Need Urgent Advice re Cushion Diamond Purchase Pics Attached

[Jon187]

Hi,

I'm somewhat new to this website but have been scouring the forum posts and have found some really useful information - so thank you guys for that. I'd like your advice/input on the following: I have been looking at at cushion cut diamond being offered to me by a family friend who is a diamond dealer, so I generally trust him. I am looking for more of a chunky non-modified cushion that is rectangular in shape (1.15-1.23 L/W). I also read about the different facet patterns and the effect they have on appearance. This particular cushion is rated by EGL (I know about the very lax grading and deficiencies compared to GIA and am taking that into account) and has the following specs:
2.57 ct / E / VS1 / Very Good polish and symmetry. Depth of 70.3 and table of 68 and L/W around 1.18. Based on having seen the diamond in person and comparing it with other GIA rated cushions, I would say the color is closer to an H (maybe a G). The diamond does not have that crushed ice look, although im not sure its facet pattern classifies as "chunky/antique." So my questions are:

1. Have you seen this facet pattern before (I have not seen it on any diagrams posted) and what are your thoughts on it? Are there any troubling aspects to it?

2. What do you think of the diamond both generally in the picture and the specs. In person, it looks very eye-clean clarity-wise and I like that the larger table gives it a rectangular, almost emerald-shape. I am concerned, however, by the fact that it is EGL rated and may not be the highest color and whether the facet structure will take away from brilliance. As a sidenote, I am unable to get an ASET on it.

Any advice/insight is highly appreciated!

Jon

 

[Enerchi]

Re: Need Urgent Advice re Cushion Diamond Purchase Pics Atta

Hi Jon, just posted this link on another thread:
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/cushion-cut-diamond May have some useful info for you re: cushion cuts.

As for the friend with a good deal thing.... uh oh!!! Be VERY CAREFUL with that... we read so many times how these situations often do not go well... just sayin'!

And ALWAYS go GIA or AGS for modern cuts.

Trust your own eyes first in terms of colour and light performance, but do look at alternate options (use the PS search engine above ^^^) to get some comparables.

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Need Urgent Advice re Cushion Diamond Purchase Pics Atta

As for "friend" jewelers. Everyone has a 'friend" jeweler. And everyone who refers people to them 'thinks' they got a 'great deal' ... truth is most of them got ripped off, or just paid what they should have. Most people are ignorant about diamonds, prices, etc and don't do enough research to actually know what a good jeweler is, what what a bad one isn't. As long as the 'friend' jeweler is nice to them and TELLS THEM they got a good deal and backs it up with a bogus inflated 'appraisal' document, they think they got a deal. We get people here all the time crying and unhappy about what they ended up with from their 'friend' jeweler.

Working with 'friend' jeweler guidelines: ANYTHING they offer you should have a GIA or AGS certificate. Nothing that is uncertified is a 'deal'... and you should have at least 2 days to double check pricing and other details and compare to make sure you are getting a deal before you buy. They should hold the diamond AT LEAST that long for you. Anyone who says that you HAVE to make an IMMEDIATE decision is trying to scam you-- don't listen to their excuses "I have 2 other people interested in this, but I want YOU to have it" ... all lies. AND YOU SHOULD HAVE AT LEAST A TWO WEEK RETURN (not exchange) POLICY, NO QUESTIONS ASKED. Okay?

 

[Jon187]

Re: Need Urgent Advice re Cushion Diamond Purchase Pics Atta

Thanks guys - appreciate the quick responses. I'm not having any pressure whatsoever from this person nor do I think it is some great deal. I'm just interested in the particular diamond itself. I was shown plenty more by this person, many with GIA ratings too. I'm not worried about getting pressured or suckered into a sale - I'm looking at other diamond sellers as well. The urgency is only related to my only personal timeline.

Any thoughts on the specs/facet pattern/appearance. I don't think I've ever seen a similar fact pattern and not sure what to make of it.

Thanks!

 

[GirlyGirl]

Re: Need Urgent Advice re Cushion Diamond Purchase Pics Atta

I would pass without an ASET. It is a huge investment. You need to be sure this diamond performs well.

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Need Urgent Advice re Cushion Diamond Purchase Pics Atta

Unless I'm mistaken faceting is a modified radiant pavilion with cushion crown.

Radiant facet diagram.


This might be interesting reading for you: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/whats-the-difference-between-cushion-and-radiant.147643/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/whats-the-difference-between-cushion-and-radiant.147643/[/URL]

 

[Jon187]

Re: Need Urgent Advice re Cushion Diamond Purchase Pics Atta

Thanks Gypsy! It appears this is some kind of cushion/radiant hybrid, which is weird. What is interesting and what appealed to me is how it actually appeared to have larger facets, so you can see more into the diamond, as opposed to that crushed-ice modified look. A couple different diamond people I spoke with say that ASETS are generally only done for rounds or princess and they never do ASETS for cushions.

