Need help! GIA XXX with HCA of 3.7

[Rockdiamond]

The chart posted above has no place in a discussion about HCA stores, or diamonds with a GIA EX cut grade. You're not going to see stones graded EX Cut grade by GIA that look anything like the stones on the right side of the chart.
It's simply inaccurate- and misleading to say a stone scoring 3.7 is worse than a stone scoring 1 when it comes to cut.
If someone has looked at different stones and knows what the HCA looks for, then it can be a useful tool.
BUT, some people will pick a stone that scores 3.7 over one that scores 1 based on aspects which HCA can not distinguish.
Things like LGF.
scarletbird, what this means is how wide the shafts are when you see the arrows pattern in the diamond.The higher the LGF%, the more narrow the shafts will be.
Narrower shafts will not produce a distinct H&A pattern.
Some people prefer a distinct H&A pattern, others a more disorganized type of sparkle.

Some people will prefer more contrast ( rewarded in HCA) while others prefer more scintillation( dinged by HCA)
GIA does not punish stones for things HCA does- yet we're talking about preference.
For this reason, GIA EX cut grade means more than HCA to noobies who are actually looking at diamonds- period.
scarletbird - if you can get to places that carry diamonds and have a look for yourself, it will be helpful.
Its a major league purchase and worth your time.

While I agree that this is perhaps good advice for some people, the OP has already stated that his girlfriends values the optics provided by a hearts and arrows stone, so I'm not sure that it's the best advice in THIS case. If OP values HA then I would suggest working with a vendor that specializes in HA cuts and can help him find a stone that will both perform well and exhibit the optical symmetry his girlfriend prefers.

Great point Christina
I did not notice the OP asked for H&A optics
Visual inspection, photos are going to be needed to make sure you're getting the look you want

 

[Christina...]

Gosh, I'm a bit embarrassed. I apologize if my post came across as rude in any way. I didn't intend for it to. I guess that's what can happen when kids demand attention immediately!!! Sorry RD! I think you know had the OP not stated he was interested in HA I would have completely agreed with you about about the different personalities of different cuts and the importance of determining what your eyes visually prefer.

 

[Lula]

Here's the thread I was referring to about 35/41 crown/pavilion combinations https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/41-degree-pavillion-angle.65301/.

OP, H&A symmetry needs to be assessed with an H&A viewer, not the diamond's HCA score or its IS image.

 

[Christina...]

OP, I absolutely agree with Lula regarding the need for additional assurances from the vendor that you are indeed purchasing a HA stone, (if that is the direction you go in). There currently is no standard as to what can be called Hearts and Arrows, and different manufacturers have different criteria as to what is/isn't HA, some are more stringent than others. As you may already know, most well cut diamonds will exhibit HA patterning when viewed through a viewer, however that alone is not enough for them to truly be considered HA, nor should you pay a premium for this, unless the vendor can provide proof that the stone is in fact HA and you've already mentioned that this particular vendor can't offer you additional information....which essentially means that he's asking you to take his work for it..... That would NOT be good enough for me.

Here is some additional information on HA.
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/hearts-and-arrows-diamonds
http://www.whiteflash.com/about-diamonds/diamond-education/visible-perfection-hearts-and.htm
http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/Shape/RoundHeartsAndArrows/
http://www.whiteflash.com/about-diamonds/diamond-education/beware-of-phony-hearts-and.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC4-hIhRoo4&feature=youtu.be


It may be that your girlfriend doesn't completely understand the concept of HA and how it relates/or doesn't, to a stones beauty and performance. Perhaps she only means when she asks for HA is that she wants a beautifully performing stone. There is a popular misconception that HA defines the beauty and performance of a diamond, IMO that isn't true, however there are people that will argue that they are superior. It really depends on what YOU/SHE value and if you are willing to pay the premium for something you may/may not visually appreciate.

 

[scarletbird]

Hi All:

thx again 4 the healthy dialog and advice.
2 put it simply I am kinda stumped. this makes me realize i am really in an unknown territory - I am going to look at some of the recommendations listed here and c if I can afford any.
I know she wants a H&A but obviously not compromising on light performance. Shud I start looking at Hearts on Fire also - i know they call it the most perfect diamond - also probably priced 2 steep!

 

[Christina...]

