Online diamonds and defensive reactions from jewlers

[Und]

I had asked a jeweler which has a good reputation in the local market how much would it cost if supplied a diamond and he set it for me. I war surprised to get a response like this!!! Very long winded and seems very inconsistent to to everything I have read here

 

[flyingpig]

I wish if you can upload a higher resolution version.

Anyhow, I will not comment on every single BS. Just one thing.. is he suggesting the diamond on left (A) and better than the diamond on the right (B)?

 

[Und]

Copied the words below

I hope you don’t mind long detailed emails,


Further to the chat you had today with Jessica, I wanted to touch base with you and run through a few of the issues regarding diamonds and the way this works in relation to pricing and selection.


Firstly let me just say I ve been in the diamond industry as a jeweller for over 40 years, so I can answer any question you may have as we go along.


It may not surprise you to know, that, assuming we are talking about a level playing field, with no missing information or skullduggery, you tend to get what you are prepared to pay for in diamonds, like most things. Of course it is true that the overheads of a business do play a role… So buying directly from the importer as you are when dealing with -, and dealing directly with the ring maker and diamond setter ( as you are with -) means that whatever dollar amount you decide to spend, it is firmly directed toward the diamond and ring. You are not paying for retail rent and the high expenses in “retail land” or brand.



Added to all this, is the fact that if you deal with the right people you will get the right advice and best possible result, with no pitfalls or mis steps along the way. Remember a diamond ring of this type, is for a lifetime… It is a purchase very unlike most any other. Most things we buy, we kind of assume that will need replacing one day or wear out. Diamonds and rings, are a far longer term prospect and things need to be right.



So diamonds, well basically there are high price and lower price and what is in-between, costs can be one way or the other depending on who is selling and how diligent they are in the selection process. How much information they share ( or not ) with the client may be the only inkling you get in relation to what you will receive.



I ll give you an example … Ignoring the quality grades for a moment, there are two types of pricing for diamonds, the A) listing and the B).



“A” listed goods in cutters inventory are diamonds that have been graded ( often with certification like GIA) and are considered as great - reasonable - good examples of the specific grade ( although in this area there is still much to decided between ).



“B” listed goods, will contain diamonds that have been certified too by GIA, but may have an issues over and above the grading report. That is to say outside the scope of the GIA certification. At this point I must tell you a GIA certificate is a very very limited document, it may well not state the obvious issues a diamond has, these issues can be many and are always in the negative of course.



In effect some web based dealers, display only goods from “B” listed inventory ( or may mix A and B ), They may still have reasonable and or very good looking certification ( just a bit of paper ), however this is because you need to understand that certification in diamonds , even GIA standard, do not cover key visual areas.



A visual example of the failure of certification to identify “good” looking diamonds is seen in the photos below ( just one issue of many, in this case it is high or low lustre.



So you can have “a” listed goods with EXCELLENT lustre, in clarity grades from Flawless down to Si2 AND then “B” listed goods that can also be Flawless to Si2 and have “lustre” grade at - very good and then M1 - M5 below that.



So what you see is a certificate that can say internally flawless or VVS1 or whatever and if selected in the “B” listings actually look murky ( slightly murky - to very milky looking ). It may )( or mayn’t ) be only be slight, but it is a negative in rings none the less, especially once set if next to Excellent lustre diamonds.



It is the cutting inventory listings that tell us which group a diamond falls into, NOT the certification. As a result you cannot depend on GIA information and a basic list of diamonds to determine what is really “good”.



The reason for this is, the certification such as GIA covers clarity ONLY. This is based solely the position and size of “inclusions”. SO in the case of the two example diamonds below, you can see some tiny little specks in the bottom edge, these give the basis for grading of clarity ( around the 6 O’clock position ). If the diamonds were free of these, they BOTH could be could be classified as internally flawless by the GIA grading system.



Look at them again, and consider the lustre.. i.e How sharp and clear looking is the diamond on the left compared to the diamond on the right ?



Remember these are BOTH the same GIA certified grade ( VS1 in this case ).



So as the GIA do not cover this one thing ..there are other missing things too, many websites also don’t cover it either.



You type in your parameters and many sites show you listed diamonds derived from inventory data bases, and taken from “B” listings.



If you don’t pay enough you may not get a good option…you just may not know it until later.







Your ring request;



Asscher cut diamond and trapezoid side diamonds.



Key elements are that the main diamond must be of correct size to make sure the claws align for the trapezoid diamond size that is POSSIBLE.

In effect correct selection is required for the ring to work in more than grades and how heavy things are.



With this type of layout certainly the better proportioned 1.20 ct and up will likely be needed for the central diamond.



Budget ? Well this is going to depend on a few things.. I can say it is likely, if we are to assume you want a “good diamonds” that we will be talking about a total ring cost in the region of 15 - 16 k total ring if G colour ( may be a bit low ) or 16 - 17 k E colour.



