Light return of a diamond
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A diamond that was not pretty would lack certain important factors. The way a diamond alters light has a great deal to do with overall beauty although it is not everything.
Whatever lighting you have in the room with a diamond is 100%. How much light goes into the stone is contolled by how much light is available. How much light comes back to your eye is the Light Return Efficiency or Brilliance. It will not be more than 100%, but somewhat less. The more the better.
If you have mirror and it reflects light to your eye, you have perfect brilliancy, but no scintillation. Let's take that mirror and break it into 17 pieces and glue them back at slightly differing angles. Now, the light back to your eye is not 100%, but it dances and sparkles. This is scintillation. 17 facets on a single cut diamond. If you take the same mirror and break it into 57 pieces you will have lots more potential sparkle from the many different pieces. This might represent a full cut round brilliant diamond. If you further break the mirror into 150 pieces you might find the sparkle is too small in size and has lost some of its appeal. It may scintillate more, but not look so right. This is way over simplified, but please try to see the example rather than the science.
Scintillation may be too little, just right, or too high. In the correct balance, it works best and makes for the most beauty. Beauty is subjective, but scintillation or sparkle can be measured.
Then there is Pattern or Intensity. This is how well the object stands out from its environment. Fairy dust, sparkling in the air is not as beautiful as a compact, brillant and scintillating object. One can measure intensity based on how much light and dark there is against the surface area of the object. It is a measure of object recognition. Again, the appreciation of this is subjective. Too little and we have the fairy dust scenario, too much and we have no scintillation, just brilliancy. We need a balanced amount to have maximum beauty potential.
Lastly, there is Fire or Dispersion. This is a measure of how much light is broken into spectral colors. Diamond does not show a high amount of dispersion when normally cut, but there is some. Few people complain there is ever too much, and those who buy emerald cuts probably don't want much. Some diamonds are cut to bring out more fire. It can be measured, but some of us have reservations that the measurement has any effect on our universal judgment of beauty. The jury is out on this one still. It may be important to you, but not to all of us. It is like asking if a woman with red hair is more beautiful than a woman with black hair. To some it may matter, we can measure it, but can we determine if it is important to everyone? I personally don't think so, but others may disagree.
I think these are simple examples which will go a long way in understanding the importance of light when it comes to diamonds.
Whatever lighting you have in the room with a diamond is 100%. How much light goes into the stone is contolled by how much light is available. How much light comes back to your eye is the Light Return Efficiency or Brilliance. It will not be more than 100%, but somewhat less. The more the better.
If you have mirror and it reflects light to your eye, you have perfect brilliancy, but no scintillation. Let's take that mirror and break it into 17 pieces and glue them back at slightly differing angles. Now, the light back to your eye is not 100%, but it dances and sparkles. This is scintillation. 17 facets on a single cut diamond. If you take the same mirror and break it into 57 pieces you will have lots more potential sparkle from the many different pieces. This might represent a full cut round brilliant diamond. If you further break the mirror into 150 pieces you might find the sparkle is too small in size and has lost some of its appeal. It may scintillate more, but not look so right. This is way over simplified, but please try to see the example rather than the science.
Scintillation may be too little, just right, or too high. In the correct balance, it works best and makes for the most beauty. Beauty is subjective, but scintillation or sparkle can be measured.
Then there is Pattern or Intensity. This is how well the object stands out from its environment. Fairy dust, sparkling in the air is not as beautiful as a compact, brillant and scintillating object. One can measure intensity based on how much light and dark there is against the surface area of the object. It is a measure of object recognition. Again, the appreciation of this is subjective. Too little and we have the fairy dust scenario, too much and we have no scintillation, just brilliancy. We need a balanced amount to have maximum beauty potential.
Lastly, there is Fire or Dispersion. This is a measure of how much light is broken into spectral colors. Diamond does not show a high amount of dispersion when normally cut, but there is some. Few people complain there is ever too much, and those who buy emerald cuts probably don't want much. Some diamonds are cut to bring out more fire. It can be measured, but some of us have reservations that the measurement has any effect on our universal judgment of beauty. The jury is out on this one still. It may be important to you, but not to all of us. It is like asking if a woman with red hair is more beautiful than a woman with black hair. To some it may matter, we can measure it, but can we determine if it is important to everyone? I personally don't think so, but others may disagree.
