Las Vegas shooting

[arkieb1]

Redwood, thank you for the explanation. I think what I am hearing is that people like guns for sport, a hobby, they collect them. I'm not sure if you have ever watched the Jim Jefferies clip that Sox posted - I know that both the language and what he says might be offensive to many of you, but he makes a really excellent point at the end of the video and that is that better gun control laws and less guns isn't some type of attack on the rights of the many many decent people that know how to use them and always handle them responsibly.

He states, better gun control laws and less guns in general as a concept is aimed at the tiny percentage of dickheads in your society that have the potential to do the wrong thing with them. Having less guns and stricter gun laws so that idiots that should never own guns, the mentally unstable, criminals, and people that do want to use them in the wrong way have less access them. I can remember clearly gun owners in Australia didn't want to give up their guns, there was a negative scare campaign with it, but in the end it was about doing something to ensure a higher level of safety for all, putting more safeguards in place so that the percentage of the population that are idiots that could potentially do the wrong thing are limited by what they can and can't do.

I don't think having few guns over all with less people allowed to own them would be a completely bad thing Whitewave, Redwood and others, and you seem to be responsible well thought out gun owners, I'm talking about less guns in the hands of the "dickheads" not people that can prove they can responsibly own them.

 

[redwood66]

Oh, and just in case anyone here thought ksinger and hubs are 2nd amendment fundamentalists, here are some of his suggestions for things to try. It will be too too much for the staunchly ideological, and not nearly enough for the "make-em-all-illegal-yesterday" crowd. Pisses everyone off. They have to be good then, right?

This is something he just wrote on this very topic, on his pet forum, a very wild west place indeed. I lifted it.

"Here are a few but first to state the goal of the legislation, to reduce the frequency and lethality of mass shootings. Notice reduce rather than eliminate. Unrealistic extremes on both sides should be ignored.

A) Permit to purchase card. Go to your state law enforcement office, get a background check and a card with a magnetic stripe. Create a database of prohibited possessors (convicted felons etc ala 4473) and a simple swipe provides a transfer number. If denied, a procedure for speedy appeal installed.

B move AR and AK platform weapons to Class III status and open up an amnesty period (at the same time, get rid of red star classification). The same logic for restricting full auto, the ability to inflict mass casualties by untrained individuals, can be applied to the two platforms.

C Add a zero to the transfer stamp fee. There has never been a crime committed with a legal Class III weapon (that I can find) so we know the system works. Upgrade the 1930's fee to the 21st century.

Yes, some people will choose become illegal weapon owners but the majority will not if for no other reason than the increase in value of their weapons. The sporting impact will be mminimal as the role these weapons fill can be fulfilled by other tools."

I can get on board with some of it. I don't care about current Class III weapons because I like diamonds better. The current 4473 process is a pain in the a$$ and if I could swipe a card and be done then fine. But no database of regular gun owners because people who own guns should not be treated as criminals. Known criminals absolutely. They have made choices that deem their rights should be abridged. I am iffy on B because the weapons are so popular that you are now making a database of law abiding gun owners. C sounds like a way for the government to make $. I don't think any of this will stop mass shootings like Vegas. The extreme anti gun crowd doesn't care if legislation works, they want to punish gun owners and that became apparent to me in this thread when it was actually admitted, albeit in different words. This is why gun owners don't trust them or congresspeople with the same ideology.

 

[Matata]

I'm talking about less guns in the hands of the "dickheads" not people that can prove they can responsibly own them.

Who is a dickhead and who can/may/will become a dickhead is impossible to determine. People have repeatedly stated that you can't control people so the only thing to do is control guns. I like the idea of limits to the number and type one can own, locking up sporting guns at sporting facilities when not in use, and a few other things suggested here and in other venues. There is no easy solution and a multi-prong approach is needed to limit the number of gun deaths in this country.

 

[redwood66]

Indeed. What we are seeing is a true spiritual crisis. And I'm not talking about religion here. I'm talking about we (collective) making true what we hold in our minds. Arguing for our own limitations. Arming to the teeth. Pulling back from fear of failing. It seems a collective madness. I can't see what will end it, but something surely will. It's going to have to be very painful and self-inflicted, not something that can remotely be externalized.