If your budget were to be under these targets then I can safely say the you will only be shopping in “B” listings. What “issues” are making the diamond a bit better cost ? The trouble is identifying if these things compromise the ring / side diamond selection, or indeed are of “lumpy" cut, making them unsuitable to match the available trapezoids diamond sizes.



There is much to consider, so I ll leave you with all that to consider, you will no double need to read it a few times to get your head around it.. as I said at the start, any question, just ask.



I ll be more that happy to start the process of finding the right diamond/s rather than just any diamond.

 

[kb1gra]

I read some of it, and I mostly disagree that a ring is for a lifetime and it must be exactly perfect and if it is it will last forever.

Rings are a wear item and especially how people tend to wear them, never removing them for years on end, they are MORE likely to need maintenance, repair, and replacement than something like a pendant.

I'm not sure what prompted this response, as I see it references a previous conversation, but if the gist of it was that you absolutely do not trust him to find you a diamond to your preferences or at a fair price, but you still want his labor and effort on the other part, well, I guess I can understand where he's coming from.

 

[PreRaphaelite]

I have heard of "lustre" as it pertains to pearls, but never to diamonds.
Does the jeweler mean to say 'polish'?

The statement that GIA grades only on clarity, is b*llsh*t.

 

[Und]

I read some of it, and I mostly disagree that a ring is for a lifetime and it must be exactly perfect and if it is it will last forever.

Rings are a wear item and especially how people tend to wear them, never removing them for years on end, they are MORE likely to need maintenance, repair, and replacement than something like a pendant.

I'm not sure what prompted this response, as I see it references a previous conversation, but if the gist of it was that you absolutely do not trust him to find you a diamond to your preferences or at a fair price, but you still want his labor and effort on the other part, well, I guess I can understand where he's coming from.

I asked for a quote for ring setting if I provided the diamond. Honestly, I hadn't been here and done my research I would have believed what he said about A class and B class diamonds

 

[kb1gra]

I have heard of "lustre" as it pertains to pearls, but never to diamonds.
Does the jeweler mean to say 'polish'?

The statement that GIA grades only on clarity, is b*llsh*t.

I think this person is referring to the fact that GIA does not grade transparency which is true. The infamous "clouds not shown" clarity grade is one of these points. Polish gradings do reflect impact on lustre, but not at the level of a 3x stone.

He may be referring to modifiers, such as brown tint (which carries a color grading penalty).

But honestly, if you don't trust him - don't use him, and don't waste your time or his.

 

[Lisa Loves Shiny]

"Remember a diamond ring of this type, is for a lifetime." That is romantic but IMHO sounds like marketing. The whole "A diamond is forever" advertisement comes to mind. For most of us, If we decide to upgrade/sell our diamond ring, that forever diamond loses at least some of its "lifetime" value.

 

[flyingpig]

When you see a vendor using the term "lustre" when describing a diamond, you just run. No exception

 

[Bron357]

This is what ”bricks and mortar” jewellers tend to say and do, they “dis” on any and every diamond they aren’t supplying. They get a “cut” of the $$$ when they supply the diamond. And that’s not unreasonable. The jeweller is the one with the expenses ie shop, staff, insurance, stock so they often need every bit of $$$ from all the aspects of creating a diamond ring.
My jeweller has the shop front and the staff. He will ”bring in” diamonds or gems for me to view. However he has a designer who helps create the vision of the ring for me and he doesn’t make any of the jeweller himself, he has a bench that does that. My jeweller oversees all these parts of the process to ensure I get the ring I dreamt of.
True, it is difficult for a novice to buy a diamond online. You need to be able to interpret cut and clarity. This is doable these days with various filters and calculators and of course Pricescope. Nevertheless some people do need their jeweller to apply their knowledge and experience to acquire an appropriate diamond and it’s worth the “cut” the jeweller makes on the diamond BUT not all jewellers are qualified gemologists/ diamond appraisers. They might have 20 years experience and seen 50,000 diamonds. They might have 20 years experience and seen 1,000 diamonds.
I found it easier when I have the gemstone /diamond already to say it’s an inherited piece. They don’t seem to mind as much then.

 

[123ducklings]

It is the cutting inventory listings that tell us which group a diamond falls into, NOT the certification. As a result you cannot depend on GIA information and a basic list of diamonds to determine what is really “good”.

Without the context of what this email is responding to it’s hard to parse what is going on. I’m wondering if this is a non-native English speaker (or a native English speaker who prefers verbal over written communication) trying to clumsily communicate with someone he believes to be an uneducated buyer that cut is king and just because GIA gives a “very good” rating, does not mean the stone will perform “very good.” Basically warning you against buying a stone online simply because it was certified. In which case, I would agree.