I think these are simple examples which will go a long way in understanding the importance of light when it comes to diamonds.
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Thank you, I started reading some of the comments you had with the other two g.g.'s. But it got to scientific for me.
I do a\have another question for you if i may.
Do you believe int the Perfect Round diamond, like the AGS 0 or triple zero or even hearts and arrows?
Gem
I do a\have another question for you if i may.
Do you believe int the Perfect Round diamond, like the AGS 0 or triple zero or even hearts and arrows?
Gem
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I am a big beleiver in quality cut diamonds. These fine cuts do perform very well and are at the top of the game. You pay more for the best.... If your budget dictates a compromise, take a look at the range of diamonds in AGA 2A cut class and they will still please most people and cost less.
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Perfection may exist in another universe.
D Flawless is as close as we grade to perfection - but very few are cut well because it is considered wasteful to cut them smaller than they need to be to look round. People do not need to look at a D F - they can get a great effect by simply knowing it is D IF.
But if you want a nice diamond to look at - then it should be well cut. none of the measures you mentioned will guarantee that.
Pay Dave and I a total of $25 plus shipping and go hunting perfection here and you will find that there are many near perfectly cut diamonds - nearly 10% of those on the market
D Flawless is as close as we grade to perfection - but very few are cut well because it is considered wasteful to cut them smaller than they need to be to look round. People do not need to look at a D F - they can get a great effect by simply knowing it is D IF.
But if you want a nice diamond to look at - then it should be well cut. none of the measures you mentioned will guarantee that.
Pay Dave and I a total of $25 plus shipping and go hunting perfection here and you will find that there are many near perfectly cut diamonds - nearly 10% of those on the market
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Now, why would you need anybody's advice to know what your own taste is ?
The tool to measure "beauty" is always a notch above your own nose
no offense...
no offense, but it really isn't all that complicated. The tutorial might be a lot for someone the first time they read it. I'd reccommend reading it a few times to get a good grasp on it. It really isn't all that complicated, and most people can figure it out.
It just helps you understand the needed criteria when picking out a stone. Picking out a diamond is more subjective than scientific, but this is as close as you can get to making it scientific. If you don't want to go by this, then try the "does it look pretty" strategy.
It just helps you understand the needed criteria when picking out a stone. Picking out a diamond is more subjective than scientific, but this is as close as you can get to making it scientific. If you don't want to go by this, then try the "does it look pretty" strategy.
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"Pay Dave and I a total of $25 plus shipping and go hunting perfection here and you will find that there are many near perfectly cut diamonds - nearly 10% of those on the market
The HCA and Ideal-Scope Cut Quality Crusader!"
I am sorry, maybe i missunderstood, but when Garry typed "pay Dave and I..." I assumed he ment you.
The HCA and Ideal-Scope Cut Quality Crusader!"
I am sorry, maybe i missunderstood, but when Garry typed "pay Dave and I..." I assumed he ment you.
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Sounds philosophical
You may or may not get any valuable clues from understanding someone elses' opinion (or IdealScope).
Can't you just look at a few dozen diamonds and decide which is lovelier ? There is no other use to diamonds than their good looks, so why bother get any explanation of what you see?
This really is a question.
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That was Garry with sort of a thoughtless posting. It was NOT me. I do sell the Ideal-Scope for Garry in the USA, but my lenghty response to you was totally neutral and non-commercial. Garry's post in this thread is out of place.
Don't blame me.
Don't blame me.
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----------------
On 10/22/2004 9:34:09 AM gemofaguy wrote:
I am wandering, are you both trying to sell me an instrument that will show me what a beautiful diamond is considered for me? I thought I will get some honest information here...
with respect,
----------------
Hi Gemguy:
With respect, I would like add a comment or two--and in writing as much I acknowledge that I am a stranger to you in an open forum and in exercising your basic rights and privledges you will 'take information what you want and leave the rest'--that of the many excellent contributors on this PS site, the two informed posters, Valerie101 and OldMiner, would be about the LAST two people that would attempt to recruit you into buying something through an educational "ruse". And although I have not the pretension to the kind of arrogance which consists of believing I know what you think or understand; I dare say Sir, in suggesting Ana or Dave is trying to sell you something is to have completely misunderstood their intention.
