Las Vegas shooting

[Maria D]

Do you own or have you ever owned a gun?

Do you realize the columbine shooters got their sawed off guns illegally? What would we do? Make illegal gun transactions even more illegal? Double illegal?

A quick google search:
-------
Robyn Anderson, a friend of Klebold and Harris, bought the shotguns and the Hi-Point 9mm Carbine at The Tanner Gun Show in December of 1998 from unlicensed sellers. Because Anderson purchased the guns for someone else, the transition constituted an illegal "straw purchase." Klebold and Harris bought the TEC-DC9 from a pizza shop employee named Mark Manes, who knew they were too young to purchase the assault pistol, but nevertheless sold it to them for $500.
---------

So, it was only an illegal purchase because the purchaser bought them for someone else. A 1994 federal law requiring criminal background checks of gun buyers applied only to sales involving licensed gunstore owners, not to private transactions involving unlicensed vendors at gun shows.

What "we could do" is make it illegal to purchase those weapons in the first place. We could impose hefty penalties to people that are accomplices to murder when they supply guns.

Do you realize that if the Columbine shooters were older they could have bought those guns legally themselves? And that no charges were filed against Anderson?

 

[redwood66]

A quick google search:
-------
Robyn Anderson, a friend of Klebold and Harris, bought the shotguns and the Hi-Point 9mm Carbine at The Tanner Gun Show in December of 1998 from unlicensed sellers. Because Anderson purchased the guns for someone else, the transition constituted an illegal "straw purchase." Klebold and Harris bought the TEC-DC9 from a pizza shop employee named Mark Manes, who knew they were too young to purchase the assault pistol, but nevertheless sold it to them for $500.
---------

So, it was only an illegal purchase because the purchaser bought them for someone else. A 1994 federal law requiring criminal background checks of gun buyers applied only to sales involving licensed gunstore owners, not to private transactions involving unlicensed vendors at gun shows.

What "we could do" is make it illegal to purchase those weapons in the first place. We could impose hefty penalties to people that are accomplices to murder when they supply guns.

Do you realize that if the Columbine shooters were older they could have bought those guns legally themselves? And that no charges were filed against Anderson?

There should be much stricter penalties for those involved in straw purchasing, especially if the guns are used in a crime. I totally agree with this. But the DOJ does not do enough, and that is not just Trump's DOJ but all of them back decades.

 

[Matata]

 

[Calliecake]

I'm sorry you seem upset and angry @redwood66 Upsetting you was not what I was trying to do. You have stated on this forum what you did for a living when you were working. I'm sure you came across some terrible people. I too may feel I needed protection if I were you. You are correct when you say this problem has been going on for 20 years. It certainly didn't start with this president.

@whitewave, My husband has a gun that is kept locked in a 1,0000 pound safe at all times. He also feels guns should be registered, there should be limits on how many guns you are allowed to have, that the types of rifles and guns that shoot multiple bullets in a matter of seconds should be outlawed. He would gladly give up his gun if it meant an end to the madness that is happening in this country.

I have been raped and beaten in my home in the middle of the night when I was in my 20's. I was on a second floor apartment when the man broke in. I did not wake up until he was standing over me and going to grab my neck. A gun would not have saved me. Responsible gun owners keep their guns locked in a safe at all times. I am fully aware there are bad people in the world.

 

[redwood66]

I'm sorry you seem upset and angry @redwood66 Upsetting you was not what I was trying to do. You have stated on this forum what you did for a living when you were working. I'm sure you came across some terrible people. I too may feel I needed protection if I were you.

@whitewave, My husband has a gun that is kept locked in a 1,0000 pound safe at all times. He also feels guns should be registered, there should be limits on how many guns you are allowed to have, that the types of rifles and guns that shoot multiple bullets in a matter of seconds should be outlawed. He would gladly give up his gun if it meant an end to the madness that is happening in this country.

I have been raped and beaten in my home in the middle of the night when I was in my 20's. I was on a second floor apartment when the man broke in. I did not wake up until he was standing over me and going to grab my neck. A gun would not have saved me. Responsible gun owners keep their guns locked in a safe at all times. I am fully aware there are bad people in the world.

