Light return of a diamond

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

DiaGem consider you have been claiming that cut quality is an over priced quality, and people should not pay 20% premiums for "ideal cut".

Well if cut quality is over priced, then you would chose the F VS2. I would reject everything that was not well cut (full stop).
I would set a price limit, and say I might be able to buy F SI1 well cut, and G VS2 well cut. The difference is that my customers when they are out sitting at a restaraunt next to your customers will be able to see that your diamonds do not sparkle as much.

The time that I keep the supplier waiting is also less - because I can grade the whole parcel of 20 stones for cut quality twice as fast as you can grade color and clarity. I only grade the color, and then the clarity of the stones that remain (likey 5-50% of the parcel, depending on the manufacturer.

So my process is quicker and leads to selection of more beautiful diamonds and repeat business.

Your process leads to higher appraisals, and possibly more initial profit.

So there you have it.

My suppliers have learned that to do business with me means that I often do not "weaken the parcel", so the remainder is sold at the regular price, and over time my picking premiums have fallen.

Once I was able to select 1/2 the parcel. Sent them back to the vendor (seperated) and asked for a price on each parcel seperately. He gave me a lower price on the one I selected because he did not know which one I wanted - true story from March this year

 

[diagem]

Nice try Garry, but no cigar yet.

a- you forgot about the g-si1 quality in the parcel, ouch!!
b- you are 100% right, your clients would be siting in a restaurant with ideal made stones, but it gets me to the begining again, THE ORDINARY CONSUMER WILL NOT, I REPEAT, WILL NOT NOTICE MORE OF A SPARKLE ON THE NEIGHBORS WELL MADE STONE (perhaps not ideal, but well made)
c- it wouldnt be my clients, i am not your competiton, and i have no special interest in sharing my diamond expertise.
I am not selling anything on this site, just trying to give good advice for FREE that i believe in strongly.

For the discussion sake, i dont mind arguing with you, if i am wrong, i will profit from your advice.

please dont put my oppinion down, we are in a forum of cultural discusion, lets keep it on that level.

I do honestly think you are a profesional on your subject, and would have no problem discusing issue's with you on this or any open forum, I hope you will think of my oppinions the same....

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I am very happy to discuss cut any time DG

I do not offer or trade with people on this site, other than free or low cost tools for cut grading etc. This business runs at a loss, and has done so for many years. My role is purely educational.

Some people think I have a worthy opinion on this issue

Some even think I am proffessional

(nutty, but not silly

)

 

[Daniela]

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On 10/26/2004 9:02:22 AM diagem wrote:






Nice try Garry, but no cigar yet.

a- you forgot about the g-si1 quality in the parcel, ouch!!
b- you are 100% right, your clients would be siting in a restaurant with ideal made stones, but it gets me to the begining again, THE ORDINARY CONSUMER WILL NOT, I REPEAT, WILL NOT NOTICE MORE OF A SPARKLE ON THE NEIGHBORS WELL MADE STONE (perhaps not ideal, but well made)

----------------

I just want to point out the people sitting across the table aren't going to notice the difference between your F VVS and the G SI-1, either, that you seem not to favour.

 

[nicknomo]

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On 10/25/2004 5:32:20 PM diagem wrote:

Pick exactly what i was chosing, Based first on color and then on clarity.

I personaly dont favor H and below, and not VS2 and below.

the cut would matter last. ----------------

So you would disregard cut altogether? It wouldn't matter how sparkly, shiny or bright the diamond was?

It might make sense from a business perspective, as most people would look at color size and clarity, and get a percievably better deal. I mean you can't really knock a business man for trying to maximize profits. It's not like the people aren't willing to pay for it.

This really is just a supply/demand argument. Low supply of quality cut diamonds, and the argument is just how much of a demand there is for higher cut quality. No one should fault you for having a different opinion of course. I just think a lot of people here might have a different view

 

[diagem]

Now days, most of the diamonds that are cut are cut to decent+ proportions. Not only the consumer is more educated, the jewelers are too (something that was not a fact as near as 5 years ago)

For a manufacturer to pay the very high prices of rough today, he knows he needs to come up with decent+ makes, otherwise he will not turn over his diamonds and will have to close up shop, AS IT HAPENS EVERYDAY. everyday a lot of manufacturers are droping out of the game. Now thats what i call natural movement towards supplying a good and fair product to the consumer.

But again, I still cant justify paying SO MUCH MORE for the ideal cuts.

Regarding the vvs or si comment, yes nobody cant see the difference in the jewel especialy when on the wearer, but thats allready a question of economics.