Please correct me if I am in error--as ever I am happy to be wrong.
cheers
Sharon
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Ok Sharon, I am sorry: They didnt try to sell me......!
And you are absolutly right, I should be looking at things the way you want me too.
For your info. Oldminer didnt thing as you, and i still respected his comments.
I will again appologize to you, please accept my apology.
And you are absolutly right, I should be looking at things the way you want me too.
For your info. Oldminer didnt thing as you, and i still respected his comments.
I will again appologize to you, please accept my apology.
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HI:
One of the drawbacks of asynchrounous tech--we type at the same time but messages get ranked thru timing--I think all is "clear" now, and no apologies to me personally are necessary. But thanks nonetheless. Hope you find the answers to the questions you seek.
cheers
Sharon
One of the drawbacks of asynchrounous tech--we type at the same time but messages get ranked thru timing--I think all is "clear" now, and no apologies to me personally are necessary. But thanks nonetheless. Hope you find the answers to the questions you seek.
cheers
Sharon
Jennifer5973
Ideal_Rock
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Dave, I just want to say I really learned a lot from your explanation above--great analogies/examples. Thanks as always, for the benefit of your knowledge.
moremoremore
Ideal_Rock
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I agree J-Flo!. That was a wonderful post Dave...as usual...but particularly meaningful...I think that it should be put in the DT book if it isn't already included.
DIAGEM- read Dave's post again. Your question has been answered.
DIAGEM- read Dave's post again. Your question has been answered.
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I agree 100% with your statement diagem. They are like observing art creations. In answer to your question, yes, there are tools (including but not exclusive to eyes alone) for observing the art that goes into the cutting. Is it these kind of things you'd like to discuss in this thread?
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diaGem i happen to honestly believe in the product.
I run ideal-scope and other cut oriented businesses as a business only because I happen to have a rather successful jewelery business that can fund the losses I make in the Cut biz.
If it is shameless spruking then it is shamless spruking. but that shameless spruking has helped thousands of people buy nicely cut diamonds. You might also notice that the patent pending HCA is free - any idea how much a patent costs?
I run ideal-scope and other cut oriented businesses as a business only because I happen to have a rather successful jewelery business that can fund the losses I make in the Cut biz.
If it is shameless spruking then it is shamless spruking. but that shameless spruking has helped thousands of people buy nicely cut diamonds. You might also notice that the patent pending HCA is free - any idea how much a patent costs?
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Again i respect your oppinion, but i disagree with the fact that human eyes need a tool to show them a beautiful diamond, I strongly believe that it is imposible to say that a diamond that wont have the right signs visualy according to the tools specification, makes it a poorly cut diamond.
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And you can go from shop to shop, day time and night time and remember which stone is best?
I can not line up 10 stones best to worst as accurately or quickly with my experianced eyes in 3 different lightings as any novice can with their first usage of the ideal-scope after 10 minutes practice.
It is a controled and structured portable lighting environment that also shows optical symmetry quality.
Sorry I got you off side, but dont shoot the product
I can not line up 10 stones best to worst as accurately or quickly with my experianced eyes in 3 different lightings as any novice can with their first usage of the ideal-scope after 10 minutes practice.
It is a controled and structured portable lighting environment that also shows optical symmetry quality.
Sorry I got you off side, but dont shoot the product
Well if you don't believe in using tools, and you don't like being scientific about it, there is not much else to do .. other than walk around and pick out a diamond you think looks the best.
The purpose of the ideal scope is to measure the light leakage from the diamond. The less light leakage, the brighter the shine (more light reflected back at you).
I do think there is a lot more to a diamonds beauty than light return. In a post long ago I said something to the effect of "If you want maximum light return, then get a mirror". I got flamed... but I think scintillation and fire is what really makes a diamond stand out. That's just my opinion...
Of course light return does greatly enhance the qualities of the diamond, and this is where the ideal scope comes in. If you like this quality (good light return), the ideal scope detects it and gives you an easier basis to compare stones. If this light return quality doesn't matter to you, then you don't need to use the tool. If you are trained enough to rate stones in this respect without the ideal scope, then you don't need the tool.
