Las Vegas shooting

[Calliecake]

Save the platitudes. I'm not angry because of these horrible acts. I'm angry and frustrated because these horrible acts KEEP HAPPENING. I'm sick and tired of people who say they feel terrible for the victims yet don't actually intend to support any legislation or policy or anything that attempt to stop these, because the bottom line is they choose their guns over people's lives.

Don't forgret the praying @t-c They always pray for the people they say they feel terrible for. Of course they aren't going to support any legislation that will bring about change. They don't care and they don't want changes made.

I'm sorry for being such a smart a&& @t-c. I'm just pissed that nothing ever changes and innocent people's lives don't matter.

 

[OreoRosies86]

You are wasting your time @arkieb1. I asked her for suggestions all afternoon. She feels people should be allowed their assault type rifles that can shoot 600 people in 9 minutes. Expect to hear about 2nd amendment rights. I'm just trying to save you from a lot of aggravation.

See @Elliot86 I'm learning from your advice LOL

You're just going to be told several more times how unfortunate it is that you're angry/upset.

 

[lyra]

I have liked a lot of the suggestions here. However, I don't think it's fair to criticize Redwood. She only offered a different viewpoint, but she's not the spokesperson for the opposition. It helps to try see both sides, even if we disagree.

 

[OreoRosies86]

I have liked a lot of the suggestions here. However, I don't think it's fair to criticize Redwood. She only offered a different viewpoint, but she's not the spokesperson for the opposition. It helps to try see both sides, even if we disagree.

When I look at the mass shootings in the US over let's just say the past 5 years, the body counts and the victims themselves? It makes the fact that we are still sitting here talking about this and trying to see both sides seem even more absurd. Massive quantities of weapons, crap healthcare, stigmas about mental health? Those are all contributing factors in the rising death toll. And by the way, if a person frequently tells other people to toughen up/stop crying/mocks safe spaces etc. that is also contributing to the overall stigma that emotions=weakness. Let's call a spade a spade here.

 

[lyra]

I'm just saying she volunteered information that was personal and controversial perhaps. Redwood is not the problem. Talk to your government officials and make changes. I'm just an outsider, and none of this makes sense to me, nor do I see a simple answer. But in this thread, I see many things that COULD be tried.

 

[OreoRosies86]

No one is targeting anyone. The general overall attitude of mental health stigmas and gun ownership seem to be closely intertwined. Talking to reps has not accomplished anything. Most of us here have been through that avenue several times over. Sandy Hook happened the first Christmas break my kid ever had at school, the first time I ever entered a government building in Virginia was a week later. That was 5 years ago. We let entities like the NRA lobby themselves into Untouchable status, we keep buying guns, we keep the mental health stigmas alive by "snowflaking" people into early graves. For what?

 

[lyra]

I guess it's just too great of a fundamental difference for me to wrap my head around. In Canada, we can generally make ourselves be heard by the govt, and that can make change occur. We don't necessarily vote a party in, so much as vote by platform. And when the govt isn't doing what we want, we vote them out. We don't have all the rights and freedoms as the US constitutionally speaking. It's a huge difference. If this happened in Canada, we wouldn't be hearing details of the case nearly as much. Judges can and do put in bans on publication of details. So different. We still have guns, mass murders, suicides, etc. But not on a huge scale, I think in part because we as a nation are not fearful of our govt, nor do we feel the necessity to arm ourselves. I don't think anything will ever change in the US. I've been watching for 50+ years and nothing has changed. If mass murder of 5 year olds did nothing, then I give up trying to understand.

 

[whitewave]

I guess it's just too great of a fundamental difference for me to wrap my head around. In Canada, we can generally make ourselves be heard by the govt, and that can make change occur. We don't necessarily vote a party in, so much as vote by platform. And when the govt isn't doing what we want, we vote them out. We don't have all the rights and freedoms as the US constitutionally speaking. It's a huge difference. If this happened in Canada, we wouldn't be hearing details of the case nearly as much. Judges can and do put in bans on publication of details. So different. We still have guns, mass murders, suicides, etc. But not on a huge scale, I think in part because we as a nation are not fearful of our govt, nor do we feel the necessity to arm ourselves. I don't think anything will ever change in the US. I've been watching for 50+ years and nothing has changed. If mass murder of 5 year olds did nothing, then I give up trying to understand.

