Light return of a diamond

[diagem]

Any ideas how long it takes to have minimum knowledge on how to use a 10x diamond loupe? Believe me, much more than a few tries here and there. It takes years of practice on a daily basis.

Second of all one small extra facet cant hurt the life of any diamond (In my oppinion atleast 90%+ of all gem diamonds have at least one extra facets or more.

Third I dont know of any scopes that work on fancy shape diamonds (simply because avery fancy shape is different, yes even pairs and lines of the same size diamonds)

And again, my oppinion of ideal makes (any brand of a round shape)they are there to charge you much more than you should be paying for a regular round shape diamond.

 

[Rhino]

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On 10/22/2004 1:58:15 PM diagem wrote:





what tools are you talking about, i am sory I didnt understand...
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I just sat and typed out a response for the last half hour including graphics to demonstrate. I hit send and it all got lost. Sorry but I'll have to answer as time allows diagem. There are solid answers to your questions of which I have the answers if I don't get cut off before sending them.

 

[valeria101]

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On 10/23/2004 2:51:01 PM diagem wrote:




...every fancy shape is different, yes even pairs and lines of the same size diamonds.

And again, my oppinion of ideal makes (any brand of a round shape)they are there to charge you much more than you should be paying for a regular round shape diamond.
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Sure brands cost more - otherwise why would anyone bother. Fortunately there is a bunch of them to stand judgement.

The argument that every diamond is different and all are beautiful makes sense, just as much as maximizing light return and what not. But then, how is one supposed to choose among a bunch of diamonds that are all beautiful and cannot be compared and judged in any way?

Besides, my personal taste cannot possibly be a pricing factor simply because it is not me making up those quotes. There must be something else.

So, how can one understand what they-re buying at all ?

 

[diagem]

Dear Ana,

trust your taste...

One of the hottest selling diamonds today are Antique cut diamonds, antique means at least 100 years old.

They rearly exist in decent qualities any more, so why do conoisers go around the world looking for them? Paying top $ for them. And believe me 99% of them are very poorly cut as to todays standarts, but they still are considered the cream of the crop in diamonds today.

Most of all the round shape diamonds that were cut since the begining of the 20th. Century, If you check their results in any of those "scopes" you would probably leave the jeweler's store with a protested door slam.

Can you figure out the sense out of this..., if you need more explanation, I would be more than happy to.

 

[Rhino]

Ok... managed to escape from the counter a bit.

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On 10/22/2004 1:58:15 PM diagem wrote:





what tools are you talking about, i am sory I didnt understand...
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One tool we use is something we developed ourselves after using the FireScope(tm) for roughly a year. Not only does it show us light return/leakage but it also shows us the weakness/intensity with which light is being reflected within the gem material itself as well. Observing this level of detail allows us to examine a level of craftsmanship and the degree to which all facet angles have been positioned and whether they are redirecting light at high intensity or weak. When a factory has mastered the cutting to this degree, this is really an *art* that takes many years of practice. Among the 57/58 facet H&A diamonds we get to examine few show results like the stone on the left. Interestingly enough the diamond on the right has proportions within .1 or .2 degrees. The difference between the 2 diamonds lies in minor facet cutting and the tilting of it's facets so that it's directing light consistently throughout the stone. Both happen to be H&A's too.

Here are the Sarin results of each of these diamonds showing how similar their proportions are.

/idealbb/files/superprops01.gif

 

[Rhino]

These are B'scope results of each stone as well. The B'scope happens to be another tool we use that also demonstrates the *art* of a stones cut and it's ability to reflect back light. In this device light is evenly reflected within the diamond at various points. The craftsmanship this shows us is when all facets within a particular set light up at the same time.




Take for example LightView 1. In this view and in this particular stone all star facets are lit up. In image 2 all arrow heads are lit up at exactly the same time. In images 3 and 4 the arrow shafts, etc.




I would point out however that this is a controlled environment and never would a person observe this phenomena with their eyes unless viewing the diamond under that controlled lit environment. Having said that I would also point out that diamonds that do score well on this technology will appear incredibly awesome in direct light conditions with the human eyes. Note the greater activity of light in each of the light views as well in comparison to the first.




A little study and observance of some of the technologies and you can really learn alot about diamond cut and what properties constitute some of the rarest goods.




BTW, since beauty in diamond is subjective, your preference, after viewing both may not necessarily be for the first stone either. Yes it does exhibit a higer level of precision (LightScope images) and does reflect back more light at a higher intensity but the only real way to know which you'd prefer is to view both.




