Poll: Gemesis vs Natural

[fire&ice]

Where's Lawgem when you need him? He wrote a brief disertation on this very subject when the "Wired" article was published on PS. He shot down many of the "claims" in the article.

 

[Toska]

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On 12/20/2003 5:49:09 PM fire&ice wrote:

Where's Lawgem when you need him? He wrote a brief disertation on this very subject when the 'Wired' article was published on PS. He shot down many of the 'claims' in the article. ----------------

Shot them down or shot himself in the foot?
The article is correct, white man made diamonds are on sale mid 2004.

 

[derekinla]

The reason I would choose a synthetic diamond over a natural one is the same reason why I would choose an eye clean SI1 over a VVS1. Why pay for something you can't see? Both synthetic diamonds and the natural diamonds are made of carbon molecules covalently bonded in a tetrahedral structure and possess identical physical properties (same Isee2 and BScope scores). I could care less if the diamond came from some mine in Africa, Russia, Canada or a lab in Boston, MA. But hey, that's just me. On the other hand, I can completely understand why someone would put a particular worth in knowing that their diamond came from mother nature and was created over the period of millions of years deep below the earth's surface. Diamonds are often an emotional purchase with great symbolic and personal significance. That's why there are peeps who would only consider buying D IF stones.... I think it comes down to one question.... what is "natural" worth to you? It's much like prioritizing the 4C's: Cut, Color, Carat, Clarity. Assuming synthetics become widely available, we just have to add an "O" to the equation ("O" for origin).

 

[fire&ice]

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On 12/21/2003 1:23:48 AM Toska wrote:

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On 12/20/2003 5:49:09 PM fire&ice wrote:

Where's Lawgem when you need him? He wrote a brief disertation on this very subject when the 'Wired' article was published on PS. He shot down many of the 'claims' in the article. ----------------

Shot them down or shot himself in the foot?
The article is correct, white man made diamonds are on sale mid 2004.----------------

The claims did not relate to their existence. That's yesterday's news. The "claims" made related to the fact of their properties - or lack thereof.

 

[Toska]

You shall find the info you are looking for here

DeBeers Gem Defensive Programme

 

[Mara]

Logged my sweetie's vote which was the 2c synthetic.




He said something along the lines of..if it looks and walks and talks like a duck then it must be a duck.

 

[tonysgeko]

Here's a question for you all, would you consider one if a Pricescope vendor carried them providing all the tests etc,?

 

[Richard Sherwood]

My lab is in the same town as Gemesis (Sarasota), I know the director (Bruce Davidson), have inspected many of their stones and appraised several.

The majority are usually fairly easily detected by a gemologist trained in what to look for. The hype about not being able to tell the difference is incorrect. The ones that are more difficult to detect with traditional gemological equipment are easily detected with advanced equipment such as the SAS-2000 spectrophotometer.

Here's the URL address on a previous thread discussing just that, along with photos and other info:

https://www.pricescope.com/forum/steam-room/photos-lab-created-fancy-intense-t8320.html

 

[strmrdr]

Richard,
Having seen these lab diamonds is there anything about them that would make you turn people away from them?
Discounting origin and resale value.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

No, they're gorgeous. Check out the photos. I think they will find a niche in the market, if properly handled with complete disclosure.

At this time they are only available in fancy colors, not colorless. Seems like sooner or later they'll figure out how to make them colorless.

 

[Colored Gemstone Nut]

Regina voted natural

 

[elmo]

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On 12/21/2003 4:46:57 PM strmrdr wrote:


Having seen these lab diamonds is there anything about them that would make you turn people away from them?

Discounting origin and resale value.

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I've seen a few of these, and although it's just a personal opinion, I think the intense to vivid color is in some ways too much of a good thing. Sort of like drinking balsamic vinegar straight, the $40/oz good stuff even

. The price isn't all that different compared with natural, fancy (not vivid) yellow. That's what my choice would be.

 

[Toska]

It looks like a trend is finally emerging...

