the H, I, or J is going to look similar in appearance to a colorless diamond, or at the very least a G. And that won't be true.

A good example would be going to a paint store and asking for white paint chips. They will hand you a bunch of little samples of white paint, that seen individually one at a time will all look pretty much "white". But when you line them all up side by side, it's amazing how different all the whites look from each other. And depending on what other colors you place next to those different white paints, or the particular lighting you view them in, or how much of a space you cover in the white paint, it can change the way they look all the more.

Even face up, different grades of diamonds are likely going to look different shades of white. I don't think you really start picking up truly perceptible shades of actual color until you get much further up the alphabet than J. But the different shades of white are not all going to look the same. Some will look more icy or more intensely white, others will look warmer and more mellow. The sparkle and fire will come into play when you start looking at the cut of the diamond.

 

[sjz]

Date: 8/19/2005 5:06:27 AM
Author: sapphic
J''s are always the basis of comparison, but what about I''s? I''ve heard u can tell the di ff when u move two grades. I''m somewhat color sensitive, but where do you think the critical mass will notice color in a diamond? It seems like the majority of opinion agrees that H is the color where you won''t see color and are pretty safe. I''m trying to see how safe an I color stone holds up. Since it is right next to an H in color, I''m thinking it''s somewhat safe...Of course, I''m not talking about the wearer, but rather the majority of people that may look at your diamond, the general public with a weak knowledge of diamonds.

From everything I''ve read about grading diamond color, the closer to colorless you get (D,E,F) the tighter the parameters are and the closer the different grades are in appearance. As you move up the color scale into the near colorless range (G-J) the parameters begin to widen and there is more room for subjectivity. G and J seem to be two of the more controversial grades and I think it''s because they are the two which are at opposite ends of the near colorless range. I''m sure that most G''s face up are essentially colorless to an untrained eye, and probably even to a lot of trained eyes who don''t have a set of master stones to compare them to. Truly "color sensitive" people can probably see some warmth in a G readily, especially if the stone is unset or they are looking through the pavillion. When you get to the J level, it''s probably a little bit more difficult, since the parameters for grading a J are a little wider than they would be with a G. I''ve heard a few people say that they had an appraiser tell them that their J could have easily been graded an I, and I''ve heard people also say that their J could have been graded a K. One thing I don''t think I''ve ever heard, though, even in the non-color sensitive people, is "my J looks icy white".

 

[Demelza]

Date: 8/19/2005 12:44:21 AM
Author: Richard Sherwood

Date: 8/18/2005 12:31:02 PM

Author: carrot


Further, the most transparent diamond color is D. Every step down the color scale decreases the transparency of the diamond. This is a basic law of physics and has nothing to do with personal opinion. The tinted glass in sunglasses reduces the amount of light passing through them. Tinted glass in cars reduces the light passing through it. And the yellow/brown tinge in a diamond reduces the light passing through it. The magnitude is different, but the effect is the same.


Body color in a diamond will also change the color of the light passing through it just like yellow sunglasses will change the colors seen through them. All other things being equal, a D color diamond will return more light and will have greater and more balanced fire (colored light) than any other color grade. And each step down in color grade will have a commensurate reduction in light return and alteration or shift in the characteristics of the fire.

Carrot, I understand where you''re coming from with this argument, but I would disagree with your conclusions.


If I understand you correctly, you''re maintaining that because there is an absorption of some of the spectral hues on a yellow or brown tint diamond, that the resulting color transmitted is less ''intense'' than full spectrum white light. In addition you seem to be maintaining that somehow the ''transparency'' of a diamond crystal is reduced because of color absorption.


But the fact that some of the spectral hues are eliminated by absorption doesn''t make the remaining hues transmitted any less ''intense''. Neither does color absorption affect crystal transparency. The remaining hues come through just as ''intense'', as the crystal is just as transparent and the resultant light with color is coming through just as intensely as light without color would.


The illustration of sunglasses versus diamond isn''t equivalent, because in one case you''ve got a significant overlay of substance, the coating, which decreases transparency to the eye, while in the other case you''ve got a sub-molecular color absorption which doesn''t reduce transparency or intensity of light perceived by the human eye.


