Need an expert opinion on this 3ct cushion cut diamond?

[WallaWalla3]

FYI, I had the stone measured. The measurements do appear to be consistent with what is contained on the GIA cert.

The dealer claims that when he showed me the stone in person the inclusion was likely there, but he believed it was not visible to the naked eye, so he considered it eye clean. He also claims that he believed I was aware of it at the time. I was not. Me obviously being inexperienced (and with the lighting in the store) likely didn't see the inclusion - if it was, in fact, the same stone. I also relied on the jeweler's opinion and trusted that he wouldn't sell me a stone that was visibly included. The jeweler didn't have the cert at the time, so I asked for a copy of the GIA cert to be sure what I was getting and check the specs and plot. The jeweler claims that when he faxed me a copy of the cert the red ink of the cloud didn't show up. Not having realized there were any issues and relying on the jeweler, I approved the purchase and custom setting/mounting of the stone thinking everything was great.

While I hope the dealer did not engage in anything intentionally decitful (i.e. stone switching; although the jewler could have certainly sent me a copy of a cert for a different stone knowing that the inclusion would not show up), I think this was definitely a case of the jeweler wanting to sell me his stone - and caring more about making a profit than selling me a stone that was what I was looking for. I have to ask myself, woudl I seriously sell someone a $30,000 diamond with a visible inclusion in it when they told me they definitely wanted something eyeclean?

I did pay with a credit card but it was for both the stone and setting. If anyone can offer any assistance on what to do, it would be much appreciated. Time is very short and I love the setting. But it sounds like swapping out a different stone just won't work.

 

[yennyfire]

Oh WallaWalla, your story is SO similar to mine. I purchased a stone in the 3+ carat range in NYC ( my original ering was lost/stolen after being worn for 9 years). In their lighting, it appeared eye clean. They set it for me and then sent it to me in Georgia. Within seconds of opening the box, I see a black inclusion. I went through all of the things you did (tried talking to them, asking them to exchange the stone, disputed the charge on my credit card, etc.). After several months of stress, my DH and flew back up to NYC to exchange the stone. I ended up going down to an I color (from G) but up to a VS2 clarity AND had to fork over another $5K. I had the new stone set in the same setting, but I hated looking at it, as it reminded me of my whole awful experience. I ended up finding a setting at a local jeweler and traded him a few pieces that I no longer wore, in exchange for the new setting and a coordinating wedding band. I love my new ring (despite some of my feelings of guilt over spending so much money on myself that could have gone to things for the whole family) and am so glad that I made the decision to switch the stone and the setting.

I'm going to disagree with some of the other advice you've received about not saying anything to your gf about the inclusion and waiting to see if she notices it. Even if she DOES notice it, she may not want to say anything to you about it, since she'll know that you spent a pretty penny on a ring like that. I had a hard time telling my husband that I wasn't happy with my stone (the included one) and we've been together for over 10 years and have two kids....

If it were me, I'd trade the stone in (even if it's for a smaller one) for one that is eye clean. Take it outside to look at it and smudge it up a bit (for some reason, doing this seems to make inclusions easier to see if there are any)....this is a lifelong purchase (unless you think you'd be happy to have your wife trade up down the road) and you want it to be right and attached to happy memories.

I hope that you can figure this out to your satisfaction. Of anyone on this board, I think I understand how you feel. I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy. Hugs.

 

[Laila619]

Hi,
I'd tell the jeweler the stone is not acceptable and that it was sold under false pretenses and misrepresented. If he doesn't agree to refund your money or exchange the stone, I'd dispute the whole thing with the credit card company for sure. So sorry.

 

[vintagelover229]

I'm so sorry that this has happened to you. You're right, you were clear you wanted an eye clean stone and for 30k you should have gotten it. If you paid with CC and the jeweler isn't being diligent in trying to make the situation right I'd return the ring and dispute the charge and start from scratch. Jonathan has gotten more AVC in and there has also been a few new ones listed on JBEG. However considering the price of diamonds/melee has already increased since you bought it you should try and figure out what is the best solution as quickly as possible to avoid any more price increases. The ring (even with the inclusion) is really very beautiful. Good luck!