I am not upset at all and only trying to give rational opinion and facts from my POV. Your husband could give up his gun now if he wanted. No one is telling anyone else they have to have a gun. While anarchists are a bit loony on some things, the non-aggression principle applies here.

I have told you before I am very sorry for what you endured. It is horrible.

 

[whitewave]

Sawed off shotguns are illegal, and were illegal at the time of Columbine. People bent on murderous rampages don't care about laws. It is also illegal to kill people.

Again, their sawed off shotguns were and are still illegal.

 

[whitewave]

I'm sorry you seem upset and angry @redwood66 Upsetting you was not what I was trying to do. You have stated on this forum what you did for a living when you were working. I'm sure you came across some terrible people. I too may feel I needed protection if I were you. You are correct when you say this problem has been going on for 20 years. It certainly didn't start with this president.

@whitewave, My husband has a gun that is kept locked in a 1,0000 pound safe at all times. He also feels guns should be registered, there should be limits on how many guns you are allowed to have, that the types of rifles and guns that shoot multiple bullets in a matter of seconds should be outlawed. He would gladly give up his gun if it meant an end to the madness that is happening in this country.

I have been raped and beaten in my home in the middle of the night when I was in my 20's. I was on a second floor apartment when the man broke in. I did not wake up until he was standing over me and going to grab my neck. A gun would not have saved me. Responsible gun owners keep their guns locked in a safe at all times. I am fully aware there are bad people in the world.

I am very sorry to hear of your tramautic past. You did what you had to do to survive and you got through it. I hope you have had lots of support in your healing journey.

I agree with 98% of what your husband said.

I have to go check on the hurricane now.... may or may not be heading straight for me....

 

[ksinger]

k

I think we have to deal with the whole culture. Is it some macho insecurity that makes one carry a gun? How do guys view guns? Why is it appropriate to pose next to the animal you killed - bad enough that you killed it, but why advertise it?

I think the culture needs to change. It is quite possible.

It is the culture of eating with the gun on the table, sleeping with the gun under your pillow, cleaning your gun in the presence of your beloved ones and carrying a loaded gun in your purse.

The culture IS changing. Those changes are driving the perceived need for more and more guns.
Guns are symbols, and as such, there's going to be lots of angst surrounding them.

They are symbols of power, self-sufficiency, yes - masculinity - "This is my rifle, this is my gun, this one's for fighting, this one's for fun", redemption, and righteousness. And fear. You don't carry a gun into a restaurant, or wear one while buying dog food, unless you're trying to communicate something, and it generally is something pretty aggressively ideological. People are not wrong to see it that way, in spite of all disingenuous attempts at "we're JUST exercising our rights". That's a load of codswallop. It's just the latest, highest tech aggressive primate genital display, that's all. People are right to fear such displays, and avoid them whenever possible.

About that gun fascination - I have a friend I used to hang with a lot but don't get together with much anymore - basic life changes - marriage (mine), work, health, that sort of thing. I saw him not terribly long ago. While we were visiting and catching up, he got up in the middle of our conversation, got a gun and set it on the end table between our chairs. He indicated he usually had it within arms reach at home, at all times, and then prattled on for a bit about guns and how cool they were. This guy had never had a gun until just recently. He lives in a nice neighborhood with low crime, has an alarm system, has never been a victim of crime in the past. But while we were living our lives apart, he turned into an old, scared white guy. And bought a gun.

 

[monarch64]

Have I not related the story of the day I came home to find my entire street and neighborhood blocked off, SWAT team walking back to their vehicles? There were 15 LE vehicles surrounding an area that included the home I rent. Fortunately I came at the right time and everyone was disbanding. I don't communicate much with the neighbors--we keep an eye on each other for security purposes but that's it--so waited for the news report instead.

Guy down the street, maybe a block away, decided he had the feely-feels one day, and was going to really show his wife she should'nta messed with him. She works at a daycare/preschool here in town. He shows up at said facility with divorce papers, plunks those, along with his wedding band, down on the counter inside, walks out, and fires his gun in the air ON THE PROPERTY IN THE PRESENCE OF LITTLE KIDS.

