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Need an expert opinion on this 3ct cushion cut diamond?

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WallaWalla3

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
70
I found a local dealer who is very interested in selling me this 3 ct GIA "Cushion Briliant". It's a G color, but is an SI1. To me, I can't really see any flaws when looking at the diamond in person. It's not an 8 pavillion; only 4, not sure how much of a difference that really makes? The local dealer doesn't have the capabilities of taking any photos right now, but I can go back and see it in person again. The price seems to be lower than what I would pay through any online vendor. I'm attaching the GIA cert. Can anyone give me any comments based on the specs? It looks good to me, but I'm a noob and want to make sure I'm not missing anything glaring.

3.03_0.jpg
 
again we really can't tell anything from the GIA report. there are no red flags. Were you able to return the original diamond? Also I remember from your other thread that your GF has small fingers and you were looking at a halo setting...do you think this one will be too large? If she has longer fingers then maybe you would want a more rectangular cushion?
 
I am little upset. This is the diamond I purchased that I have been previously referencing. I saw it in person and it looked good. I am not very experienced with the loupe, but from what I saw it didn't have any major flaws. And, the price was very good.

So, the jeweler said he would fax me a copy of the GIA cert to confirm. It was a "Cushion Brilliant" as opposed to modified. It was an SI1, but on the faxed copy of the cert and when I looked at it, I didn't see any issues. So, everything seemed legtimate to me. And I purchased the stone, believing that I got a good deal. The jewler sent it to be custom mounted in an amazing halo setting. The sole reason I even purchased through this jewler was because he is the only "authorized" retailer in my area for a particular setting designer.

So, I went to pick up the completed product this morning and when I looked at it, the center stone seemed unbelievably dark. The diamonds in the halo setting appear to be 1,000 times brighter?!? I know this is common, but I couldn't get over how dark the stone looked.

I also got a copy of the actual GIA certificate. Right in the center of the diamond is a cloud. Because of the light color of red ink used in the GIA cert, apparently when it was faxed, the fax didn't pick up the cloud. If you see the attached image, there is a cloud on the actual GIA cert right next to the pinpoint. When I viewed the diamond originally, I didn't see the cloud (again, I am very inexperienced) and the jeweler didn't mention it. But now that I know where it is, when I look at it through the loupe it is clear as day. This is also an odd aspect, but when I look at the diamond, some of the facets appear almost like they have dust on them. But I've completely cleaned the stone and in certain light they appear like dust is on them?

Despite my dissatisfaction, the jeweler is obviously telling me it is an amazing stone at a great price. He claims that it is one of the best performing stones that he's seen. And, unfortunately, that because he already purchased the diamond from his vendor and because it was custom mounted that the sale is final. Unfortunately, an upgrade policy in this case won't help as I can't even come close to spending more on a stone.

Any advice on what to do? I will try to post pictures of the stone and the setting. After looking for a cushion stone for so long, it is very upsetting to spend a tremendous amount of money and feel somewhat duped. Perhaps it is my fault for not realizing about the GIA cert and relying on my own inexperience to select a stone, but I feel like the jeweler just wanted to make a sale. I even had another stone I was looking at, it was an I VS1 and the jeweler went out of his way to tell me that I would much rather have this stone because it is a G color even if it is an SI1. His comment was that EVERYONE would rather go up two levels in color than in clarity; so the G was obviously better. cert_2.jpg
 
I even had another stone I was looking at, it was an I VS1 and the jeweler went out of his way to tell me that I would much rather have this stone because it is a G color even if it is an SI1. His comment was that EVERYONE would rather go up two levels in color than in clarity; so the G was obviously better.
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well color and clarity are personal preferences...some people would prefer I/VS1.

did the jeweler give you the original GIA report when you purchased the diamond? Also do you have pictures of the ring? are you mainly unhappy about the 'darkness' that you perceive? I think this is a common feature of halo settings, just because of the optics of the melee compared to the center stone.
 
That's really the problem with fancy shape diamonds. You can't just go by measurements to judge a nice stone. What ever happened to looking at a stone and judging its beauty. Another thing, I would be extremely hesitant to buy an SI1 sight unseen. I've seen some horrendous SI1s in my career...
 
Would it make you feel better if people on PS thought it was a great stone? If so, I think it would be a good idea to post pictures of the actual stone and get some feedback on that before you get yourself too upset.