Americans have always been really really bad at dealing with our own reality, our real history. We've happily accepted the sop of deliberately constructed national myths. Now the wheel of fortune is turning, and the fit is starting to finally really hit the shan. I think we are living through what will be called by later historians, the end of the American Empire. It happens, we're just not going to last as long as Rome, or Egypt. It's not unlike personal death, we understand that it happens to everyone, but we never quite can wrap our heads around it happening to us.

Ugh this makes me sad to think about with kids who are in their 20's. But I can somewhat agree with you and still have hope that we can turn off or ignore the extremes on both ends or help those that have gone astray.

 

[cmd2014]

Jim Jeffries has good points. This probably needs to be looked at the same way as every other thing that governments have had to regulate, everywhere, because when you are looking at large scale population data it becomes incredibly clear that people are just not able to be responsible. Most can, but many can't, and we need to actively protect the majority from the few who can't be trusted to keep themselves or others safe. It's why we have to have laws about drunk driving, using drugs, molesting children, stealing stuff, assaulting each other, and killing each other - and why these laws have to be actively enforced, everywhere, all of the time. Because as a whole, people cannot self-regulate. Even professionals. It's why we have to have disciplinary bodies like the Bar Association, State Boards of Examiners, and the like. It's not because the majority aren't responsible people. It's because there is a sizeable minority that aren't, and that sizeable minority has the capability of causing a significant amount of harm.

Surely this can't be considered acceptable, no matter what your politics:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/oct/02/america-mass-shootings-gun-violence

 

[Tekate]

I think Clinton is a non issue personally. She isn't mucking much up since she isn't an elected official, she's more like Jimmy Kimmel now, a voice. A silencer to my mind only means it's easier to kill one person and get away. My concern is mass shootings and suicides personally @redwood66 I wish we could go back to the days when I was a kid, nobody had a gun except those people who hunted, my dad had a gun that he kept at his job as a bank guard. Our gun culture is out of control.

@Tekate both Arcadian and I have already said that bump stocks should be banned in this thread. The shooter had 12 of them and he should not have had any.

And to the comment by Hillary Clinton about silencers that was repeated here - Had the shooter had a suppressor on his weapons the devastation would likely have been less. A supressor (which does not make the noise inaudible) traps the gases inside. At the rapid rate he was firing the rifle would likely have malfunctioned before he finished a single magazine not to mention likely burning up the suppressor from the heat the rapid shooting caused. Our military teams like SEALS and Delta do not fire their suppressed weapons continuously because they know this fact. Short 3-4 round deadly aimed bursts are what they use and at relatively close range. People who know nothing about weapons like Clinton should not muck up the issue with incorrect info that people repeat.

That said I don't think access to silencers should be made easier. It is fine the way it is with the registration process and tax.

 

[Tekate]

I feel republicans are all about saving the unborn life (their term) and who cares about the kid at a Jason Aldean show. I will never get it. Never will. Peace.

The problem is the republicans don't want to start fixing this at all. They have no problem if people die just as long as they get to keep their guns. If 20 small children being riddled with bullets didn't change their attitude I seriously doubt 600 people being shot will either. Now if the shooter was a Muslim all sorts of things would be changed. Trump would be yelling that this can never happen again. New laws would be put in place. If it's a white man doing the shooting nothing happens. Just lots of prayers.

 

[redwood66]

I think Clinton is a non issue personally. She isn't mucking much up since she isn't an elected official, she's more like Jimmy Kimmel now, a voice. A silencer to my mind only means it's easier to kill one person and get away. My concern is mass shootings and suicides personally @redwood66 I wish we could go back to the days when I was a kid, nobody had a gun except those people who hunted, my dad had a gun that he kept at his job as a bank guard. Our gun culture is out of control.

The reference to Clinton was only because of the misinformation she spread about suppressors. Misinformation for the purpose of whipping people up never helps no matter who says it.

I wish a lot of things were different and most of them happen to coincide with the advent of internet and video games. IMO we have a violence culture and some of them happen to have guns. The suicides are a whole nother issue that I am not able to weigh in on and would never try to decide policy other than people need help.