When they arrested him, they also confiscated SIXTEEN guns. All it took to accomplish what he did was one, so why the need for 15 others?

My (god will this ever end)to be ex-husband, when I told him about it, said "yeah, I know that guy. It's too bad. He's such a nice guy and this was just a poor choice on his part." A poor choice. roll:roll A poor choice is eating 3 desserts in one sitting. A full-on criminal act is what this guy did. But you see how he's excused...if that had happened at our daughter's school you can bet my stbx would be singing a completely different tune and DEMANDING prosecution to the fullest extent. Puke.

 

[OreoRosies86]

Have I not related the story of the day I came home to find my entire street and neighborhood blocked off, SWAT team walking back to their vehicles? There were 15 LE vehicles surrounding an area that included the home I rent. Fortunately I came at the right time and everyone was disbanding. I don't communicate much with the neighbors--we keep an eye on each other for security purposes but that's it--so waited for the news report instead.

Guy down the street, maybe a block away, decided he had the feely-feels one day, and was going to really show his wife she should'nta messed with him. She works at a daycare/preschool here in town. He shows up at said facility with divorce papers, plunks those, along with his wedding band, down on the counter inside, walks out, and fires his gun in the air ON THE PROPERTY IN THE PRESENCE OF LITTLE KIDS.

When they arrested him, they also confiscated SIXTEEN guns. All it took to accomplish what he did was one, so why the need for 15 others?

My (god will this ever end)to be ex-husband, when I told him about it, said "yeah, I know that guy. It's too bad. He's such a nice guy and this was just a poor choice on his part." A poor choice. roll:roll A poor choice is eating 3 desserts in one sitting. A full-on criminal act is what this guy did. But you see how he's excused...if that had happened at our daughter's school you can bet my stbx would be singing a completely different tune and DEMANDING prosecution to the fullest extent. Puke.

Not too long ago an angry husband of a teacher walked into her school with a gun, killing her and another student. It is NOT "a few bad apples" despite what gun nuts tell themselves.

 

[redwood66]

k


The culture IS changing. Those changes are driving the perceived need for more and more guns.
Guns are symbols, and as such, there's going to be lots of angst surrounding them.

They are symbols of power, self-sufficiency, yes - masculinity - "This is my rifle, this is my gun, this one's for fighting, this one's for fun", redemption, and righteousness. And fear. You don't carry a gun into a restaurant, or wear one while buying dog food, unless you're trying to communicate something, and it generally is something pretty aggressively ideological. People are not wrong to see it that way, in spite of all disingenuous attempts at "we're JUST exercising our rights". That's a load of codswallop. It's just the latest, highest tech aggressive primate genital display, that's all. People are right to fear such displays, and avoid them whenever possible.

About that gun fascination - I have a friend I used to hang with a lot but don't get together with much anymore - basic life changes - marriage (mine), work, health, that sort of thing. I saw him not terribly long ago. While we were visiting and catching up, he got up in the middle of our conversation, got a gun and set it on the end table between our chairs. He indicated he usually had it within arms reach at home, at all times, and then prattled on for a bit about guns and how cool they were. This guy had never had a gun until just recently. He lives in a nice neighborhood with low crime, has an alarm system, has never been a victim of crime in the past. But while we were living our lives apart, he turned into an old, scared white guy. And bought a gun.

As far as carrying in restaurants, getting dog food and the like, conceal carry means just that. No one should know that they are carrying if they are doing it properly. Which leads me to your friend. He sounds like a newly minted gun owner with the issue you are talking about. This does not make him a bad person but it does give gun owners in general a bad rep when people act like this. I can't believe he took out his pistol and put it on the table. I would never open carry simply because it makes others uncomfortable and is not necessary. I also try to pass along wisdom to new gun owners because they are representing us as a whole and making things worse does not help the issue. Some are open to it and some get offended but I still try.

 

[whitewave]

Btw, CNN reported earlier that he planned to blow his car up, but I think we already figured that out.

 

[katharath]

Just discovered that our friend's sister was shot that night. She's still alive but it's not looking good.