ETA: here is one of the 3 carats that are newly listed. I know it's a drop down in color but it still faces up white and looks yummy!
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/7435/

 

[WallaWalla3]

Well, after several heated arguements with the jeweler. He has agreed to take back the stone. That's the good news. The bad news is this. He won't take back the setting. And, the way the transaction was broken down, he discounted a significant amount on the price of the stone (because I was also buying the setting which is exclusively sold through him and the one thing my gf specifically picked out - the sole reason I used this jeweler as opposed to a PS vendor) but I paid full (very full) price for this custom setting (i.e. over $10k).

The unfortunate news is, I have less than three weeks until the proposal (it has already been paid for and arranged on a vacation we are taking). And, because getting an entirely new stone and custom setting is definitely not an option in that timeframe, now I have to decide whether to keep the included stone or try to get a replacement that will fit into the setting.

As many have mentioned, it may be very difficult to do this. And, the jeweler who originally worked on the setting (and sold me the stone) is not an option for finding a new stone. So, for a halo setting of this type, what kind of measurements am I working with to have a new stone reset? Within .5 mm? Within .1mm? Who would I even talk to about something like this?

 

[Rhino]

Perfect example why I do not like plots and now you know why this SI1 was such a great deal. Whenever I see diamonds priced notably lower than others in its class there are a lot of questions I want answered, which when you learn the answers to may find out the deal isn't quite what you thought. Make the best of what you got though and as the others mentioned maybe she will not see it if you don't say anything.

edited to add: Glad to see they'll take it back! I was going to say ... if you made this kind of a decision without any kind of refund, trade up or buyback policy then tread cautiously.

Best regards,

 

[Gypsy]

Plots are useful and great to have. But like any tool, you need to know what their limits are. If you use a plot wrong, like anything else, you get a bad result.

You can't use them to judge if an SI will be eyeclean. You can use them to help you identify your stone as the correct one for the certificate in front of you.

 

[Rhino]

Plots are useful and great to have. But like any tool, you need to know what their limits are. If you use a plot wrong, like anything else, you get a bad result.

You can't use them to judge if an SI will be eyeclean. You can use them to help you identify your stone as the correct one for the certificate in front of you.

Right but you can't see the color of the inclusion and its relief within the diamond. Sure a plot is useful but in and of itself insufficient.

 

[WallaWalla3]

Well, now I'm confused. I wanted to get an "unbiased" opinion, so I took the ring to a local jeweler that is well known in our community. One of their owners looked at the stone and said "that is a good looking diamond; it's definitely the stone shown in the cert., looks like the cloud didn't show up on the copy of the GIA report they sent you, but i wouldn't have immediately noticed the inclusion if you didn't tell me it was there. It's probably eyeclean".

When I look at the diamond from 12" away I immediately see the black inclusion right in the center of the table? I know I'm aware that it is there. But how can that be eyeclean?

I'm begining to wonder if instead of going through all this hassel of trying to attempt to have a new stone point in a custom setting, I shouldn't just give it to her? But if I can see it immediately, I am guessing so will she. And possibly even people she shows the stone to. I'm not sure I want to send her around with a stone that has a visible black inclusion in it?

 

[MissGotRocks]

There is no hard and fast rule about eyeclean and the problem here is that you see it and you're guessing that she will see it too. Some people might be OK with it but if you're not, change it now while you have the option to do so.

 

[Haven]

There is no hard and fast rule about eyeclean and the problem here is that you see it and you're guessing that she will see it too. Some people might be OK with it but if you're not, change it now while you have the option to do so.

I agree with MissGotRocks. I'm so sorry you're dealing with this, and I hope it's resolved to your satisfaction very soon!

 

[WallaWalla3]

Well, I really don't know what to do. I, personally, wouldn't want a diamond with a visible inclusion. But I am WAY more uptight than my SO. What's the consensus here? Would it bother you? And, would you prefer to have a 3 ct G SI1 with a small possibly noticable black speck. Or an I VS1 that might be perfectly eye clean?

 

[slg47]

it would bother me. if the jeweler will take it back I would mail the ring to a PS vendor today to get started on finding a cushion that will fit the setting. I think you can go a little smaller on the cushion and have it sit more in the setting. Also you can find SI1s without inclusions like that.