 

[Tekate]

Yes because you may be a crystal meth lab owner.. it's ludicrous. It's insane.

Facts on crime from Pew.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/21/5-facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/

Here's Maine from 2015.

chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/http://www.maine.gov/dps/cim/crime_in_maine/2015pdf/010 Summary.pdf

I will say I have a home alarm system but it was in the house by the previous owner who built the house. I can hear guns shooting all the time if I sit outside as their is a gun club right down the road (when I lived in NY it was the same, wake up to Sat morning after partying at 7:00 a.m. BANG BANG etc).

People hunt up here in Maine, I have no problem with that. If I lived in the Bronx again I may have a gun but where I lived in now totally gentrified There are pockets of crime in America where one lives could be fatal, but not so much in suburbia. People want guns to feel powerful.

@Tekate Azstonie and I were talking this afternoon about how we have to show ID and sign on the dotted line for our damn Zyrtec D allergy meds so the government can track that we are not buying more than one pack every 30 days and yet you can get a gun so easily. No one makes you wait 30 days to buy another one. NO flags are raised if you buy a new gun every day. It's insane.

 

[Tekate]

Yes there is often misinformation on both sides. That is why I stick to stats as best I can. I suppose silencers could help one kill more people at once as it would be a bit quieter but from the 32nd floor like you say and others have said, it wouldn't have mattered.

The reference to Clinton was only because of the misinformation she spread about suppressors. Misinformation for the purpose of whipping people up never helps no matter who says it.

I wish a lot of things were different and most of them happen to coincide with the internet and video games. IMO we have a violence culture and some of them happen to have guns. The suicides are a whole nother issue that I am not able to weigh in on and would never try to decide policy other than people need help.

 

[msop04]

...I wish we could go back to the days when I was a kid, nobody had a gun except those people who hunted, my dad had a gun that he kept at his job as a bank guard. Our gun culture is out of control.

I just wanted to add that this is completely relative to your culture and where you grew up. During many conversations on the gun issues we face in America, my FIL and his brothers (from rural AL) would talk about how every single one of their HS friends kept guns in their cars/trucks when they were in HS (from late 1950s - late 1970s, lots of siblings many years apart). They said sometimes the principal might notice their gun(s) sitting in their truck and want to look at them and ask questions... then they'd talk about them, and he'd show them his guns... it was a non-issue. Way more people casually carried back then, young and old. This is just a testament to how guns themselves really haven't changed, people have -- the laws are much stricter, yet there is more gun violence.

 

[redwood66]

People want guns to feel powerful.

I will respectfully disagree with you on this.

 

[redwood66]

I just wanted to add that this is completely relative to your culture and where you grew up. During many conversations on the gun issues we face in America, my FIL and his brothers (from rural AL) would talk about how every single one of their HS friends kept guns in their cars/trucks when they were in HS (from late 1950s - late 1970s, lots of siblings many years apart). They said sometimes the principal might notice their gun(s) sitting in their truck and want to look at them and ask questions... then they'd talk about them, and he'd show them his guns... it was a non-issue. Way more people casually carried back then, young and old. This is just a testament to how guns themselves really haven't changed, people have -- the laws are much stricter, yet there is more gun violence.

This is absolutely correct because my HS was totally the same and it was in California. There was no stigma or romance about guns. They were just there.

 

[redwood66]

Yes because you may be a crystal meth lab owner.. it's ludicrous. It's insane.

Facts on crime from Pew.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/21/5-facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/

Here's Maine from 2015.

chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/http://www.maine.gov/dps/cim/crime_in_maine/2015pdf/010 Summary.pdf

I will say I have a home alarm system but it was in the house by the previous owner who built the house. I can hear guns shooting all the time if I sit outside as their is a gun club right down the road (when I lived in NY it was the same, wake up to Sat morning after partying at 7:00 a.m. BANG BANG etc).

People hunt up here in Maine, I have no problem with that. If I lived in the Bronx again I may have a gun but where I lived in now totally gentrified There are pockets of crime in America where one lives could be fatal, but not so much in suburbia. People want guns to feel powerful.

