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Misrepresented Stone. Should I Sue?

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Gypsy

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Date: 2/21/2009 6:32:57 PM
Author: denverappraiser
What misrepresentation? They graded the stone using their own grading scale and you’re done nothing at all to suggest that they’ve applied it incorrectly. (hint: The scale used by GIA and taught in their classes doesn’t even HAVE an SI3 clarity grade and there’s no scale at all for shine or fire. GIA simply doesn''t apply here). For all you know a sugar cube may be a 10 on their sparkle scale. I can only guess what ''ideal'' means to them but this also doesn''t appear on any GIA scale.

Take the refund and count yourself as having dodged a bullet.


Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
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Thank you Neil!
 

Dancing Fire

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Rockdiamond

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I agreee wholeheartedly- if you got your money back, that''s basically being made whole from a legal standpoint.
BUT- I can understand the sentiment.
Suing would be done to achieve two things-
It make the injured party "whole"- which has already happened due to the refund..
But the other thing it would do is make the seller think twice before misrepresenting again.
That part, I complelely undersatnd, and wish we could do more to make sellers who intentionally misrepresent to clean it up......
 

Deelight

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Date: 2/21/2009 4:21:14 PM
Author: Ellen
Date: 2/21/2009 3:53:18 PM

Author: lyra

At this point, you are lucky you are being offered a full refund. Take it and run! Easy and simple. Then come back here and get help to find the best possible stone for your budget. We really like helping people. Please do come back and share.
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Absolutely. Be very, very happy, and move on.
Date: 2/21/2009 4:59:19 PM
Author: Maisie
I am wondering why you would want to sue. Its not like you haven''t been offered a full refund. What would you like the seller to do? Compensate you further?

Ditto take the money and RUUUUUUUN
 

Ellen

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Date: 2/22/2009 10:59:28 AM
Author: Deelight



Date: 2/21/2009 4:21:14 PM
Author: Ellen



Date: 2/21/2009 3:53:18 PM

Author: lyra

At this point, you are lucky you are being offered a full refund. Take it and run! Easy and simple. Then come back here and get help to find the best possible stone for your budget. We really like helping people. Please do come back and share.
2.gif
Absolutely. Be very, very happy, and move on.



Date: 2/21/2009 4:59:19 PM
Author: Maisie
I am wondering why you would want to sue. Its not like you haven't been offered a full refund. What would you like the seller to do? Compensate you further?

Ditto take the money and RUUUUUUUN
oooh who who !
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Lorelei

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Date: 2/22/2009 11:08:29 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 2/22/2009 10:59:28 AM
Author: Deelight




Date: 2/21/2009 4:21:14 PM
Author: Ellen




Date: 2/21/2009 3:53:18 PM

Author: lyra

At this point, you are lucky you are being offered a full refund. Take it and run! Easy and simple. Then come back here and get help to find the best possible stone for your budget. We really like helping people. Please do come back and share.
2.gif
Absolutely. Be very, very happy, and move on.




Date: 2/21/2009 4:59:19 PM
Author: Maisie
I am wondering why you would want to sue. Its not like you haven''t been offered a full refund. What would you like the seller to do? Compensate you further?

Ditto take the money and RUUUUUUUN
oooh who who !
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LOL!!!
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vf0valkyrie

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Agree with everyone. Take the refund, and find a nicer one from one of the PS vendors.

Since you got it online from this vendor, if there is any place to write reviews for them, just write your experience down to share it with others.

Just my two cents worth
 

risingsun

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Date: 2/22/2009 11:16:31 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 2/22/2009 11:08:29 AM
Author: Ellen


Date: 2/22/2009 10:59:28 AM
Author: Deelight





Date: 2/21/2009 4:21:14 PM
Author: Ellen





Date: 2/21/2009 3:53:18 PM

Author: lyra

At this point, you are lucky you are being offered a full refund. Take it and run! Easy and simple. Then come back here and get help to find the best possible stone for your budget. We really like helping people. Please do come back and share.
2.gif
Absolutely. Be very, very happy, and move on.





Date: 2/21/2009 4:59:19 PM
Author: Maisie
I am wondering why you would want to sue. Its not like you haven''t been offered a full refund. What would you like the seller to do? Compensate you further?