Kind regards,




/idealbb/files/bscope02.gif




/idealbb/files/bscope01.gif

 

[diagem]

Sorry, I dont agree with you that a factory has to master his skills to get to that result, Its a matter of Yield % from the original rough diamond weight before the cutting.
Thats what makes the ideal round shape diamond sooooo expencive, not the art. You lose more weight, you spend more cuttin and polishing hours to finalize the cutting of the diamonds. Thats why the consumer payes much more for the IDEAL diamond that doesn't actually exists

And you just prooved a second point, in the scope, the diamonds sit horizontaly in front of your eyesight.
In other words if the diamond is tilted a bit to any side, you will automaticaly get leakage (please correct me if i am wrong)

So unless you look at the piece of jewelry straight and balanced (VERY RARE), you will allways get leakage, which what makes a diamond special in my oppinion. Again no two diamonds are alike in this world, so why try to do the imposible.

Let the consumer make his own decision if the diamonds he purchases are beautiful or not (Like in the old days)

Any ways you look at it The consumer is willing to pay sooo much for something that lasts FOREVER!!!

 

[researcher]

Diagem~
I don't understand why you are insistent on arguing your point. It would be one thing if you were truly asking questions, but all you seem to be doing is asking a question and denying the answer without trying out the tools. It's funny that you're so readily disagreeing with everyone yet can't understand when other people state opinions that are different from yours and try to explain themselves. Are you reading their posts with an open mind? I don't think so--sorry! The thing is, I was a complete dunce when it came to diamonds before I found PS. What I had thought was a great stone in the beginning was pitiful! But, in comparing a bad stone with the other bad stones out there, the stone I had found and liked looked pretty good. Through the help of the experts here on PS, I discovered the value of Sarin Reports, the ideal scope, and Bscope, and ended up with a SPECTACULAR stone that absolutely blows the first stone I found away (I went back to the store, showed them my stone, and their jaws dropped at the difference in quality). THAT'S what these tools can do for amateurs. My stone is so amazing that it literally blows other stones away. Would I have been happy with the other stone? Yes, as long as I remained ignorant. But, I would have been bummed had I seen someone with a stone that had far more brilliance than mine. And I know I'm not the only one who feels this way. At any rate, don't knock the tools until you've tried them!

 

[valeria101]

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On 10/23/2004 3:59:11 PM diagem wrote:

Dear Ana,

trust your taste...

One of the hottest selling diamonds today are Antique cut diamonds,

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Sure I do. It took me about 5 years of seeking to see, handle and learn about gems and jewelry to acquire whatever I call now "my taste". For better or worse.

This is a hobby for me and I cannot see why anyone interested in acquiring a pair of diamond earrings would go through a comparable process of learning.

Whatever meaningful shortcut sounds great. I can only respect the wisdom and effort that went into Garry's 'scopes and AGA's standard... I hope you would agree that it is indeed hard to sum up allot of knowledge in a nutshell and make it usable off the bat as well. On Pricescope, your posts are becoming such a nutshell as we speak

On the aside... not many on this planet would call the jewel in your avatar a "badly cut diamond" even if it is not a harts and arrows RBC ? That would sound stupid indeed since that diamond does so many things so well. However, even important gems occasionally get recut just to improve brilliance whenever their temporary owner has such taste. Almost everyone would pay more (or waste diamond mass, what not) to get exactly what they want, even if there is never complete agreement about what is desirable.

There is no such agreement on Pricescope either. Actually, it would be great to have a speaker in favor of old and/or unusual cuts around here, since David Atlas would not talk much about his old cuts

Even his AGA tables for them are not published ! And there is serious dearth of chatter about these things

 

[perry]

Diagem:

Concerning your comment:

---------------------------------------------------

Any ideas how long it takes to have minimum knowledge
on how to use a 10x diamond loupe? Believe me, much
more than a few tries here and there. It takes years
of practice on a daily basis.

---------------------------------------------------

We'll, probably yes if you were learning to grade diamonds.

However, most anyone can learn to see obvioius flaws or small chips in a few minutes with a 10X loupe. Call it a reality check on how the diamond is graded (does the stone match the report?). Or in the absense of a Lab report - If they call it VVS1 or VVS2, an amature should have a hard time finding the flaw - or it should be small (and I have seen "store rated" VVS1's that were in all probability SI2/I1 (I can understand an occasional mislabeled stone - but a whole series of them?). This also pays in verifying that your diamond is the same (the rare switches) and there are no major defects in the setting.

