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Poll: Gemesis vs Natural

Discussion in 'RockyTalky' started by Mara, Dec 19, 2003.

If you had your choice of the following and both were priced the same...which would you choose?

  1. 1ct E VS2 superideal RB natural diamond mined from the ground

    1 vote(s)
    100.0%
  2. 2ct E VS2 superideal RB diamond grown in a lab

    1 vote(s)
    100.0%
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  1. Mara
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Mara » Dec 19, 2003
    As requested.




    For poll purposes, assume the pricing would be around $7k for either stone. Not unreasonable either way. [​IMG]




    I think I would choose the natural. $7k for a man-made stone that costs $5 to make (according to article remember?). No way.




    Part of the diamond's charm in my eyes is that it is mined from the ground, it isn't MADE and there isn't any true determination of 'cost' value. Not like an electronics unit which is broken down in terms of cost for parts. Anything above that is revenue. But for the natural diamond, the 'cost' could be construed as the labor put into mining the stone, cutting it, preparing it for market etc...but that is a hazy amount. How to determine easily? Therefore it's easier to say that the natural stone has more value, because it is not as easily quantified by COST...whereas the $5 man-made lab diamond is easily quantified and therefore anything above 'cost' would be too much for the average consumer to want to pay. [​IMG] My two cents.
     
  2. valeria101
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by valeria101 » Dec 19, 2003
    Thanks! faster than I could write! WOW
     
  3. sfbayarea
    Rough_Rock

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    by sfbayarea » Dec 19, 2003
    ditto to what mara said. [​IMG]
     
  4. valeria101
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by valeria101 » Dec 19, 2003
    How many diamond sellers would disclose their premium? Not to mention the other intermediaries... There were questions on pricescope about this. Not that I would imagine that the jewelry business thrives on huge margins, but it certainly is opaque about the cost of the merchandise. Is this a good thing ??!!!

    Mined diamonds are priced by the willingness of consumers to pay alone. Made diamonds are priced according to production costs (more transparent than those in the mining etc. trade though) and relative to the price of the "real stuff" (as this poll has been intuitively formulated).
    It may appear that knowing the cost of either type one can deduce it's ultimate value... but how many things (including man-made diamonds) have never hit the market because their expected price would not cover the cost?

    Maybe with all this cheaper man-made rough, cutterss will get to experiment their art more, rise buyer's expectations about cut quality and make better-cut diamonds of all sorts. Why would anyone cut a man-made diamond BADLY?
     
  5. glitterata
    Ideal_Rock

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    by glitterata » Dec 19, 2003
    Does anyone think the availability of synthetic diamonds will make natural diamonds with visible flaws go up in price, since the flaws would prove that your stone was natural?
     
  6. Toska
    Shiny_Rock

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    by Toska » Dec 19, 2003
    It's the first time we have seen Mara suggest that "size doesn't matter" [​IMG]


    I would go for the "man made" diamond, some people call it synthetic, but when it comes down to it, the molecular structure of man made compared to a mined diamond is identical. This is a pure diamond apart from the fact that it was created in the lab. I am all against synthetics which do not have the physical properties of a diamond.
     
  7. glitterata
    Ideal_Rock

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    by glitterata » Dec 19, 2003
    I voted for the big synthetic, but actually, I wouldn't buy either one. I would buy a smaller synthetic for a LOT less money.
     
  8. valeria101
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by valeria101 » Dec 19, 2003
    ----------------
    On 12/19/2003 8:49:07 PM glitterata wrote:


    Does anyone think the availability of synthetic diamonds will make natural diamonds with visible flaws go up in price, since the flaws would prove that your stone was natural?----------------






    A similar discussion took place for colored gems: in that instance, the answer is NO. Something else happened: buyers' expectations for the look of the natural gems went after the model of the perfect syntetics one gets to see evry day. Of course, such expectations are barely feasible with natural material. SO? The acceptance of treatments increased and the price of the highest quality naturals (which could emulate the man-made perfection) went even higher.




    Wether inclusios will help determine the natural origin of diamonds is not certain: syntetics have inclusions too. Diamond clarity grades are different from colored-stone clarity grades: only diamonds have clarity grades that are only distinguishable under magnification. These eye-clean natural grades may get the effect you say, but there are many if-s about identification along the way. Hopefully, there will be better ways to tell things apart.


