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Next move? Over graded

D

dad

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 21, 2016
Messages
19
I'll try to make this short. Bought a ring a few years ago that was egli g, si2, at 2.12 carats. Never gave it to anyone and now was thinking about selling. Most places did not trust the egli report so I went ahead and got a gia certification. It came back j, I2, and 2.11 carats. I definitely overpaid at more than 16k, but now I learn this diamond is worth more around 5-6k and is not what I thought it was. So, I am wondering what I should do. Contact the dealer? Chalk it up to a bad deal? I wonder what your thoughts are. Thanks for your consideration.
 
Try to return it. It probably won't work.

Did you happen to pay with a credit card? If you did then there might be light at the end of that tunnel. If you paid cash (which people who don't do their research and buy EGL stones frequently do, maddeningly) then you are probably out of luck short of filing suit.
 
Interesting. I paid via debit card. From my wellsfargo account. I called Wells Fargo and they said it might be covered under their claims department. Thanks for your help .
 
dad|1461295994|4022310 said:
Interesting. I paid via debit card. From my wellsfargo account. I called Wells Fargo and they said it might be covered under their claims department. Thanks for your help .
Click to expand...

That's your only option really. I hope SINCERELY it works out for you. Please let us know how it goes.

Law suit about EGL! [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/been-wondering-when-this-would-happen-lawsuit-over-grading.204318/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/been-wondering-when-this-would-happen-lawsuit-over-grading.204318/[/URL]

Rapnet bans EGL: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/rapnet-bans-egl-reports-from-trading-network.205934/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/rapnet-bans-egl-reports-from-trading-network.205934/[/URL]

You best bet is to negotiate either a return. Or an exchange. If they offer you an exchange come here and we'll help you get the best stone for your budget from them.

Okay?

This will help you:
 
I called Wells Fargo and they said it might be covered under their claims department. Thanks for your help .
Click to expand...

Nice work Gypsy!
 
Thanks for all of your help. I will call today and keep you posted .
 
Dad,
You may want to take a two-pronged approach. That is, contact the merchant (if you have not already) and let them know of your concern and share with them the GIA report. Also let them know you are actively pursuing all options.

The merchant may be inclined to work out a settlement with you, and that may be a more desirable path in the long run. Much will depend on what you hear from the credit card company. There is often good protection there, but it may involve time, effort and hassle. Alot will depend on whether the merchant currently has a relationship with the credit card company. If so, the credit card company may be able to do a charge back (retrieve your money) pending the outcome of their investigation.

By all means please do keep the forum apprised of your case. It is very a important issue to all of us here. Both consumers and legitimate jewelers are harmed by fraudulent grading and trade practices.

Good Luck!
 
Thanks for the response... I called Wells Fargo and they mentioned that past 120 days, there is not much they can do.

I also called the merchant, but I have yet to reach him. I will let you know what he says when and if we are able to speak. Thanks again for all of your help.
 
dad|1461338386|4022436 said:
Thanks for the response... I called Wells Fargo and they mentioned that past 120 days, there is not much they can do.

I also called the merchant, but I have yet to reach him. I will let you know what he says when and if we are able to speak. Thanks again for all of your help.
Click to expand...
There are others here that have expertise in legal matters that often weigh in with helpful information and support in cases such as this.

You might not want to publicize the name of the merchant until you see how they intend to respond, but I am curious to know if they run a high profile business. If so, I would think they would rather work with you on this than have you escalate it.
 
The diamond was bought a few years ago. Many diamonds are overpriced in regular jewelry stores and especially ones that aren't GIA graded. I am not really seeing how anything can be done several years later. It is wise to get an appraisal on a stone that is not GIA graded within the return period. But I realize that is no help to you now.

One more thing. Are they saying they would offer you $5-6k now for the diamond or would that the the retail? Because offers for 2nd hand diamonds can easily be half of retail. You can't compare your original retail price to selling back basically at wholesale.
 