For the purposes in making general judgements on what you are getting - most people can learn enough with a 10x loupe in a bit. For the diamond specialist - they will acquire the many years of experience needed to see the fine details and minute flaws.

 

[diagem]

Not bad for five years...

You are right about the tools that help a consumer find out if he is getting the diamond he was educated, but unfortunatly I still think that the education the consumer got for the last decade or more was an Interest to some...
(I will not name them on this forum, but they are very powerfull subject in this world of diamond marketing)

I still think that consumers are being overcharged for ideal type diamonds in the rounds....

99% of consumers would not see the difference with their eyes looking at a diamond which is ideal or on that for example has a 64% depth 56% table 35+ degree crown and a 38 degree pavillion. (just one example of MANY)

Regarding the owners that recut their diamonds to get more life:

Most of the historic diamonds that were recut in the past Century, were historic mistakes. I believe historians would agree with me on this subject...

If you have any interests in antique diamonds I would be happy to answer you according to whatever knowledge I have.

 

[valeria101]

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On 10/24/2004 8:38:45 AM diagem wrote:



You are right about the tools that help a consumer find out if he is getting the diamond he was educated, but unfortunatly I still think that the education the consumer got for the last decade or more was an Interest to some...

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I have a bit of trouble understanding this "Consumer education" concept. If I get this right, whatever such quick-fix learning does, feels good and doesn't have to do much with anything.

At most the 'lesson' changes the buyer's task from evaluating the product to judging the talking going on about it. At least jewelry businesses age and leave a track record. "Consumer Education" does not leave anything behind - in a couple of months the lesson is reversed and who is to complain?

Too bad I missed all those adds...


Your saying:
"tools that help a consumer find out if he is getting the diamond he was educated" sounds truly depressing. To flip the coin: how does one go about and judge diamonds (or anything, this could be a general statement as well) with no preconception at all?

I hope this makes a little sense. It would be refreshing to look at the logic behind diamond grading from somewhere outside.

 

[diagem]

Dear Ana,

You are absolutly right about the positive aspect of education, every education is "profit"

But when education becomes some kind of delicate brainwash, that i cant agree with.

Every diamond has and will allways have leakage...
You never look at a piece of jewelry FROM THE SAME ANGLE!!!

A diamond is considered a small OBJECT. there is no way in the world that a consumer can notice if a diamond is reflecting the fire the right way or the wrong way.

A diamond is a substance of nature, even rough diamonds are beautifull in their original state. (with no life at all ALMOST)

Whomever wants the consumer to purchase ideal diamonds is doing it for a specific INTEREST. Ideal does not exists in MY OPPINION in diamonds. A lot of different labs tried, and are still trying to come out with an ideal cut for Fancy shape diamonds for years, So Far no luck, I understood that AGS is comming out with new Parameters for the Princess cut.
But i havent seen them yet.

Anyways I dont think the consumer should pay for other interested people. I imagine that you could get a beautifull not ideal cut diamond for Appr. 20% off

So its hard for me to see all these consumer asking and talking about depth% and table% and angles and so forth....

You can educate yourself through reading books that are on the market, and like i said pure intelectual profit.

But too fool the consumer by selling tools, That most profesionals dont use, yes i repeat dont use. is in my oppinion a pure marketing sceme.

Funny, a lot of people on this web site are blaming the 150 year old jewelry companies that they are bluff marketing, well so far i notice that the people on this web site are eating a lot of bluff marketing.

I am sorry i sound this way but i trully believe thats the case.

 

[nicknomo]

You keep saying that an "ideal" diamond does not exist. Well maybe if taken literally, yes.. but the term ideal refers to a certain set of specifications that allow for a (subjectively) better looking diamond.

I do believe that there is some merit in the claim that you can't tell the difference between similar sets of diamonds. But really, I think you are basically saying the cut doesn't matter which is outright false. Even though I'm just a consumer and haven't taken up this diamond hobby for that long, there most certainly can be a huge difference that the cut makes.

Now a lot of people I know have round brilliant diamonds, all of them the classic cut for size... They sparkle and still look nice, but they just don't compare to the "ideal" classification of diamonds. To pretend there is no difference is naive. You can put a well cut diamnond next to a normal diamond and unless you are blind you WILL notice a difference.

 

[diagem]

dont get me wrong, there is a diference but you the consumer are paying A LOT MORE for that diference.

the diference between an ideal made round and a well made round is not visible in the consumers eyes... i repeat the consumers eyes, but the price is way more expensive!!!!!


and again the performance between an ideal and a well made round is very small, why pay soooo much more.