    Just as a side: I have heard many times read and been told things like > HUH? That sales (partial truth) pitch does not sound all thet good to me... [​IMG]
     
  9. DiamondExpert
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by DiamondExpert » Dec 19, 2003
    Price is also time-dependent in that production levels/costs, quality, and down line costs of getting the product to market will be greatest in the early phases, but may decrease with time.

    Prices are not so dependent on manufacturing costs that there cannot be included a large margin above that based on demand, and that demand will depend to large extent on marketing - i.e., how desirable can a synthetic/cultured/lab. grown/ man-made diamond be made to be in a largely emotional "setting"?

    I don't pretend to know the answer, but there will be no excuse for cutters not cutting the best regardless of size, unless the market can't/won't support their time/effort/artistry - and this will translate into higher prices for the end user.

    Question: If you could afford to purchase numerous rather large synthetic diamonds, would you wear them in public or would you be afraid someone might gladly endanger your life, thinking they were real?
     
  10. Mexi
    Shiny_Rock

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    by Mexi » Dec 19, 2003
    If there is no visible difference, I'll take the bigger one.[​IMG]
     
  11. pqcollectibles
    Ideal_Rock

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    by pqcollectibles » Dec 19, 2003
    I voted for the REAL, mined outa the ground diamond. Just like I took REAL, mined outa the ground emeralds over chatham.

    I'll take intrinsic quality over gross quantity any day of the week![​IMG]
     
  12. Toska
    Shiny_Rock

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    by Toska » Dec 19, 2003
    DiamondExpert,

    Are you talking about Cubic Zirconia's? If so I can purchase dozens of 5 Carat stones for under $100, or are you actually saying that Gemesis diamonds are not "real diamonds? Please elaborate further.

    Technically Gemesis are synthetic diamonds, but for anybody who needs further clarification on what they are, please read this article... Click Here
     
  13. slizatch
    Rough_Rock

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    by slizatch » Dec 19, 2003
    I picked the big stone. If these "fake" diamonds where every really mass produced then it would devalue all diamonds, and in that case you may as well get the biggest one you can.

    As long as the supply of gemesis diamonds where controlled to maintain the same perception of rareity that real diamonds have I don't think they would have an effect on the market.
     
  14. DiamondExpert
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by DiamondExpert » Dec 19, 2003
    Toska: I'm talking about synthetic diamonds, not simulants. I know what a synthetic diamond is, and I don't see the point of your confusion.

    My point is, if you purchased a very large, or several large synthetic diamonds (presumably because you like the look of diamond,and can afford the synthetics) and wore them, perhaps casually, in public, wouldn't it be possible that you might be putting yourself at risk because a potential thief/mugger will not be able to tell the difference and just might injure/kill you for the stones.
     
  15. MichelleCarmen
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by MichelleCarmen » Dec 19, 2003
    Gary,

    I would be concerned! This is probably why I'd never wear a two carat, real or synthetic [​IMG]

    Michelle
     
  16. strmrdr
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by strmrdr » Dec 19, 2003

    Sure its possible but would I let it stop me... nope
    I sure do get tired of the wimp culture in the US. today and a lot of the rest of the world is even worse.
     
  17. Toska
    Shiny_Rock

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    by Toska » Dec 19, 2003
    DiamondExpert,

    The average thief/mugger is an idiot and would not be able to tell the difference between a Cubic Zirconia and a real diamond. If people have not been getting mugged left right and centre for their cubic zirconia's then why would people who wear gemesis diamonds be more likely targets?

    If someone tried to mug my woman for her real diamond, I would put up a fight and rather die than let the punk take her ring. I've had knives pulled on me before, I'm not sure what I would do with someone pulling a gun on me though. I live in Australia and we don't have as many gun attacks, most muggings are with knives.
    [​IMG]
     
  18. Mara
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Mara » Dec 19, 2003
    Interesting that right now the results are neck and neck with 11 and 12 respectively... [​IMG]




    Toska, I never say 'sacrifice all for size'...I believe in that great balance of all the 4cs [​IMG] With carat having a nice firm place next to cut as the top 2 in my book. Biggest, best cut stone with acceptable color and clarity IMO.
     
  19. joeq
    Rough_Rock

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    by joeq » Dec 20, 2003
    Believe it or not, I would choose the Gemesis stone even if it were the same size, specs, and price. Why?


