My Pawn Shop 1.2ct OEC cut examination

[Lovesparklesparle]

Hello,

I have in my possession a 1.2ct J-K si1 (softly graded in setting I think, ring comes with valuation of $12750 aud) Oec. It measures 6.6x6.8mm and it has a rather large cloud under the table from approximately 4 o’clock to 7 o’clock. I feel that it does affect transparency.. I love the big petal, blinking look around the star facets on the perimeter, this characteristic is what drew me to this stone. The thing I’m unsure about is the centre looks dead There is almost no sparkle or petal pattern that we know and love under the table. I have cleaned it thoroughly.

- My first question is- is a deader centre the trade off for having such bold star facets? Has light return in the centre been intentionally sacrificed in order to make the exterior pop? Or can they co exist in perfection...

I understand Oec flavour is down to personal taste, but

- My second question is - do you think this is a generally speaking a well cut stone?

- My third question- is there a market for the side stones on this ring? They total .4twc.

My last question is- I spoke to a jeweller re resetting this stone onto my e ring. He said he could cut out the fishtail basket stone and all, cut my band in half, then solder the fishtail basket into the space, then resize at the back (the band has melee 3/4 the way around the shank). Has anyone had this done before? It would destroy my band if it doesn’t work out

I have 2 days to decide if I’ll keep this stone.
This one from LAD is still the other contender. Super bright centre but not on the outside as much.
https://loveaffairdiamonds.smugmug....European-Cut-Diamond-Ring---KL-VS/i-3jKHjd8/A


Thanks in advance!

I am not wearing red clothes, that’s just the stone!

 

[Lovesparklesparle]

Last video she was still a bit dirty under the Pavillion

 

[LLJsmom]

To answer your first question, yes it can coexist. I think it does in my OEC. If you need it you would just need to keep looking. Would you consider an avr or cac?

 

[Lovesparklesparle]

So I did consider and avr and if you remember that other stone from gog- which I ended up turning down for this one

What do you think of it?

 

[Lovesparklesparle]

How much should I expect to pay for a similar 1.2ct K si1 with no dead spots ...

 

[gregchang35]

I really like the LAD stone.

the OEC in the ring that you have- there are a few pics with different rings and stones to compare. In the second picture, it is the second ring from the top? I think the cloud under the table has an impact on the perspective/ brightness of this stone. The facet patterning is ok but i prefer the LAD stone looks better- sharper/ crisper.

It also sounds like you like your ER but want to change the stone.
you may have already considered this but, how about looking at stones instead?
There are many jewelers that have OECs- JbyGrace, LAD, old world diamonds, CaysieVB also can access some.

 

[Lovesparklesparle]

Hi Greg, thank you for your thoughts. Is this star facet pattern I see in this pawn shop ring (which is why I like it) actually quite a common characteristic in oecs? Would the LAD one have it too? I haven’t really noticed it in my searches but this may be due to the photography.

I am upgrading the stone in my e ring with a larger Oec. I have checked a few favourite vendors from here- the unfortunate thing with buying internationally is the taxes and other fees associated. Eg the $4450 LAD ring if it’s sent mounted and returned will cost
$80 brokerage bith ways
5% duty
10% GST
$100 odd for postage either way
1.34% exchange rate
Non refundable.

 

[twang07]

So you can never see some facets under the table even when it's dark? I think in some of the videos it's very lively around the perimeter so that's why I ask about the center. My OEC gets obstructed by my head/camera but even when it's dark I see the facets under the table. It's something that I have grown fond to look at. And when the light is from behind the stone, its really quite lively and I really enjoy the light show. Does this not happen for your stone? If you look at this thread by me earlier, you can kind of see some of the differences in my stone in certain lights. I don't think I have the most perfect OEC but does your stone behave like this? https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/stack-mismatched-can-anything-help.237172/
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/thoughts-on-oec-my-first-diamond-seeking-advice.232437/