 

[nicknomo]

I have seen some very nice diamonds that aren't "ideal". It is true, I don't think the average joe schmoe consumer notices much of a difference between a "well" cut and an "ideal" cut. All consumers, are not always on equal footing. Some are more interested in diamonds, and pay more attention to diamonds than the average person. In electronics we call these folks "prosumers".

This group of people can more readily tell the difference, and care about the differences more. Granted we are only talking about 5% of the population here, but this group is more willing to pay more for what they like. That's what yo uare encountering here. Along with many vendors and retailers here, there are a bunch of diamond hobbyists and interested consumers. They do care what they get, and they are probably more critical and more observant when it comes to looking at stones.

I do think though you are still missing the underlying point I was trying to make. A lot of retailers don't even sell many diamonds that are "well" cut. When I started shopping early this year, I saw a lot of stones that were either fair or poor in cut. There is obviously a world of difference between these cuts and ideal cuts.

The average consumer usually doesn't even know anything better exists. I for one, didn't know when I started shopping. They did actually look rather nice in the beginning... until I started looking at higher cut classes that is.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm a big advocate for paying for only what you can see and NOTHING MORE. It's why I went with a good ~1.5ct H Si-1. However I could notice the difference between your average cut and an Ideal H&A. I was more than happy to pay the extra money for it. Could I have gotten a well cut diamond that would have looked just as nice.. probably. However, not all well cut and premium cuts look just as nice, so this entails a bit more work.

I paid a bit over 8k for my ideal diamond, and the going rate for a similar avg cut was about 7000. That's the premium for it, and I was willing to pay it. Are mots diamond buyers this critical? no.. but I think a lot are.

 

[valeria101]

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On 10/25/2004 7:09:40 AM diagem wrote:



A diamond is a substance of nature, even rough diamonds are beautifull in their original state.

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Thank you so much ! It is always good to hear a different kind of wisedom.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

DiaGem if you were running a trinket flogging business and had a diamond supplier submit you a parcel of 1/2ct diamonds would you:

1. Buy the whole parcel (for a 5% discount) and just price the less everything the same.
2. Buy the lot and grade each stone and price the best ones higher for color and clarity, but not raise the price for sparkly well cut stones nor lower the price of the less sparkly stones?
3. Pick the eyes out and pay 5% more for the best sparkly highest color and highest clarity, and price the stones individually?

 

[diagem]

Find me someone who would let me pick the best stones from the parcels for 5% more....

I dont know anyone who will

now you have the answer for the two previous questions too
i believe.

How much is the premium for picking? I believe way more than 5 %

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

The answer is it depends on how tight the parcel has been graded.
It happens.
But for the case - use 20% if you wish.
That is almost 2x what I have ever experianced, but use it for this case.

 

[diagem]

Go on please,

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Not till you tell me what you would do?

 

[noobie]

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On 10/25/2004 5:09:40 PM Garry H (Cut Nut) wrote:





Not till you tell me what you would do?
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I was wondering the same thing based on what I've read here.

 

[diagem]

Pick exactly what i was chosing, Based first on color and then on clarity.

I personaly dont favor H and below, and not VS2 and below.

the cut would matter last.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

So say the parcel is F/G SI1/VS2, you will pick the G and occasional F stones and not care that some sparkle better than others?
But you will pick - even at say 5% or 10% discount in this example?
You would not buy the whole parcel.
And you will sell the lessor cut less sparkly diamonds at the same price?

 

[diagem]

the price difference will be according to the grades based on color and clarity only, i wouldnt expect a premium for the makes.

we are talking about a regular parcel right?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Yes, a regular parcel, where there will be the type of diversity of proportions that was described in the GIA's survey of proportions of 67.000 diamonds submitted to GIA-GTL for grading during a couple of months in 1998.

 

[diagem]

What did the GIA describe?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Play with me a little longer DiaGem

The parcel has some very good and some not so good stones for cut quality - a normal parcel. Is there a premium to select the better made stones out of this parcel?
No.
Any selection attracts say a 5% or say a 10% premium over buying the whole parcel.
Are you sure you will select all the F VS2 stones?
That will be your criteria?

 

[diagem]

Yes, of course i would select the f-vs2 over the g-si1 quality. You have a difference of 18-20 % right there, and take into consideration that you will pay a premium of at least 10% for the picking, you will be safe only with the f-vs2's.

Am i not right?

(and , i can most probably retouch the soso makes at a loss of about 3.5-8 % material ) I think that i would be beter off with the f-vs2's, what do you think?