Hearts on Fire is a nice stone, but yes, you will likely pay a large premium for it. There are several online vendors that have signature cut HA that also have superior light performance. I can't remember if you shared your budget, but if you'd like to, we can help you find a fabulous stone.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Gosh, I'm a bit embarrassed. I apologize if my post came across as rude in any way. I didn't intend for it to. I guess that's what can happen when kids demand attention immediately!!! Sorry RD! I think you know had the OP not stated he was interested in HA I would have completely agreed with you about about the different personalities of different cuts and the importance of determining what your eyes visually prefer.

Hi Christina,
I did not take it that way at all!
I did not think it came across as rude, and in fact I'm glad for the correction.

scarletbird - I am curious- is the desire for H&A based on diamonds she has seen- or is there any possibility it's an impression that such stones are better?
I think you're in the right place to get great advice either way - the consumers posting here are more knowledgeable than many jewelers. I'm not trying to dissuade you in any way- just curiosity.

 

[Christina...]

Gosh, I'm a bit embarrassed. I apologize if my post came across as rude in any way. I didn't intend for it to. I guess that's what can happen when kids demand attention immediately!!! Sorry RD! I think you know had the OP not stated he was interested in HA I would have completely agreed with you about about the different personalities of different cuts and the importance of determining what your eyes visually prefer.

Hi Christina,
I did not take it that way at all!
I did not think it came across as rude, and in fact I'm glad for the correction.

scarletbird - I am curious- is the desire for H&A based on diamonds she has seen- or is there any possibility it's an impression that such stones are better?
I think you're in the right place to get great advice either way - the consumers posting here are more knowledgeable than many jewelers. I'm not trying to dissuade you in any way- just curiosity.

I saw your name pop up, and I hoped that you would see my response, I'm relieved, thank you!

I'm interesting in hearing as well, if your g/f has had the opportunity to compare a near HA stone with a HA stone.

 

[scarletbird]

its because she has seen Hearts on Fire!

 

[Christina...]

its because she has seen Hearts on Fire!

Tricky situation! What HOF does very well is sell their brand. They do a great job of convincing people that their product is superior to all others...similar to how some people perceive Tiffany or Harry Winston. The truth is that there are many other products available that are equal, and even surpass those brands. What's difficult is convincing people of that. At one time I would have loved to have owned a Tiffany diamond...but, knowing what I know now and having more knowledge now of what makes a diamond beautiful, I would never pay the premium for a product that I know is inferior. That isn't to say that HOF isn't a beautiful stone, it's just that I think there are equally beautiful or more beautiful diamonds available. ACA from White Flash, or a signature HA from BGD, GOG HA, are just a few that come to mind.

That said though, if your g/f can't or won't be convinced and has her heart set on a branded HOF stone, then maybe you should consider biting the bullet and paying the premium for it because it's what will make HER happy.

 

[Christina...]

come to think of it, let me find a thread to prove my point to you....give me a second to find it....

 

[Christina...]

found it!

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-wifes-h-a-stones-vs-hof-stones.187789/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-wifes-h-a-stones-vs-hof-stones.187789/[/URL]

 

[scarletbird]

Hi Christina:

Thx 4 the link - she is not set on HOF; just something similar - that's y i thought i wud go the XXX route and get more dia for my $
namely gr8 light performance + H&A
I do NOT want 2 make a rong choice - really glad i posted here and get experts opinion.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Cool!

Scarlet- just one aspect I really feel the need to carify:
You're using the term "performance" in a way that is not accurate.
To use an analogy:
A Ferrari performs better than a Ford ( unless we're talking about the GT40 but that's a different story
You put them both on the starting line and one car blows the other away.
Light performance of an H&A stone is different than a non H&A stone - not better.

By all means buy what you want- but I think it's important to illustrate this distinction so you don't overspend needlessly.

 

[Christina...]

Hi Christina:

Thx 4 the link - she is not set on HOF; just something similar - that's y i thought i wud go the XXX route and get more dia for my $
namely gr8 light performance + H&A
I do NOT want 2 make a rong choice - really glad i posted here and get experts opinion.

Just for clarity, I'm not an expert by any means, just an enthusiast. The experts here can be recognized by the 'trades' badge like you see in RD's posts.

Ok, so if your not determined to purchase a HoF stone, but would like to consider some HA stones, we could help make some suggestions for you. I assume that you are interested in purchasing online with a reputable vendor? Would you like to share you budget and criteria with us? Color, clarity, carat weight? I'm sure that we can find something that will completely WOW her!