Of course, YOUR opinion of the stone matters most. But I'm thinking that perhaps you're upset for no reason? Maybe it IS a great stone. If you post pictures you'll get honest feedback (if you ask for it.)
 
As slg said, the optics of melee vs. a center stone are just... different. The melee, regardless of color, look like wee white dots and frequently look whiter even if they're the same color. It's just the way they are. So that could be, at least part, of the darkness you're seeing.

And the dust on the facets, could indeed still be dust. Diamonds are dang hard to clean. Unless you're drying it with canned air or something, it could still be dusty for sure even after cleaning. I mean, yes, it could of course be the cloud causing the effect you're seeing... but it might not be, it might just be dust.
 
Yup, I am definitely bitter. I took the ring with me to look at in different lightings. It seems as if the stone is dark typically only in spot lightning. So maybe this is the spot lighting effect I've read about.

But one thing is for sure. I can see the cloud in the center of the table with my naked eye holding it three feet away. I definitely didn't see it when it was under the jeweler's spot lighting. Most likely beause I didn't know it was there. But in natural daylight or other lighting it is 100% in your face not eyeclean. There is a black spot right in the center of the table. When I got the cert, if I would have seen anything close to a cloud in the center of the table I would have definitely questioned it. But as you can see from the picture of the cert above it didn't show up.

I thought that SI1's for the most part were eye clean; especially when it came to clouds? This isn't even close. And now the jeweler is claiming I saw the stone AND got a copy of the cert. even if it wasn't correct. When I spend over 30k on a stone and this is the end result, it's just unbelievable.
 
I'm so sorry, WallaWalla. I hope you can work something out with your jeweler so you can get a different stone.
 
To make matters worse. The stone, even though it is a G DEFINITELY appears darker than the I VS1 I was looking at. But I listened to the jeweler and went with the G because he said it was MUCH better color. The I was a stone that was on the wire for multiple vendors and the G was his stone. I'm guessing the profit on the G was MUCH greater for him. Just goes to show you, even someone who tells you they have your best interest at hand is always going to look out for themselves first.
 
I'm sorry this happened to you.

I would recommend buying a loupe that has the white LED lights attatched to it. This makes viewing stones and seeing inclusions much easier and you always know exactly what you are looking at regardless of lighting.

Also, after looking at many stones, I decided that Si1 stones were simply not clean enough to my liking. I have very sharp vision and did not come across a single Si1 that was truly eye clean. (not that they don't exist, maybe I didn't get as lucky). So you may have to up your specs to VS2 which is about 90% guarantee to be eye clean.
 
I think the main thing is that you don't mention the cloud to your girlfriend. It is quite likely that she wouldn't even notice it considering you didn't when you first saw it. We try to encourage people here to examine stones in different lighting before buying or before the return period is up. You can never assume an SI 1 is eyeclean. I think the price also was a red flag. You almost never get more than you pay for. And we try to tell people not to buy without a return policy. But since you don't have much recourse now, I would just keep quiet about the inclusions rather than pointing them out.
 
I agree with diamondseeker - just don't tell your soon-to-be fiance about the clouds. You can see them perhaps because in part, you know that they are there. The GIA plot does look a little too clean for a Si1. I guess the clouds were the grade maker.

However, if YOU could not see the clouds the first time through, don't let your fiance in on it. If it makes you feel better, even well cut rounds go dark in spotlighting. It really does, so if that's your only performance concern, I would just be happy with what you have. It's a great color and size, and seems to be performing well.
 
My performance concern is not the darkness. I did some reading, and you're right, it seems that many diamonds go dark in spot. It's not ideal and I would prefer a diamond that didn't. But I could actually live with that if it were the only issue.

My main issue, is the cloud. I am guessing it was a function of the spot lighting when I saw the diamond in the store. The darkness in the table likely obscured the cloud. I even walked it around the store, but didn't see anything and the jewler didn't mention anything. I asked for the GIA cert just to be sure there were no issues. And, well, you can see what I got. The cloud was not shown at all in the scanned copy. So, I thought everything was good and green lighted the purchase to have the stone sent to be custom mounted.