Ditto take the money and RUUUUUUUN
oooh who who !
9.gif
LOL!!!
36.gif
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I couldn''t remember which group did this song. Well done, Miss Ellen
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Ellen

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Deelight

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Date: 2/22/2009 11:16:31 AM
Author: Lorelei
Date: 2/22/2009 11:08:29 AM

Author: Ellen


Date: 2/22/2009 10:59:28 AM

Author: Deelight





Date: 2/21/2009 4:21:14 PM

Author: Ellen





Date: 2/21/2009 3:53:18 PM


Author: lyra


At this point, you are lucky you are being offered a full refund. Take it and run! Easy and simple. Then come back here and get help to find the best possible stone for your budget. We really like helping people. Please do come back and share.
2.gif
Absolutely. Be very, very happy, and move on.





Date: 2/21/2009 4:59:19 PM

Author: Maisie

I am wondering why you would want to sue. Its not like you haven''t been offered a full refund. What would you like the seller to do? Compensate you further?


Ditto take the money and RUUUUUUUN
oooh who who !
9.gif

LOL!!!
36.gif
36.gif
36.gif
36.gif


Happy%20dancing%20guy.gif
 

Ellen

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lol.gif
 

Diamond*Dana

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Why bother if they have offered you a refund? Be thankful for that!
 

Lorelei

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Date: 2/22/2009 11:48:19 AM
Author: Deelight

Date: 2/22/2009 11:16:31 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 2/22/2009 11:08:29 AM

Author: Ellen



Date: 2/22/2009 10:59:28 AM

Author: Deelight






Date: 2/21/2009 4:21:14 PM

Author: Ellen






Date: 2/21/2009 3:53:18 PM


Author: lyra


At this point, you are lucky you are being offered a full refund. Take it and run! Easy and simple. Then come back here and get help to find the best possible stone for your budget. We really like helping people. Please do come back and share.
2.gif
Absolutely. Be very, very happy, and move on.






Date: 2/21/2009 4:59:19 PM

Author: Maisie

I am wondering why you would want to sue. Its not like you haven''t been offered a full refund. What would you like the seller to do? Compensate you further?


Ditto take the money and RUUUUUUUN
oooh who who !
9.gif

LOL!!!
36.gif
36.gif
36.gif
36.gif


Happy%20dancing%20guy.gif
9.gif
 

paeony

Shiny_Rock
Premium
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Oct 25, 2008
Messages
233
I agree-- be thankful you have the option of a refund!
I''m surprised your lawyer friend even said that you would have a strong case-- esp. if the stone was uncerted

Buying a diamond - sight unseen (and uncert.) to me is like buying a used car--
The seller is going to try to get you to buy it, but the responsibility is on the buyer to do their research and proper inspection.

I had a seller send me a diamond once that they said was unbelievably sparkly, white and eyeclean (SI2, I, Ideal cut)
When I got it, it was so dark, yellow with noticeable black chunks
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(to my untrained eye, I would say: I1, N, poor cut)
I could not get that thing back in the mail fast enough!
I wasn''t going to keep it because the seller told me it was eyeclean (so it must be, right?
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)
Its important to get these things checked out as soon as the stone is in your possession to see if the specs match up and live up to your standard.
It is also important to be sure the seller has a good return polilcy in case the stone isn''t what you expected.

I really hope this turns out well and you end up with what you want!!
 

mjgarris

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Messages
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Thank you all for your advice. To answer some of your questions and to clarify some things:

The seller was not a PS dealer nor was this an eBay purchase. I purchased the stone from a jeweler in LA that was referred to me by a coworker. (Since I am sure this will be asked, No, I have not informed my coworker of the ordeal. He may or may not have received a lower quality diamond than what he paid but in case he did, he would likely get his looked at. He has a mind clean stone, why ruin it?)

I am not wanting to sue to try to seek monetary benefit. My ideal outcome would be to receive the quality of stone I was told I was buying. Look at the situation in a pure legal perspective. The purchase is a contract and there is a dispute over the fulfillment of this contract. He has made an offer to nullify the contract. I am not satisfied with the offer and he will not consider any other offers.