 

[scarletbird]

yes please - I need all the help I can get 2 make the rite choice n not goof up. thx a million in advance

Budget - 35 to 40k
carat - 3 preferred ( guess will settle 4 lower if need b)
color - def
clarity - si1/2 ( but eye clean & no structural issues like PSI)
Cut - Round Brilliant AGS 000 r GIA xxx
fl - strong ok if not milky r chalky
Hearts & Arrows - yes
HCA - less than 2 preferred ( lesson learned from this post)
Would like 2 go with online vendor 2 get max dia 4 the $ spent

pls let me know if there is other criteria i shud add 2 get a "knockout" stone!

wondering also if there are some table, depth and crown and pav angles that i shud narrow search by - all advice is gr8ly appreciated.

 

[Rockdiamond]

yes please - I need all the help I can get 2 make the rite choice n not goof up. thx a million in advance

Budget - 35 to 40k
carat - 3 preferred ( guess will settle 4 lower if need b)
color - def
clarity - si1/2 ( but eye clean & no structural issues like PSI)
Cut - Round Brilliant AGS 000 r GIA xxx
fl - strong ok if not milky r chalky
Hearts & Arrows - yes
HCA - less than 2 preferred ( lesson learned from this post)
Would like 2 go with online vendor 2 get max dia 4 the $ spent

pls let me know if there is other criteria i shud add 2 get a "knockout" stone!

wondering also if there are some table, depth and crown and pav angles that i shud narrow search by - all advice is gr8ly appreciated.

I'm just trying to figure out if I'm missing something- didn't we say just the opposite here?
HCA is neither a H&A indicator, and not a necessity if you're looking at GIA EX or AGSL 0 Cut grade stones necessarily.
IMO by using this as a parameter, you may exclude some great candidates- and end up paying more, or getting smaller stone for the budget....

 

[Christina...]

Scarletbird, AGS0 stones don't need to be run through the HCA because they have already been evaluated for light performance. AGS is the only lab that measures a stone for light performance. It's my opinion though, and RD and I may separate here a bit, that GIA's criteria for EX cut, is too broad and therefore should be run through the HCA OR additional images provided. I'm trying to decide how to word this as to not cause confusion... ...here it goes. I don't really believe that any GIA EX stone will be a dog, I do however believe that some will be better than others regardless of what type of light performance you prefer. GIA also rounds and averages it's proportions, so trying determine it's likely character, or predict light performance by the report is difficult.

HCA isn't fool proof, it should not be used to select a stone, it's simply a tool to help narrow down endless online options. There are many cases where you will run an AGS0 stone through HCA and it will come back below a 2...obviously this happens with GIA EX stones as well, the difference is that AGS, as mentioned above has already determined the stones LP, whereas GIA has not. HCA also favors a certain type of LP, it dings stones with pav angles above 41 and awards shallower (below 40.6) pav angles. It also assumes things about the stone that may be inaccurate, for instance it assumes the diamond is symmetrical and has a medium girdle. Obviously this may not be the case.

HA is optical symmetry, it has nothing to do with the symmetry listed on the grading report. The report grades physical symmetry, the facet meet points, if the table is off center, if the culet is off center, if it has a wavy girdle, etc. This is very different from optical symmetry. There has been a long ongoing debate whether or not there is a visible difference between a near HA stone (think AGS0) and a super ideal HA stone. It's my opinion that there is no visual benefit, I could not look at the two side by side and conclude that there is indeed a difference. What I believe though, is that there is a mind clean benefit from owning a HA stone, and I think that this might be where your gf is. That isn't to say that she is wrong, just like all of the people who argue that HA is superior, aren't wrong, I, and many others, just disagree.

Anyway, I'll take a look and see what I can find in the 3ct range within your budget that ARE true HA stones. This may not be the easiest search as many vendors of in-house diamonds don't have a large selection of colorless super ideal cut stones. But I'll see what I can come up with. She's a lucky girl!!!!

 

[Christina...]

I just lost my entire list! Argh!!

Ok, this isn't going to be an easy search but here are a few options...
BGD...slightly smaller than 3 ct though you can save thousands by finding a stone just under the 3ct mark. It's also important to look at the stones dimensions instead of it's ct weight. It's possible to find a 3ct stone that faces up smaller than a 2.8.

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/2.835-h-si1-round-diamond-ags-104065335001
the above stone is an H, but that is a very respectable color grade. Color is more apparent in larger stones, however, a well cut stone will look whiter and brighter than a poorly cut stone.

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/2.801-i-si1-round-diamond-ags-104063703005

This one is a good example of how beautiful a near HA stone can be.
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/11149/

smaller than you wanted..
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/11004/

I didn't find anything available from WF, though I think any of these vendors would be worth contacting, they can usually work with you to locate a stone and then bring it in for a gemological assessment and additional images.

