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Need Feedback on Emerald vs. Radiant Cut

Discussion in 'RockyTalky' started by Unsure123, Jul 31, 2012.

  1. Unsure123
    Rough_Rock

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    by Unsure123 » Jul 31, 2012
    Hi,

    I've been eyeing the following stones for an engagement ring which would be set in a classic Harry Winston Emerald-cut diamond engagement ring with tapered baguette side stones. http://www.harrywinston.com/store/e...s-2/products/classic-winston-emerald-cut-ring

    Would anyone care to help if the cut/specs are good for the price?

    Stone Cut Dimensions L:W Tbl Dpth Crat Color Clarity Polish Symmetry Flourescence Price
    Radiant Cut 1 7.66 x 6.14 x 4.05 1.25 66 65.9 1.51 G VVS2 VG G N/A $14496
    Radiant Cut 2 6.86 x 6.49 x 4.51 1.05 74 69.5 1.7 I VVS2 VG G Faint $11730
    Emerald Cut 7.24 x 5.64 x 4.03 1.28 74 71.4 1.5 G VS1 VG VG Medium Faint $13,500

    I'm not able to get more info on the crown height, culet etc. But based on these specs, which has the best cut and best price?

    O how do I attach images?
    Thanks guys!
     
  2. UberClaire
    Shiny_Rock

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    by UberClaire » Jul 31, 2012
    You really need more information (preferably pictures) to be able to judge fancy cuts.
    https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/radiant-cut-diamond
    https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/emerald-cut-diamond

    You can look up the cut class of the stones on these web pages. Based solely on the numbers that you gave, the first radiant looks the best (the second radiant and the emerald score far lower in cut class on table and depth percentages).

    Also, radiant cuts and emerald cuts are very different. It might be easier to decide which one you like, and then ask Pricescope to help you find the best stone in your budget.
     
  3. Gypsy
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Gypsy » Jul 31, 2012
    We can't help you without pictures.

    I have seen both radiant and emerald cut diamonds with almost identical basic specs (table, depth, polish and symmetry) where one is a dog, the other is beautiful. It's all in the faceting and how good the cutter was, and that you can only tell with pics or a video.
     
  4. Rockdiamond
    Ideal_Rock
    Trade

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    by Rockdiamond » Jul 31, 2012
    HI All,
    Unsure- who issued the grades you've posted?
    If they are not issued by GIA, that basically negates them.

    Emerald Cuts and Radiant Cuts are actually cousins- although they look quite different the similarities are there.
    For example, both stones share an octagonal outline. This aspect is crucial to the entire picture of how the diamond looks- even more so than Table depth ca/pa measurements.
    For this reason, and other reasons, I strongly advise against using any sort of chart that purports to be able to offer meaningful parameters of cut. These charts do more to mislead and confuse consumers than help them.

    In terms of the ring- emerald cut next to baguette has a different sort of optical symmetry as compared to Radiant next to baguette.
    In the first case, center and side diamonds are step cut- in the second case we're mixing.
    Not that mixing is "bad"- but it's just something to consider.

    I agree with Gypsy that photos and videos are essential if you're not looking in person
     
  5. Unsure123
    Rough_Rock

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    by Unsure123 » Jul 31, 2012
    Hi,

    These specs are based on GIA certificates. :)

    Noted on your opinion regarding the step-cut symmetry of baguettes and emerald cuts. If ever, what would be a good setting for a radiant center stone which would follow somewhat the Harry Winston setting depicted in the link?

    These are the pics of the 1.51 carat Radiant and 1.7 carat radiant Sorry, was only able to take it using an iPhone and can't get a close-up shot.

    _379.jpg
     
  6. Unsure123
    Rough_Rock

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    by Unsure123 » Jul 31, 2012
    Here is the image stone for 1.7 carat radiant cut, VVS2, I color.

    _380.jpg
     
  7. Gypsy
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Gypsy » Jul 31, 2012
    Can you go back with a point and shoot with a good macro?
     
  8. Unsure123
    Rough_Rock

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    by Unsure123 » Aug 1, 2012
    Hi Gypsy,

    Will try to get another pic if possible :) Thanks for the help!
     
  9. Unsure123
    Rough_Rock

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    by Unsure123 » Aug 1, 2012
    Hi Gypsy,

    Will try to get another pic if possible :) Thanks for the help!
     