    • There is nothing special about a "natural" diamond. Hundreds of millions of carats of "natural" diamonds are extracted from the Earth every year. Rare? P-sha! Almost every married women in America has at least one. Now, an actual colorless manmade diamond? That is incredibly rare. Not only that, but it is an important symbol of the progress of mankind. To me, it would almost be like owning the first cultured pearl ever created by Mikimoto. To me, it holds far more symbolic value than the ubiquitous "natural" diamond. A colorless manmade diamond is far more special than a colorless natural diamond.
    • Manmade stones are morally and ethically cleaner. Unfortunately, natural diamonds carry with them quite a terrible history of murder, blood, conflict, slavery, and human rights violations. A natural stone could have come from anywhere. Was my stone purchased from a tribe in Sierra Leone that cuts off the hands of little innocent children? Was it extracted by a child forced into labor and working 18 hours a day? Was it used to finance guns? In most cases I have no way of really knowing. With a Gemesis stone, I know exactly where it came from: a machine in a lab in Florida. The money I spend is going to scientists that are going to improve the technique and allow it to be used to make the next generation of computational devices, which will lead to the bettering all of humanity. I would rather spend my money on that than support Debeers and the half-dozen middlemen that have touched the stone. Morally and ethically, I am much more comfortable with a manmade stone.
    • There is nothing inherently better about a diamond by where you get it. The diamond crystal is carbon atoms. Those carbon atoms are indistinguishable from other carbon atoms. They don't have any memory of where they came from. In both cases, it is just carbon from the earth. Actually all of the carbon in the universe came from stars and matter colliding around the time of the big bang. Those carbon atoms in the manmade diamond are just as old and "natural" as the atoms in a "natural" diamond. Sure, the formation/orientation of the diamond crystal is slightly different in the manmade versus the natural diamond. But who is to say that the "natural" crystal orientation is somehow superior to the crystal in the manmade version? I haven't seen any arguments that either is technically superior to the other.

    In fact, I would pay substantially more for a manmade diamond of the same specs. But I guess I'm just funny like that. (I must have been absent the day everyone drank the Debeers kool-aid that said "Natural (a.k.a. 'our') diamonds are the only 'true' diamonds.")



    I'm curious to hear people's justifications for why they prefer the "natural" diamond.

     
  20. Toska
    Shiny_Rock

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    by Toska » Dec 20, 2003
    joeq,

    WORD [​IMG]

    Mara, I was just stirring, I know you are not one of those people who would choose size over cut. [​IMG]
     
  21. Chrisk327
    Rough_Rock

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    by Chrisk327 » Dec 20, 2003
    just to weigh in on my understanding....
    As far as I knew, the cost of production of "gem quality" manmade diamonds is far in excess of $5 a carat. The $5 number sounds sexy which is why its in the article... but in reality that is not the total cost to produce a gem quailty diamond. I think somewhere I saw the $5 number was more for industrial diamonds...

    Also, when you talk cost... you can say yeah it only costs $5 to make it... but it has taken years of R&D and $$$$$ thousands to millions of dollars in equipment to make this work(and it doesn't yet for colorless).

    People should be a little fairer to companies. from posts before it reads a bit like price gouging.... Reality, there are a lot of costs of doing business. They will get a substantial profit on each sold if they only discount 30%... but there are plenty of goods with huge markups.
    sorry for the preaching, just kinda struck a chord with me.

    No one tells customers at Macy's that their jewelry is marked up 400%
     
  22. fire&ice
    Ideal_Rock

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    by fire&ice » Dec 20, 2003

    No, at any given time I am wearing close to 15cts. Sometimes I wonder if people think they are fake *because* of the volume. It's a non-issue to me.

    That said, Natural. I don't have a great reason. Just what I prefer. But then, I would never use masonite doors. Only wood for me - even though they warp.
     
  23. valeria101
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by valeria101 » Dec 20, 2003

    Actually, with that nice invention, there will be no more choosing! If cut is king, than obviously the cheaper, better quality rough will be the best cut. Getting diamond making and cuttin close to sources of engineering knowledge produced the "russian cut" quality. Imagine the degree of perfection modern world-class engineering would be able to achieve! Those yellow, artificial oval cuts barely have any bow tie now... for example.

    If cut can compensate for color, clarity and carats, can it also compensate for ORIGIN ? Maybe this is why the poll got such tight rezults.
     
  24. FOODIE
    Rough_Rock

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    by FOODIE » Dec 20, 2003
    If they are absolutely indistringuishable from each other, that is going to be very interesting. Nowhere on a GIA report is there a checkbox for the mine that the diamond came from -- similarly, if you can submit a diamond to GIA, for example, and they cannot distinguish the difference, I think it could become very interesting.