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Need Urgent Advice re Cushion Diamond Purchase Pics Atta

Thanks Gypsy! It appears this is some kind of cushion/radiant hybrid, which is weird. What is interesting and what appealed to me is how it actually appeared to have larger facets, so you can see more into the diamond, as opposed to that crushed-ice modified look. A couple different diamond people I spoke with say that ASETS are generally only done for rounds or princess and they never do ASETS for cushions.

Wrong. Idealscope for rounds. ASETs for all else.

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Need Urgent Advice re Cushion Diamond Purchase Pics Atta

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/why-we-prefer-aset-to-ideal-scope-with-fancy-shapes.73949/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/why-we-prefer-aset-to-ideal-scope-with-fancy-shapes.73949/[/URL]

There is a great old cushion thread, I'll have to try to find it. It will take a while unless Charmy knows the link and is around and can link you. Cehrabera started that thread, I just didn't find it when I did a quick search so it will take some time.

 

[Haven]

Re: Need Urgent Advice re Cushion Diamond Purchase Pics Atta

How many cushions have you examined in-person?

I wouldn't call this a chunky cushion. It looks modern to me.

 

[Jon187]

Re: Need Urgent Advice re Cushion Diamond Purchase Pics Atta

I'd say 10-20. And you are right - I don't think it's that classic chunky AVC-style cushion, but I liked that it didn't have the crushed-ice dispersion look where you can't really see what is going on in the diamond. Here, you can sort of see into it and see the symmetry of the facet cuts. It's hard to find real antique-style cushions that are rectangular in shape and have larger tables - I happen to like a larger table. How large would you say is too large? Is it true that table and depth should roughly be near each other to create better brilliance?

Thanks!

 

[mandasand]

Re: Need Urgent Advice re Cushion Diamond Purchase Pics Atta

It looks like a modern cushion to me.

I'm a little bothered that you told your "friend" that you wanted an antique-cut/faceted stone and he gave you a modern cut. These chunky diamonds are not super easy to come across. You need to use someone that specializes in them. Since you aren't looking for a "deal," I would suggest you contact a vendor that specializes in antique cushions like Engagement Rings Direct or Good Old Gold.

 

[Jon187]

Re: Need Urgent Advice re Cushion Diamond Purchase Pics Atta

Thanks - actually, I wasn't sure what sort of cushion I was interested in at first until I was able to view a couple and I decided I liked the simpler visual aspect and deeper cuts of the cushions that didn't exhibit the "crushed-ice" look. My friend showed me a bunch of different cushions and I noted to him that I liked the look and shape of the one I posted.

So, based on the fact that I'm not looking for a cushion with a square cut, small table or large culet, some of the real "traditional" antique cuts may not be best for me. Perhaps there is a chunkier cut cushion with more of the modern proportions - larger table, small or no culet, bigger l/w ratios.

 

[molonsm]

Re: Need Urgent Advice re Cushion Diamond Purchase Pics Atta

Hi Jon,

I am looking for a cushion but only just starting out. Do you mind if I ask you ballpark what a 2.5 cushion with that spec would cost going through a friend who has connections?

I would never dream of asking someone face to face about costs but as we'll never meet each other I'm hoping you'll give me some insight as I'm thinking of going through the same type of channel.

Thank you!

 

[Haven]

Re: Need Urgent Advice re Cushion Diamond Purchase Pics Atta

So much of purchasing a cushion is about what appeals to your eye. I have no idea what size table is too large, I imagine it would depend on the specific cushion. I love old cuts, so for me the smaller the table the better. But that's just me!

If you're seriously considering purchasing this cushion, I would share how much it's going to cost you with PS so you can get some feedback about the cost. I'd also spend more time looking at other cushions. Now it sounds like you've narrowed your desires to:
- Larger table
- Elongated shape
- Modern, clear faceting

I'd ask a couple jewelers to bring in a few stones that match your criteria so you can make some comparisons based on your updated desires. I only recommend this because I know how easy it is to fall in love with a cushion you see in-person, and the only way to really make an informed choice with your eyes is to see a number of comparable cushions.

FWIW, pictures are really hard to use to judge stones. The picture you shared of this cushion makes it look a bit watery and it's not that appealing to my eye, but again, it's too hard to really judge from just a picture.

Have fun with this purchase, and don't rush! Take your time, view a lot of stones, and remember that this is a LARGE purchase--there is nothing wrong with asking jewelers to keep on working to find the right stone for you. Don't settle.

