Laser Drilled diamond, Before / After
- Thread starter Garry H (Cut Nut)
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Why? The stone is already an I1. It is really no more a treatment than faceting the stone, it is part of the normal preparation of the stone for market. You can already assume that all stones have been cleaned in an acid bath as part of the process. It may or may not have been black prior to the bath, but the cavity is eye visible still, so it really does not matter.
Wink
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Date: 7/6/2007 6:09:25 PM
Author: CaptAubrey
Good grief, what a can of worms we''ve opened up here. Since it''s Friday, let me muck things up even further.
The issue is complex because these kinds of pits and cavities can form through a variety of processes. Diamonds do not form with voids in their crystal structure when deep in the earth--the pressures they grow under preclude this. However, when brought to the surface through natural vulcanism, the hot magma and various other corrosive fluids can and do etch the diamond rough. Even pure diamond is not crystallographically homogenous--there are disclocations, misalignments, and various other ''hiccups'' in the array of carbon atoms. Where the structure is strained or otherwise not proper diamond form, the crystal is not as durable or stable. In these areas, the diamond can be preferentially dissolved, meaning that pits and channels can form as the ''erroneous'' structures are dissolved away from the ''correct'' structures. All of this happens before anyone touches it, and the cutting process may or may not remove these etch features.
Too, solid inclusions can simply ''fall out'' of the crystal during polishing. This will leave behind a pit that is indistinguishable from what would be created if the inclusion remained and then was dissolved during acid boiling.
So by the time the diamond gets to the poor jeweler, who may or may not really understand any of this, it can be next to impossible for him/her to tell what happened.
Another point of clarification: What those of us in the trade mean by ''disclosure'' is the act of explaining what treatments have been performed on a gemstone when it changes hands at the point of sale. This is the resposibility of the vendor. What the labs do is simply identify what may have been done should the gem be submitted for a report (and not all treatments are detectable). Disclosure is not the responsibility of the lab.
Strictly speaking, I can understand the argument that deliberately acid-boiling a diamond to bleach a surface-reaching inclusion constitutes a treatment. Treatments that substantially affect the value of a gem must be disclosed under FTC rules. But because of the difficulties in identification, disclosure in this case would mean all diamonds would be accompanied by a statement, ''Your diamond was acid-boiled after faceting.'' Somehow, I doubt the clerks at Tiffany would enjoy doing this.
And, frankly, I have serious doubts about the ability of the general public to handle this information in a rational manner. Require disclosure for this routine process, and we''re going to be seeing regular ''HELP!!! My diamond was acid-boiled!!!'' threads on PS. That, I can do without.
Bravo! Well said.
I can see it now, the poor jeweler who discusses the acid boiling of his well cut diamonds loosing sales to those who discuss the beauty and symbolism of the diamond, even though they might be selling poorly cut stones that have not been "tainted".
Wink
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HI:
I must be harbouring an incorrect assumption then; as it was my understanding that no "major" (GIA, AGS) lab certified treated (e.g clarity enhanced) stones. Please clarify--as I am always happy to be wrong.
cheers--Sharon
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Date: 7/7/2007 11:51:37 AM
Author: canuk-gal
HI:
I must be harbouring an incorrect assumption then; as it was my understanding that no ''major'' (GIA, AGS) lab certified treated (e.g clarity enhanced) stones. Please clarify--as I am always happy to be wrong.
cheers--Sharon
You are correct, which is why if the stone has a major lab report you can be assured that it is not clarity enhanced. If it has been drilled or HPHT treated, then that will be disclosed. I partially misspoke, but my intentions were pure,,,
Wink
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I thought I did see in the past one of the major Labs graded CE Diamonds...Date: 7/7/2007 12:54:08 PM
Author: Wink
Date: 7/7/2007 11:51:37 AM
Author: canuk-galHI:
I must be harbouring an incorrect assumption then; as it was my understanding that no ''major'' (GIA, AGS) lab certified treated (e.g clarity enhanced) stones. Please clarify--as I am always happy to be wrong.
