Laser Drilled diamond, Before / After
- Thread starter Garry H (Cut Nut)
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WorkingHardforSmallRewards
Brilliant_Rock
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Well if you know me at all by now you know I am willing to chime in. My understanding is that it is more about consistency than it is necessarily strictness of color grading.
Consider that a lab grades A FEW of their diamonds equivalently to how GIA would grade it,
some 1 color grade high, some 2 color grades high, some 1 clarity grade high, others 2 clarity grades high, some 1 color and 1 clarity, others 1 color and 2 clarity, others 2 for each, some very rare--and perhaps equal in percentage to the number of accurately graded stones? 3 in one or both categories.
But there is no way to tell how the stone is graded. That means that if you search through enough diamonds graded by lab XXX you would eventually find a properly graded stone at a discount price and the seller would lose money to the consumer. that money lost is more than offset by the money gained when one or both of the color/clarity is off by 2 grades and the consumer is charged full price. But it would make sense with this sort of inconsistency that most of the time the consumers will either be slightly overcharged or significantly overcharged.
Now if there were a color and clarity grade that were simply not as "strict" as GIA or AGS then it would be a simple matter of discounted the price of the diamond to account for its properly graded AGS or GIA grade. And that is what it looks like many (non-PS) vendors do. They say to a totally uninformed consumer, this diamond is a "F here are the papers and look at this amazing price, wouldn't you please buy it so I can feed my children, I really wish I could hold on to it but it's time to sell".
Then the somewhat informed consumers come in and they say, "you are right, this does say an F but XXX lab is somewhat less strict, you are right, and thats why we offer this big discount see? to account for it." When in fact the price reduction is accounting for 1 color grade or 1 clarity when in fact it may well be more. But if it were consistent then the idea of a consistent discount price would work.
But when they are inconsistent and vendors offer a fairly consistent discount that means that they will occasionally lose money to properly graded stones but that is, as I said above, far outweighed by the money gained when the grading is significantly off. It gives an opportunity to take advantage of those unsuspected and partially informed consumers who believe they are getting a great deal, overpay and get locked into a store losing thousands of dollars.
This is obviously encouraged by some of the reports mentioned where there is an "inflated appraisal" provided of 2 or more times the actual appraisal value. This is obviously designed to aid in that very strategy mentioned above. Thus, while I can't say for sure about any particular lab, it is certainly a possibility, and I can certainly imagine it happening and being very successful- looking at "mall" jewelry stores and some of the other more reputable jewelery stores with "in-house certifications" I believe it certainly is taking place.
This is not even considering cut grading of course, which would be the same thing only much more difficult to sort through and figure out.
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Ira no one ever thought you were only a little obtuse
Please write what your point is, in one sentance, and perhaps we should then start a clear and seperate thread if there is interest to discuss this.
In support (if I know what you mean???) it was clear from our survey in 2004 http://grading.pricescope.com/ that second tier labs can be just as good or even better than top tier labs if the buyer is educated as to appropriate strictness discounts.
Linking to a long thread is a bad way to make a simple point.
Please write what your point is, in one sentance, and perhaps we should then start a clear and seperate thread if there is interest to discuss this.
In support (if I know what you mean???) it was clear from our survey in 2004 http://grading.pricescope.com/ that second tier labs can be just as good or even better than top tier labs if the buyer is educated as to appropriate strictness discounts.
Regular Guy
Ideal_Rock
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Working,
I had begun to respond to your post with 4 points, and since, see that Garry, in his demanding way, has new requirements. So, in a moment, in a follow up post I''ll respond to his. In the meantime, also realizing I''ve been threadjacking (point 1), I can''t resist being motivated by one important implication in your post...which we can also address in Garry''s response.
There may (as Garry suggests) or may not be a reasonable way to "use" EGL grading to a buyers advantage. Implicit in the possibility that there may be a way to use EGL certs wisely, is the idea that Garry expresses:
"second tier labs can be just as good or even better than top tier labs if the buyer is educated as to appropriate strictness discounts..."
I''ve emphasized Garry''s point to go where you may not have intended...but where one can think to go...which is concern about outright fraud and public policy concerns.
It just makes you realize that diamonds, in their own way, are like all of life.
Take mortgages and housing. I''m on a social action committee in my congregation, and concern has been expressed about usury in the housing market. Markets are developed to take advantage of persons who want to "get in," get an aggressively priced adjustable rate mortgage, get assessed based on their ability to pay only the low rate, get jammed up when the rate goes upwards, and get foreclosed on. And, it''s been suggested that we take it upon ourselves to make social policy to thwart off agencies being able to do this.
Personally, however, I don''t know that this is a problem or not. Certainly, there will be some people who can use the system to their advantage, and for this reason...I''m reluctant to seek to stop the program to protect those who simply use a program that, in the long run, is not good for them, even though they didn''t know that when they entered it.
So, from the point of view that EGL promises unsuspecting people to give them what they want, while misrepresenting what it is...this is, one could say, very much like an aggressive housing initiative, simply unethical, and regardless of its merits...we could reject them out of hand, as an agency that knowingly grades things that they are not.