This can be practically demonstrated by comparing the BrillianceScope results of the brilliance and fire of a super ideal ''M'' color diamond versus a super ideal ''D'' color. Both, if cut to maximum performance, will exhibit top scoring ''VH''s'' across the board.


The level of absorption created by the nitrogen atoms is enough to change the color of a diamond to the naked eye, but not enough to diminish the perceived transparency of the crystal, nor the intensity of light returned or intensity of fire exhibited.

Thanks for the clarification, Rich. That was very helpful.

 

[carrot]

"Thanks for the clarification, Rich. That was very helpful."

Well, you got the response you were looking for. Unfortunately (with all due respect to Mr. Sherwood) it is not true because physically, it cannot be true.

When light passes through any medium, it is attenuated to a degree depending upon the transparency (clarity to light) of that medium. The very fact that a medium shows a color makes it NECESSARY that the light passing through that medium was reduced. It is that very reductiion (absorption) of light that produces the observable body color. This applies not only to brilliance, but fire because both are aspects of returned light. The fire is a result of the incident light being broken into its spectral components as the light passes into and out of the diamond.

The velocity of the light is less inside of a diamond than it is in the air. So as the light passes through the boundary between the air and the diamond, its velocity changes. Every spectral hue changes direction (bends) when its velocity changes. In the visible spectrum, red bends the most and blue the least with the various other colors in between beding at various proportions between them. It is this difference in bending characteristics that allow the various components of white light to be seen as in a rainbow or in the pattern produced by a prism. This is also the reason sunsets have a reddish hue. As the sun sets below the horizon, the red end of the spectrum bends the most and allow us to see the sun when it has already actually passed below the horizon. In this case, the velocity of light changes (and produces the bending) as sunlight enters the atmosphere from the vacuum of space.

When a diamond is not totally colorless, some of the light is absorbed and the light return is less than it would be in a totally colorles stone. The more color it has, the greater the percentage of the light is attenuated. This attenuation of light also affect the fire, not only in qualtity, but in color shift. For example, a diamond with a yellow body color will filter out various aspects of the blue end of the visible spectrum. This principle is used to advantage in the design of higher end sunglasses (which (other than the mirrored variety) use colored glass, not coatings to reduct light transmittance) by selectively filtering out certain frequencies of light. This filtering produces the apparent color of the lens.

The very fact that certain frequencies are filtered out means that less light is leaving the diamond than entered it and this absorption is another factor contributing to light loss that (by definition) reduces the overall light return. Brilliancescope results are not dispositive because there are other variables that distinguish between two diamonds, all of which influence light return.

All of that said, I invite any objective diamond buyer to compare a (zero fluorescence) well cut D color diamond to a well cut G color diamond in direct sunlight. If you can''t see the difference, buy the cheaper stone!

This thread was started with the coined descriptor "color sensitive." I don''t think I have heard that phrase used outside of this forum and find myself wondering if it may have been coined by someone who owns low color grade diamond and possibly even to hint that "sensitivity" is some sort of unfortunate malady such as susceptibility to poison ivy. Perhaps a new thread seeking color blind contributors would provide some measure of balance!

Personally, I find the most beautiful diamonds to be eye clean, D color stones, period. I will openly admit up front that for any budget, this will result in a smaller stone that with almost any other parameters. I find no purpose in making a statement along the lines of "My D color, one ct. diamond faces up as large as any 1.8 ct. J color stone." That is as preposterous as certain other comments I''ve read on this forum. Remarks along those lines are simply not true and to make such a statement might lead some person to believe that they are true. And if they act on that belief, they could suffer loss or regret.

Again I say to prospective diamond buyers, reject the notion that color grade is insignificant or a minor consideration in the selection of a diamond. Further, do not attempt to reach ANY conclusions about color by looking at photos of diamonds. Go out and look at real diamonds of various color grades yourself and make up your own mind. You might discover that you too are allergic to low color grade diamonds!