Perhaps one of the reasons you have less because your population is 35 million compared to the US population of 320 million.

 

[Maria D]

...If mass murder of 5 year olds did nothing, then I give up trying to understand.

I wouldn't say it did *nothing*. Demand for gun permits increased significantly in Newtown after that massacre. Stock prices for firearm companies rose this week. Yep, mass murder definitely has an affect on our psyche: buy more guns.

In article explaining bump stocks I read this:

"In 2010, Texas-based Slide Fire pitched the device to federal regulators as a new way to assist people with disabilities to "bump fire" an AR-15 type rifle.
"Individuals that suffer from severe arthritis, partial paralysis, or other conditions that affect their ability to traditionally operate a firearm can now utilize the SSAR-15 and the muscular strength in their entire arm to active the firing mechanism," the manufacturer said on its website."

I admit I laughed out loud. It was a cold sardonic laugh, but out loud nevertheless. Thank god for savvy inventors who take it upon themselves to make sure even infirm Americans can still shoot their guns to their heart's content. Makes me want to stand up, put my hand over my heart and belt out the National Anthem!!

 

[Matata]

Perhaps one of the reasons you have less because your population is 35 million compared to the US population of 320 million.

Even when population size is factored into the equation when comparing US gun violence to that of other countries, our stats far exceed others'.

 

[t-c]

Perhaps one of the reasons you have less because your population is 35 million compared to the US population of 320 million.

They have less per capita.

 

[t-c]

I wouldn't say it did *nothing*. Demand for gun permits increased significantly in Newtown after that massacre. Stock prices for firearm companies rose this week. Yep, mass murder definitely has an affect on our psyche: buy more guns.

In article explaining bump stocks I read this:

"In 2010, Texas-based Slide Fire pitched the device to federal regulators as a new way to assist people with disabilities to "bump fire" an AR-15 type rifle.
"Individuals that suffer from severe arthritis, partial paralysis, or other conditions that affect their ability to traditionally operate a firearm can now utilize the SSAR-15 and the muscular strength in their entire arm to active the firing mechanism," the manufacturer said on its website."

I admit I laughed out loud. It was a cold sardonic laugh, but out loud nevertheless. Thank god for savvy inventors who take it upon themselves to make sure even infirm Americans can still shoot their guns to their heart's content. Makes me want to stand up, put my hand over my heart and belt out the National Anthem!!

I guess they're not required to aim if they can spray a whole lot of bullets.

 

[whitewave]

I get that. We have got to be close to the highest per capita...

 

[lyra]

We have a different mindset. I can't explain it. It's not superior, it's just different. I would worry more about getting caught in the crossfire during a gang hit. That sort of thing happens here. We just don't take up arms as a default. I don't know. I'm just sick of seeing such unnecessary violence and death. I guess I will just avoid the news for a while. I can't effect any change whatsoever anyway.

 

[t-c]

I get that. We have got to be close to the highest per capita...

We are not the highest per capita in terms of gun-related deaths (Honduras, Venezuela, Swaziland, Guatemala, Jamaica, El Salvador, Colombia, Brazil, Panama, and Uruguay beat us), but we are the highest when we limit it to 1st world countries.

 

[Arkteia]

I think Tekate may have written that part because she is from Maine. Quoting can be confusing at times.

I converse with a few people from Maine and they all say outside of Portland and south that Maine is pretty conservative. At least that is what they say. That is true in plenty of states though.

I don't equate music genres to political parties though, there are plenty of all kinds that I like on that graph in the altnews link. If politicians do it it's because they think it will help them with particular voters. They all do that.

I don't like country music, but I have to agree. Also, the irony is, the shooter himself used to attend the same festival before (at least once).

And mainly, when I read about single moms dying in the shooting and leaving three orphaned kids, I really don't care about these poor women's political affiliations.