I'll check a couple of more vendors for you.

 

[Lula]

I admire your search skills, Christina!

Both the BGD diamonds are very nice. I think the H color is the safer option, and worth the extra money.

Holy smokes, though, that first GOG stone is $75,000!

 

[Christina...]

I admire your search skills, Christina!

Both the BGD diamonds are very nice. I think the H color is the safer option, and worth the extra money.

Holy smokes, though, that first GOG stone is $75,000!

Yikes! I didn't even attempt to put it in my cart! Guess I should have. lol The BDG H is officially my dream stone!!

 

[Rockdiamond]

snip.... It's my opinion though, and RD and I may separate here a bit, that GIA's criteria for EX cut, is too broad and therefore should be run through the HCA OR additional images provided.... snip....

Actually we're still in total agreement Christina. GIA's EX cut grade is quite broad- therefore visual inspection ( best) or photograph inspection (can be very good...or not) is needed to make sure the stone has the look which the buyer desires.
We could also make the same statement about an AGS0.
Not necessarily for reasons of cut quality- more having to do with the way the diamond handles light.

Well, as an avid diamond collector owning several stones north of 2.00 carats, I would like to chime in here. At nearly 3 1/2 carats, this diamond is going to be a stunner because of its size. I have a 2CT that I adore that would probably flunk all the cut and clarity things we are "supposed" to buy into and it is still an amazing stone. For me, the whole cut thing is not such a big deal. It's like asking yourself which is better, the Ferrari or the Maserati? And would you really notice if one went 0-60 in 5 or 0-65 in 5? I also do not believe that you will find many SI-2 that are eye clean, but at 3+ carats, really who cares. I would take a pique or two for that size. And happily. Ever after.

Here I'm going to respectfully disagree. I have indeed seen many butt ugly diamonds in larger sizes.
Kenny posted a chart on the prior page- which I object to in this thread because it does not apply to GIA EX cut grade stones- but if we eliminate that parameter, the chart is a good warning.
I'm sure you've picked lovely stones ice_baby- but rest assured, there are some really bad ones out there.
Sometimes the bigger, the worse. A 3ct stone with a huge table can easily show "the ring of death" and be really bad to look at.
Same for imperfections.
Some people don't mind a small pique at all- but there are others who would absolutely hate a VS2 stone because they might be able to spot a small black carbon spot.
This s, after all, a forum by and for diamond lovers.
Some expert- some just shopping- but there are a fair amount of readers, and participants that have a really good eye for both cut and imperfections.

To use your analogy- comparing two GIA EX cut grade stones might be a Ferrari Maserati comparison.
But comparing a GIA EX and a GIA Fair cut grade can be more like a Panatera versus Pacer compro

 

[scarletbird]

hats off - my sincere thx 2 all for sharing their expertise and knowledge....and helping me in my dia search.
this is amazing discussion and I am so very glad I posted here.
i am trying 2 c if I can get images on the dia, if not gonna 4get it.
I like the BGD H si1 but not happy about the fact its a H...guess now I am getting mor picky than my GF...LOL

 

[Christina...]

We must be on the same wavelength David as I was just getting ready to respond as well.

We all have a certain preferences when it comes to our stone selections. For some it's size, others color/clarity, But it's the diamonds cut that determines light performance, and life of a diamond. And though I believe it's possible to find a needle in a haystack stone, (because I actually own one ) I think it's dangerous to recommend that consumers focus on just one characteristic of a diamond. Size is often a crucial part of the decision making process but it's important to know that the cut of a diamond directly impacts it's performance. A well cut 2ct stone can, and often will, look whiter, brighter, and larger than a poorly cut 2ct stone. If a consumers only focus is on size and the rest of the C's be damned, then you've given good advice. But it's been my experience that most consumers are looking for a balance of all the C's. In the OP's case, his gf appears primarily focused on cut and the optical symmetry of the stone, the fact that the stone will also be large didn't appear to be her requirement (though it may be) but the wish of the OP.

 

[Christina...]

hats off - my sincere thx 2 all for sharing their expertise and knowledge....and helping me in my dia search.
this is amazing discussion and I am so very glad I posted here.
i am trying 2 c if I can get images on the dia, if not gonna 4get it.
I like the BGD H si1 but not happy about the fact its a H...guess now I am getting mor picky than my GF...LOL

Don't get discouraged! scarletbird, have you had an opportunity to compare diamond color side by side? I believe that an H, even at this weight, will still face up nice and white. The only time the body color will be evident is when the stone is viewed from the pavilion (side of the diamond) and most people don't view their diamonds this way.