I’m not sure what feedback you’re looking for, but I will say that email communication and jewelry making are two different skills. If this is a locally reputable jeweler that I wanted to use to set some stones I had already sourced I would thank him for his input, reiterate that I already had stones I was happy with, and ask about the cost of having them set.

 

[Matthews1127]

In my own experience, with our local jeweler, here in the US, I sent my sales rep out on a mission to procure 7 identical Asschers for an anniversary band.
After 3 months, she came up empty, only finding square emeralds at dbl the Carat weight I was seeking.
I decided to try a different avenue.
@OoohShiny pointed me in the direction of Yoram F. (@diagem ) at GemConcepts.
I reached out to him on a whim.
From first email contact to box delivery, the entire transaction took 3 weeks.
He had found 7 perfectly proportioned vintage cut Asschers at just the right Carat weight and size for my band.
I called my sales rep at our jeweler’s, and shared the news.
I went over to show her my new babies.
There was no hesitation when I asked if they would not only SET my diamonds, but they were eager to CREATE my setting based upon my specifications and design.
I met with the jeweler, we put the design on paper, and I got my quote.They even agreed to insure the diamonds while in their possession, and during setting.
That band is the next large project on my list.

ANY business is GOOD business.
ALL GOOD business leads to REPEAT business.

If this vendor is not agreeable, work with the seller of the diamond you are considering.

 

[MissGotRocks]

I didn't read it all word for word either but read enough to know that I wouldn't deal with him. Clear communication and understanding is key for me - when you try to fuzz it all up to bamboozle me, I am simply GONE.

 

[lovedogs]

When you see a vendor using the term "lustre" when describing a diamond, you just run. No exception

This this this.

 

[Karl_K]

Every diamond dealer who ever sourced a diamond wishes it was this easy!
There are diamonds with more and less "things" per grade but the sellers aren't going to list them out for you in an A,B list.
This is hogwash.....

"“A” listed goods in cutters inventory are diamonds that have been graded ( often with certification like GIA) and are considered as great - reasonable - good examples of the specific grade ( although in this area there is still much to decided between ).



“B” listed goods, will contain diamonds that have been certified too by GIA, but may have an issues over and above the grading report. That is to say outside the scope of the GIA certification. At this point I must tell you a GIA certificate is a very very limited document, it may well not state the obvious issues a diamond has, these issues can be many and are always in the negative of course. "

 

[Karl_K]

"Look at them again, and consider the lustre.. i.e How sharp and clear looking is the diamond on the left compared to the diamond on the right ? "

Try one is steep deep and the other one is in the near tolk range.
Cut is the difference between the two.

 

[Karl_K]

This is just silly you match the sides to the center not the other way around...
"Key elements are that the main diamond must be of correct size to make sure the claws align for the trapezoid diamond size that is POSSIBLE. "

 

[Karl_K]

That there is a lot of things that are not on the grading report is very true.
But you can have a guided experience online also.
Or you can diy with forum help and have it inspected in the return policy by an appraiser if your not confident enough to do it yourself.

 

[Karl_K]

Its a rant: some true, some exaggerated, some false, and some just plain silly.
Overall not uncommon at all.

 

[stonehunter20]

you are definitely not alone! i also had a bad experience with a "popular" jeweler and my experience is totally the opposite of what people said here. they really pushed to sell their stones like Bron357 said.

however, as a stubborn type 1 personality, i am not going to settle on the jeweler's very limited inventory and very uncompetitive price. I wanted the best stone and the best deal for myself and do not give in when a jeweler holds their skills as hostage. bad business practice in my opinion.

 

[Und]

I was honestly really surprised by the A and B class! It seems to like most retailers have access to the big cutters and buy from the same place

In my own experience, with our local jeweler, here in the US, I sent my sales rep out on a mission to procure 7 identical Asschers for an anniversary band.
After 3 months, she came up empty, only finding square emeralds at dbl the Carat weight I was seeking.
I decided to try a different avenue.

@OoohShiny pointed me in the direction of Yoram F. (@diagem ) at GemConcepts.
I reached out to him on a whim.
From first email contact to box delivery, the entire transaction took 3 weeks.
He had found 7 perfectly proportioned vintage cut Asschers at just the right Carat weight and size for my band.
I called my sales rep at our jeweler’s, and shared the news.
I went over to show her my new babies.

Wow I am so glad you found the 7 asschers! Its okay sometimes one vendor is the right person to help you and sometimes not. I really like the tight community here. It's awesome.

Out of curiosity what is the difference between SQ Em and asscher?

There was no hesitation when I asked if they would not only SET my diamonds, but they were eager to CREATE my setting based upon my specifications and design.
I met with the jeweler, we put the design on paper, and I got my quote.They even agreed to insure the diamonds while in their possession, and during setting.
That band is the next large project on my list.