The Pew article is interesting and shows that violence is way down from the 90's. The media and anti gun lobby make it seem like it is way more which is again misinformation because they don't usually discuss inconvenient info like this.

 

[Matata]

A couple social media sources are reporting that the shooter has booked a hotel overlooking the Lollapalooza event but didn't show up. Jeezus.

 

[lyra]

I feel like the media frenzy is just creating a guideline of how to commit the perfect massacre. That's surely part of the problem too. The next guy will have a lot more information to go by for sure.

 

[monarch64]

Guys, guys, guys. I have the solution. Instead of taking away guns or making them SO HARD TO GET (haha!) we need standard-issue bulletproof vests for every citizen to wear WHENEVER they are in a school, commercial or government building with more than 10 people inside, stadium, concert venue, shopping mall, etc. Minor inconvenience, and a small price to pay for all the enthusiasts out there who need more than 1-2 guns per person/per household.

Also, each citizen or facility (haven't fleshed this all out yet, npi) should be equipped with a gunshot wound first aid kit, and in public schools there should be a basic training class for a. how to handle mass shootings, and b. how to field dress gunshot wounds/save lives.

Problem solved!

 

[t-c]

Oh, and just in case anyone here thought ksinger and hubs are 2nd amendment fundamentalists, here are some of his suggestions for things to try. It will be too too much for the staunchly ideological, and not nearly enough for the "make-em-all-illegal-yesterday" crowd. Pisses everyone off. They have to be good then, right?

This is something he just wrote on this very topic, on his pet forum, a very wild west place indeed. I lifted it.

"Here are a few but first to state the goal of the legislation, to reduce the frequency and lethality of mass shootings. Notice reduce rather than eliminate. Unrealistic extremes on both sides should be ignored.

A) Permit to purchase card. Go to your state law enforcement office, get a background check and a card with a magnetic stripe. Create a database of prohibited possessors (convicted felons etc ala 4473) and a simple swipe provides a transfer number. If denied, a procedure for speedy appeal installed.

B move AR and AK platform weapons to Class III status and open up an amnesty period (at the same time, get rid of red star classification). The same logic for restricting full auto, the ability to inflict mass casualties by untrained individuals, can be applied to the two platforms.

C Add a zero to the transfer stamp fee. There has never been a crime committed with a legal Class III weapon (that I can find) so we know the system works. Upgrade the 1930's fee to the 21st century.

Yes, some people will choose become illegal weapon owners but the majority will not if for no other reason than the increase in value of their weapons. The sporting impact will be mminimal as the role these weapons fill can be fulfilled by other tools."

ETA - Oh, and don't expect that I can get down in the weeds on this on replies. I can't. Bore-you-to-death gun minutiae is his bailiwick, not mine. (He's a joy at war movies, or watching TV, trust me) He likely won't come back here - having hummingbird tendencies. So have fun guys!

Add a registry of gun owners and their guns. The FBI tracks the orders of chemicals that can be used to synthesize illegal drugs. Who orders radioisotopes, how much they order, and who can use it are regulated; same with other extremely toxic molecules. Why can't we do the same for guns? Maybe we'll see a pattern of increased gun buying and slow down or limit their purchases.

An aside, here's a woman who had a valid concealed gun license. She pulls out a gun when her 20-year old daughter got into a fight over a notebook at a Novi, Michigan Walmart. They ended up with the notebook. According to Slate, the police are looking to see if what the woman did could be deemed self-defense.

 

[ksinger]

Guys, guys, guys. I have the solution. Instead of taking away guns or making them SO HARD TO GET (haha!) we need standard-issue bulletproof vests for every citizen to wear WHENEVER they are in a school, commercial or government building with more than 10 people inside, stadium, concert venue, shopping mall, etc. Minor inconvenience, and a small price to pay for all the enthusiasts out there who need more than 1-2 guns per person/per household.

Also, each citizen or facility (haven't fleshed this all out yet, npi) should be equipped with a gunshot wound first aid kit, and in public schools there should be a basic training class for a. how to handle mass shootings, and b. how to field dress gunshot wounds/save lives.