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Need Urgent Advice re Cushion Diamond Purchase Pics Atta

Larger table is a strange request. Large tables mean less fire, which is a negative. And the 'larger tables make the diamond look bigger' thing is an incomplete thing. What makes a diamond look bigger is light return and performance-- edge to edge brilliance is what makes a diamond look bigger. A poorly performing stone will look smaller. I would educate yourself some more about that. In smaller sized diamonds (under 10 points a larger table can be okay) but in larger sizes and ESPECIALLY with fancy shapes a larger table usually means a lower crown height and less fire and scintillation -- less 'life' in the diamond. https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-table-size

To help you find what you want, what is your budget for the STONE and what is your size preference as well as color and clarity.

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Need Urgent Advice re Cushion Diamond Purchase Pics Atta

Cushion thread I was talking about earlier: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/cushion-cuts-under-aset-scope-is-it-me-or-the-diamonds.170098/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/cushion-cuts-under-aset-scope-is-it-me-or-the-diamonds.170098/[/URL] and here is an article that might help you: https://www.pricescope.com/journal/new_gia_and_agsl_naming_conventions_cushion_cut_diamonds

 

[Jon187]

Re: Need Urgent Advice re Cushion Diamond Purchase Pics Atta

Thank you for all this insight - you guys are terrific and it is very reassuring having some form of feedback, no matter what it may be. So let me try to respond to some of the questions posed and hope for continued answers.

As for cost - I posted the specs (and remember it is EGL - not EGL USA) so take that into consideration - it is 30K. It is certainly eyeclean and looked very good under a loupe so I have no issues with clarity. However, the color is definitely not an E - I'd say closer to a an H maybe. This is one thing I picked up on when the stone was sitting next to a legit GIA E.

As for the larger table - i think it just gives it a bit more of a rectangular as opposed to oval shape, since the table is always going to be square/rectangular and will have a bit more prominence if it is a larger proportion. In effect, it reminds me a bit more of a emerald (which i love the shape of) but has the brilliance and faceting of a cushion.

As for what I'm looking for - 30K is around the top of my price range; I def want a rectangle (at least 1.17 L/W) and not a square shaped cushion; and i like larger faceting for more fire and less pinfire sparkle. Whether it is classified as a true antique or modified does not matter - I just do not enjoy the crushed ice look (and I know from these forums that not all modifieds fall into that category). Other specs would be a color grade not below G, clarity VS2 or above (unless a very eyeclean SI1) and good table/depth ratios. For size, I'd like to stay at a minimum in the mid-2 carat range.

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Need Urgent Advice re Cushion Diamond Purchase Pics Atta

What did you lady ask for?

Cushion?
Emerald Cut?
Radiant?
Antique Cushion?

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Need Urgent Advice re Cushion Diamond Purchase Pics Atta

I'd put this one on hold and ask for an ASET. http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/G-VS1-Ideal-Cut-Cushion-Diamond-1495136.asp

This one is a maybe. Hold and ASET are free so you can ask for it too if you like it. http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/G-VVS1-Good-Cut-Cushion-Diamond-863297.asp

This one fits your specs but might have a bowtie and it's a four main faceting that I'm, personally not too fond of. http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/G-VS1-Ideal-Cut-Cushion-Diamond-1397949.asp

But since JA allows 3 diamonds for hold/ASET/evaluation-- that's the three that fit your criteria best from them.

ERD had nothing with a >1.17 ratio.

The only one that GOG has that's 1.17 ratio, H or better is crushed ice so... not a possibility.

So... best bet is the three from JA I posted

 

[Jon187]

Re: Need Urgent Advice re Cushion Diamond Purchase Pics Atta

Thanks, Gypsy. I do like the first two you linked me to.

As an update - I went to see some other stones today. I went to the offices of Leo Schachter through a family connection to his daughter (and I am not expecting any sort of discount or special treatment - I only mention this so you have context as to why I chose to go there as to any other diamond place in NYC) and ended up seeing what would be considered a true "antique" non-modifed cushion that I liked. Unfortunately, I don't have any pics or an ASET and I know specs are somewhat worthless when it comes to cushions, but I figured I'd post them, since I may be leaning toward this one.

GIA: Cushion Brilliant
2.40 carat 9.79 x 7.28 x 4.81 (1.2 L/W). Facet structure is the classic 8 full center to crown facet plot that is associated with the "chunky" picture often circulated on the links you guys sent.
Color: G
Clarity: VS2 - very eye clean - hard to notice anything under the loupe
Polish/Symmetry: Very Good/Good
Table: 58
Depth: 66
Medium culet (not really too eye visible)

Anything stand out (I guess in a bad way) about these specs - again sorry I can't provide a pic. I would have liked a better symmetry grade but I'm not sure how worried I should be about this. The GIA cert does make me more comfortable than an EGL. The diamond seemed to have very nice brilliance/fire.

Any thoughts on Leo Schachter generally - I know about the Leo diamond thing.

Thanks!