 

[mike04456]

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On 12/20/2003 5:49:09 PM fire&ice wrote:





Where's Lawgem when you need him? He wrote a brief disertation on this very subject when the 'Wired' article was published on PS. He shot down many of the 'claims' in the article.
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Lawgem has been busy with his new offspring. Consequently, I'm too sleep-deprived to repeat everything I said before. I'll stick the highlights:

-The $5/ct figure is totally bogus, and this is per the folks at Apollo.

-Relatively simple methods exist to identify both Gemesis and Apollo stones, and more are being developed as we speak. Both companies are working very hard to make sure their products are sold with proper identification and disclosure.

-Neither company is any threat to the diamond market. At most, their production will total no more than a few hundred thousand carats per year, and they won't hit that figure for years even if everything goes right. This is a drop in the bucket compared to the 130 million carats of natural diamonds being mined this year.

One can gauge the real impact of these synthetic diamond by looking at the reaction of the wholesale market. If there were any real weight to all this hype, there would be total panic among diamond merchants, most of whom these days are carrying millions of dollars in heavily leveraged goods. In fact, there is no such panic. The majority of them are focusing on getting enough rough to polish after the uproar De Beers has created with its Supplier of Choice program; these synthetics are barely on the radar screen.

Personally, I cannot imagine ever paying $7,000 for a synthetic stone, and I seriously doubt many consumers would either. Any retail jeweler will tell you that there is just no traction at all in the synthetic market above $500 or so. For 99% of the buying public, who don't understand all these nuances, synthetic = fake, and nobody pays thousands of dollars for fakes.

 

[canadiangrrl]

LG's explanation makes perfect sense. I cannot fathom paying 7k for a synthetic. Fake is fake.

 

[strmrdr]

Lawgem,
This poll shows that some people would pay 7k for a synthetic as far as production goes if there is a market it will ramp up.
If you look there are also polls here what compare different price points and even a higher percentage went for the lab diamonds.
With the right marketing they could take off big time.
The mined diamond industry is vulnerable from several standpoints:
Politics, environmental concerns, perceived and real exploitation, De Beers, high prices, attitude towards consumers, are just a few of them.

Why no panic? Because right now its a niche player at best in the fancy color market when/if production ramps up on the d-i grade I predict there will be panic in the wholesale market. Especially if they can come in at a %50 or better discount.
Plus the current players seem to be willing to kiss up to the rest of the industry instead of fighting it. That could change tomorrow.
Right now they are all hype and little to no product when that changes the market will react.

 

[canadiangrrl]

The people who respond to polls on this forum are but a tiny, infinitesimal percentage of diamond consumers. Poll responses are hardly representative of what would play in Kansas.

The average Pricescope member is a fairly sophisticated diamond buyer whose wants and desires differ markedly from the average North American diamond consumer. We all tout superideals around here - but they're only a minute fraction of overall diamond sales.

Marketing a 7k synthetic to the masses would be a tough sell indeed.

 

[fire&ice]

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Lawgem has been busy with his new offspring. Consequently, I'm too sleep-deprived to repeat everything I said before. I'll stick the highlights:

---------------[/quote]


I figured that's why you were AWOL. Hope all went well & is going well!

 

[Mara]

I highly agree CG. We are a tiny speck of dust on the map of diamond purchases. So 45 people would by a 2c synthetic for $7k. Yay! They aren't going to make millions from us here on Pscope.

To the general masses who don't understand much but price and carat weight...they will have to drop that price. If I had $7k little hot dollars in my hand...I'd put it on natural every time.

Even if my better half defected over to fakeville!!

 

[strmrdr]

I think its just the opposite that the people here would be harder to sell them too.

Just for the fun of it and to kill time I talked to a couple of our customers about it and 75% said 2ct.
Then they asked what a super-ideal cut h&a diamond was!
So I explained it to them.
Then one said next time I buy a diamond your going with and we all cracked up laughen.

It still inst proof but it is interesting.

I did ask them about a 1.5 vs a 1.25 where the 1.25 was flashier and had more fire and they all said they would take the 1.25.
So size isnt everything.