It's different, it's certainly something that I had to get acquired to. But because of the times it comes alive I had decided to keep it because I enjoyed the different personalities for different reasons. This is obviously a very personal decision, and I'm not advocating that you change your tastes if you're truly unhappy with it, but sometimes I think it's hard to know with OECS before looking at it and it might be a while to find a great stone at a great price without taking some leaps. But if you think it's too scary to take the leap and get the LAD stone then maybe you should just get an AVR and know that it's "mind clean" decision when purchasing. It's more expensive due to the brand effect but it does take a lot of the guess work out. What happened to the GOG stone? I thought that was a good candidate!

ETA: comments about the current stone

 

[YadaYadaYada]

That LAD diamond is gorgeous, if you are having doubts about this one then that stone looks like a good contender.

Gotta say though that despite the diamond maybe not being as sparkly as you would like, that is a pretty good pawn shop find. Around here you are lucky to find an old cut and even then they are less than a half carat!

 

[gregchang35]

The star pattern is commonly known as the flower pattern in all well cut OECs.
Yes, the LAD stone has the better crisper flower pattern.

Pictures can only do so much on screen. The next best thing is to get imaging of these stones. Sadly, with the vendors that sell these older cuts, they do not have the necessary imaging tools to “tell” you how well the stones perform or show you the flower pattern like the Idealscope and ASET images they produce for MRB (modern round brilliants). Soooo, it is up to individuals’ eyes when they view he stone or relying on another individual’s photography.

For spending the money for the upgrade on an antique stone, the $100 that you spend is worth it. However, I would not consider this stone from the pawn store as I prefer the flower facet patterning of the LAD stone. Most of the vendors mentioned will produce imaging (including videos) to show you the performance of the stone. Out of the 2 you have shown here, I would choose the LAD stone as mentioned before the flower pattern is crisper and more distinct compared to the pawn store stone.

I have a 0.65ct OEC Q/R coloured stone and I can tell the flower pattern in it as opposed to the MRB pattern. I was fortunate enough to buy this stone with an ideal scope image and knew that it was a very bright stone with clear and crisp flower patterning.

Have you considered going to USA for 2 weeks? That way you line up your vendors and give them a brief of what you are after and then visit. Then you can physically see the stones and then make your choice. I think the jewelers will be more than happy to reset your stone for you in your original setting, for a fee, of course. Or, consider a new setting????

If nothing grabs you, then nothing does. But then you have spent the time understanding these stones and how they perform in real life and what they appear as an image on the screen. You have got your baselines sorted.

Then when you are home in aus, you can be more appreciative of the stones when viewing them on various websites.

Does that make sense?

I would contact the vendors and ask them for help in sourcing a stone for you. Or try loupe troop or diamond bistro - a site where ppl sell their stones/ jewelry for a lower price than vendors.

Take the time to make the choice, as this is your upgrade.

I love the fishtail prongs. The two benches I dealt with to make my ring, could not do it. But, I got a great result with different prongs/ claws. I posted my ring on the thread about the “trend in OECs” or similar name.

Old world diamonds have a huge website of OECs. Emails are slow to respond but phone calls are best. Being in Australia, makes it hard.

Jewels by grace, LAD, caysie VB can source these antique stones for you. Send them an email with what you like/ want.

Study/ view more stones online so that you can really appreciate what you like and what you don’t. It will make it easier for you to reject stones.

I hope that sorta helps you.

 

[yssie]

Is this a very shallow diamond?
The girdle is unfaceted, correct? Are there chips?