This happened to me once. I purchased a diamond from a jewelry company that was over graded. When I found out it was years later, prices had jumped significantly and I was upset for being duped. The company was amazing, took it back towards trade at the current market value which was much more than I had paid. I hope your vendor will work with you. I'd be nice but assertive. I do think you have other avenues of recourse if your vendor refuses so don't just walk away feeling stuck. They have to back up what they sell in my opinion.
 
RockBrat|1461343101|4022469 said:
This happened to me once. I purchased a diamond from a jewelry company that was over graded. When I found out it was years later, prices had jumped significantly and I was upset for being duped. The company was amazing, took it back towards trade at the current market value which was much more than I had paid. I hope your vendor will work with you. I'd be nice but assertive. I do think you have other avenues of recourse if your vendor refuses so don't just walk away feeling stuck. They have to back up what they sell in my opinion.
Click to expand...
Great advice to be 'nice but assertive'. And I agree there are other potential avenues of recourse. The devil is in the details of course, but one aspect that may be relevant is timing. Because there was much publicity surrounding the EGL lawsuits and delisting by Rapaport (see the links Gypsy posted above), the jeweler's responsibility may be in some ways tied to whether they had good reason to assume the diamond was overgraded when they sold it.
 
Playing the devil's advocate.

It sounds to me that you were not informed sufficiently at the time of your purchase to have not verified the diamond you were buying matched the report you were handed with it. Even back 10 or more years ago, this was a standard practice of those who were cautious or in the know. Even then, EGL overseas was publishing horrible documents, but the conscience of the trade was not nearly as disturbed by it then as after Mr. Rapaport had a moment of conscience and clarity. I suspect RAPAPORT has ulterior reasons to have made the announcement about banning such report issuers, not a new found moment of enlightenment on his part. This pitiful problem was something he was well aware of for a long time. Education is a great defense against making a poor buying decision. If you "trusted" someone and never verified years ago, you have now become more sophisticated and will not let it happen again. This was a rather costly lesson and I sort of doubt any party will willingly share the cost of this lesson with you. Sometime, you must learn all by yourself. It is a tough world on the unsuspecting.

A diamond that was sold as SI2 and was actually I2 is a vastly different quality. The same, to a lesser degree with the color shift, too. The clarity issue is major. You must never have even looked into the diamond with a magnifier or you would have had some moment of realization a long time ago. Discovering it now is rather long past the golden moment where much can or should be resolved. Are you in a position to prove the diamond you now have is the actual one you bought years ago? It even has an incorrect weight. You have had control over the diamond for quite a period of time. Are you in a position to prove you are the honest one and the injured party? Maybe you can, but it will not be an easy thing to do. Is the seller a major player or a small vendor? The value of their reputation may assist you in making a settlement even if you really don't deserve it.

Thirdly, the price anyone is asked to pay for a diamond is not what you might hope to sell it for near the time following the purchase. You have no retail capability like a normal diamond vendor. You have no inventory to select from. You have no mountings to choose from. You likely can't take a credit card, collect sales tax, accept a bank wire, or even send the stone overnight with sufficient insurance. You are stuck selling to dealers who pay immediately for what you own and now wish to sell. Or you are stuck with those who will accept a consigned diamond to sell for you with no time frame or for certain price that will actually be obtained. It might never sell if you want too much money.

You have now shown your stone to someone who knows it is a J-I2 and they made you an offer which sounds low to you, but you will not know it is unless you do some further pricing searches with other buyers. I believe your diamond is not worth even $5K to $6K for an immediate payment diamond buyer. It is worth far less to such buyers. Just be sure you are getting a real offer for immediate payment. Many of those buyers will ask you a question such as "Would you take $5,000 for your diamond?" If you say "No", then they won't waste more time with you. Once you have three or more real, cash based offers in the same range, that is pretty good information to base some verifiable knowledge upon. You still may not like the result but that is not the buyer's problem. Diamonds sold back into the market go through a few profits on their way back to being finally re-sold at retail. You can't jump in on the final step. It just doesn't happen often that anyone outside the diamond trade retails their diamond to another consumer. You are free to try, but I would not have high expectations of your success. There is no harm in trying, of course.