ANY business is GOOD business.
ALL GOOD business leads to REPEAT business.

If this vendor is not agreeable, work with the seller of the diamond you are considering.

Exactly!! Honestly I was thinking if I support a local Jeweler, it is still business and they are making a return on a service. I'll stick with either Mark or VC! This guy doesn't seem like I can work with him which is okay

I totally disagree with him. It's hard finding the right diamond and from what I've seen cut makes a huge difference. But you should still be able to set a ring even if you don't find the diamond. I don't think that is good business[/QUOTE]

 

[LLJsmom]

When you see a vendor using the term "lustre" when describing a diamond, you just run. No exception

Truth! At least that's what I would do...

 

[LLJsmom]

I didn't read it all word for word either but read enough to know that I wouldn't deal with him. Clear communication and understanding is key for me - when you try to fuzz it all up to bamboozle me, I am simply GONE.

PREACH...

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

When you see a vendor using the term "lustre" when describing a diamond, you just run. No exception

Lustre is a word commonly used in the trade emanating from respected Indian diamond cutters and it means transperancy.
Many honourable large manufacturers give a grade which is of great benefit because GIA use jargon and help dealers sell dull dross.

 

[Matthews1127]

“Out of curiosity what is the difference between SQ Em and asscher?”
L x W ratio and shape.
There tends to be a break in the windmills at the center, as well.
True Asschers have a l x w ratio of 1.00:1-1.03:1. Anything over that will commonly be referred to as a Sq. EC.
I love Sq. EC’s, but they were not what I was looking for, and I wanted stones at the 0.25ct 3-4mm sq. range. The sq. EC’s she found were almost 0.50ct each. That wasn’t going to work.

Here is my thread relating to my journey. I originally wanted Royal Asschers, but as I mentioned in your previous thread, they are not easy to find, and I learned, they are not cut that small...lol!

Show Me Your Asscher Eternity/Anniversary Bands!

Things are getting real, PSers!! I met with my jeweler, today, to give the go to source 0.25-0.30ct, G, SI2 (eye clean)-VS1, Royal Asscher diamonds with l x w ratio 1.00:1/each to build my 7 stone Royal Asscher Anniversary Band! I'm hoping to hear something around Tues., next week. This project...

www.pricescope.com

Examples of sq. EC’s:

 

[kb1gra]

Lustre is a word commonly used in the trade emanating from respected Indian diamond cutters and it means transperancy.
Many honourable large manufacturers give a grade which is of great benefit because GIA use jargon and help dealers sell dull dross.

Thank you, Gary. After all the posts saying a stone must be seen and verified for transparency issues, to say that luster is immaterial or doesn't exist just because we haven't heard of it...well.

 

[Karl_K]

sq ec is one of the the GIA generic names for asscher.
It is also used for square emerald cuts.
If the culet comes to a keel(line) its an emerald cut if it comes to a point its an asscher.
An open culet will be longer on an ec than an asscher.

lxw ratio under 1.05 is called a sg ec 1.05 and over is an EC even if it has a pointed culet.

I dont remember exactly how many other terms GIA can use for an asscher but there are a bunch of them.

 

[denverappraiser]

Some of the language here is a little different than what we’re used to but the general premise that there is important information that is not on the GIA is correct. Diamonds of the same grade are not fungible. He/she may indeed be an excellent jeweler but where I diverge is the implication that they are the ONLY good jeweler or that the difference is their address. ‘Online’ means no more or less than a jeweler in someone else’s neighborhood who is advertising to you. There’s nothing wrong with that and everyone, no doubt including them, does it. The step he’s skipping is that you need to evaluate the jeweler, not just the offer, and this applies both online and on the street.

To answer your question, most jewelers sell diamonds and will be disappointed not to get a sale. They can and often do charge differently for the work if you supply the materials and, if they have any sense, they’ll reserve the right to refuse a job until they’ve actually inspected the stone(s). Some of the issues that can come up will affect the setter or the designer. It’s a slightly different process to work with client supplied stones but most WILL do it.

 

[seaurchin]

The step he’s skipping is that you need to evaluate the jeweler, not just the offer, and this applies both online and on the street.

This is so true. I have run into the occasional strange jeweler both online and in person, the same as with any other type of individually owned small business. There are those who have what it takes to succeed and those who would be fired immediately if they had a boss.

 

[Kaycee2018]

I didn't read the entire email or all the responses, but I have heard brick and mortar jewelers use the argument that basically only second tier diamonds are sold online after the best ones are selected by brick and mortar jewelers. Maybe that's what he was trying to relay. Though I am not sure that is a believable argument since most brick and mortar jewelers only keep a small stock on hand and otherwise source diamonds...I assume from the some of the same suppliers that work with online retailers.