 

[Lovesparklesparle]

So you can never see some facets under the table even when it's dark? I think in some of the videos it's very lively around the perimeter so that's why I ask about the center. My OEC gets obstructed by my head/camera but even when it's dark I see the facets under the table. It's something that I have grown fond to look at. And when the light is from behind the stone, its really quite lively and I really enjoy the light show. Does this not happen for your stone? If you look at this thread by me earlier, you can kind of see some of the differences in my stone in certain lights. I don't think I have the most perfect OEC but does your stone behave like this? https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/stack-mismatched-can-anything-help.237172/
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/thoughts-on-oec-my-first-diamond-seeking-advice.232437/

Unfortunately my stone does not behave like your stone. If I look super close up, and move the stone very slowly I can make out the facets turning on and off, but from a normal distance it looks blurry.

Your stone draws the eye to the centre, my stone draws it to the star facets. I went to the jeweller and we used a firescope and an aset, and it did confirm what the eye sees;

Under the table there was A LOT of white- 1.5 whole facets were red, the rest mostly leakage. It literally looked like it was was a white table with a red brushstroke across it the width of 1 facet. I don’t recall seeing much of any blue. Poor contrast and A LOT of leakage. Then add to this the grade setting cloud.... the rest of the stone was really clean.. 1 or 2 carbon spots only! Such a shame.

Very strong light return on the starfacets.

“ What happened to the GOG stone? I thought that was a good candidate!”

It is a great stone but I felt I had to go for the pawn shop one even just to set my mind at ease. I had really become fixated on it and may have never truly moved on had I not bought it- I’d always wonder what if?

For some reason AVRs don’t appeal to me the same way genuine old cuts do.. yet anyway!

 

[foxinsox]

Looking at your videos, the perimeter/star facets are lit up so beautifully which makes that lack of light play in the centre stand out more than if the perimeter was less lively.
I think the lack of flower pattern and the lack of centre lighting up would make it a no for me.
My OEC is shallow (~50-52% iirc) so my centre isn’t as lively as @twang07’s one but I’ve got the petals I want to see and they light up when I move the stone so it’s an acceptable trade off to me. The light play is even across the stone so it’s not like there’s a ring of light with a dark centre.
So that’s what I’d want to see in your stone - balanced light play. However it’s a great size and it is very sparkly other than that middle. And it seems like it’s pretty much on par with what you’d pay for an overseas stone but you’re not having to pay to get it to you and all the duty etc.

How are you liking it given you’ve got it in hand? I love the setting and it’s very similar to your current one, just bigger.

 

[Lovesparklesparle]

The star pattern is commonly known as the flower pattern in all well cut OECs.
Yes, the LAD stone has the better crisper flower pattern.

Pictures can only do so much on screen. The next best thing is to get imaging of these stones. Sadly, with the vendors that sell these older cuts, they do not have the necessary imaging tools to “tell” you how well the stones perform or show you the flower pattern like the Idealscope and ASET images they produce for MRB (modern round brilliants). Soooo, it is up to individuals’ eyes when they view he stone or relying on another individual’s photography.

For spending the money for the upgrade on an antique stone, the $100 that you spend is worth it. However, I would not consider this stone from the pawn store as I prefer the flower facet patterning of the LAD stone. Most of the vendors mentioned will produce imaging (including videos) to show you the performance of the stone. Out of the 2 you have shown here, I would choose the LAD stone as mentioned before the flower pattern is crisper and more distinct compared to the pawn store stone.

I have a 0.65ct OEC Q/R coloured stone and I can tell the flower pattern in it as opposed to the MRB pattern. I was fortunate enough to buy this stone with an ideal scope image and knew that it was a very bright stone with clear and crisp flower patterning.

Have you considered going to USA for 2 weeks? That way you line up your vendors and give them a brief of what you are after and then visit. Then you can physically see the stones and then make your choice. I think the jewelers will be more than happy to reset your stone for you in your original setting, for a fee, of course. Or, consider a new setting????

If nothing grabs you, then nothing does. But then you have spent the time understanding these stones and how they perform in real life and what they appear as an image on the screen. You have got your baselines sorted.

Then when you are home in aus, you can be more appreciative of the stones when viewing them on various websites.

Does that make sense?