I think that you should consider this.... if gf wants HA and DEF color, than something else is going to have to give to keep within budge. The only other two areas left for compromise is size and clarity. Do you have any thoughts as to how she would prioritize these? For instance, would she compromise color for size? clarity for true hearts and arrows? Once we can prioritize what is most important to her we can begin to make better recommendations for you.

 

[Christina...]

I would never recommend that you draw conclusions on color based from video, but you may find these images at least helpful. They allow you to see the very minute color difference between an F/G/H from the face up and through the pavilion view.

3.24 H color
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/3.12-carat-h-color-vs1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-126573

3.11 G
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/3.11-carat-g-color-vs1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-145028

3.06 F
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/3.06-carat-f-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-28807

there are lots of caveats to trying to discern color this way, but as I said it at least offers an idea. You can also very clearly see the price increases from one color grade to the next.

RD views thousands of diamonds and has a great eye for color and the different hues. I'm sure that you will find any insight he has in regard to color differences at this weight very helpful.

ETA: many people have found this video helpful as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcmSj8dOLRI

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

The chart posted above has no place in a discussion about HCA stores, or diamonds with a GIA EX cut grade. You're not going to see stones graded EX Cut grade by GIA that look anything like the stones on the right side of the chart.
It's simply inaccurate- and misleading to say a stone scoring 3.7 is worse than a stone scoring 1 when it comes to cut.
If someone has looked at different stones and knows what the HCA looks for, then it can be a useful tool.
BUT, some people will pick a stone that scores 3.7 over one that scores 1 based on aspects which HCA can not distinguish.
Things like LGF.
scarletbird, what this means is how wide the shafts are when you see the arrows pattern in the diamond.The higher the LGF%, the more narrow the shafts will be.
Narrower shafts will not produce a distinct H&A pattern.
Some people prefer a distinct H&A pattern, others a more disorganized type of sparkle.

Some people will prefer more contrast ( rewarded in HCA) while others prefer more scintillation( dinged by HCA)
GIA does not punish stones for things HCA does- yet we're talking about preference.
For this reason, GIA EX cut grade means more than HCA to noobies who are actually looking at diamonds- period.
scarletbird - if you can get to places that carry diamonds and have a look for yourself, it will be helpful.
Its a major league purchase and worth your time.

David your comments are hardly worthy of a response.
For readers, there is only a little real or relevant information in that post.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hi Garry,
Nice to "see" you.
Have you seen stones graded EX cut grade by GIA that look like the three images on the right half of this chart? I do look at a lot of stones graded EX buy GIA, and have not. Could be you see different stones in Australia than we see here in NYC


Regarding my other comment you marked in red:
It has been my experience that certain stones that were cut more for scintillation, as opposed to contrast got dinged by HCA.
I agree HCA works to distinguish a certain type of stone- yet I have seen some very well cut diamonds that scored below 3 on HCA
Of course this is based on my experience- you invented the system.
No offense to HCA intended

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Hi Garry,
Nice to "see" you.
Have you seen stones graded EX cut grade by GIA that look like the three images on the right half of this chart? I do look at a lot of stones graded EX buy GIA, and have not. Could be you see different stones in Australia than we see here in NYC


Regarding my other comment you marked in red:
It has been my experience that certain stones that were cut more for scintillation, as opposed to contrast got dinged by HCA.
I agree HCA works to distinguish a certain type of stone- yet I have seen some very well cut diamonds that scored below 3 on HCA
Of course this is based on my experience- you invented the system.
No offense to HCA intended

Dear David,
You may wish to comment on the personal email I sent you with some stones with very bad ASET images that GIA gave XXX, that also show nice hearts patterns.
The ideal-scope images will also show leakage under the table like the good and fair images in the top row of the IS reference chart.
But for the record - I never have ever said that GIA XXX look like the stone on the right, although is should not be hard to find some VG sym X cuts that do.

There is still a red line not worth commenting on.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Hi Garry,
Nice to "see" you.
Have you seen stones graded EX cut grade by GIA that look like the three images on the right half of this chart? I do look at a lot of stones graded EX buy GIA, and have not. Could be you see different stones in Australia than we see here in NYC

the 3rd in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp94DI3xTA0&feature=youtu.be