  10. Rockdiamond
    Ideal_Rock
    Trade

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    by Rockdiamond » Aug 1, 2012
    Settings have everything to do with taste. As does your opinion of the radiant cut.
    Knowing how tough it is, I'd have to say don;t plan on being able to get a really good photo.
    Even then, if you did- what matters most is what you think.
    for example: in my opinion, to make a setting that looks like the one in the link, you'll need to use step cut diamonds. We have mixed step cut and brilliant cut diamonds in the past. But usually we do it with a fancy color center and colorless sides.... One of the things that appealed to me about the setting in the link was the symmetry. That might not look the same if the diamonds did not have the same type of facet pattern
     
  11. Unsure123
    Rough_Rock

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    by Unsure123 » Aug 3, 2012
    Hi All,

    I'll be meeting with some diamond sellers soon and would be interested in checking out radiants and emerald cuts. I was just wondering what's the criteria in looking into these stones. I was browsing some almost same spec'd emerald cuts via this website and I'm quite perplexed on how one would price a stone more expensive even if they have almost the same stats.

    Would anyone give tips on important traits/aspects one should look for emeralds? and for radiants? Any tips? :) Thanks!

    Example is between these two stones attached from James Allen.
    Table: 63
    Depth: 70.5
    L:W 1.26
    Carat: 1.75
    Color: G
    Clarity: VS 1
    Polish: EX
    Sym: VG
    Flour: N/A

    ec_1.jpg
     
  12. Unsure123
    Rough_Rock

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    by Unsure123 » Aug 3, 2012
    Continued...

    Emerald Cut 2
    Table: 57
    Depth: 70.8
    L:W 1.47
    Carat: 1.72
    Color: G
    Clarity: VS 1
    Polish: EX
    Sym: VG
    Flour: N/A

    ec_2.jpg
     
  13. snow12
    Rough_Rock

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    by snow12 » Aug 3, 2012
    the diamond you posted above is only a "very good cut" on the james allen website. I would shoot for an excellent cut diamond since cut is king.

    Look at:

    http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/D-VVS2-Ideal-Cut-Emerald-Diamond-1425789.asp -- you can request ASET images of this and the one below.

    http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/E-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Radiant-Diamond-1398301.asp -- i'm not too familiar with radiant cuts but maybe worth a look or someone could give more insight on this one.

    both of these face up pretty comparably to the stats you have listed
     
  14. UberClaire
    Shiny_Rock

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    by UberClaire » Aug 3, 2012

    I could be wrong, but I don't think that the cut rating on James Allen is as accurate for fancy shapes as it is for round brilliants.
     
  15. Gypsy
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Gypsy » Aug 3, 2012
    That first one is a great looking stone but might be dark right in the center. The second one is probably going to have more darkness on the outside than the other, but I can't tell how much without an ASET or a video (or both). Great thing about JA is that you can put the diamonds on hold and request an ASET image of them. Which will tell us light return. SO ask them for that. Then we can decide if they are good contenders.

    Emerald cuts are hard to shop for from the numbers. Faceting and light return are key and numbers don't tell you enough to be able to judge those things. This thread is the perfect example. From the stats; K color, smaller depth than table you wouldn't think it would be a nice stone. But it's gorgeous: https://www.pricescope.com/forum/rockytalky/aset-photo-of-emerald-i-m-considering-step-cut-lovers-help-t177801.html


    There are a lot of factors that go into pricing diamonds. One of the main factors other than carat weight and lab report and color and clarity is now nice the diamond looks in terms of faceting and light return. Those are harder to quantify. An ugly rock with the same basic stats (G VS, GIA, 1.0 carat) and a good looking stone with the same stats can be priced differently by a vendor.

    But other factors such as overhead: rent, salary, location, services offered with the diamond. Those can affect pricing as well. Use JA as a guide for pricing, and know that a little less expensive or a little cheaper is fine. But any huge pricing differences are red flags. Too cheap and something is wrong with the stone that you can't see. Too expensive and something is wrong with the vendor and you can't see it.

    Just go through the Emerald cuts on James allen and find the ones that look the brightest and post them for us as we can help you.

    Also you can post your budget and I can search for a nice stone for you. But the first one you posted yourself from JA has a nice amount of potential so I think you will be okay finding them then posting for feedback.

    JA will give you ASETs of three stones. So let's find you two more.
     