cheers--Sharon
You are correct, which is why if the stone has a major lab report you can be assured that it is not clarity enhanced. If it has been drilled or HPHT treated, then that will be disclosed. I partially misspoke, but my intentions were pure,,,
Wink
Ellen
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I thought I remembered something on this, and found a thread where JohnQ elaborates.Date: 7/7/2007 1:03:39 PM
Author: DiaGem
I thought I did see in the past one of the major Labs graded CE Diamonds...Date: 7/7/2007 12:54:08 PM
Author: Wink
Date: 7/7/2007 11:51:37 AM
Author: canuk-galHI:
I must be harbouring an incorrect assumption then; as it was my understanding that no ''major'' (GIA, AGS) lab certified treated (e.g clarity enhanced) stones. Please clarify--as I am always happy to be wrong.
cheers--Sharon
You are correct, which is why if the stone has a major lab report you can be assured that it is not clarity enhanced. If it has been drilled or HPHT treated, then that will be disclosed. I partially misspoke, but my intentions were pure,,,
Wink
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/need-an-opinion-please-long-term-value-of-yehuda-enhanced-diamonds.60962/
Value: Some labs, including the AGS and GIA, will not accept fracture-filled diamonds for grading (they will grade laser-drilled diamonds but note it on the grading report). Additionally, many sellers will not deal in clarity or color enhanced diamonds. This does not mean they are "bad," but the fact that they''re avoided by certain companies and labs does impact their value; both in the short and long-term.
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Okay, let''s not quibble. No major lab that is well respected in the trade. If you want a real report that is going to be accepted by the market, ie no discount from GIA or AGS paper, you have to get GIA or AGS paper. All other labs sell at a discount.. If they were truly accepted and respected by the trade they would not sell at a discount. Sorry if I am letting my non lawyer speak mouth get me into trouble, but you both know what I meant. EGL, IGI, et al sell at a well deserved discount, especially the European and Israeli EGL, and IGI. Thus for the purposes of talking about a major lab I am not including either of them.
Wink
WorkingHardforSmallRewards
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Of course, it could also be interpreted as GIA and AGS carry a PREMIUM for their exceptionally stringent standards whereas the other labs offer a more consumer friendly approach--breaking up grades based on consumer's ability to differentiate rather than a gemologist's ability under laboratory conditions and thus IGA and GIA are the real benchmark for appropriate diamond pricing according to the ability of the average consumer to appreciate questioned differences.
(I am just trying to start a fight though
)
(I am just trying to start a fight though
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Dont try to start a fight...., but BINGO!!!Date: 7/8/2007 12:38:14 PM
Author: WorkingHardforSmallRewards
Of course, it could also be interpreted as GIA and AGS carry a PREMIUM for their exceptionally stringent standards whereas the other labs offer a more consumer friendly approach--breaking up grades based on consumer''s ability to differentiate rather than a gemologist''s ability under laboratory conditions and thus IGA and GIA are the real benchmark for appropriate diamond pricing according to the ability of the average consumer to appreciate questioned differences.
(I am just trying to start a fight though)
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Date: 7/8/2007 12:38:14 PM
Author: WorkingHardforSmallRewards
Of course, it could also be interpreted as GIA and AGS carry a PREMIUM for their exceptionally stringent standards whereas the other labs offer a more consumer friendly approach--breaking up grades based on consumer''s ability to differentiate rather than a gemologist''s ability under laboratory conditions and thus IGA and GIA are the real benchmark for appropriate diamond pricing according to the ability of the average consumer to appreciate questioned differences.
(I am just trying to start a fight though)
LOL! You started me laughing instead.
While enjoying my chuckle, I would say that GIA and AGS have it right, and EGL, especially Europe and Israel, and IGI have not in my opinion offered a more consumer friendly approach by grading looser than AGS and GIA, just a more vendor friendly model, since the vendor can buy less expensive goods to sell and tell his clients look what I am saving you over this other lab''s report. The implication and often stated idea being that, "my stones are just as good as theirs, but cheaper". The fact is that most often while they are cheaper, they are also not very often as good.
We on Pricescope might say that no one would fall for that, but one has only to look at Costco, Zales, etc to know that indeed many not only would but do.
Sigh. It is a sad fact that I can buy inferior goods and make more money selling them, I just have this looking in the mirror thing going on in the morning. This is not a condemnation of those who choose to do so, it is just my personal choice to sell into the high quality cut market and my only real options for reliably being able to tell my clients just how good the quality of my cut is is to use the two labs that have developed a reliable cutting quality grade, even if I do dissagree with the fine points of the GIA system. I have no problem with the choice of others to sell to the segments of the market that they desire, I just have a problem with labs that intentionally grade loose being held to the same high esteem as those that do it tightly. The market must agree as they have put a discount on those labs, although you could look at it from the point of the AGS and GIA labs demanding a premium if you choose. Either way, the market is telling us that the AGS and GIA labs are the most respected and trusted, and neither of them will accept clarity enhanced stones for grading.