    Why couldn't the plant in Florida quietly manufacture diamonds and quietly get them into the market for certification while keeping the origin a secret?

    What if the diamond you are so proud of now TRULY is a synthetic manufactured in Florida (or someplace else, for that matter) and you are unaware of it?

    Wouldn't it protect profits and the market if the synthetic diamonds were simply sold commensurate with diamonds already in the market? They could maintain their company's profitability for years to come ... rather than starting a huge price war that takes from their profits? They are getting into a very high margin business and everyone thinks they will be much less expensive. They don't want to sell diamonds for $30. My bet is they are making this technology investment so that they can sell their diamonds -- but keep the high price tag and not produce too many. It would be foolish to make hundreds of thousands and just lower the value in the market.

    I've been in the computer industry where memory and other components were allocated and the price was outrageous. But with more competition and vendors, the price dropped significantly. I say go ahead and make them, but until there are other companies that also manufacture these diamonds, don't make too many and keep the price tag! (And DeBeers might be happy, too.)

    Just a few thoughts!
     
  25. valeria101
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by valeria101 » Dec 20, 2003

    When those nicely-cut, small russian diamonds hit the market in the middle of the cold war, this kind of question unleashed paranoia. Hopefully, that's gone, but it can get back again any time.
    As long as diamonds cannot be made in somebody's garage / basement, no way their origin can be hold off, of course.
     
  26. Mara
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    by Mara » Dec 20, 2003
    I believe I saw an article on here recently about Gemesis partnering with IGI to have all of the Gemesis stones inscribed with something like 'Gemesis Created'. That would then be put onto any future grading report if it is inscribed on the stone.




    So what if some unscrupulous jeweler lasers it off? Well in previous posts discussing Gemesis and Apollo and the synthetically produced diamonds, it was noted that there are tools being developed that will be able to distinguish mined diamonds from lab created stones.




    So while it seems as though things right now are unclear, of course there is much speculation and discussion behind the scenes. If a truly colorless lab created stone comes out within a year or two, I would not be suprised if the right tools to identify and mark these stones are not far behind or if they are even in existence now.




    [​IMG]
     
  27. Mara
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Mara » Dec 20, 2003
    Chris on your note about markup and cost....the diamonds may not cost $5 each right now to make when you factor in all the time and equipment etc...and yes the number sounds shocking....but the writer of the article is doing the future companies who are selling these stones a disservice in my eyes by preaching that they only cost $5 to make. That article was printed in WIRED....a very mainstream publication, not some random gem mag that only a handful read. Joe Consumer sees that and thinks, wow I'll have to check that out, or 5 years down the road sees a Gemesis stone in the store and thinks..."I remember that! Wait it's $7k? But it costs only $5 to produce".




    Hence why I used the $5 number, for all intents and purposes, that is what the consumer will recall when these stones hit the market. As for actual cost, that is a variable...but no one even bothers to try to put a REAL value number on a mined diamond. Hence the perception of the synthetic vs mined in terms of value, to me, will put the mined at the advantage.




    If I wanted to wear stones that looked like diamonds, I'd wear CZ's. 99% of the general public can't tell the difference anyway. So why pay $7k for a stone that for all intents and purposes is a replication of a mined diamond but built in the lab when I could pay $70 for a same size CZ and 99% of the public couldn't tell the difference? If that was really what I was after, that is.




    [​IMG]
     
  28. Colored Gemstone Nut
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    by Colored Gemstone Nut » Dec 20, 2003
    Mara,




    What I am wondering is if there are any identifiable inherent properties in the crystal structure under scrutny by lab equipment that could identify these stones as lab created vs. mined....




    Colored stones leave a distinctive pattern during synthetic crystalization that rules them out being naturals...




    I wonder if careful examination within the diamond crystal structure can point out means of artificial crystal growth?[​IMG]
     
  29. Mara
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Mara » Dec 20, 2003
    Josh, I recall in some previous posts on this subject that certain characteristics WERE discussed as being identifiers...don't recall what they were though, maybe some archive searches will assist [​IMG]
     
  30. strmrdr
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by strmrdr » Dec 20, 2003
    How about another poll with a 1ct mined for $7000 and a 1ct created for $3500 with all the other specs the same.

    It would be interesting to see if it changes the results.
     
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