One thing i can guarantee you, you will always get top $ for a high quality diamond, and not on an average one...

 

[diagem]

thank you, i take it as a compliment...

and may i add, nicely said.

keep tuning in, i hope it for the long term.

 

[nicknomo]

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On 10/26/2004 10:40:30 AM diagem wrote:

Now days, most of the diamonds that are cut are cut to decent+ proportions. Not only the consumer is more educated, the jewelers are too (something that was not a fact as near as 5 years ago)

For a manufacturer to pay the very high prices of rough today, he knows he needs to come up with decent+ makes, otherwise he will not turn over his diamonds and will have to close up shop, AS IT HAPENS EVERYDAY. everyday a lot of manufacturers are droping out of the game. Now thats what i call natural movement towards supplying a good and fair product to the consumer.

But again, I still cant justify paying SO MUCH MORE for the ideal cuts.

Regarding the vvs or si comment, yes nobody cant see the difference in the jewel especialy when on the wearer, but thats allready a question of economics.

One thing i can guarantee you, you will always get top $ for a high quality diamond, and not on an average one...----------------

I don't think it's much different though than buying for color or clarity. You will get a similar effect on price dropping from F Vs1 to G Vs2. Can you notice a difference? Most people probably do not.

For me the difference of going to H&A ideal from average "good cut" was about ~12%. Not a huge difference in price, but still a noticeable difference. I'm not sure that is all that outrageous. I know stones with very high color and very high clarity will command even more of a mark up, but if we are arguing about the average consumer here, most don't go for those stones. For the scope of this discussion I believe most consumers go with stone G-K color VS1-I1 clarity. In these fields, the price difference between ideal and non-ideal isn't quite as big of a gap as we would have with an E vvs1 stone.

Honestly though, I would have gotten hosed from my local jewelers and got an average stone for almost the same price that I bought my ideal diamond online for (a lot less if you include the tax I didn't pay). In that respect I don't actually feel like I paid a premium at all.

As for your comment about the general quality of the stones being sold today, from my experiences the bulk of stones I saw were not cut all that well. Location, local retailers, etc probably have a lot to do with this, but I'm skeptical of any statement saying most jewelers carry "well" cut stones. In the beginning I saw a lot of bad stones, and I don't mean just on paper. They were dull, little fire, little scintillation, little brilliance. Don't get me wrong, they looked nice, but not great.

My fiance didn't educate herself on any of the "techno mumbo jumbo". She was the real judge, and the non biased pair of eyes. We must have looked at 30 stones or so before actually seeing and ideal stone. She had no idea what a crown and/or pavillion angle was, and she told me "Wowww... I want something that sparkles like that!".

If your claim is that most jewelers sell "well" cut stones, and they are basically indistinguishable from ideal diamonds, then you should consider that this may not be the case in many places. I can assure you it certainly isn't the case by me. I do think that a well cut stone can look just as nice as an ideal cut stone, so I'm inclined to think many retailers sell only good or fair cuts. I also think that you are more likely to get a nice looking stone by eliminating "average" cuts on paper; it seemed to work for me... but hey that's just my opinion; what do i know?

 

[solange]

You may get top dollar if you want to resell a fabulous D flawless stone. If I had been looking for that I would have gone to the Magnificent Jewlery sales at Sotheby's or Christie's or to Harry Winston. But then you are running into the six figure amount if the stone is of significant size.

Most of us on Pricescope are buying what you are referring to as average stones. Diamonds in this category are a poor investment, I agree. I was looking for a stone that pleased me, knowing that I would take a tremendous loss if I tried to resell it.

I studied the tutorials, learned a lot and found a Pricescope vendor, Whiteflash, that I felt I could trust. I had spent several weeks looking in the Diamond District and saw some very poorly proportioned stones-either very shallow with a large spread or very deep with little life and poor spread. I also felt that some of the dealers were very aggressive and anxious to sell what they had in stock. One dealer tried to sell me a 7 1/2 carat stone for $43,000. It had no certification but there must have been something wrong with the stone if he could sell it at such a low price including a platinum and diamond mounting.

I was not looking for investment quality because I am not planning to resell my ring. There are better investments than diamonds, especially when you consider the cost of insurance on a fabulous gem. I just wanted the nicest stone I could get at a good price and I am very pleased with my ring. It has excellent proportions and is very bright and sparkly although it is not a top color or clarity. I get many compliments from across a room when I wear it. And it does not have to sit in a vault.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

DiaGem I disagree and the weight of evidence supports the fact that most diamonds are not well cut.
Granted there have been improvements, but we still have not come close to the point where 1/2 the diamonds are even close to well cut.