After this debacle, I read a lot of threads on what is "eye-clean". The jewler still maintains the stone is eye clean. My eye sight is notoriously awful, but I can see the cloud as a little black speck from the top holding the ring anywhere from 4-8" from my face. It is right in the center of one of the facets that shows particullarly white looking directly at the top. It is even more visable when I rotate the ring 90 degrees looking at the top.

I was under the impression that typically SI1's with clouds as inclusions were difficult to see? Yes, I know where it is now, so maybe it's easer to locate. But isn't the standard of "eye clean" generally, not visible to the naked eye from 5-10" away in natural light? Maybe I am being too critical, but when spending this amount of money on a center stone, I expected not to be able to see a visible inlcusion with my naked eye? Or, is this too much to expect for an SI1?
 
WallaWalla3|1302032337|2888483 said:
My performance concern is not the darkness. I did some reading, and you're right, it seems that many diamonds go dark in spot. It's not ideal and I would prefer a diamond that didn't. But I could actually live with that if it were the only issue.

My main issue, is the cloud. I am guessing it was a function of the spot lighting when I saw the diamond in the store. The darkness in the table likely obscured the cloud. I even walked it around the store, but didn't see anything and the jewler didn't mention anything. I asked for the GIA cert just to be sure there were no issues. And, well, you can see what I got. The cloud was not shown at all in the scanned copy. So, I thought everything was good and green lighted the purchase to have the stone sent to be custom mounted.

After this debacle, I read a lot of threads on what is "eye-clean". The jewler still maintains the stone is eye clean. My eye sight is notoriously awful, but I can see the cloud as a little black speck from the top holding the ring anywhere from 4-8" from my face. It is right in the center of one of the facets that shows particullarly white looking directly at the top. It is even more visable when I rotate the ring 90 degrees looking at the top.

I was under the impression that typically SI1's with clouds as inclusions were difficult to see? Yes, I know where it is now, so maybe it's easer to locate. But isn't the standard of "eye clean" generally, not visible to the naked eye from 5-10" away in natural light? Maybe I am being too critical, but when spending this amount of money on a center stone, I expected not to be able to see a visible inlcusion with my naked eye? Or, is this too much to expect for an SI1?
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eye-clean is subjective. some people define eye-clean as no really obvious inclusions from 12", some define as no inclusions visible from 6". Also it may be harder to find eye-clean SI1 in the larger carat sizes.
 
Are you sure that it's the cloud that you're seeing? According to the inclusion plot, the feather is first-listed, which means that it's the diamond's 'worst' inclusion (not the cloud). Have you tried cleaning it really well (not just on the surface, but all over, with a soft-bristled toothbrush)?

Also, it might be a good idea to post pictures here. That way, everyone can give you their honest opinions, which might make you feel better. :)
 
Not sure that a cloud shows up as a black spot - please post some pictures so we can see what you are referring to.

Would the jeweler be swayed by an independent appraisal of the stone? Will he absolutely not consider a trade or return of the stone?
 
Here is a scan of the plot from the actual cert. Notice the large cloud in the center that was NOT visible on the copy of the cert that the jewler sent to me. I tried taking photos of the stone with my digital camera but just can't caputre any detail of the stone itself with my point and shoot. It is definitely a small grayish/blackish mass right in the center of the table that I can see holding the ring anywhere from 6-10" from my face.

The setting is a custom micro-pave halo that was made for this diamond. Does anyone know how easy/diffcult the process would be to use another center stone with this same setting if I were able to get one? Would they have to rework the whole setting? Or, if the diamond was somewhat similiar in size could it be easily popped in/out? Sorry, I'm an ametuer with these things. But I have under two weeks to finalize the ring for the proposal.

Color%20Plot.jpg
cert_2.jpg
 
I was under the impression that clouds are usually light not dark black? This inclusion is definitely black, like a speck of dirt and I can see it holding the ring 12"+ away. How can this be eye clean?

Does anyone know about switching the diamond in a particular setting. This setting, as I mentioned, is a custom halo micropave that was made for this particular stone. It has four prongs at the top. Would it be easy to swap out a different diamond if it were somewhat the same size or would the entire head have to be replaced?
 
Here is the best picture I was able to takeCloud.jpg
 
Oh my.. you weren't kidding. I know clouds can be black (clouds are just groups of pinpoints, pinpoints can be either black or white, and report doesn't tell you how dense the cloud is) but - goodness :sick: I believe you when you say you can see it from quite a distance now that you know to look for it.