 

[Arkteia]

damn.. thanks red. If he did that than yeah totally illegal anywhere. Still nothing on motive. Maybe gambling debts, but even that may not be true because he apparently was a millionaire...still waiting on something solid there though.

The girlfriend reportedly was in Dubai. That may not mean anything, may be coincidence but there are Filipino Muslims. Were there any Muslim holy holidays this past month? I'm not saying she's one, just trying to connect some dots.

There was a Muslim holiday, but ironically, this year it coincided with Yom Kippur, and in general, this theory does not fly.

As to Dubai...my husband and younger son were in Dubai. In Israel, too. I can name some Pricescopers who wrote about Dubai. It is a popular place investing in tourism, but by far neither Mecca nor Medina.

I think a terrorist is driven by either religion or philosophy or ideology. A 64-year old white gambler without any known religious or other affiliation, basically living in casinos, with a warehouse of guns and ammo in his houses does not look like one. Just another homebread whacky mass murderer.

 

[Arkteia]

That Sunday, I was ready to go to bed when someone on the I-net suddenly asked how people from Las Vegas were doing. So I switched on live streaming on FB as the epizode was unraveling; the police closed half of the Strip and they were not even yet sure that there was one shooter. But soon they said the shooter was out; and we were waiting for the LV Chief of the Police press conference. Several late FB groups were running and they were discussing who it might have been. ISIS claimed responsibility so some started blaming "Arab f....rs"; some remembered white supremacist meeting and wondered about them, too.

Honestly, deep inside I already knew it would be our typical mass shooter. I thought he would be younger, though.

So the first shock was when Lombardo appeared, visibly shaken, and said that "200 people injured, 20+ dead" (initially reported toll was "2 dead, 50 wounded").

The police initially did not release Paddock's name; they mentioned the license plates for two of his cars, and the name of Mary Lou Daley. But of course, people on the site rapidly figured out the address and the name, Steve Paddock. Either his FB was down or he had none, but I did not find the photo.

At such times, you want to know what the president is thinking. So I went to Trump Nation and, to my horror, saw the names of the perpetrators listed as "Mary Lou Daley and G..ry Daley". (G. Daley was Marylou's ex-husband who since remarried. He was in no way involved). The police had already corrected this mistake on live streaming, and I went to several FB groups and mentioned it had been a mistake (it is very serious, btw). People later told me the wrong name stayed on Trump Nation till the morning, but by that time, everyone already knew the shooter's real name.

It seems that LV, amidst all this chaos, managed to organize things well. People were rapidly mobilized to donate blood. Some helped with transportation. Many did a great job. By the morning, the toll was 50+ dead, 500+ wounded... RIP.

I was raised without guns. I am a good shooter, naturally far-sighted, but with two kids, I estimate the risk of an accident to be much higher than potential need for protection. I don't know what Americans need to do to deal with the problem. I can not speak for the people who found a gun helpful. But surely there is a difference between a gun and 49 guns + explosives + some electronic devices, all that the psycho has been harboring in his homes and the hotel suite? I do not think total gun ban would be easy, but should we, at least, somehow limit the amount of guns per capita? Increase the cost of the gun license, raise costs of the guns and forbid gun transfer? We pay taxes for homes, perhaps make owners pay taxes for guns? Treat them as cigarettes? ("We know prohibition does not work, but this thing is darn dangerous, for you and for the environment").

I can not adopt a dog without a fenced backyard, yet no one actually checks on how people keep their guns? Do they actually have safes at home? No home inspections for gun owners?

In my state, there were several school shootings with tragic results. I know that even a safe can be opened, one kid here recently found the combination to dad's safe, another one simply took the safe apart (he was not looking for a gun, though). But too often, "responsible" gun owners are totally irresponsible.

And overall, sorry, gun culture prevails here. It is a culture in which two of our president's sons are trophy hunters and happily pose in Africa, with their guns and the skins, and no one cares.