 

[Haven]

it would bother me. if the jeweler will take it back I would mail the ring to a PS vendor today to get started on finding a cushion that will fit the setting. I think you can go a little smaller on the cushion and have it sit more in the setting. Also you can find SI1s without inclusions like that.

I agree with Slg. It's really unfortunate that you will end up losing so much money because they're charging so much for the setting, but that inclusion would bother me, especially since it was a surprise once the stone showed up. For the kind of money you're spending, I'd demand something that was truly eye clean, and to me eye clean means I can't see a big old cloud right in the face of my stone.
So sorry for your situation.

 

[Sky56]

I'm sorry this happened. What I would do is return the diamond. Don't listen to the jewelers - trust your own eyes.
From the picture you posted, not only is that inclusion visibly disturbing, but I also don't like the look of all those dark areas around the table where light should be reflecting back.
I would choose a different diamond - I like VS and VVS clarity - I am nutty that way - and I also recommend the vendors here though I haven't bought from any of them. I have seen their track record of many happy customers here and elsewhere over the span of many years.
I would propose to her with a different diamond maybe set in a simple 'temporary' setting, then later on when you have more time and resources, choose together a setting for it.
Your current setting is gorgeous, and if you can't return it, hold on to it and later give her a stunning gift of a colored gemstone set in it.
Best wishes and congratulations on your engagement. I have made mistakes, they have been painful, but eventually it worked out by returning, trading, getting something else.
I highly recommend this site below for learning about diamonds in general - I love Rhino's tutorials and videos.

http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/

 

[iota15]

Only you know your SO, but I have to say, I breathed a sigh of relief when you said you could return it. I thought, "thank gawd - now he can get something else".

Personally, that inclusion would bother me. While the jeweler and you weren't able to see it the first time through, the fact you can see nothing else now that you've noticed it - tells me you should get something else.... but I'm not your SO.

 

[Boogins]

OK I am no expert...but here are my two cents anyway. ;0
First of all, congrats on trying to get your GF the best possible ring you can afford. She will truly appreciate that.
Second of all, the situation you are in is cruddy and I feel for ya!
What I would do: Return the stone in question. Drop in color a little and buy that stone that VintageLover recommended (or another like it) so you can be sure the diamond has amazing optics and send the halo setting to a qualified benchman and have them remake the halo portion of the ring to match the new stone. Yes, you will be out a few thousand dollars on the setting repair, but at least you will be able to present your GF with a ring you clearly feel she deserves and that you will be proud to give. You might try Stephen Kirsch at Timeless Luxury http://www.timelessluxury.net/index.html... He has redone two halo rings that I can think of in the last few weeks and seems to be a pretty nice guy. Maybe if you explain your situation he can get it done for you on time?
Good luck!

 

[MissGotRocks]

I realize that the picture of the ering you posted is very magnified but I feel sure I could see that inclusion and it work drive me crazy. One of the reasons I chose the stone I did was because the inclusions were not under the table. I'm very picky about stuff like that and would drive myself crazy trying to see them if I knew they were there. With that one, I doubt you'd have to look very hard.

I would feel as perplexed as you do - you bought a large stone and thought it was eyeclean. Unfortunately, it didn't turn out and I'm sure there will be a substantial dollar loss to you. However, you can bite the bullet now and buy something more eye pleasing or turn this over and over in your mind for years to come. You'll recover from the money at some point in time - not so sure if you'd ever get over the inclusion in this stone. It will be twice as bad if she sees it and feels as yucky about it as you do.

Ask yourself which will bother you most in five years - the loss of money or the spot that won't go away? I know what my pick would be but you're the only one that can really determine what would be the best choice for you and yours.

 

[somethingshiny]

I'm sorry you're dealing with this. Personally, I could deal with it. I'm a size-whore though. I'll take a little imperfection for a giant rock. And you know that we see flaws much more clearly than the general population. Getting slammed in the return price is what you need to weigh against that imperfection. SI is definitely tricky in that size range, but to me, from 12" that would be very hard to spot for the avg Joe (or Jane).

Good luck with the proposal!