Remember, I am the devil's advocate here. I personally wish you well with your efforts to get back as much money as you can. The scandalous lab reports along with the retailers who used them to defraud their victims were very damaging to the diamond trade. Those reports are gradually being thrown into trash cans. Many of these retailers have closed their doors. It took way too long to make things better, but it is better now than it used to be.
 
Thanks to all for the solid advice and the thoughtful replies. All of your perspectives are much appreciated and I am thankful for your consideration.

I ended up contacting the dealer today and shared my concerns. After explaining my disappointment and requesting that we work toward an agreement we can both be happy with, the vendor mentioned that he would take the diamond back and replace it with a GIA certified diamond that is actually worth the value I paid. I know that is somewhat subjective, but I hope to get a better diamond from the transaction than a GIA-graded 2.11 carat J, I2. I looked at what is selling on this website for around $16k, and I think something in the range of a GIA-graded 1.70-1.80 carat G, triple X, VS1 is probably what I should be looking for (thoughts?).

We'll see if the vendor actually follows through with everything - I am sure he will, it is just that most times you never know how things work out until they are worked out. For now though I am hopeful and I am pleased to know the vendor stands by his products.

I will keep you posted.
 
I am very glad to hear the vendor is going to work with you. I'd get the best diamond you can buy for your credit value. And definitely GIA 3X. Not all 3Xs are created equal but that's where you want to start. I think a 1.70 to 1.80 G, VS1 is great!
 
Thanks, Rockbrat... I'll keep you posted as things transpire.
 
No. Do not require a Vs1. It's frankly wasting money on clarity.

I would tell him you don't anything less than an SI1 GIA. And it must be eyeclean. That's all you need. The diamond will be safe and to the naked eye indistinquishable from a VS1.

Trust me. You NEVER need Vs1 in a round. An accurately graded Si1 is a great stone. I wouldn't go any higher as far as "floor" goes.

Also give him the part in RED.

Round Diamonds 101:

The entire purpose of faceting a diamond is to reflect light.
How well or how poorly a diamond does this determines how beautiful it is.
How well a diamond performs is determined by the angles and cutting. This is why we say cut is king.
No other factor: not color, not clarity has as much of an impact on the appearance of a diamond as its cut. An ideal H will out white a poorly cut F. With round diamonds even a GIA triple Excellent is not enough. And you must stick to GIA and AGS only (HPD in Europe is good as well). EGL is a bad option: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/[/URL]
So how to we ensure that we have the right angles and cutting to get the light performance we want?
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-cut
Well one method is to start with a GIA Ex, and then apply the HCA to it. YOU DO NOT USE HCA for AGS0 stones generally, though you can. In general, AGS0 trumps HCA though as one examines the actual stone and the other does not.
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/holloway-cut-advisor
The HCA is a rejection tool. Not a selection tool. It uses 4 data points to make a rudimentary call on how the diamond may perform.
If the diamond passes then you know that you are in the right zone in terms of angles for light performance. Under 2 is a pass. Under 2.5-2.1 is a maybe. 2.6 and over is a no. No score 2 and under is better than any other.
Is that enough? Not really.

So what you need is a way to check actual light performance of your actual stone.
That's what an idealscope image does. https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/firescope-idealscope
It shows you how and wear your diamond is reflecting light, how well it is going at it, and where you are losing light return. That is why you won't see us recommending Blue Nile, as they do not provide idealscope images for their diamonds. BGD,BE, James Allen, GOG, HPD, ERD and WF do.

The Idealscope is the 'selection tool'. Not the HCA.
So yes, with a GIA stone you need the idealscope images. Or you can buy an idealscope yourself and take it in to the jeweler you are working with to check the stones yourself. Or if you have a good return policy (full refund minimum 7 days) then you can buy the idealscope, buy the stone, and do it at home.

Now if you want to skip all that... stick to AGS0 stones and then all you have to do is pick color and clarity and you know you have a great performing diamond. Because AGS has already done the checking for you. That's why they trade at a premium. Some AGS0's are better than others though, so pay attention to any ASET or IS provided.