In regards to the used car analogy, we have lemon laws to protect the consumer from this type of behavior.

I am surprised with the overwhelming majority opinion to just accept the refund. It is commonly mentioned on this forum that this type of behavior is common with e-vendors. Does this not take business from the honest vendors? How else do you stop this type of behavior without suing?
 

coatimundi_org

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Messages
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Date: 2/23/2009 2:37:48 PM
Author: mjgarris


I am not wanting to sue to try to seek monetary benefit. My ideal outcome would be to receive the quality of stone I was told I was buying. Look at the situation in a pure legal perspective. The purchase is a contract and there is a dispute over the fulfillment of this contract. He has made an offer to nullify the contract. I am not satisfied with the offer and he will not consider any other offers.

You purchased an uncertified I1 diamond. One vendor may call that an I1 and another an I3--that can be subjective from vendor to vendor without a CERT. I really don't see how you would have legal recourse on an UNcertified stone. I1 is in the realm of eye visible inclusions. A legal squabble over the varying degrees of inclusions in an I clarity stone does not make sense to me--especially since you were offered a full refund.

Take the refund, and buy from another vendor. Simple.
 

Todd Gray

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Date: 2/23/2009 2:37:48 PM
Author: mjgarris
The seller was not a PS dealer nor was this an eBay purchase. I purchased the stone from a jeweler in LA that was referred to me by a coworker.

Doubtful the diamond could have been purchased from a vendor here on PS since most of us ONLY represent diamonds which are lab graded and some of us restrict that to either AGS or GIA. But the declared range of SI-3/I-1 does make it look like an eBay offering which is to say nothing against eBay, but rather some of the people who sell merchandise there.

I am not wanting to sue to try to seek monetary benefit. My ideal outcome would be to receive the quality of stone I was told I was buying. Look at the situation in a pure legal perspective. The purchase is a contract and there is a dispute over the fulfillment of this contract. He has made an offer to nullify the contract. I am not satisfied with the offer and he will not consider any other offers.

In regards to the used car analogy, we have lemon laws to protect the consumer from this type of behavior.

The reality is that there is an acceptable difference of three color or clarity grades allowed for by the Federal Trade Commission with regards to diamond grading... This is because there is not an absolute system in place for grading diamond clarity or color, each gemological laboratory and every seller can rely on their own system (!) so what one person calls an SI-1 might be another persons'' VVS clarity diamond (by their standards) and thus your "case" would likely yield little more than a FAT legal bill for you. This is why people are urging you to take the refund (before the vendor revokes it).

I am surprised with the overwhelming majority opinion to just accept the refund. It is commonly mentioned on this forum that this type of behavior is common with e-vendors.

Huh? Which e-vendors make this type of behavior common practice?!?!

Why anybody would purchase a diamond of any significant size or cost without a lab report is beyond my understanding... There are plenty of diamonds available that have been graded by reputable gemological laboratories such as the AGS, GIA and HRD - all of which are well recognized as being rather consistent in their grading practices (the argument of cut grading / proportions rating systems aside). I''m not even going to get into the potential risk of a consumer buying a diamond which has been irradiated to improve color, laser drilled and fracture filled to improve clarity, etc. but again just wonder "why would anybody buy a diamond which is not lab graded by a reputable lab?" it''s like asking to be ripped. You don''t leave your keys in your car at night do you? I mean, we have laws which prohibit people from stealing cars and all that, but hey, those thieves sure do look surprised when they rip off a bait car
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pixley

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Date: 2/21/2009 6:32:57 PM
Author: denverappraiser
What misrepresentation? They graded the stone using their own grading scale and you''ve done nothing at all to suggest that they''ve applied it incorrectly. (hint: The scale used by GIA and taught in their classes doesn''t even HAVE an SI3 clarity grade and there''s no scale at all for shine or fire. GIA simply doesn''t apply here). For all you know a sugar cube may be a 10 on their sparkle scale. I can only guess what ''ideal'' means to them but this also doesn''t appear on any GIA scale.