I'm sorry Walla. Yeah, you should've been wary of an SI of this size, and checked it out in various lighting types and taken your time with it, but it's still a punch to the gut when something like this happens. I hope your vendor can be convinced to accommodate you.. and if not, I do have some encouragement: 1) we who know about the flaws are always more aware of them than others. Please don't tell your SO - odds are very good that if she is not informed, she'll never notice and happily wear an otherwise lovely stone :)) 2) Sometimes inclusions really do bother us less as time goes by. Right now you're seething because you dropped a ton of money on something that wound up not meeting your expectations, but once you've cooled off a bit, in a few months, I think you'll be able to ignore it better.


I think it will be very difficult to put another stone in that setting - unless you find one with extraordinarily similar proportions. A halo does not have much give in the way of tweaking to slightly expand & contract spread, and it's a rigid structure which is also going to constrict depth. It looks like a beautiful and well-made ring, I think this is one time to let your FI-to-be stay happily ignorant.
 
I agree with yessi on this one. I wouldn't tell your soon to be bride about the inclusion. And if she does notice it I'd just say it was her diamonds birth mark. Lots of people like their inclusions because after work has been done, etc they can tell it's their stone. The ring and stone are both amazing and beautiful and even though it's disappointing that it's not 100% eye clean it doesn't make it any less beautiful of a ring. In fact I bet most people wont' even notice it. If you can't get him to get you a replacement (or perhaps a discount off the price) I would really try to take your mind off of it and focus on the proposal. If it bothers your SO that much and she notices it on her own I'd try to figure out what to do then.

Good luck and great job on the ring. It's beautiful!
 
I'm going way out on a limb here... but.... are you sure the diamond you bought is the one you first looked at? I just wonder because you viewed it (I think, based on your post) rather thoroughly before purchasing, so would you reasonably have really missed the black speck? I mean, if it was the same stone, the speck would have been there before it was mounted, as well as after, right? Also, another argument to make is that the copy of the plot you received didn't accurately represent the plot becuase the cloud did not show up, so you relied on a document that wasn't accurate.

Just grasping at straws here in an effort to help you out...

One more thing--if you do end up switching out the stone, you may be able to go with a smaller (i.e., lesser carat weight) stone with a lower depth since this one seems a bit deep.

BUT, all that being said, it is a lovely lovely ring and your fiance may never even notice the flaw if you decide to present it to her.
 
Dee*Jay|1302100932|2889170 said:
I'm going way out on a limb here... but.... are you sure the diamond you bought is the one you first looked at? I just wonder because you viewed it (I think, based on your post) rather thoroughly before purchasing, so would you reasonably have really missed the black speck? I mean, if it was the same stone, the speck would have been there before it was mounted, as well as after, right? Also, another argument to make is that the copy of the plot you received didn't accurately represent the plot becuase the cloud did not show up, so you relied on a document that wasn't accurate.

Just grasping at straws here in an effort to help you out...

One more thing--if you do end up switching out the stone, you may be able to go with a smaller (i.e., lesser carat weight) stone with a lower depth since this one seems a bit deep.

BUT, all that being said, it is a lovely lovely ring and your fiance may never even notice the flaw if you decide to present it to her.
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I'm with Dee*Jay here. I'm no expert, but the plot doesn't really seem to reflect that large of an inclusion, and I find it really hard to believe that you wouldn't notice that before it was set. Man, Walla, I'm so sorry you're having to have this happen. You've been so careful.

Playing Devil's Advocate here . . . I agree with others. I like my blemishes on my stone because I always know it's my stone. it's one-of-a-kind. To me, it's what makes a diamond as opposed to a CZ or the like.
 
I agree that this seems really odd, because like I said, the feather is the first-listed and therefore 'worst' inclusion - and that black mark obviously isn't a feather. There isn't any type of return policy with this jeweler?

I am so sorry that you are going through this. Like everyone else has said, the ring is absolutely gorgeous, and I don't know that I would mind a small black speck in a diamond that large. That being said, it ultimately comes down to how you feel about the ring, and about how you think your future fiancee will feel.

I'm sending tons of good vibes your way - I hope that you can get this sorted out soon!
 