In general with rounds, you will want a table 60% or less. A depth between 59 and 62.4. Crown angle 33.5-35. Pavilion Angle: 40.6-40.8 (there is a little give on this). And the crown and pavilion angles must be complimentary which is what the HCA checks for you.

ON COLOR:

It is important to remember is that color is graded FACE DOWN. Where there is NO light return. Not face up where there is light return and refraction. You wear diamonds set. FACE UP.

Within one color grade, even the labs can't agree on the color grades of stones and something could be a "high" H or a "low" E. So... no. Not really. Within 2 color grades it is hard. Not impossible. But very hard. And it gets harder once set. If you are talking ideal rounds, or any stone with ideal light return and no sharp corners it gets harder still because the ideal light return masks body color.

Generally we say to be conservative stay above H in a round. But MANY people have happily bought white I or even J diamonds when trying to eek out a little more size.

This is how I think of it.

Ever gotten one of those HUGE paint fan decks? Where there are literally 100s of colors of whites? And when they are RIGHT next to each other you can TOTALLY tell that one is bluer/colder and one is a bit warmer and which one is one is TOTALLY warmer. One there's one that's slightly greener. One that's slightly pinker? But really. They are all white?

Then you pick one after agonizing over this white or that white and when it's on the walls and people are like: Oh. You painted again. And it's STILL white. Great.

And you're all... BUT it's BLUE white. Or it's a WARM white now. It used to be ____ white. It's TOTALLY different.

It's like that. You are talking about shades of white. D is colder... J is warmer. But it's all white.

YES. If you have an accurately graded F and an H THAT HAVE THE SAME PERFORMANCE you are going to be able to tell them apart when you compare them. Just like you would be able to tell if you painted your walls a warm white, but painted the crown molding a cold/straight white. But both are STILL white.


I want you notice all the qualifiers thought. I'm talking about stones with the SAME performance. An ideal H will out white an F that has compromised light performance from a poor cut.

NOTHING impacts the appearance of a diamond as much as cut. CUT is king.

You want the shinest whitest and brightest diamond out there: Cut is King. No other factor, not color or clarity or anything else impacts how white bright an shiny a stone is.

ON CLARITY:
http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/Clarity/SI/ and http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/Clarity/VS/ Generally we say that eyeclean SI1 and VS2 are as high as you need to go with round brilliants, have your vendor check the diamond for this. VS1 will always be eyeclean, but they do cost more and an eyeclean SI1 and a VS1 will look the same to the unaided eye. And VS1 is unnecessary.
 
Yeah, vS1 is definitely not necessary. Just focus on finding a well-cut stone first.
 
I would prefer VS1 to SI1. I think it gives an all over better quality. We used to hear that we should pick a
balanced stone meaning that all C's are a balance. I would like one of the appraisers to come here and say
that a VS1 is not required? Yes it is not required but then why not get an J SI1 because with this way of
thought that is just as good as a G SI1. If the VS1 is overkill then so is the G surely.
 
I wonder if there is a change of shift with diamond buying that people are going for size so lower quality. Either
this or there is less money being put into diamonds now instead of other things and people just go for look to
the naked eye and rarity is no longer valued. Everyone on here used to try to get good quality and then stretch
to get a 1 carat and most people did not and this was even with the ideal cut. We saw people buying like F VS1 0.89 or
D VS1 0.73. Now everyone has to have size. This was even before old cut diamonds were being bought, it was
all round brilliant cut on pricescope then. If SI1 etc is the thing, why did the dealers on here not promote large
diamonds of lower color and clarity back then? There again where I live (uk) there is not many people that interested
in diamonds and once they marry they just wear the plain gold band and leave of the engagement ring.


I have just been told that the 2011 diamond increases saw people going for lower colour and larger stones, is this
true, was that the reason?
 