 

[WallaWalla3]

Well, I'm working with a PS vendor. I was under the impression that based on the prong setting there should be a little leeway to work with on the size. This vendor, however, belives that there is not; without modifying the setting. Strange? I was almost positive from your posts that with a prong setting I would be able to make a diamond with almost a difference as large as .5mm less - at least in length work because the original stone was somewhat edging over the border of the halo. But I am being told that is not the case? Not sure if this is because the vendor doesn't want to look for other stones. Or just wants to work with the one he found from an owner in his building that has almost exact proportions.

That being said. My ideal diamond would have been an antique 8 main cushion brilliant. But since I bought months ago and the market has gone crazy with prices, I am no longer in that range. With a max budget of close to $30k. I am now can ONLY get a Modified Brilliant. The vendor found 1 stone; an I VS1 that has almost identical proportions. I'm a little concerned because the stone has only VG/G, a Medium Blue fluor and it's plot looks like a battlefield (crystal, feather, indented natural, needle, natural, extra facet, etc.). Although the vendor claims that none of this matters because it's a VS1. The stones I previously looked at, for well under 30k, were ALL Cushion Brilliants and most had E/E or E/VG and No fluor.

Here's the cert and two pics. Definitely not my ideal stone, but with prices the way they are, the size restriction and the loss I've already taken on the setting. Thoughts?

 

[WallaWalla3]

I ran a search myself and also came up with these two options. Both, however, don't seem that appealing. Never imagined a budget of $30k would be a limitation.

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Cushion-Diamond-1372135.asp?b=16&a=12&c=77&cid=131

http://www.solomonbrothers.com/DiamondDetail.aspx?sku=5F874Y59&affiliate=9318613A-AD0C-4530-A456-0409DFEFB8DE &utm_source=PriceScope

 

[vintagelover229]

Wallawalla:
Great news about returning the stone! I personally am not a fan of that particular cushion (I'm not really a fan of modern cushions however the first one with the inclusion you had was amazing despite the inclusion. I like the bigger flashes and not the smaller ones like this one appears to have) I'm not really a fan of the new stone you posted. However that doesn't mean it isn't beautiful and that your fiancee won't love it What vendor are you working with may I ask? The vendor should know if the setting/size/stone will work or not better than we would (especially if they've seen the setting). I'm also sorry that the price jump has left you with not as many options as before. However I wouldn't just settle to get it over with. There are many vendors who can source good cushions (whiteflash sourced a really nice one, ERD sources many modern cushions and GOG has quite a few as well).

I'm sure no matter what you get its going to be beautiful in the end. Good luck with the rest of your journey and I hope it's smoother than the first half

 

[WallaWalla3]

Well, here's an interesting development. The PS vendor now tells me that he found a smaller stone that he believes would work better. It's measurements are considerably less than the stone that was in the setting by over .50mm in both length and width? It measures 8.14x7.95x5.35mm. That's not even close to the size the setting was made for? But the vendor says it fits better?

I'm attaching a pic of it compared to the other one. The smaller stone is on the right. The prior stone I posted is on the left. I'm also attaching a pic of each stone in the setting (the smaller stone is pictured first and the larger stone pictured second). The vendor says that the smaller stone "is just as brilliant". To me it doesn't look anywhere close to being as brilliant?

I also happened to find the exact smaller stone listed at JA (with a virtual loop) for $900 less than this vendor quoted me? And at Solomon Brothers listed for $1,100 less than quoted? Strange? Do vendor margains on virtual stones really fluctuate that much?

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Cushion-Diamond-1182608.asp?b=16&a=12&c=77&cid=131

For the most part I generally want to trust PS vendors as they are the experts and I'm not. But the pics and prices seem way out of wack? Can anyone else chime in?

 

[yssie]

I prefer the shape of the larger stone w/ the shape of the halo - they seem to match better IMO, from that photo. But if the smaller stone is *prettier* then I don't know what I'd choose!

Re. price difference - is it because this vendor is offering some services/guarantees/warranties that the others will not? IS/ASET/upgrade/buyback/trade-in... In any case I would bring it up and see what they can do, it can't hurt to ask.