Take the refund and count yourself as having dodged a bullet.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

Professional Appraisals in Denver

mjgarris
Thank you all for your advice. To answer some of your questions and to clarify some things:

The seller was not a PS dealer nor was this an eBay purchase. I purchased the stone from a jeweler in LA that was referred to me by a coworker. (Since I am sure this will be asked, No, I have not informed my coworker of the ordeal. He may or may not have received a lower quality diamond than what he paid but in case he did, he would likely get his looked at. He has a mind clean stone, why ruin it?)

I am not wanting to sue to try to seek monetary benefit. My ideal outcome would be to receive the quality of stone I was told I was buying. Look at the situation in a pure legal perspective. The purchase is a contract and there is a dispute over the fulfillment of this contract. He has made an offer to nullify the contract. I am not satisfied with the offer and he will not consider any other offers.
Neil''s post above re: the vendor''s "grading scale" really sums this up best. As it was sold as UN-certed and the vendor did not proclaim this stone to be graded based on any recognized grading scales (AGS, GIA, EGL or what have you), the vendor is off the hook. I would much rather spend my time taking the refund and going to a place that uses with legitimate, standardized grading tools. Bring a loupe, an IS, and ASET scope with you next time around and arm yourself with the vast amount of knowledge that this site has to offer.

I don''t recall you saying how much you paid for this stone, but I would venture to guess that you received what you paid for (not what you thought you were getting, unfortunately), which is probably why he is not offering to replace it with a veritable SI3/I1 with excellent cut standards. Often times we hear of people getting stuck with these types of stones sold to them by jewelers of friends, and to hear that you''ve been offered a full refund is pretty uplifting, hence the encouragement to take that money back and run from the vendor...
 

geoffreysnow

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Date: 2/23/2009 2:37:48 PM
Author: mjgarris
Thank you all for your advice. To answer some of your questions and to clarify some things:


The seller was not a PS dealer nor was this an eBay purchase. I purchased the stone from a jeweler in LA that was referred to me by a coworker. (Since I am sure this will be asked, No, I have not informed my coworker of the ordeal. He may or may not have received a lower quality diamond than what he paid but in case he did, he would likely get his looked at. He has a mind clean stone, why ruin it?)


I am not wanting to sue to try to seek monetary benefit. My ideal outcome would be to receive the quality of stone I was told I was buying. Look at the situation in a pure legal perspective. The purchase is a contract and there is a dispute over the fulfillment of this contract. He has made an offer to nullify the contract. I am not satisfied with the offer and he will not consider any other offers.


In regards to the used car analogy, we have lemon laws to protect the consumer from this type of behavior.


I am surprised with the overwhelming majority opinion to just accept the refund. It is commonly mentioned on this forum that this type of behavior is common with e-vendors. Does this not take business from the honest vendors? How else do you stop this type of behavior without suing?

The diamond was sold w/o reputable certification as admitted by you. The claims of clarity were not based on GIA or other certifiable standards, therefore you should feel lucky to even receive a refund.

As an alternative, you should let us know the seller so we can tell him not to give you a refund so you can lose your lawsuit. All the seller has to do is claim he grades all stones that look like yours as "Si3-I1" at his standards, because that is what you purchased.

My guess is that the stone you have was purchased at a price under value for comparable certified stones and you would like to receive a certified stone of that specification at that lower cost. Good luck with that.
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oldminer

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Just figure that this cross section of people who have responded could easily be your jury hearing the case. You'd lose! Take the refund and learn a cheap lesson is great advice. You canmnot come out ahead with a lawsuit such as this might become.
 

beebrisk

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Date: 2/23/2009 2:37:48 PM
Author: mjgarris
Thank you all for your advice. To answer some of your questions and to clarify some things:


The seller was not a PS dealer nor was this an eBay purchase. I purchased the stone from a jeweler in LA that was referred to me by a coworker. (Since I am sure this will be asked, No, I have not informed my coworker of the ordeal. He may or may not have received a lower quality diamond than what he paid but in case he did, he would likely get his looked at. He has a mind clean stone, why ruin it?)


I am not wanting to sue to try to seek monetary benefit. My ideal outcome would be to receive the quality of stone I was told I was buying. Look at the situation in a pure legal perspective. The purchase is a contract and there is a dispute over the fulfillment of this contract. He has made an offer to nullify the contract. I am not satisfied with the offer and he will not consider any other offers.