ETA - I've never met the sister so I don't know her; the friend is a coworker/friend of DH's that we've known for @14 yrs. It's just sad to hear. It was a big enough tragedy and Las Vegas is relatively small enough that it seems like everyone I know has some peripheral connection, even if very small like ours.

 

[kenny]

Just discovered that our friend's sister was shot that night. She's still alive but it's not looking good.

Very sorry to hear this.

 

[t-c]

Sawed off shotguns are illegal, and were illegal at the time of Columbine. People bent on murderous rampages don't care about laws. It is also illegal to kill people.

Again, their sawed off shotguns were and are still illegal.

Are you saying that because the laws we have now regarding guns are not 100% effective that we should not bother trying to pass any laws regulating guns? Many laws are flawed, with loopholes. Why not allow us to improve them?

 

[katharath]

Very sorry to hear this.

Thanks Kenny, that's kind of you to say, but I don't want to give the wrong impression; I was just updating my post as you wrote that. To clarify, I don't actually know her, but we've known her brother a long time, and I do think it's very sad.

 

[redwood66]

Just discovered that our friend's sister was shot that night. She's still alive but it's not looking good.

ETA - I've never met the sister so I don't know her; the friend is a coworker/friend of DH's that we've known for @14 yrs. It's just sad to hear. It was a big enough tragedy and Las Vegas is relatively small enough that it seems like everyone I know has some peripheral connection, even if very small like ours.

I am very sorry to hear this.

 

[whitewave]

Are you saying that because the laws we have now regarding guns are not 100% effective that we should not bother trying to pass any laws regulating guns? Many laws are flawed, with loopholes. Why not allow us to improve them?

No. Not what I was saying

 

[whitewave]

A friend of mine was there. She and her husband escaped uninjured. (I haven't seen her in over ten years; we keep up through Facebook).

 

[OreoRosies86]

Just discovered that our friend's sister was shot that night. She's still alive but it's not looking good.

ETA - I've never met the sister so I don't know her; the friend is a coworker/friend of DH's that we've known for @14 yrs. It's just sad to hear. It was a big enough tragedy and Las Vegas is relatively small enough that it seems like everyone I know has some peripheral connection, even if very small like ours.

 

[Calliecake]

@whitewave I am fine and have been fine for many years. This happened when I was young and I was lucky I had good insurance that paid for a year of therapy. The only reason I posted about what I went thru is because i was waiting for someone to say that there are reasons people need guns for protection. I lived it and a gun would not have prevented the attack. Guns provide a false sense of security and have the possibility of harming your family is much more likely than keeping you safe from an intruder.

 

[Calliecake]

Just discovered that our friend's sister was shot that night. She's still alive but it's not looking good.

ETA - I've never met the sister so I don't know her; the friend is a coworker/friend of DH's that we've known for @14 yrs. It's just sad to hear. It was a big enough tragedy and Las Vegas is relatively small enough that it seems like everyone I know has some peripheral connection, even if very small like ours.

Kath, I'm so sorry to hear this. My heart goes out to your friend and her family. I'm sorry Kath (((hugs)))

 

[whitewave]

@whitewave I am fine and have been fine for many years. This happened when I was young and I was lucky I had good insurance that paid for a year of therapy. The only reason I posted about what I went thru is because i was waiting for someone to say that there are reasons people need guns for protection. I lived it and a gun would not have prevented the attack. Guns provide a false sense of security and have the possibility of harming your family is much more likely than keeping you safe from an intruder.

Yes, I understand.

While it can't compare to your story, my husband used a gun to successfully defend us from a criminal for 20 minutes before the police arrived. (At a high profile sporting event you all know of. DH has a CC permit and this was a state with a reciprocal agreement with my state)

Our friends (in a high end, no crime neighborhood) used a rifle to defend themselves and hold a meth head at bay in the kitchen until the police arrived.

You can see how I see that guns have absolutely defended me until the police could get there.

 

[in-the-air]

Heart is so heavy everytime I hear about this tragedy

 

[t-c]

No. Not what I was saying

Well, what are you saying, exactly?

 

[whitewave]

Well, what are you saying, exactly?

Exactly what I said. Criminals have no use for laws.

That doesn't mean I think we should abolish all laws and descend into anarchy.