 

[derekinla]

Whether or not the synthetics will make a significant dent in the diamond market will likely depend on future availablity and supplies of synthetics as well as the efficacy of marketing tactics to the various consumer segments. If in fact the average egagment ring is a 1/2 carat ring and that Walmart is the largest retailer of diamonds in the country, one possible scenario where the synthetics might succeed could be in the 1/2 carat to 1 carat market. If the synthetic manufacturers can crank out 1 carat stones to compete favorably in price with 1/2 carat stones, people might opt for the synthetics to fulfill DeBeer's 1 carat "dream come true"

 

[Toska]

The average consumer will want the synthetic, it is the pricescope buyers who are the people they will have to win over. According to polls, they already have.

I agree with strmrdr

 

[mike04456]

There's really no need to debate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin here--the economic parameters of synthetic gems of all sorts in the jewelry market are well-established. They have never been anything but a niche market and likely never will be.




And you can see the same results with other luxury goods: I can buy a kit-car Ferrari for $20k; Ferrari itself can still find buyers for its $675,000 F50. I can get cheap counterfeit Gucci bags for $20 and fake Rolexes for $200, and people will still drop thousands for the real thing.




Yes, yes, I know we're talking about REAL DIAMONDS. But Joe Consumer doesn't. The great mass of jewelry buyers equates synthetic with fake, and very few people will pay serious money for things they perceive to be fake. This has nothing to do with De Beers; it's simply human nature. People want the real thing. Until that consumer consciousness changes--something that will take generations--synthetic diamonds will never challenge real ones for dominance in the market.

 

[mike04456]

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On 12/23/2003 1:38:07 PM derekinla wrote:











Whether or not the synthetics will make a significant dent in the diamond market will likely depend on future availablity and supplies of synthetics

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Yes, and on that point, I am informed that Apollo's near future production is a whopping 5-10,000 ct/year. Gemesis's planned capacity is going to top out at less than 100,000 ct/year. That's just not enough to create even a blip in the market.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Where'd those legs come from?

Mara, do those belong to you?

 

[Mara]

*groan*




Richard, head over to the Diamond Hangout and take a peek at Rhino's post for the *skinny* on the legs.

 

[pqcollectibles]

I have to wonder if there will be a blip in the market to start with.

When Chatham emeralds were first introduced, many were sold for prices comparable to real emeralds. People loved the color and clarity and Chatham, aka lab created, was not effectively conveyed to the general consumer. Eventually, disclosure was more obvious, possibly market saturation set in (??), and prices for Chatham dropped dramatically. Not really sure of all the factors. I just know that for a while there, my real Columbian and Brazilian emeralds weren't worth anymore than the lab grown green crystals. But then the market changed. The bottom dropped out of the price of Chatham and genuine emeralds rebounded.

Is it possible the same type of market situation could occur again, at least initially, with real diamonds and lab created diamonds?? I wonder....

 

[valeria101]

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On 12/23/2003 11:42:09 PM pqcollectibles wrote:

I have to wonder if there will be a blip in the market to start with.

People loved the color and clarity and Chatham, aka lab created, was not effectively conveyed to the general consumer. ----------------

Yeah, shaky disclosure surely did not help form a healthy market for lab gems. The more recent storm regarding progresively more invasive, radical "enhancement" of mined material surely kept skepticism alive at all levels. There are gray areas in the way these lab diamonds are presented (i.e. redefining "real" in "real diamonds"), but I hope that buyers have learned something out of the battle for gem origin and enhancement disclosure. Hopefully, someone at gemesis will read these and include all upmarket cut-quality buffs in their tarket market

 

[Caratz]

Given the size of the market for diamond simulants (which is far greater by several orders of magnitude than the market for simulants of other gems), I think we may be underestimating the potential size of the market for synthetic diamonds. Of course, it all depends on how they are priced.

 

[mike04456]

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On 12/24/2003 4:05:25 AM Caratz wrote:





Given the size of the market for diamond simulants (which is far greater by several orders of magnitude than the market for simulants of other gems), I think we may be underestimating the potential size of the market for synthetic diamonds. Of course, it all depends on how they are priced.
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Well, yes. If Gemesis and Apollo price their synthetics comparably to CZ and Moissanite, I predict they will sell a ton of them. Of course, they don't seem to be headed in that direction. The market for CZs is huge because they're so damned cheap, but you don't see anyone using CZs as bridal stones. If diamonds could be had for $5/ct, how many people would really want them anymore?