In regards to the used car analogy, we have lemon laws to protect the consumer from this type of behavior.


I am surprised with the overwhelming majority opinion to just accept the refund. It is commonly mentioned on this forum that this type of behavior is common with e-vendors. Does this not take business from the honest vendors? How else do you stop this type of behavior without suing?


Why would you still trust this guy to do the right thing and exchange it for the correct quality? And why wouldn''t you take the money back? Why after this would you even want him to have the sale? If he exchanges this stone for the "correct" one and you''re not happy with it, he''s likely not to even offer the refund again.

Once burned....

Take the money and talk to a reputable PS vendor who will send you the EXACT stone you pay for.

Good luck.
 

Love Street

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Date: 2/23/2009 2:37:48 PM
Author: mjgarris

I am not wanting to sue to try to seek monetary benefit. My ideal outcome would be to receive the quality of stone I was told I was buying. Look at the situation in a pure legal perspective. The purchase is a contract and there is a dispute over the fulfillment of this contract. He has made an offer to nullify the contract. I am not satisfied with the offer and he will not consider any other offers.

In regards to the used car analogy, we have lemon laws to protect the consumer from this type of behavior.

Lemon Laws really only apply to new cars; with some limited exceptions, if you buy a used car, usually it's buyer beware unless there is some serious misrepresentation.

If it would satisfy your curiosity, why don't you call a lawyer and see what they think of your case? Many plaintiff's attorneys offer free consultations. I have a feeling they would be reluctant to take this one on.

For one thing, you probably wouldn't win under a contracts theory since the seller offered to make you whole (by giving the refund), and usually being made whole is the goal in contracts remedies. You'd have to argue for specific performance, which requires showing more than simply your not being satisfied with his refund offer. A judge would have to agree that there is no other way to remedy this dispute other than forcing the seller to give you a certain diamond, and that seems hard to argue.

Unless there is really some serious, intentional misrepresentation of fact going on (vrsus subjective grading/opinions/scales as the experts have mentioned already), it really seems like you would have a hard time.

But don't consider this legal advice, as I am not a lawyer. Good luck, wahtever you do!
 

lucyandroger

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Date: 2/23/2009 2:37:48 PM
Author: mjgarris
Thank you all for your advice. To answer some of your questions and to clarify some things:

The seller was not a PS dealer nor was this an eBay purchase. I purchased the stone from a jeweler in LA that was referred to me by a coworker. (Since I am sure this will be asked, No, I have not informed my coworker of the ordeal. He may or may not have received a lower quality diamond than what he paid but in case he did, he would likely get his looked at. He has a mind clean stone, why ruin it?)

I am not wanting to sue to try to seek monetary benefit. My ideal outcome would be to receive the quality of stone I was told I was buying. Look at the situation in a pure legal perspective. The purchase is a contract and there is a dispute over the fulfillment of this contract. He has made an offer to nullify the contract. I am not satisfied with the offer and he will not consider any other offers.

In regards to the used car analogy, we have lemon laws to protect the consumer from this type of behavior.

I am surprised with the overwhelming majority opinion to just accept the refund. It is commonly mentioned on this forum that this type of behavior is common with e-vendors. Does this not take business from the honest vendors? How else do you stop this type of behavior without suing?

Here are the two points I think you are missing:

1. You have some responsibility in the matter. You decided to buy a stone that was not certed by a reputable agency without even having it appraised before making the sale final. You didn''t properly educate yourself about diamonds before spending a large sum of hard-earned cash. Be happy that you have now found pricescope where people will steer you towards reputable vendors and teach you what you need to know to make an educated decision.

and

2. The outcome of a lawsuit, even if you won (unlikely), would be a refund. The court would not direct the vendor to find a diamond that meets specifications of a diamond you wished you had gotten. You contracted with the vendor to buy an uncerted stone that was graded by the vendor''s own system and that''s what you got. You don''t get to now say that you want a diamond that meets GIA standards of that color and clarity.