I would contact the vendors and ask them for help in sourcing a stone for you. Or try loupe troop or diamond bistro - a site where ppl sell their stones/ jewelry for a lower price than vendors.

Take the time to make the choice, as this is your upgrade.

I love the fishtail prongs. The two benches I dealt with to make my ring, could not do it. But, I got a great result with different prongs/ claws. I posted my ring on the thread about the “trend in OECs” or similar name.

Old world diamonds have a huge website of OECs. Emails are slow to respond but phone calls are best. Being in Australia, makes it hard.

Jewels by grace, LAD, caysie VB can source these antique stones for you. Send them an email with what you like/ want.

Study/ view more stones online so that you can really appreciate what you like and what you don’t. It will make it easier for you to reject stones.

I hope that sorta helps you.

Thank you Greg I’m sure you all know how it is but I feel like I’ve been searching for an eternity lol. I check LT every day but no luck. I wish I could come to the USA and go on a jewel hunt but unfortunately it’s off the table.

I struggle to translate images of a stone into how it will perform. Eg jewelsbygrace have pictures of loose stones but I don’t really know how they would look in normal conditions. How do you know if it will be bright or dull?

I LOVE the look of this stone and thought the LAD stone looked very similar, what do you think? If the LaD stone performed like this it might be THE ONE!

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/oec-next-to-a-mrb.241004/

 

[Lovesparklesparle]

Is this a very shallow diamond?
The girdle is unfaceted, correct? Are there chips?

Um, I don’t think so? Do you mean total depth? It’s 6.6x6.8 and 1.2 ct.

No chips at all.

 

[Lovesparklesparle]

Looking at your videos, the perimeter/star facets are lit up so beautifully which makes that lack of light play in the centre stand out more than if the perimeter was less lively.
I think the lack of flower pattern and the lack of centre lighting up would make it a no for me.
My OEC is shallow (~50-52% iirc) so my centre isn’t as lively as @twang07’s one but I’ve got the petals I want to see and they light up when I move the stone so it’s an acceptable trade off to me. And the light play is even across the stone so it’s not like there’s a ring of light with a dark centre.

How are you liking it given you’ve got it in hand?

I am loving the perimeter lol... I think it’s got to be a no from me too is this strong flower pattern in this stone above average? Ie when I pass on this, it’s achievable to find another stone with this characteristc? Do you think the LaD will have this around the perimeter too?

 

[Lovesparklesparle]

Also, do LAD and other websites use photography tricks to enhance the images of their stones? For example, holding up white surfaces by the camera which will reflect back into the stone making it appear brighter.

The red showing In My videos was the red phone case :/

 

[Lovesparklesparle]

Um, I don’t think so? Do you mean total depth? It’s 6.6x6.8 and 1.2 ct.

No chips at all.

 

[Lovesparklesparle]

That LAD diamond is gorgeous, if you are having doubts about this one then that stone looks like a good contender.

Gotta say though that despite the diamond maybe not being as sparkly as you would like, that is a pretty good pawn shop find. Around here you are lucky to find an old cut and even then they are less than a half carat!

Yes, turns out it was too good to be true! I hoped a good clean would reveal a beautiful petal pattern but alas. They had it on stock for over 14months and the original asking price was $8200 aud

My only concern with LAD is that it might not look as good in person.

 

[Lovesparklesparle]

Greg- this is the stone from GOG that I so almost bought. K vs2 1.07ct vs N vvs AVR

 

[gregchang35]

Thank you Greg I’m sure you all know how it is but I feel like I’ve been searching for an eternity lol. I check LT every day but no luck. I wish I could come to the USA and go on a jewel hunt but unfortunately it’s off the table.

I struggle to translate images of a stone into how it will perform. Eg jewelsbygrace have pictures of loose stones but I don’t really know how they would look in normal conditions. How do you know if it will be bright or dull?