And why?

I beleive it is simply because you and others with your buying procedures, and lack of interest in, or the understanding of cut grading cause a lack of demand.

The reason I asked the question I did, was to find out if you would use cut as a selection criteria. You seem to believe that there is a 20% premium for fine make. You are wrong. The premium can be very little if you simply pick the well cut stones for your self.

It is only if you select the stones that have been specifically cut, labeled, graded etc, as H&A's or AGS 0 that there is such a premium. I have no problem however finding very fine makes by sorting with my ideal-scope from manufacturers with good equipment. About 1/3rd of which are very good H&A's simply by accident.

 

[diagem]

I hope you are talking about round shapes, in this case i contess you, the majority of round diamond manufacturing is shifting into the mega companies, these companies are number's companies, they identified that for them to move loads of goods, there are no shortcuts!!! They cant afford to save weight for profit interests, they employ workers usualy certified GG on big quality control salaries.

About the small manufacturers who are disapearing, they have no choice, they need to save the weight to survive
and they are slowly diminishing. So anyway you look at it the goods are getting much, much finer as far as makes...

Garry, I never quoted 20%, please!!!

And i am very surprised, i thought you wouldnt fall in this one.... IF you can find 30% accidentall H&A makes in a parcell of an average parcel production, that proves my point and it means so litle about tools (it does mean that the companies invests in hightech and tools), but it realy means that the cutters who work for serious manufacturers are working under strict regulations to produce finer makes, an example that didnt exist a couple of years ago. Again you must agree with me that the cutting and polishing procedures are the simplest on round shape diamonds rather than fine fancy cuts.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Yes I mean round brill's

You said 20% in this quote on page 2
"Anyways I dont think the consumer should pay for other interested people. I imagine that you could get a beautifull not ideal cut diamond for Appr. 20% off"

And what i said was that using my selection criteria where i have cleaned the parcel of idea-scope diamonds - that i sometimes get 30% as H&A's.
But in fact I reject 50% to 90% for cut.

I think your arguements are all over the place DiaGem.

And as for insider knowledge of large factories etc - I have good reltionships with some of them - especially the ones that attended the First International Diamond Cut Conference in May. They cut for what people like you buy. You buy for what you can sell. Here at Pricescope we educate people not to buy that quality. So we will prevail, because AGS and now GIA are also going to introduce new better cut standards and you will not be able to sell diamonds that say 2nd 3rd fourth and fifth best grade on the diamond grading report.

I know that GIA have had a number of diamond dealers actively trying to encourage them to not only NOT PUT CUT GRADES on a report--but to PUT LESS INFORMATION on reports! GIA will leave behind these dinosaurs and because like us, it is concerned with consumers and the trade’s integrity.
Regardless of whether or Sergeyand myself, Marty Haske, Peter Yantzer from AGSL, the WTOCD from HRD, and others do not always agree with how GIA have done their research there, is a fundamental opposition to cut grades in any form.

We would respectfully like to suggest you try some new ways of thinking / looking etc (I include GIA in this collective "we" because I know people there who share this belief) at the cut issue.

If you have not ever used an ideal-scope, then I would warmly invite you to give it a go. You will find a wealth of information (for retailers and manufacturers) at the website. And regarding suggestions that this is an attempt to get $25 out of your pocket, and into mine, please believe me, I do not work the hours I do on this for $$'s. I have a very successful 2 store B&M business that makes the cut business possible.

 

[diagem]

I quoted 20% less from ideal makes to fine makes.

and the difference can go higher depends on the size and color and quality... ( for example a 2,75 ct. e-vvs1)I thing will fetch a larger premium, do you agree?

Garry, why do you think i am a buyer of round diamonds? you keep pointing me out..., by the way you buy for what you can sell too...,

As far as the new and better cut standard by the GIA or AGS, i understood that the parameters are widening, so out of the nearly ideal cut diamonds, 37 % will find themselves within the ideal criteria, am i right? if so then they lowered the standard...

I know A number of diamond dealers that dont pay their bills, that doesnt make all diamond dealers bad..., Diamond dealers are having a very tough time in these day's.
I on the other hand am happy with whats going on today in the business, you have to be a pro, expert, at what you do, there is no more room for amateurs in this business, which means a lot of players are going out of the game, and the experts can start to br creative. Remember the future of the diamond business will depend on SMALL PEOPLE WITH BIG IDEAS. big people with small ideas are OUT!!!!!