The point is, you only need the tool if it finds what you desire (or makes it easier to).
Personally, I think the most important thing is to educate yourself on the points in the tutorial. You may not be able to find all your information here, but it's a great start and will help you avoid bad stones. This helped me a great deal, as in the beginning I was looking at all third rate stones, and had no idea anything better existed. When I finally started seeing ideal stones I was blown away and couldn't fathom the thought of looking at another piece of junk that was cut for size & weight.
Don't reject the science, it is very useful.
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Guy,s
In my oppinion an ideal diamond doesnt exists, the proportions that have to be applied to get an ideal diamond out to the consumer market, produces a fact that a jeweler can use a large quantity of diamonds of the same resemblence. (but on close up every diamond still looks different, there is no such thing as identical diamonds)
One think i think the consumer ought to know is that since the whole ideal invention came out, the consumers are paying much more than for similar diamonds thatdont fall in the ideal category.
Its more costly to cut an ideal made diamond than a diamond of similar (maybe even beter) proportions.
By the way, every diamond has light leakage, depends at what angle the diamond is being observed and by which individual.
Again i am stating my oppinion.
In my oppinion an ideal diamond doesnt exists, the proportions that have to be applied to get an ideal diamond out to the consumer market, produces a fact that a jeweler can use a large quantity of diamonds of the same resemblence. (but on close up every diamond still looks different, there is no such thing as identical diamonds)
One think i think the consumer ought to know is that since the whole ideal invention came out, the consumers are paying much more than for similar diamonds thatdont fall in the ideal category.
Its more costly to cut an ideal made diamond than a diamond of similar (maybe even beter) proportions.
By the way, every diamond has light leakage, depends at what angle the diamond is being observed and by which individual.
Again i am stating my oppinion.
Hello,
thought i'd share this since we're on the topic of whether the tools are useful or not.
i've been wondering if the stone i bought was ok. I only used my eyes when i bought it (somewhat impulsive. it looked really good in-store)
then had a bit of buyer's regret after when i put the dimensions through HCA and got a score of 2.8
the question of whether i got a good stone was eating me up. so finally i ordered an idealscope and received it today. immediately used it to examine my stone. I have to say, the HCA was quite accurate in predicting a fair bit of leakage. but because it isnt completely symmetrical... the leakage isnt too bad thanks to the crazy angles i'm guessing?
but the thing is, when i look (with my naked eyes) at my stone against the camparison CZ, it looked equally good inspite of the fact that my stone has a
"lousier" HCA score and the fact that it isnt perfectly symmetrical.
If i had to do it again, i'd definitely use the idealscope for any future purchases... but its a tool. use it wisely.
now the loupe.... that's a dangerous tool! i think i found an additional facet not listed in my cert!!!
garry, the cz looks so good i'm tempted to set it instead!
thought i'd share this since we're on the topic of whether the tools are useful or not.
i've been wondering if the stone i bought was ok. I only used my eyes when i bought it (somewhat impulsive. it looked really good in-store)
then had a bit of buyer's regret after when i put the dimensions through HCA and got a score of 2.8
the question of whether i got a good stone was eating me up. so finally i ordered an idealscope and received it today. immediately used it to examine my stone. I have to say, the HCA was quite accurate in predicting a fair bit of leakage. but because it isnt completely symmetrical... the leakage isnt too bad thanks to the crazy angles i'm guessing?
but the thing is, when i look (with my naked eyes) at my stone against the camparison CZ, it looked equally good inspite of the fact that my stone has a
"lousier" HCA score and the fact that it isnt perfectly symmetrical.
If i had to do it again, i'd definitely use the idealscope for any future purchases... but its a tool. use it wisely.
now the loupe.... that's a dangerous tool! i think i found an additional facet not listed in my cert!!!
garry, the cz looks so good i'm tempted to set it instead!
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See what i mean, This is a classy case of a consumer who enters a jewelry store, looks at a diamond out of a noumerous i presume, and decides to chose one and purchase it.
It looked good when the consumer was in the store and he bought it...., why all of a sudden he needs to find out how much leakage it has, and at the same time try out a tool which tells him he's been had.
I believe if you bought the diamond that you like, enjoy it, its a real few million years diamond (not a CZ).