Pyramid|1461406857|4022702 said:
I wonder if there is a change of shift with diamond buying that people are going for size so lower quality. Either
this or there is less money being put into diamonds now instead of other things and people just go for look to
the naked eye and rarity is no longer valued. Everyone on here used to try to get good quality and then stretch
to get a 1 carat and most people did not and this was even with the ideal cut. We saw people buying like F VS1 0.89 or
D VS1 0.73. Now everyone has to have size. This was even before old cut diamonds were being bought, it was
all round brilliant cut on pricescope then. If SI1 etc is the thing, why did the dealers on here not promote large
diamonds of lower color and clarity back then? There again where I live (uk) there is not many people that interested
in diamonds and once they marry they just wear the plain gold band and leave of the engagement ring.


I have just been told that the 2011 diamond increases saw people going for lower colour and larger stones, is this
true, was that the reason?
Click to expand...

From all of my reading on here most of the quality aspect of the stone is in the cut, isn't it? Maybe consumers are getting more savvy with their choices as they get more educated with all of the info available. If a nicely cut H or I is going to face up white, and an Si1 can be eye clean, why pay for what you can't see?

I think the younger generation in the UK are getting more interested in good quality diamonds, I see my younger colleagues wearing bigger stones and taking more interest in the specs than I did 20 years ago!
 
I wouldn't buy a diamond with less than VS clarity. Not everyone is the same.
 
Wow! All good information and thoughts. Thanks, especially to Gypsy for the detailed and thorough response. I appreciate learning the important information you shared and I am grateful for your taking the time to inform me about the ins and outs of buying a round diamond.

I have sent an email to the vendor last night regarding getting the exchange started and I have not heard from him yet. As soon as we start getting closer to deciding on stones I will post the options here for some feedback and advice. Again, i appreciate everything people have done on here to help!
 
That's great that he is amenable to working with you, instead of just shrugging and saying "tough noogies" or "sorry, but I'm not going to give you a full credit re a purchase made years ago."

Is this a bricks-and-mortar jewelry store? If so, think it's unrealistic to count on him exchanging your roughly 3-year-old diamond for the kind of stones you see presently listed by online retailers on the PS database for ~$16K. In any event, how were matters left between you two; is he going to to produce some diamonds for you to view or are you supposed to be the first to propose specific possibilities? (When negotiating, I prefer to not be the first one out of the box; would rather be the one responding to an initial offer rather than be the party making the first offer. But it probably would be more efficient in this instance to give him your color and clarity parameters & cut specs, as per Gypsy's outline, leaving size as the big variable for right now).

Hope this all goes smoothly!
 
Gypsy|1461299556|4022329 said:
* * * Law suit about EGL! [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/been-wondering-when-this-would-happen-lawsuit-over-grading.204318/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/been-wondering-when-this-would-happen-lawsuit-over-grading.204318/[/URL]
* * *
Click to expand...
JCK -- the trade journal whose 2014 article prompted the initial post in that PS thread -- has continued to follow the saga, and it ain't pretty in terms of attorney professionalism and ethics. E.g., Cummings Manookian, the Nashville law firm that initiated the since-discontinued litigation vs Genesis Diamonds re EGL International diamonds (lawsuit settled for an undisclosed figure with a confidentiality agreement) now represents Genesis Diamonds. And has engaged in what I consider to be reprehensible, "ambulance chasing" tactics to solicit new clients in litigation against other jewelers -- while, at the same time, Brian Manookian was telling at least one of the targeted jewelers (who has said it's been years since his stores carried EGL International-graded diamonds) that he would stop if the jeweler retained him (Manookian has denied that, but his story strikes me as far less plausible, especially in light of the fact that Genesis is now one of his clients). Here are JCK's 2016 articles about this:
http://www.jckonline.com/blogs/cutting-remarks/2016/01/29/have-overgrading-lawsuits-become-overkill
http://www.jckonline.com/blogs/cutting-remarks/2016/02/12/overgrading-saga-continues-lawsuit-targets-lawyer

While I was happy to see EGL International suffer serious consequences via RapNet delisting, think it's worth pointing out that anyone can file a civil lawsuit about anything, but that doesn't mean it "has legs", will meet with judicial approval. And that this lawyer has convincingly demonstrated, in a different context, via a 2015 guilty plea that he cares more about lining his own pockets than about consumers' best interests:
http://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/hendersonville/2015/03/11/hendersonville-guilty-bogus-drug-manufacturing-importing/70161996/
 
Pyramid|1461406343|4022701 said:
I would prefer VS1 to SI1. I think it gives an all over better quality. We used to hear that we should pick a
balanced stone meaning that all C's are a balance. I would like one of the appraisers to come here and say
that a VS1 is not required? Yes it is not required but then why not get an J SI1 because with this way of
thought that is just as good as a G SI1. If the VS1 is overkill then so is the G surely.
Click to expand...