Of course, it does not address the point Garry is suggesting...that for one using the EGL program as it could be used...it may provide a good opportunity for those who know what they are doing.
Frankly...although the first point...comparing this to the unethical practices of a mortgage program...is a reasonable concern.
The point Garry is acknowledging is where I''m starting from...and I''m asking...STILL...can using EGL make sense, if you know what you''re doing.
Now, I''ll restate the question, and see, if as educated shoppers, we can bootstrap from there. Maybe someone will help determine if this is worth a new thread.
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I have been naming the reasons for many years in many posts. I am not even going to try to go back and find them all and name them and explain them again, but I will share with you my over riding reason, the one that stands behind all the others and generates great loyalty and admiration for my lab of choice.
The single most important reason, and the reason that I prefer AGS above ALL others (Yes, I know that I could make a little more money more easily by selling only GIA, but you want to know why I prefer so I am telling you) is transparency.
AGS does the work, publishes the results, discloses all of the methodology, welcomes comments and then makes changes as necessary. Peter Yantzer has done an incredible job of harnessing the brilliance of many people from many walks of life and has fully shared the work with the trade and the public alike.
A recent example of this is sharing the early results of the scintillation study with us at the "cut band camp" on the first day of the JCK Las Vegas show. Even though he knows the work is preliminary and will most likely undergo many changes, he brought it out to the light of day and actively sought our opinions, good and bad, and listened to what the much more brilliant minds than mine had to say.
That is raw courage and belief in what he and the AGS are doing, and that they are doing it right, eventually, even though they may take a few wrong blind alleys on the way.
In their grading they are tight and they are consistent, sometimes too tight in my opinion having come up on the short end of more than one borderline call that GIA had already graded on the other side of the line. That costs me money, but I still wanted the cut information more than I wanted the higher grade and the extra fifteen percent I could have made on a couple of them. Did I argue my case? Sure. Did I win, not often. That engenders respect for their ethics.
That''s my short answer, and for me it is all the answer I need to give, I will let others add their reasons for the labs that they like.
Wink
Regular Guy
Ideal_Rock
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Well...though the point can be made...the gas to run the thing is in question....
Although Garry notes that linking to another thread adds confusion...it also adds realism. But, the linked thread has just been updated...throwing our data points in question.
The question could be asked again...OK...I will ask it. But, first...I''ve gotta observe the Heisenberg uncertainty principle may be at work...did the fact of this diamond, and EGL, is being questioned on Pricescope, give any trouble to cblake and their effort to buy it. Better stay tuned to that thread. Meanwhile, back to this one...
The question:
If you know you can get an EGL (this example, EGL Israel rated F VS1 2 carats for $15K) for a price, such that the worst guess in-accurateness applied to it would still make it a good deal (with H SI1 2 carats running $13,5 - $30 K on this board), are there other reasons apart from the defining color & clarity to give you pause, and not go forward?
Restated...what factors, apart from color & clarity being off, would make you not use any EGL?
To be fair...I''d like to see a list, pro & con.
Mentioned recently...lazerdrilling could be referenced on the list against EGL.
Frankly, for those wishing such, direct measurement could be on the list for using it.
Desired...a list of the reasons, pro & con, to consider EGL (or any other) off make certificate with a diamond. If the list provides enough grey area (i.e., it is not just a black & white - don''t use issue), some kind of weighting associated with the list & their concerns would be fab, thank you very much.
WorkingHardforSmallRewards
Brilliant_Rock
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I believe that this idea was discussed in both mine and Gary's threads but it requires a person to be able to evaluate a diamond's characteristics properly themselves in an in-person analysis/observation of the diamond.
It is kind of like insurance. There will be those who get paid out much more than they put in, but in general people will lose money to insurance and the insurance company comes out on top. Only in this case, you could learn enough and hunt through enough diamonds to ensure that you are the one to get paid out. Thus, sometimes diamonds are great values due to their discount and generally ill-thought of reputation, but overall the benefits for the vendors and labs is positive, and the consumers negative. This is all hypothetical for me, but it makes sense at least.
For me though, I am ashamed to admit, but one of the reasons I hunted out AGS was because for diamonds under 1ct GIA only offers that little card with no plot inclusion whereas AGS gives that REALLY SEXY book type whatever you call it. Wow, just to hold that soft black book makes you feel like your diamond is valuable, even if it were an MI3. lol...MI3, not favorite one, can't beat the original.
As to laser drilling, I hope it doesn't take off to be too common but is generally only used to preserve those objects which are sentimental in nature, because If it did take off I imagine it could well be a bridge into acceptance of synthetics. Which would be devastating if my 2k tiny little diamond suddenly were worth 38 bucks. Man I hope that doesn't happen for a LONG time.
strmrdr
Super_Ideal_Rock
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ok RG Im going to answer your question from the other direction...