Problem solved!

Ha ha.

You remember Perry? Do you remember him arguing (at length) that schools should be teaching gun safety? I slipped a few cogs at that one. I'll also never forget the hub's response after Sandy Hook when everyone thought armed teachers would be a good thing. "That's the stupidest idea since abstinence only sex ed." Indeed.

 

[katharath]

I guess I'm pretty much at my wits' end. If gun enthusiasts can't even take a day off from demanding MOAR GUN RIGHTS while we bury the dead, then all human decency is long gone. (Well, that said - we already knew it was mostly gone when a man said "grab them by the pvssy!" and 60 million Americans said, "he's got my vote!". And of course the biggest irony of all is that those voters consider *themselves* to be the "moral" ones, LOLOL!)

Our country is so broken. I feel like I am personally getting overwhelmed just trying to wake up and face the news every day. I'm considering taking a 1-2 week break from ALL news/social media/etc just to see if it helps.

 

[ksinger]

Add a registry of gun owners and their guns. The FBI tracks the orders of chemicals that can be used to synthesize illegal drugs. Who orders radioisotopes, how much they order, and who can use it are regulated; same with other extremely toxic molecules. Why can't we do the same for guns? Maybe we'll see a pattern of increased gun buying and slow down or limit their purchases.

An aside, here's a woman who had a valid concealed gun license. She pulls out a gun when her 20-year old daughter got into a fight over a notebook at a Novi, Michigan Walmart. They ended up with the notebook. According to Slate, the police are looking to see if what the woman did could be deemed self-defense.

I can't speak for Michigan, but let it be said right now, that a CC license in OK, requires that you have a pulse, an IQ over 40, and can breathe through your mouth. (Oops: just ran this by the hubs. He's pretty sure they don't actually check for the pulse)

Oh, and in a truly just world, say in Texas? or even here, another equally cool customer would have drawn another perfectly legal CC weapon, and shot the woman.

The whole situation is so bloody stupid, sometimes it gets to me. When I can't buy dog food without some guy swaggering in wearing a pistol, you know the end is nigh. Or something.

 

[t-c]

The Pew article is interesting and shows that violence is way down from the 90's. The media and anti gun lobby make it seem like it is way more which is again misinformation because they don't usually discuss inconvenient info like this.

We're getting better at keeping shooting victims alive?

 

[minousbijoux]

Jim Jeffries has good points. This probably needs to be looked at the same way as every other thing that governments have had to regulate, everywhere, because when you are looking at large scale population data it becomes incredibly clear that people are just not able to be responsible. Most can, but many can't, and we need to actively protect the majority from the few who can't be trusted to keep themselves or others safe. It's why we have to have laws about drunk driving, using drugs, molesting children, stealing stuff, assaulting each other, and killing each other - and why these laws have to be actively enforced, everywhere, all of the time. Because as a whole, people cannot self-regulate. Even professionals. It's why we have to have disciplinary bodies like the Bar Association, State Boards of Examiners, and the like. It's not because the majority aren't responsible people. It's because there is a sizeable minority that aren't, and that sizeable minority has the capability of causing a significant amount of harm.

Surely this can't be considered acceptable, no matter what your politics:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/oct/02/america-mass-shootings-gun-violence

Wow, cmd, thank you. That visual is hugely effective. I am so disillusioned that I have nothing to add, but appreciate the dialogue of this thread.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Gang violence is a totally different animal. It is largely contained to its own neighborhoods. Someone on this forum said they were more likely to be shot by a gang member? Not if you stay out of their areas. I've lived through two shootings. Both in my old neighborhood. Once I moved to affluent suburbia, nothing. I believe that we have the means for reducing the amount of gang violence in our nation, but that has everything to do with policy change in our poor areas such as education and basic needs so that there are fewer gang members in the first place. Something the conservatives aren't interested in either.

Yup, The Dem. Mayor is doing a great job in Chicago stopping gang violence..