Wink
Regular Guy
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...well...we could look more broadly than that, too.
Don't know. And still don't know. I've been a reader here just over three years, and feel this thread may have, for the first time, or nearly so, have tried to spell out the particular reasons why someone would not fall for something other than GIA or AGS.
This thread is a good example. Initial comments from Neil give related warnings about purchasing other than AGS or GIA. But you have to say..."come on...please do better than that, to find out more of why. Of course, the why, as pointed to in this thread I'm writing in, suggests matters of concern that these other labs may not cover the buyer for. And, I take it these issues are so subtle that Neil goes on to not first recommend his office for a possible remedy (am I reading too much into his post?), but he says instead, if you DO buy EGL or others, to...
"My advice is to simply not consider an EGLI graded stone in this category unless you yourself are an expert and are considering the possibility of buying the stone, sending it to a more reputable lab to improve it’s saleability. You can bet that others have already considered this very issue and opted against it. Ask yourself why."
Now...we don't...after buying a diamond, typically need to send a diamond to a lab, discussed elsewhere in a nearby thread, to value it. But...maybe the suggestion is that, when buying a multi thousand dollar diamond with an off make certificate...we might only trust the actual sophistication available at a major lab (i.e. AGS & GIA) to ferret out the irregularities that would allow one to criticize the basis of the purchase whatsoever.
Truly, this site is about cut. Also, however, maybe considerations of cut can more readily be given after the basic logic of making a multi-thousand dollar purchase are determined reasonable. How much do we have to justify to rationalize a purchase? Though a good question...as the analogy is sometimes made...when buying a house...having an inspector is not a bad idea. It may be the large part of your paying is for location location location...but if termites are there, too, you gotta know.
Perhaps...if in working with a jeweler, there were a way to track the basis upon which a diamond were sent to one lab vs another...this would be a basis to select a diamond certed by an off lab.
Otherwise...maybe...like AGS (used to?) list all those things that they check for when issuing their paper...if a comparison were iterated about exactly what one lab checks for, and another lab doesn't, so a certificate can be understood to have gone through the specific paces it does...this would make a difference.
Even then, how should a consumer know to care.
Not an easy business. But...worth looking into. I'm thinking the detail for the comparison hasn't come up enough, yet, to justify the rationale. What better place to iterate the differences but Pricescope. I hope this discussion will continue.
P.S. My son has watched me type this, and want me to include a smiley face.
How about.....
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I meant major to be respected. I do not consider IGI to be respected by any but those who take advantage of their sloppy grading and ridicules retail pricing included with their documents to dupe the public.
From here it is semantics. You say pahtahto I say potato. You can call them major if you wish, just please, do not call them to my table for dinner. I will have to fast on that evening if you do.
Wink
Regular Guy
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The link in my post above (also here) documents well enough how strictness alone does not for a winning decision process make...if your criteria is strictness alone.
Although the idea that this thread is embedded in (laser drilling, and such) might suggest other reasons to prefer GIA & AGS...to not reference some of these other ideas, at least sometimes...mentioning what they are...
to only refer to strictness, when talking about preferring AGS & GIA, is to make people understandably say...what are those yokels talking about...can''t they do the math?
Naming additional, notable, factors, is what I''d call education
Failing to do so is an old boys network, and is typically regarded as prejudice.
I hope you understand I''m sympathetic to what so far, in more the large, is the prejudicial choice. I''m also for education. I''d like to see more of it here.
Regular Guy
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What.
Ok, sorry to be even a little obtuse.
The hope is that a professional like yourself, Wink, would take the time to simply, name the reasons you prefer AGS & GIA to other options.
Also, please, make a complete list.
Don''t just say strictness of color & clarity (see other linked thread to show why this is not logical).
Begin here?...with laser drilling (examining for this), and consider explaining why this might be important
Add other reasons.
The hope is for one kinda complete list...and not just the statement...only AGS & GIA know how to do it right.
That''s all.
Many thanks!
P.S. though I invite you to begin or continue the task, Wink, it need not be yours alone. Anyone is welcome to help.
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