Basically, you made a mistake. Learn from your mistake and move on. Yes, the seller was probably trying to mislead you but you should have educated yourself before making such a large purchase. Get your refund and use Pricesope as a means to finding a better diamond at a fair price! And remember, you get what you pay for!
 

bee*

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Date: 2/23/2009 2:53:01 PM
Author: coatimundi
Date: 2/23/2009 2:37:48 PM

Author: mjgarris



I am not wanting to sue to try to seek monetary benefit. My ideal outcome would be to receive the quality of stone I was told I was buying. Look at the situation in a pure legal perspective. The purchase is a contract and there is a dispute over the fulfillment of this contract. He has made an offer to nullify the contract. I am not satisfied with the offer and he will not consider any other offers.


You purchased an uncertified I1 diamond. One vendor may call that an I1 and another an I3--that can be subjective from vendor to vendor without a CERT. I really don''t see how you would have legal recourse on an UNcertified stone. I1 is in the realm of eye visible inclusions. A legal squabble over the varying degrees of inclusions in an I clarity stone does not make sense to me--especially since you were offered a full refund.


Take the refund, and buy from another vendor. Simple.

ditto coati! I''d definitely take the refund.
 

Dancing Fire

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and...he better pray the refund goes smoothly.
 

Sharon101

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I would like to agree with all the very sound advice you recieved here. I would also like to add that the stone you bought is a very low quality no matter how you want to dice it up. SI3- P1 is going to be pretty visually flawed and definately not eyeclean. Once you are buying in that category, its not going to be pretty. I think its getting really close to not being gem quality at all.



To argue for a better (Si3 - P1) stone is sort of like splitting hairs, especially when at that level they would all be not eye clean imo.
 

purrfectpear

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Date: 2/23/2009 7:16:07 PM
Author: Sharon101
I would like to agree with all the very sound advice you recieved here. I would also like to add that the stone you bought is a very low quality no matter how you want to dice it up. SI3- P1 is going to be pretty visually flawed and definately not eyeclean. Once you are buying in that category, its not going to be pretty. I think its getting really close to not being gem quality at all.



To argue for a better (Si3 - P1) stone is sort of like splitting hairs, especially when at that level they would all be not eye clean imo.
The irony here is that the OP intentionally purchased a diamond in a grade so low, that as you said most would consider highly included, yet they liked the stone after seeing it first hand until they got a jewelers opinion. They didn''t reject it because of how it looked, but because a jeweler said it didn''t measure up to advertised quality.

I''m having a hard time wrapping my mind around someone who looked at an SI3-I1 diamond and "thought it looked OK" and now thinks they''re entitled to anything more than a full refund
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Sharon101

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Date: 2/23/2009 8:33:24 PM
Author: purrfectpear

Date: 2/23/2009 7:16:07 PM
Author: Sharon101
I would like to agree with all the very sound advice you recieved here. I would also like to add that the stone you bought is a very low quality no matter how you want to dice it up. SI3- P1 is going to be pretty visually flawed and definately not eyeclean. Once you are buying in that category, its not going to be pretty. I think its getting really close to not being gem quality at all.



To argue for a better (Si3 - P1) stone is sort of like splitting hairs, especially when at that level they would all be not eye clean imo.
The irony here is that the OP intentionally purchased a diamond in a grade so low, that as you said most would consider highly included, yet they liked the stone after seeing it first hand until they got a jewelers opinion. They didn''t reject it because of how it looked, but because a jeweler said it didn''t measure up to advertised quality.

I''m having a hard time wrapping my mind around someone who looked at an SI3-I1 diamond and ''thought it looked OK'' and now thinks they''re entitled to anything more than a full refund
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Maybe they are imagining a court ordering for the vendor to give them a proper SI1-I1 diamond.
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elle_chris

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Date: 2/23/2009 8:33:24 PM
Author: purrfectpear

The irony here is that the OP intentionally purchased a diamond in a grade so low, that as you said most would consider highly included, yet they liked the stone after seeing it first hand until they got a jewelers opinion. They didn''t reject it because of how it looked, but because a jeweler said it didn''t measure up to advertised quality.

I''m having a hard time wrapping my mind around someone who looked at an SI3-I1 diamond and ''thought it looked OK'' and now thinks they''re entitled to anything more than a full refund
33.gif
yeah, I don''t get it either...
 
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