It looked good when the consumer was in the store and he bought it...., why all of a sudden he needs to find out how much leakage it has, and at the same time try out a tool which tells him he's been had.
I believe if you bought the diamond that you like, enjoy it, its a real few million years diamond (not a CZ).
diagem,
i think the tools are useful. For one, i am somewhat confident of being able to identify my stone with a loupe. sadly, i noticed an extra facet (i should have learnt to use a loupe before i went out shopping!) this is why a tool can be useful!
For someone who is going out to buy a stone, i'd say read up on the tutorials, get yourself a loupe and learn how to use it. its invaluable!
i think its more dangerous to depend on the jeweller's word alone. certainly u have your expert jewellers, but there are also others who arent as informed. mine kept saying it is a "very good" cut, simply because it was the grading given by the lab on the report.
when i asked him about the 0.09mm difference in the L x W, he said oh, that's the min max range... not the actual diam. this of course, turned out to be wrong, so my stone is not as round as i might have liked.
i dont think the HCA tells me i've been had. it just says that maybe the stone may not perform as well. lucky for me, it does compare pretty well to the comparison cz stone visually, even if the numbers arent quite "ideal".
end of the day, even if i was told a stone have excellent "numbers" i'd still want to see it with my eyes for confirmation.
but tools like a loupe might have helped me pick up the extra facet, or the scope showed me that the symmetry of the arrows wasnt so good. Who knows? i may have still gone ahead with the purchase if i knew of the less than ideal issues, though i may have asked to a discount?
i just hope the gf likes it
i think the tools are useful. For one, i am somewhat confident of being able to identify my stone with a loupe. sadly, i noticed an extra facet (i should have learnt to use a loupe before i went out shopping!) this is why a tool can be useful!
For someone who is going out to buy a stone, i'd say read up on the tutorials, get yourself a loupe and learn how to use it. its invaluable!
i think its more dangerous to depend on the jeweller's word alone. certainly u have your expert jewellers, but there are also others who arent as informed. mine kept saying it is a "very good" cut, simply because it was the grading given by the lab on the report.
when i asked him about the 0.09mm difference in the L x W, he said oh, that's the min max range... not the actual diam. this of course, turned out to be wrong, so my stone is not as round as i might have liked.
i dont think the HCA tells me i've been had. it just says that maybe the stone may not perform as well. lucky for me, it does compare pretty well to the comparison cz stone visually, even if the numbers arent quite "ideal".
end of the day, even if i was told a stone have excellent "numbers" i'd still want to see it with my eyes for confirmation.
but tools like a loupe might have helped me pick up the extra facet, or the scope showed me that the symmetry of the arrows wasnt so good. Who knows? i may have still gone ahead with the purchase if i knew of the less than ideal issues, though i may have asked to a discount?
i just hope the gf likes it
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Diagem:
You are quite right in that there is a lot of scientific mumbo-gumbo out there, and it can be difficult to follow.
You are also right in that there is no such thing as a perfectly ideal diamond.
I am an engineer, with some background in optics, and it would be quite easy for me to get sucked into all the scientific details of how diamond light reflection and refraction work, and the ray tracing software. However, I am not interested in that. I am interested in how I purchase a good looking diamond (actually 3 of them if she says "yes").
It turns out there are several tools out there that are simple for you to use that allow you to quickly sort out the worst of the diamonds out there, to insure that the ones remaining are "good looking" diamonds.
The Ideal Scope works for all shapes and allows the amature (and professional) to quickly sort out the about 90% of the lowest light return diamonds out there (and these are in your local jewelers display case). Note that many lower quality stones look great in a jewelery store with all their specilized lighting to make diamonds sparkle. Take them into normal lighting and they have what I call "no life"... i.e. there some really "dead" stones out there (that looked great in jewelery store lighting).
A loupe also helps (and I have found it amazing the number of stores who do not have a 10x loupe or 10X microscope for customers to use). I have also found that most jewelery store clerks know very little about diamonds or how they are priced. And, don't trust their grading unless they can produce a report (I have seen stones called VS2 that had obvious flaws to the naked eye and were probably SI2 or I1), have seen an awfully yellow "G" (probably J or K).