 

[autumngems]

I do believe in the right to bear arms. My spouse is a retired Marine and he has lots of guns, he had to go through backgrounds checks and all that stuff to get them. He also has a CC permit, He received awards for shooting in the Marines and attended several tournaments for them. Guns are his hobby, he shoots at the range, in regular tournaments and such. I can't even tell you how many he has because they all have different uses and are for different shooting scenarios as well as him being a hunter.

 

[kenny]

Poor aim, texting while shooting?

 

[Arkteia]

Hi Arkie. I don't know what you mean by rapid fire weapons. Automatic weapons are already illegal unless you have gone through the process to purchase one which is extensive and no new ones have been made since 1986 for purchase by the general public. Modifying a semi auto to fire fully automatic is already illegal. Bump stocks should be illegal and Arcadian and I already said that. If you mean all semi-automatics that is the largest type of rifles and handguns that are currently sold and that does not include the illegal ones that are on the streets. If you mean "assault" type scary black weapons that is a silly description designed to whip up anti gun people because there are plenty of rifles that are not considered an "assault" weapon but will do the same damage. My Mini 14 is one of them and was not among the prior banned weapons because it did not look scary enough I guess. The looks of a weapon do nothing to make it more deadly. People who do not know about weapons are easily led to believe many things by people with other than altruistic motives. I wish the media people tried to be more accurate in the information they give out. ksinger's Unicorn gave excellent descriptive information on weapon types.

I am against confiscation or banning of semi autos and have no suggestions other than what I have already noted. The previous semi auto ban did not do what was intended and a new one would not either. If confiscation is the only suggestion by the anti gun people then we are at an impasse and will continue to be. But as lyra said I am not the spokesperson and people should talk to their congresspeople if they want things changed.

All of what I say is meant to provide accurate information that is not laden with emotion because this issue is already emotional enough.

(I am not disclosing a secret because that group is open). But today someone explained how to use a semi-automatic rifle higher than .22 (I don't quite understand what it means) as the automatic one without bumper stocks. And also showed a 3-d printed semi-automatic rifle.

Don't think that the psychos planning the next mass shooting don't notice these news. They are well aware of all the novelties. There are tons of Youtube videos, and you can not strip the internet off all these "innovations". Plus there is Dark Web.

This is why the ban will not work. People will start printing and making their own stuff and you can not confiscate 3-d printers. Taxing and raising prices and actually viewing it as state monopoly would work. Treat printing a gun like moonshine whiskey or contraband cigarettes or selling pot on the streets as opposed to stores (but much higher penalties).

I guess the dealerships selling the LV psycho guns also violated certain laws. We need to explore where the leaks in the system are. With the current laws on gun transfer, things are much easier.

 

[Arkteia]

Meth. Meth is a scourge here.

Handguns for target practice and self-defense.

Rifles for hunting.

AR15 for huntung (yes, some do) and self defense, etc. Recreational shooting, etc.

100% agree. I am seriously beginning to wonder if abundance of the conspiracy theories is meth-induced. You can not have that many stupid people in the country, but meth is rampant, and it can cause very flawed thinking.

 

[redwood66]

(I am not disclosing a secret because that group is open). But today someone explained how to use a semi-automatic rifle higher than .22 (I don't quite understand what it means) as the automatic one without bumper stocks. And also showed a 3-d printed semi-automatic rifle.

Don't think that the psychos planning the next mass shooting don't notice these news. They are well aware of all the novelties. There are tons of Youtube videos, and you can not strip the internet off all these "innovations". Plus there is Dark Web.

This is why the ban will not work. People will start printing and making their own stuff and you can not confiscate 3-d printers. Taxing and raising prices and actually viewing it as state monopoly would work. Treat printing a gun like moonshine whiskey or contraband cigarettes or selling pot on the streets as opposed to stores (but much higher penalties).

I guess the dealerships selling the LV psycho guns also violated certain laws. We need to explore where the leaks in the system are. With the current laws on gun transfer, things are much easier.

There are things on the internet that make me question the sanity of people every day and it's not just about guns that's for sure. You can make your own bump stocks pretty simply and do some things with rubber bands that I am not sure I understand.

 

[OreoRosies86]

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1728741360490680&id=908009612563863