Probably because if a stone is eye clean, then why pay for something you can't see? There is a difference in a G and J color. That said, if the wearer cannot see a difference in those two colors, then it could be seen as a waste to go to G color as well. Personally, I'd do a H/I, eye clean SI1. :))
 
Pyramid|1461406857|4022702 said:
I wonder if there is a change of shift with diamond buying that people are going for size so lower quality. Either
this or there is less money being put into diamonds now instead of other things and people just go for look to
the naked eye and rarity is no longer valued. Everyone on here used to try to get good quality and then stretch
to get a 1 carat and most people did not and this was even with the ideal cut. We saw people buying like F VS1 0.89 or
D VS1 0.73. Now everyone has to have size. This was even before old cut diamonds were being bought, it was
all round brilliant cut on pricescope then. If SI1 etc is the thing, why did the dealers on here not promote large
diamonds of lower color and clarity back then? There again where I live (uk) there is not many people that interested
in diamonds and once they marry they just wear the plain gold band and leave of the engagement ring.


I have just been told that the 2011 diamond increases saw people going for lower colour and larger stones, is this
true, was that the reason?
Click to expand...

Pyramid, you post this same song and dance every. single. time. :wall: Seriously, enough already. You buy what you like, and please don't devalue what others have. Thanks. :halo:
 
In 1939, The De Beers Group of Companies recognised the importance to verify diamonds and bring an understanding to their unique traits. With this, the 4Cs were introduced each of the 4C’s describes a diamonds specific characteristics – Carat, Colour, Clarity and Cut were named as the industry measures. It is a balance of all four of these characteristics that denote the diamond’s value and rarity.

(From the De Beers site)


Not just my opinion.
 
Pyramid|1461445088|4022866 said:
In 1939, The De Beers Group of Companies recognised the importance to verify diamonds and bring an understanding to their unique traits. With this, the 4Cs were introduced each of the 4C’s describes a diamonds specific characteristics – Carat, Colour, Clarity and Cut were named as the industry measures. It is a balance of all four of these characteristics that denote the diamond’s value and rarity.

(From the De Beers site)


Not just my opinion.
Click to expand...

That's fine, but some may not feel the need to pay (unnecessarily) for such "rarity" that their eyes cannot perceive... and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. There are many members (myself included) who do not have D-F/VS stones, and they wouldn't have it any other way...

Please do not continually disparage them as "low quality" stones purchased under the assumption that they must have been chosen in order to get a bigger stone or they were "cheaping out." It's not what you posted, it's the constant poo-pooing of anything less than colorless/VS... :boohoo: You don't see people posting that they think you're an idiot or foolish for wasting money on what you like or that they'd assume it was a CZ if it weren't so darned small, do you? No. You do not.

Some people prefer the look of H to D color and don't see the need to pay for clarity that has to be determined under a microscope... imagine that??!!
 
Let the OP buy his VS1 then and don't poo poo it. As a poster said, choose your diamond 'per Gypsy's outline', well the
original poster had a different choice but as usual here it was poo pooed. The people who have other choices. Oher choices other
than those held by the majority of posters on this board who don't allow the minority of posters to have their choice. Oh and maybe quality was the wrong word I used as I see de beers calls it Value. So if people believe what is touted on here they are not getting
the best Value which is what this board is SUPPOSED to be about.

You can see colour from the side and not upside down either. Most qualified jewellers will recommend no lower than H VS2 - SI1.
This board and it's posters are just different.
 
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