I LOVE the look of this stone and thought the LAD stone looked very similar, what do you think? If the LaD stone performed like this it might be THE ONE!

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/oec-next-to-a-mrb.241004/

static images are a great starter, but you will need a video of the stone performing. And, i think that the LAD stone performs well based on the video that you posted. How much it will perform for you, i am not sure; as everyone's tastes differ. but, i do like what i see of the LAD stone. It is worth having a look. There are other more experienced old cut posters on here, that would probably tell you yay or nay, based on a pic or video.

Sadly, yes, being in AUS, it is a costly exercise to see the stone and then realise that you dont like it. However, i really believe it is worth the $100 to say "yep- it is or isnt for me". That $100 also builds on your baseline on the stone and the images that have been supplied. It is definitely much cheaper than flying to the USA to do all that i suggested before. You will become more scrupulous of what is good to have the stone sent to AUS for viewing.

I do not sense an urgency of getting the OEC, from your posts. So, do take the time to read/ view still and video images of all the OECs you like. Then post on here to ask for opinions. I haven't been on PS for a few years. Only jumped back on in the last few weeks.

most PSers here spend ALOT of time finding their Holy Grail (HG) stones and settings. Some get lucky and others learn from their purchases. It is all a learning curve. I was really lucky with my OEC.. the PSer that was selling that stone had an idealscope image of it that showed it was a very bright stone and, i wanted a really low colour... all the stars lined up for me and finally got it shipped to AUS.

Without alot of images, the best 'old cut' stones are really the AVR. they are cut for their performance and it is just something. I was lucky enough to see it in NY. However, i read that they do not appeal to you.

SO now begins your fact finding mission. Learn as much as you can and i truly believe that the $100 is going to be the best money you can spend on learning about the OEC and the supplied images of them.

Hope that helps.

BTW- that OEC you posted is really something!!!

 

[twang07]

I don't think that LAD does any trickery and I think you can ask her for videos in all sorts of lights and distance that would keep it in focus, and make an ASET. I honestly haven't worked with her before but I can't imagine that you can't ask for these things. It'll help you make the leap. It's a shame about this one. Good luck with your search! Maybe GOG still has the stone you were originally considering...?

TBH I don't think I would have bought my stone if I only saw pictures/videos of it. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing it's pretty unphotogenic without a great deal of effort. So that's why I sympathize with not great looking pics.... However if the pictures and videos look good it has to translate to real life right? Good luck with your search!

 

[gregchang35]

Greg- this is the stone from GOG that I so almost bought. K vs2 1.07ct vs N vvs AVR

i really like the left one.. the facet patterning on that one is more to my liking.. just a little broader than the stone on the right. is that the K???

 

[twang07]

Looking at your videos, the perimeter/star facets are lit up so beautifully which makes that lack of light play in the centre stand out more than if the perimeter was less lively.
I think the lack of flower pattern and the lack of centre lighting up would make it a no for me.
My OEC is shallow (~50-52% iirc) so my centre isn’t as lively as @twang07’s one but I’ve got the petals I want to see and they light up when I move the stone so it’s an acceptable trade off to me. The light play is even across the stone so it’s not like there’s a ring of light with a dark centre.
So that’s what I’d want to see in your stone - balanced light play. However it’s a great size and it is very sparkly other than that middle. And it seems like it’s pretty much on par with what you’d pay for an overseas stone but you’re not having to pay to get it to you and all the duty etc.

How are you liking it given you’ve got it in hand? I love the setting and it’s very similar to your current one, just bigger.

Ha actually how you feel about your stone is exactly how I feel about my stone. It's an acceptable trade off to me. It's only lively in certain very staged scenarios. It would be fun to have a "show me your worst pictures then your best " for OECs it would probably be very inspiring. This diamond would make a stunning pendant. Just need to wait like 20 years before I mention the word "upgrade" to my FH

Sorry OP for the slight sidebar.