I thought clouds were generally white and for the most part not visible? NOT large and black and easily identifiable from a foot away? I knew that SI1's were sometimes noticable, but to this extent? Is it really possible that this stone might not be the one in the GIA cert. There is a cloud shown on the actual cert (not the one sent to me to approve the purchase) - but would it be consistent with this type of inlcusion?

I definitely don't remember seeing this large of an inclusion when inspecting the stone, but again; I'm an amatuer. I don't really even know how to use a loupe. I relied on the jewler's opinion of the stone. Shouldn't this be something that he should have pointed out? He is claiming that it is the same stone we looked at. And, that the inclusion, in his opinion, is barely noticable (i.e. still eye clean). He also claims that this type of inclusion "really isn't even bad for an SI1".

The jeweler has said that the setting will be too difficult to rework. If I were to find a stone with similiar porpotions (within a mm)(maybe even smaller) - does anyone know if this is something that can be done by moving just the prongs? The custom halo took 8 weeks to make. I haven't got that kind of time. And, to be honest, the setting is perfect. It's just the stone. I just don't know what to do at this point. I don't want to have my fiance walking around with a $30,000+ included diamond? And, if my eyesight is not great and I can notice it immediately, I am guessing so will many others.
 
ugh, I'm really sorry about this. The jeweler would probably know about swapping out a stone...and if he said it is too difficult...

do you have any pictures of the ring from the side? sometimes diamonds sit 'up' on the halo and sometimes they are more 'flush' so that might give you some room to play with...but if he said it is too hard to switch out...
 
Walla, it should be an easy thing for a jeweler to tell you if the stone in the ring is the stone on the cert, so why not go to another jeweler and ask? If nothing else, they can just measure the dimensions of the stone with calipers to see if it's even the correct size.

As for this being a pretty good inclusion for an SI1... I don't know about that. There are, of course, visibly included SI1s, but there are also A LOT of eye clean SI1s, so I'm not on board with that argument at all.

Did you happen to pay with a credit card?
 
WallaWalla3|1302106302|2889246 said:
I thought clouds were generally white and for the most part not visible? NOT large and black and easily identifiable from a foot away? I knew that SI1's were sometimes noticable, but to this extent? Is it really possible that this stone might not be the one in the GIA cert. There is a cloud shown on the actual cert (not the one sent to me to approve the purchase) - but would it be consistent with this type of inlcusion?

I definitely don't remember seeing this large of an inclusion when inspecting the stone, but again; I'm an amatuer. I don't really even know how to use a loupe. I relied on the jewler's opinion of the stone. Shouldn't this be something that he should have pointed out? He is claiming that it is the same stone we looked at. And, that the inclusion, in his opinion, is barely noticable (i.e. still eye clean). He also claims that this type of inclusion "really isn't even bad for an SI1".

The jeweler has said that the setting will be too difficult to rework. If I were to find a stone with similiar porpotions (within a mm)(maybe even smaller) - does anyone know if this is something that can be done by moving just the prongs? The custom halo took 8 weeks to make. I haven't got that kind of time. And, to be honest, the setting is perfect. It's just the stone. I just don't know what to do at this point. I don't want to have my fiance walking around with a $30,000+ included diamond? And, if my eyesight is not great and I can notice it immediately, I am guessing so will many others.
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Actually, if your eyesight isn't great (ie you're near-sighted) you most probably see it much more clearly than anyone else w/ better vision will! May explain why the jeweller is quite baffled as to your reaction. One of those lil' perks (or not) of being able to focus at v. close range..

I don't think you're going to have much luck finding another cushion that will fit nicely into your halo, honestly. It's hard enough finding well-cut cushions of the colour, clarity, and price-range you're looking for, well-cut cushions of the right colour/clarity/pricepoint that have specific dimensions precise to the nearest tenth of a mm is... just not gonna happen unless you're willing to wait perhaps quite a long time.. but I'm no benchman. What sort of leeway re. size does your jeweller feel you're working with?

If you're *really* not okay with this stone you could put a new stone in a plain solitaire for the meantime and have a coloured gem custom cut for the current halo...?

ETA: clarity grade doesn't tell you about visibility of inclusion, just like a roadmap doesn't tell you if a road has one lane or two, a sidewalk.. but in general a larger stone of low clarity is more likely to show a visible inclusion than a smaller stone of the same shape and same clarity. Clarity grading still seems pretty opaque - enough so, to me, to have no explanation for such discrepancies, unfortunately!
 
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