 

[WallaWalla3]

The smaller stone seems dull and lifeless to me in the photos and on the virtual loupe at James Allen? I'm not sure how the vendor can view it as "just as brilliant"? I'm concerned that the stone may carry a much larger margain for the vendor. Hence the $900+ price difference for the same stone from two other PS vendors and that is the reason it is being pushed. I hope this is not the case. And the vendor is actually going with the better looking stone. But, unless I'm completely looking at the pictures in the wrong way - the larger stone looks twice as brilliant to me? Anyone else?

 

[iota15]

I don't know what's going on with your vendor and the size issue. If one of the reps are Bs'ing you, please tell them to stop it on behalf of us PSers. However, if they have your setting, I suppose it is possible the smaller stone could fit better height-wise (your setting and stone is a 3D object afterall). Aside from the LxW ratio and measurements, everything else has to work too.

There can be quite a variation between the vendor's margins, especially when it's generally a percentage and your stone is obviously on the high end. The margins also vary depending on what each vendor's contract is like with each cutting house, as well as whether they have purchased the stone already, or are giving a cut to another player, etc. If you find a stone you want, have whoever you're working with grab it and negotiate with them.

Between the two stones with pictures shown, I prefer the first one. It looks like there's some leakage under the table but it's better than the second one. I would not worry about the medium (I assume, blue) flouro. I can't see the GIA cert to assess the inclusion plot. What does the vendor say about the inclusions? I'm not a fan of indented naturals but all of the inclusions depend on their positioning and size. I would request an Aset on the first stone asap. (I don't like the second stone).

Also, would you consider this stone? http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-VS1-Premium-Cut-Radiant-Diamond-1337532.asp I know it's a radiant but it looks like a beautiful cut. Well, something to consider.

 

[slg47]

Well, I'm working with a PS vendor. I was under the impression that based on the prong setting there should be a little leeway to work with on the size. This vendor, however, belives that there is not; without modifying the setting. Strange? I was almost positive from your posts that with a prong setting I would be able to make a diamond with almost a difference as large as .5mm less - at least in length work because the original stone was somewhat edging over the border of the halo. But I am being told that is not the case? Not sure if this is because the vendor doesn't want to look for other stones. Or just wants to work with the one he found from an owner in his building that has almost exact proportions.

That being said. My ideal diamond would have been an antique 8 main cushion brilliant. But since I bought months ago and the market has gone crazy with prices, I am no longer in that range. With a max budget of close to $30k. I am now can ONLY get a Modified Brilliant. The vendor found 1 stone; an I VS1 that has almost identical proportions. I'm a little concerned because the stone has only VG/G, a Medium Blue fluor and it's plot looks like a battlefield (crystal, feather, indented natural, needle, natural, extra facet, etc.). Although the vendor claims that none of this matters because it's a VS1. The stones I previously looked at, for well under 30k, were ALL Cushion Brilliants and most had E/E or E/VG and No fluor.

Here's the cert and two pics. Definitely not my ideal stone, but with prices the way they are, the size restriction and the loss I've already taken on the setting. Thoughts?

yeah, I would not worry at all about VS1. I think that cushion you posted looks nice for a modified brilliant. Can you get an ASET image? Also I would trust the vendor's opinion about how much leeway you have in the setting, as they have the setting in hand. Good luck.

 

[WallaWalla3]

After snubbing the smaller (and in my opinion much worse) stone; the vendor was able to get a hold of another stone. He says this stone is MUCH better. It's a 3.02 H VS2. Here's a picture of the two, its cert and the cert of the other stone and their ASETs. Between the two - is one a winner or a dud? DEFINITELY NEED YOUR INPUT!

To me it looks like there is some darkness in the table of the smaller stone but maybe it is the photograph? The I stone also looks much whiter than the H? Again, maybe photograph. Finally, one other thing I noticed on the ASETs is the large stone appears in lighter red, but it seems because light is leaking into the background (where on the other it is sold black). Not sure how reliable the ASETs are.

 

[WallaWalla3]

Here's another picture of the new stone. Thoughts compared to the larger?

 

[slg47]

well I prefer the first one. But the new one looks more like your old stone. The new one seems to lack brightness around the edges, but tough to tell with this ASET setup.

are you looking for a more antique style cushion? if so I would inquire about those?