 

[arkieb1]

I'm an Aussie, are you in Sydney or Melbourne? If so I can suggest some shops here that have OECs that have decent cut patterns so you can learn what you like and actually see what a good OEC should look like that way you know what you are looking at. Your stone above almost looks like it has fish eye in your photos, but it could be taken on a weird angle or something.

 

[gregchang35]

Also, do LAD and other websites use photography tricks to enhance the images of their stones? For example, holding up white surfaces by the camera which will reflect back into the stone making it appear brighter.

The red showing In My videos was the red phone case :/

What you will see a lot of with the old cuts... it does pick up/ reflect the colours from its surrounding areas really well. It often reflects lots of pastels, which i adore.

You mentioned in another post, that you do not think this LAD stone will perform? what or why do you think that? Is it because it has been for sale for some time?
LAD produced that video of that ring in the sunlight. so that is as natural as you get. To me, the stone performs nicely and worth a look in person. IT could be as you suspect: that it might not perform. Then your intuition on that stone is correct and something lead you to think that based on the imaging that you have. That is a great tool that you have... you have a sense from the pics.. Use that for your assessment of future stones.

What you could ask her to do is take a video of it inside where there is a fluorescent light, which is what most of us work environments are like?????

happy hunting!!! ITs soo fun!!!

 

[Babyblue033]

Also, do LAD and other websites use photography tricks to enhance the images of their stones? For example, holding up white surfaces by the camera which will reflect back into the stone making it appear brighter.

The red showing In My videos was the red phone case :/

I recently bought an OEC/Transitional from LAD and from my experience her videos were spot on to what I see in real life. I saw a TON of videos, in different lighting, next to another stone I was considering, on a setting, and combination of those made me feel pretty confident about what to expect. Buying a stone sight unseen is terrifying of course but Erica was very helpful and upfront about things and answered all my questions and concerns.

My recommendation would be to talk to the vendors about what you're looking for, not just look at their photos or videos. Tell them your preference and specific concerns, and they can let you know if the particular stone fits that criteria or not. Ask them for additional videos, look at it next to another similar/different stone to get better perspective (different facet patterns, maybe different colors), etc. Post it here to get more feedback from experts here. I know there's nothing better than seeing a stone in person, but sometimes the emotions or attachments can cloud your judgements too so different perspective can help.

Based on the videos the pawn shop ring is a no for me too. I'm sensitive to center not looking lively, it draws me in in a bad way and once I see it I cant unsee it.

 

[foxinsox]

Ha actually how you feel about your stone is exactly how I feel about my stone. It's an acceptable trade off to me. It's only lively in certain very staged scenarios. It would be fun to have a "show me your worst pictures then your best " for OECs it would probably be very inspiring. This diamond would make a stunning pendant. Just need to wait like 20 years before I mention the word "upgrade" to my FH

Sorry OP for the slight sidebar.

DH is already aware that an upgrade is in our future and mostly on board with it but it’s a long way off - 10-15 years unless we come into some unexpected money as we’ve got house, travel and retirement plans that come ahead of bigger sparklies!
I agree about the show me your worst side - that would be a really interesting and potentially useful thread!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Jonathan now sells his AVRs on the site below. He recently marked a lot of the stones down. Have you looked there?

https://www.augustvintageinc.com/collections/august-vintage-european-cut

There are beautifully cut OECs out there. It takes a lot of time and patience to find one with the right specs and price. But there were superior cutters back then just like there are now. Many PSers have found their holy grail OECs, and others of us decided to go the AVR route.

Do not settle for a mediocre diamond of any kind. You'll know if you absolutely LOVE a stone when you see it!

 

[Lovesparklesparle]

i really like the left one.. the facet patterning on that one is more to my liking.. just a little broader than the stone on the right. is that the K???

Yes the avr is onthe left. I thought it useful to compare my prospective stone to the best. There seemed to be a little light leakage which spooked me from pulling the trigger.