If you are planning on purchasing a round brilliant stone (the most popular) the HCA is an excellent tool (free to use)and anything under 2 will not likely disapoint anyone (and you may well like something in the 2 to 3 range).
Considering that you are planning to spend a sizable chunk of money on a diamond; purchasing $50 to $250 (depending on how much info and what tools you want) in inspection tools may save you from making a very poor multithousand dollar purchase.
My advice is to forgive Gary (CutNut) for his not well explained post, and get the Ideal Scope and a good 10X loupe (and if you are serious about finding a great looking stone I would get the professional model). With those you can easily sort out the worst stones, to where you have several to choose from that will look great.
Beyond that, you need to understand the basics of the 4 C's and how they affect price (A 1 Carat D, IF Excellent Cut is in the $20,000 to $25,000 range on the Internet, a 1 Carat I, SI2 is about $4000 (and less for poor cuts)).
Other than that you need to look at the remaining stones and in the end it is what pleases you most.
If you do not want to do that, but still want a guarantee on a great looking stone: I then suggest that you purchase a EightStar or similar branded stone. These stones are premium cuts specifically to ensure the best looking diamonds. You do pay a premium price for them, but at least you have taken out the guesswork and uncertainty (you will not get a bad looking stone). Note to research the different premium cut stones. Some Companies have store brands that are not realy premiium cut (just "sorts" from the normal cut diamonds avaiable). If you wish to go the premium cut diamond route I would stick with branded names that cut their own stones to premium standards.
You are quite right in that there is a lot of scientific mumbo-gumbo out there, and it can be difficult to follow.
You are also right in that there is no such thing as a perfectly ideal diamond.
I am an engineer, with some background in optics, and it would be quite easy for me to get sucked into all the scientific details of how diamond light reflection and refraction work, and the ray tracing software. However, I am not interested in that. I am interested in how I purchase a good looking diamond (actually 3 of them if she says "yes").
It turns out there are several tools out there that are simple for you to use that allow you to quickly sort out the worst of the diamonds out there, to insure that the ones remaining are "good looking" diamonds.
The Ideal Scope works for all shapes and allows the amature (and professional) to quickly sort out the about 90% of the lowest light return diamonds out there (and these are in your local jewelers display case). Note that many lower quality stones look great in a jewelery store with all their specilized lighting to make diamonds sparkle. Take them into normal lighting and they have what I call "no life"... i.e. there some really "dead" stones out there (that looked great in jewelery store lighting).
A loupe also helps (and I have found it amazing the number of stores who do not have a 10x loupe or 10X microscope for customers to use). I have also found that most jewelery store clerks know very little about diamonds or how they are priced. And, don't trust their grading unless they can produce a report (I have seen stones called VS2 that had obvious flaws to the naked eye and were probably SI2 or I1), have seen an awfully yellow "G" (probably J or K).
If you are planning on purchasing a round brilliant stone (the most popular) the HCA is an excellent tool (free to use)and anything under 2 will not likely disapoint anyone (and you may well like something in the 2 to 3 range).
Considering that you are planning to spend a sizable chunk of money on a diamond; purchasing $50 to $250 (depending on how much info and what tools you want) in inspection tools may save you from making a very poor multithousand dollar purchase.
My advice is to forgive Gary (CutNut) for his not well explained post, and get the Ideal Scope and a good 10X loupe (and if you are serious about finding a great looking stone I would get the professional model). With those you can easily sort out the worst stones, to where you have several to choose from that will look great.
Beyond that, you need to understand the basics of the 4 C's and how they affect price (A 1 Carat D, IF Excellent Cut is in the $20,000 to $25,000 range on the Internet, a 1 Carat I, SI2 is about $4000 (and less for poor cuts)).
Other than that you need to look at the remaining stones and in the end it is what pleases you most.
If you do not want to do that, but still want a guarantee on a great looking stone: I then suggest that you purchase a EightStar or similar branded stone. These stones are premium cuts specifically to ensure the best looking diamonds. You do pay a premium price for them, but at least you have taken out the guesswork and uncertainty (you will not get a bad looking stone). Note to research the different premium cut stones. Some Companies have store brands that are not realy premiium cut (just "sorts" from the normal cut diamonds avaiable). If you wish to go the premium cut diamond route I would stick with branded names that cut their own stones to premium standards.
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