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Need Urgent Advice re Cushion Diamond Purchase Pics Atta

For what it's worth (not much without pictures, as you know). I like the specs. 8 main plot, enough depth for performance but still shallow enough for nice spread. 2.4 carats nice dimensions. Small table, medium culet. Not sure about the symmetry (facet alignment, not optical symmetry is what that value evaluates) so I would ask them why it only gets a "good" for that and see what they say.

I have no opinion of Leo S. GIA is MUCH better than EGL. Overall, I like it better.

If it captured your eye and you are liking it's performance in person I would buy it as long as there is a good return policy, take it to David Wolfe for appraisal and see how you feel about it and what he says.

 

[ariel144]

Re: Need Urgent Advice re Cushion Diamond Purchase Pics Atta

Thanks, Gypsy. I do like the first two you linked me to.

As an update - I went to see some other stones today. I went to the offices of Leo Schachter through a family connection to his daughter (and I am not expecting any sort of discount or special treatment - I only mention this so you have context as to why I chose to go there as to any other diamond place in NYC) and ended up seeing what would be considered a true "antique" non-modifed cushion that I liked. Unfortunately, I don't have any pics or an ASET and I know specs are somewhat worthless when it comes to cushions, but I figured I'd post them, since I may be leaning toward this one.

GIA: Cushion Brilliant
2.40 carat 9.79 x 7.28 x 4.81 (1.2 L/W). Facet structure is the classic 8 full center to crown facet plot that is associated with the "chunky" picture often circulated on the links you guys sent.
Color: G
Clarity: VS2 - very eye clean - hard to notice anything under the loupe
Polish/Symmetry: Very Good/Good
Table: 58
Depth: 66
Medium culet (not really too eye visible)

Anything stand out (I guess in a bad way) about these specs - again sorry I can't provide a pic. I would have liked a better symmetry grade but I'm not sure how worried I should be about this. The GIA cert does make me more comfortable than an EGL. The diamond seemed to have very nice brilliance/fire.

Any thoughts on Leo Schachter generally - I know about the Leo diamond thing.

Thanks!

When trying to find an "antique" chunky cushion the parameters of this stone look very good and are like finding a needle in a haystack. 8 main CUSHION BRILLIANT, depth mid 60%... table mid 50% or smaller. That stone faces up really large. If you like the performance and the elongated shape then I would definitely purchase it. Sounds like you found a winner to me. They just aren't cutting too many CUSHION BRILLIANTS any more. I'm excited for you. Sounds lovely. I wouldn't worry about the "good" on the symmetry...there are Old Mine cuts that get good/fair but are beautiful performers. ON one older video by GOG Jon stated that the difference in EX to VG symmetry was very small when it comes to grading diamonds.

I would compare the stone you found to this stone on JA which I love the faceting but wouldn't want to pay the extra for the VVS2 clarity...the grading report is wrong (IMO) as it states it is a modified cushion brilliant but the 8 main facet structure picture on the report and faceting of the actual stone say something different (cushion brilliant IMO):

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/G-VVS2-Very-Good-Cut-Cushion-Diamond-1511028.asp

But your stone is a whole 2mm longer and will face up larger and is most likely cheaper with the vs2 clarity. If you love it in person then it sounds like you found "your" stone. Can't wait to see the pics.

 

[Jon187]

Re: Need Urgent Advice re Cushion Diamond Purchase Pics Atta

Thanks Gypsy and Ariel. Reviewing my post, I actually realized somewhat of a significant typo. It is 8.79 (not 9.79) x 7.28 x 4.81 which gives a L/W of 1.20. If it were 9.79 it would be a 1.34 l/w ratio, which I guess would be kind of crazy. Nevertheless, I am leaning towards this one bc it just seemed to have more fire/sparkle than the EGL and without comparing them side-by-side, I'd say better color. The only thing I arguably slightly like more about the EGL stone is the emerald-like shape (I know, I know).

On further news, I sent Mark T an email hoping to just see what he had to view since I'm close, but have yet to hear back.

Assuming I go with this stone, I would love your advice on a setting. Here are my parameters - I'd like a pave band, not too thick, dainty while being proportional, that is not channel-set and which reduces any visible metal as much as possible (mushroom style pave?), and an HW style setting (with the shoulders and 4 prongs) but without a halo. I know halos are very popular now and I find them to be pretty but I know she doesn't want halo and I'd like the center focus only to be the cushion. As such, I didn't want any kind of pillow or embedded settingthat would hide some of its great crown angles.

Ariel - that ring is very lovely, and I agree on the facet structure - definitely my cup of tea. It's a bit more square than I prefer and the culet may be a little large for me (I know some people love it, and i don't mind if its small-medium, but I don't prefer large ones).

As soon as this thing gets finalized, I will surely post the pics!