Gemological Labratorie staff are ""theory" educated people with their oppinions, I've personaly seen their decision overturned many a times, they still are not the experts on diamonds in my oppinion...on the contrary, since they are swamped with overload of work, they dont stop making mistakes...and a lot of dirty laundry is in these places... if you get my drift... but thats for another discussion.

I am new in this forum but When we will get to know each other more, I think you will be surprised at what I do in the business. one thing i can let you know, I havent touched a round brilliant diamond for over a half a decade..., And yes in my business its all about the cut!!
But not the ideal round brilliant

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

AGS have tightened and broadened their range of proportions. They will no longer allow steep deep stones. And they will allow tables from 47$ to 61% and crowns from 32 to 36. But they must be with the correct pavilion angles etc.
There are some live htreads and you can compare their new grades to mine. Their new system looks like mine. (I assume you know what HCA is - the drop down box under TOOLS in the top right tool bar on this page DiaGem

 

[diagem]

Isnt a 57% table with a 36 degree crown and let say a 41 degree pavillion considered a steep round?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

You can see the 36 crown angle comes with an under 40.5 pavilion angle.
GIA will have similar proportioned stones.
I need some time to digest the article and find ways to represent the vagueness of it all though

 

[diagem]

in that case, a 36.5 crown and a 40 pavillion should fall into the same category, no?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Inside the white zone on the chart is the new AGS candidates for 55% table. This is the only one we are allowed to show that they have published.

36.5 and 40 is outside the box DG.

Do not be surprised though, if they have AGS 2's all the way to 40 degree crown angle, with pavilion angles below 40

 

[diagem]

you dont agree that a 39-40 degree crown angle with a 40 degree pav. angle, can be considered a fine make?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

My opinion is clear if you read the colour scale on the top right side of the chart.

 

[diagem]

Like i said, i dont know what makes the ideal round, an ideal stone. But i know in fancy cuts, you can increase your crown angle (according to my oppinion to over 40 degrees, at the same time decrease your pavilion angle to below 40 degrees, and still get a gorgeous, lively, sparkly diamond. I knoe that the pacilion angle is critical at 41 degrees, but i do have some friends that cut rounds up tp 64+% total depth and still get the H&A effect...

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

you can have H&A's below 25 degree crown (the arrows look a bit different - there is a big open table reflection) but the pavilion must be around 42 degrees.
Very bright stones.

 

[diagem]

That is a spready stone, and as closer the table is to the culet, the bigger the table reflects in the stone, but what is the maximum depth of a deep stone to have the H&A effect?

Does a r/s with 65% t.d. + 37 degree crown+ a 40 degree minus pav. have the same h&a effects?

I must admit i saw some realy deep r/s with h&a effects.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

A reasonable looking stone. It could have a smaller table and therefore a thinner girdle.
It will work. But the spread (bottom right corner) is 21% worse than a normal nice Tolkowsky stone.

 

[diagem]

so the big difference is the spread, but not all consumers know the mm. size of a nice one carat, it goes from appr. 5.7-6.6 mm.

so the consumer can think that he's purchasing an h&a stone, and he is but a 6 mm. 1 carat spread. am i right?

The labs like GIA, AGS etc. will issue a cert with V.G. to EX for symmetry, and polish as long as its realy the case...

and the performance of the diamond will almost be the same as a 60/60 r/s

 

[valeria101]

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On 10/27/2004 6:15:55 AM diagem wrote:



in fancy cuts, you can increase your crown angle (according to my oppinion to over 40 degrees, at the same time decrease your pavilion angle to below 40 degrees, and still get a gorgeous, lively, sparkly diamond.

----------------

Would it be possible to see such a piece in flesh ? Are these usual encounters at all ? If so, what shape ?
The model works alright but a 3D drawing never looks quite like a diamond.

I hope this is just a click away for you...

 

[diagem]

sorry, no pics, but most of the fancy brilliant, or mixed cuts can work, on one condition, you must know the right shaping, and the right combination of angles...

Also if you look at most large Old-Mine Cuts (large i mean 10 ct++) their crown angles are usualy way over 40 degrees, and their pavilions are in the range of 48 - 35 degrees.

And in my oppinion they look amazing!!!

 

[diagem]

the lucida is a diamond with a very steep crown and a relatively shalow pavilion, and looks great, dont you guy,s agree?

It has a step facet crown though, and a 1/2 step, and 1/2 brilliant faceting pavilion. but against all the idealists, it still looks like a flashy, sparkly diamond.

It is a litle small as far as diameter, but you cant realy compare to round shapes... princess, and Asschers are too considered smaller in the diameter range...