  16. Gypsy
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Gypsy » Aug 3, 2012
    NO! This is not accurate advice for fancy shapes. Emerald cuts ARE NOT rated for cut quality by ANY LAB. So the JA listed categories of Very Good or Excellent are largely irrelevant as they are based only on the numbers by an in house algorithm and with fancy shapes the numbers cannot predict performance. There are "excellent" dogs and gorgeous "good" diamonds. SNOW, Fancy shapes are not the same as rounds and the advice you are offering is only good for rounds.

    Once more with feeling:
    THERE ARE NO CUT CATEGORIES WITH EMERALD CUTS THAT CAN PREDICT PERFORMANCE. Or with any other shapes except Princesses, rounds, and a very limited number of faceting structures for a few select cushions.

    UberClaire is correct.
     
  17. Unsure123
    Rough_Rock

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    by Unsure123 » Aug 3, 2012
    Thanks for the info Gypsy.

    So basically one should avoid cuts that show too much black facets right?

    My budget is around USD12,000-USD$14,000 MAX. Though I'm pretty sure I would prefer to buy the stone after seeing it in person hence the apprehension with online diamond seller websites especially since these are fancy cuts which have no standard cut grading compared to rounds.

    If I were to be face to face with a few ECs or Radiant Cuts, how could I look into the "faceting" and "light return" without any ASET images from the vendor?
     
  18. Gypsy
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Gypsy » Aug 3, 2012
    Good Old Gold has a lot of videos about emerald cuts where they compare stones side by side. I'd ask someone (I can't as
    I am at work) find them for you and post them so you can train your eye to spot brightness and other attributes you want, and distinguish them from attributes you don't want in person. You can also buy an ASETscope for 55 bucks (hopefully someone can provide you with the link, I only have it on my work computer).

    JA has a 60 day return policy. So you can examine it in person before you commit to keep.

    I will look for you if I have time.

    Is H or better and eyeclean good for you? And did you have a particular size you were hoping for?

    Start a new thread titled: GOG Emerald Cut Video Comparison HELP!

    Then ask for people to post links for you. Also ask them if they can link you to where you can buy an ASET if you want one.
     
  19. Gypsy
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Gypsy » Aug 3, 2012
    Is that budget for the stone alone, or does it include the setting. If the price includes the setting-- do you have an idea what the setting you want costs so I can subtract that out?

    Also, I don't know if the links are still active but if they are, this will help you figure out common problems with step cuts and how to spot/diagnose. I was helping someone with asschers (which are square emerald cuts) but the same issues with faceting etc. apply to Emerald Cuts as well-- so it will help you.

    https://www.pricescope.com/forum/rockytalky/1st-time-buyer-looking-at-asscher-t174506.html

    ETA: Looks like the links are still active. So read that thread and study the images and the comments about them.
     
  20. Unsure123
    Rough_Rock

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    by Unsure123 » Aug 3, 2012
    Thanks will check GoodOldGold videos to get a quick training for my eye hehe

    I am hoping to get a 1.5carat, G, VS1 or clearer stone. Preferably L/W: 1.25 for the setting.

    Thanks a lot for the help Gypsy. Don't need to exert effort in looking for one since I don't reside in the USA and I think having these stones shipped to Asia might be a problem especially with corrupt customs etc. :( Still highly appreciate you and this community's inputs :D
     
  21. Gypsy
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Gypsy » Aug 3, 2012
    Okay got it. So searching on JA-- you would need to check about their comfort for shipping to you there. I get that. BUT I know that we have a lot of members in 'corrupt custom' countries who use Brian Gavin and James Allen (Phoenix comes to mind) and they can get their stuff safely. SO if you do want to look into that, I know the 60 day return policy applies to international as well for JA.

    Buy an ASETscope then. If it gets stolen, no biggie but I doubt it will.

    If you do that and train your eye (and the GOG videos and the asscher tuturial will help you do that) and buy an ASET scope I see no reason why you can't buy in person. The ASET will also help you with radiants.
     
  22. Unsure123
    Rough_Rock

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    by Unsure123 » Aug 3, 2012
    I might get an ASET first and see what available options are in the local market here. If I still can't find a good one then I'll find a way to have it shipped to someone in the USA or something. Thanks again Gypsy.

    I've been reading through some of your links and will be doing so tomorrow again hehe I think my brain is overloaded already tonight. You guys have a good day! :D
     
  23. snow12
    Rough_Rock

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    by snow12 » Aug 3, 2012
    Gypsy, you are correct that cut grading is different for fancy shapes but the p3 angles in the one that unsure123 posted look off.
     