Id buy a EGL graded diamond that has as much information as Paul(thru Wink, Gary and others),Jon, and Brian provide and Paul, Jon, Wink, Gary, or Brian graded the stone themselves and told me what they graded it as.
Then Id check the cut info and price against simular stones with the grade they grade it as and decide.
Any other way forget it not worth my time nor energy.
Under no condition will I ever buy an IGI graded stone.
note: there might be a couple others I consider it from also.. Garry dont sell stones in the US or he would be on the list.
edit 2: id still want the egl discount too :}
Id buy a EGL graded diamond that has as much information as Paul(thru Wink, Gary and others),Jon, and Brian provide and Paul, Jon, Wink, Gary, or Brian graded the stone themselves and told me what they graded it as.
Then Id check the cut info and price against simular stones with the grade they grade it as and decide.
Any other way forget it not worth my time nor energy.
Under no condition will I ever buy an IGI graded stone.
note: there might be a couple others I consider it from also.. Garry dont sell stones in the US or he would be on the list.
edit 2: id still want the egl discount too :}
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Ira when you can get this down to 1 clear sentence I would love to read and consider it.
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Wink more often than not, here downunder, my saff sell a diamond or a ring, clients first hear about grading reports after the event.
Imagine their surprise when we give them a second tier lab report that states the diamond is a higher grade than what we sold it as?
I have no problem looking in the mirror (above the waist line that grew during the last 5 weeks travelling)
Regular Guy
Ideal_Rock
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If you know you can get an EGL (this example, EGL Israel rated F VS1 2 carats for $15K) for a price, such that the worst guess in-accurateness applied to it would still make it a good deal (with H SI1 2 carats running $13,5 - $30 K on this board), are there other reasons apart from the defining color & clarity to give you pause, and not go forward?
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It is a good question for this particular consumer Ira, but it is not the basis of a new and very interesting / ground breaking thread of the sort that I imagine you are aiming for.
WorkingHardforSmallRewards
Brilliant_Rock
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Ira when you can get this down to 1 clear sentence I would love to read and consider it.[/quote]
Things seem a little complicated so I am going to try to simplify for myself mostly
:If you run a search on PS at least 88% of the 2ct H SI1 diamonds available on PS cost over 15,000 dollars, the remianing 12% cost about $1,500-0 less: Therefore if you can get a FVS1 EGL Israel cert for $15,000 the odds are that you are getting a good to fantastic deal, and very unlikely you are getting severely ripped off.
Thus it can be extended to say that if that type of discount is always available then statistically you should come out on top buying EGL certs blindly.
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As I thiought Wink, you sell diamonds, you do not flip paper.
So why not sell diamonds with IGI, EGL or calathumpian grading reports as long as those diamonds meet your minimum standards and exceede the expectations of your clients?
I think that is what Ira is getting too?
WorkingHardforSmallRewards
Brilliant_Rock
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That was my point in my original response, but I believe Regular Fella is trying to maintain the position that a 3 color or 3 clarity grade difference is EXTREMELY unlikely. I have no idea, but I am sure some of the appraisers could give some % of how often it occurs.
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Storm it is hard to find an eGL Israel that grades 2 colours and 2 clarities lower.
This I know because I had a need to find one http://journal.pricescope.com/Articles/42/1/Diamond-Grading-Labs-%e2%80%93-A-Plan-for-Peer-Review.aspx
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Two reasons:
1. More than half of my business is on the net, they don''t buy these things, at least not from me, as it is not the niche that I serve.
2. Most of the stones I sell are from Antwerp Paul. He does not have his stones papered by these lesser labs. When a I buy a stone from Paul I know already what it will look like in the idealscope and the ASET and to the EYE!!!. I know what the parameters will be and that it will be at the very worst an AGS1 cut grade for some nasty little facet that refuses to take a proper polish. If I buy from one of the above labs the odds of it being an AGS 0 or 1 grade are extremely low, and this is the niche I serve, so I am not interested in spending the time and postage to even look at them.
Wink
Regular Guy
Ideal_Rock
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Ummmmm......
Back to my question...
What''s the real possibility this is actually an F - I1, that''s been laser drilled. Though I can''t find a comprable for Fs...a G I1 on this board is worth $9K.
Also, any other possible problems unique to EGL like this one?
WorkingHardforSmallRewards
Brilliant_Rock
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If you need to find one you might want to check out that stone in question, It is an incredibly good price even as an H SI1, give it a VS rating and its SPECTACULAR and looking at other EGL prices I don''t think that kind of discount is the norm. Looks like this one may very well fit the bill.
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The F has a decent chance of being a true F...
The problem I have with EGL (usualy) is their clarity...
They have a weird system to concentrate on inclusions they see in the face up position.
I have seen quite a few VS1''s that were graded VVS with an explanation that as long as the graders dont see the VS from the table view..., it will be categorized as VVS...
That is where I have a BIG problem with them.
As far as the lower colors (I -), I have not had any experience but I understand (EGL) are softer..., but at the same time, I truely believe GIA is harch on these colors..., Way to strict sometimes.
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