 

[t-c]

Exactly what I said. Criminals have no use for laws.

That doesn't mean I think we should abolish all laws and descend into anarchy.

I was asking about making laws, not abolishing them. Why are you so afraid to explicitly present your position? If you feel it's justified, defend it.

 

[whitewave]

I was asking about making laws, not abolishing them. Why are you so afraid to explicitly present your position? If you feel it's justified, defend it.

Did you miss my posts? I've expressed myself rather well.

I assume you understood that I meant we shouldn't abolish all laws, current and future ones included.

 

[t-c]

Did you miss my posts? I've expressed myself rather well.

I assume you understood that I meant we shouldn't abolish all laws, current and future ones included.

Again, I'm not talking about abolishing laws. And I know you aren't talking about abolishing laws either. But what is your point when you say "those guns are illegal". I mean it's not just to state the obvious, is it? It's not like the anti-gun people are completely stupid -- the most active posters here have read the news reports (from this and previous mass shootings) and know whether the guns were obtained illegally or modified illegally. But really, legality is beside the point. Their/my position is whether the guns were legal or illegal, it should, with future legislation, be more closely regulated and limited.

Also, while it is great to learn more about guns, it really isn't necessary to take a stand against them. Because in reality, it isn't really the guns but how they can be used by people, that is really outrageous. Face it, if there were never any or very few gun homicides, people wouldn't think of trying to limit them. Likewise, if someone figures out a way to kill and injure hundreds of people with bubble gum and mass murders or injuries by bubble gum begin happening daily, you can bet that lots of people will want legislation to limit bubble gum use and access.

 

[Arkteia]

k


The culture IS changing. Those changes are driving the perceived need for more and more guns.
Guns are symbols, and as such, there's going to be lots of angst surrounding them.

They are symbols of power, self-sufficiency, yes - masculinity - "This is my rifle, this is my gun, this one's for fighting, this one's for fun", redemption, and righteousness. And fear. You don't carry a gun into a restaurant, or wear one while buying dog food, unless you're trying to communicate something, and it generally is something pretty aggressively ideological. People are not wrong to see it that way, in spite of all disingenuous attempts at "we're JUST exercising our rights". That's a load of codswallop. It's just the latest, highest tech aggressive primate genital display, that's all. People are right to fear such displays, and avoid them whenever possible.

About that gun fascination - I have a friend I used to hang with a lot but don't get together with much anymore - basic life changes - marriage (mine), work, health, that sort of thing. I saw him not terribly long ago. While we were visiting and catching up, he got up in the middle of our conversation, got a gun and set it on the end table between our chairs. He indicated he usually had it within arms reach at home, at all times, and then prattled on for a bit about guns and how cool they were. This guy had never had a gun until just recently. He lives in a nice neighborhood with low crime, has an alarm system, has never been a victim of crime in the past. But while we were living our lives apart, he turned into an old, scared white guy. And bought a gun.

Very well put.

You know, Anton Chekhov, famous Russian writer and playwright, formulated the principle of writing that is called "Chekhov's gun". (Basically, nothing irrelevant). "If there is a gun hanging on the wall in chapter one, it should absolutely go off in chapter three".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov's_gun

Of course, it was a metaphor. He did not mean that a real rifle should necessarily go off. However, even literally, he was not off the mark. There are many people who collect guns, and open carry them, I think, the same way we wear our jewelry - so that a neighbor will say, "Wow!" . When I think about these collections, and some people acquire 75 or more guns, I can not but wonder, how soon will one of them go off? You are looking at your beauties day and night, you are probably imagining something, what if at this moment someone knocks at your door? Someone who lost his way, or a neighbor asking for some help? How easy is it to put one of these guns to good use? (Because subconsciously you have been waiting for this situation, for years, and this is your chance to show that you are able to "protect").

And then the consequences. If you accidentally hit a pedestrian with a car, even if it is not your fault, even if the person was reckless on the road - for sure, there is heavy liability to follow. However, very often, like in two situations I have described (a grandmother whose granddaughter grabbed a loaded gun from her purse and killed herself, as well as the man who accidentally shot his 22-year old child), no charges are pressed. "Tragic accidents", you know.