  24. Gypsy
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Gypsy » Aug 3, 2012
    Okay. But that's not what you said. You referred to the cut rating that JA had assigned the diamond (which is based on invalid and arbitrary criteria) as the problem, and recommended a different cut rating (which is also based on invalid and artibrary criteria) in its place. Which misleads the poster into thinking that the issue is merely that they need to look at a different cut rating to find a good stone. That's not the case. For example, there are a number of JA excellent stones that have p3 issues. And a number of JA good stones that do not.

    If you had instead said what you just did: "That particular stone may have an issue with it's p3 facet" then posted a link to Karl's tutorial found here: https://www.pricescope.com/journal/performance-and-p3-facets-discussion-about-step-cut-diamonds which explains what a p3 problem is, and how to spot it, then that would have been an accurate and-- even better-- a helpful post. Especially if you had gone on to explain that usually p3 problems occur when cutters are trying to hit the milestone carat weights of 1, 1.5, 2 and that by looking over stones that are at exact carat weights like that very carefully is important. Then you could explain that the poster might want to look at stones with 'weird' carat weights like 1.47 or 1.56 instead. In addition, you can point out that with fancy cuts carat weight does not correlate perfectly to size and that a diamond of 1.4 can face up larger than one of 1.5 carats depending on the depth and other factors of the two stones. So they understand that hitting that 'magic' carat mark may not be as important as they previously assumed and that they need to learn to look at the spread (dimensions) of fancy cut stones instead of carat weights.

    We try to be as accurate as possible here. Not just for the sake of the immediate poster we are helping but also for anyone lurking in threads trying to soak up information, or for posters who come later that will look up threads in their research. :wavey:
     
  25. Unsure123
    Rough_Rock

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    by Unsure123 » Aug 4, 2012
    Hi Gypsy,

    Thanks for the interesting points you gave in your previous post.

    I'd like to further ask regarding giving priority to the dimensions/spread of fancy cuts.

    Given that one should always inspect fancy cuts rather rely on numbers, are there any general red flags to check from the dimensions in the GIA for ECs or Radiants? Like the probability of having a better fire/brilliance will come from a high depth% compared to table% ?
    I usually notice that that depth% is higher by +/- 5% from table lengths.


    On a different note, for a 3-stone setting either with A. tapered baguettes or B. trapezium sides, are there any basic rules as well? Like what would be a better setting for ring finger sizes 5>, or <5 ?
     
  26. Gypsy
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Gypsy » Aug 4, 2012
    I could give you guidelines. But if you followed them you'd miss some spectacular stones like this one: https://www.pricescope.com/forum/rockytalky/aset-photo-of-emerald-i-m-considering-step-cut-lovers-help-t177801.html

    I know how much more comfortable it would be to have some statistics or something more tangible than "train your eyes then trust them" but unfortunately that's the best advice I can give you. When I search for stones for people I pull up the broadest search I can -- D-I in color. IF-SI in clarity and then adjust for budget and minimum carat weight. From there all I do is look at the pictures. If I like the stone then I take a closer look at it. ONLY AFTER THAT do I look at the certificate-- but as a rejection tool, not a selection tool. I discard anything with really compromised spread, bad inclusions, or very thin girdles. From there it's all about light return and how the facets light up.
     
  27. Gypsy
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Gypsy » Aug 4, 2012
    It's all personal preference.
    I love the classic tapered baguette look. It's a very elegant look for me. Trapazoids are nice as well, but I like them small in proportion to the center and I like them set down and tilted at a pretty good angle from the center so that it doesn't look like one big wall of bling but has a clear definition of 3 separate stones. If I had the funds, if I didn't want tapered baguettes (my first choice) then I'd consider cadillac cut or bullet cut sidestones for a unique and gorgeous sidestones.
     
  28. Unsure123
    Rough_Rock

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    by Unsure123 » Aug 4, 2012
    What do you think of this stone?

    I've been watching a few clips from GoodOldGold and comparing the emeralds from those videos to this one, I could see that the attached image of Emerald cut doesn't really have a good cut for the following reasons:
    1. Facets under the table are not symmetric (some are thinner, some are thicker)
    2. Facets under the table seems to be not aligned/parallel to each other

    What else did I miss out on which should be seen?
     
  29. Gypsy
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Gypsy » Aug 4, 2012
    Link?
     
  30. Unsure123
    Rough_Rock

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    by Unsure123 » Aug 4, 2012
    Woops sorry.
     
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