 

[redwood66]

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/mass-shootings-are-a-bad-way-to-understand-gun-violence/

Suicide accounts for 33% of gun deaths. We need laws to protect suicides, victims of mass murder, victims of gangs. But no one law will save everyone is what the woman in your quoted article is saying. So I say let's start with banning rapid firing guns and the ability to make these guns out of semi automatics. It's a start. Yes it only takes one bullet to kill yourself and if we take it all the way down to really help the suicides then we need to ban all guns, but then again, a person bent on killing themselves will kill themselves, to say it sort of meanly, but truthfully, they are only hurting themselves. Let's start somewhere.

@Tekate both Arcadian and I have already said that bump stocks should be banned in this thread. The shooter had 12 of them and he should not have had any.

And to the comment by Hillary Clinton about silencers that was repeated here - Had the shooter had a suppressor on his weapons the devastation would likely have been less. A supressor (which does not make the noise inaudible) traps the gases inside. At the rapid rate he was firing the rifle would likely have malfunctioned before he finished a single magazine not to mention likely burning up the suppressor from the heat the rapid shooting caused. Our military teams like SEALS and Delta do not fire their suppressed weapons continuously because they know this fact. Short 3-4 round deadly aimed bursts are what they use and at relatively close range. People who know nothing about weapons like Clinton should not muck up the issue with incorrect info that people repeat.

That said I don't think access to silencers should be made easier. It is fine the way it is with the registration process and tax.

 

[Arkteia]

There is one aspect of this shooting that I find odd-this shooter does not seem to have had a background of hate or a known mental illness that brought him to this point. He seems to have loved his family and lived a relatively normal life.

Not that simple. He differs in being older than most mass murderers, 64, but otherwise, race, gender were the same as with most mass murderers.

He was estranged from two of his three brothers, as to the third, they were close but not close, as they mostly texted, the last time during the Hurricane. Divorced twice, no kids. The closest person to him seemed to be Mary Lou, but she, too, was not a lifelong companion and per reports of the people who saw them at Starbucks, he was verbally abusive to her, stating that he paid for everything. He did not make friends with the neighbors. He was an obsessive gambler, but this is not a conventional lifestyle.

Neither of this could explain why he "flipped", but I think there may be no explanation. By asking, "what made him do it?", we admit our inability to explain what makes people cross the line, and in a planned fashion, take other people's lives. Because mass murderers, probably, don't ask this question.

I think the FBI profilers owe to explain something to us. I have noticed another trend, there is a horrifying episode, for a while, we all talk about it and then, there is total silence. As if the media is afraid that someone might try to copycat, but silence does not prevent anything.

A mistake, perhaps was made after the Columbine. If the committee working there were not afraid to make its results public, for fear of certain psychiatric stigma, maybe we would have a different situation. Keeping these murderers mysterious, actually, works the opposite way.

One thing I am almost positive of, these shooters have Napoleonic complex, covering deep insecurity. Perhaps they feel that if they don't go with a bang, no one would hardly notice their death. Just think of how the psychopath was aiming at defenceless people from floor 32. From above. He hated people, despised them, but hated himself, too.

I am positive that how and what media would say about the murderers' deaths matters to them. No one notices them in life, so fear, shock, awe with which our mass media speaks about them ("the biggest mass murder") is what they probably aim at. They are on TV, too. The presidents mention them.

What if instead we stepped across our cultural norms, respect of the dead, and threw their real shameful cr*p out for everyone to see? What if we did not call this guy "mass murderer" but something like "old geezer"? (Horrible, I know). What if we just ridiculed them?

This time, at least, someone posted the photo of him dead. Not a flattering one. I wish someone would post even a worse one. He does not deserve privacy. He deserves public humiliation, posthumously. And no Wikipedia pages.

 

[arkieb1]

Look at t-c's chart take it in fully you have gun related deaths up there with Columbia, Brazil, places in Africa all run by drug lords or engaged in civil wars. Now compare yourselves with the rest of the other so called Western civilised nations. If you can't see there is a problem here, then obviously you are part of the problem.

Redwood - I'm not picking on you or asking you for any type of argument - you didn't answer my question, you seem to agree with limiting some gun related items like silencers but not better regulation of rapid fire weapons? Why is there such contempt or fear that better regulations are going to somehow remove everyone's guns? I can't see it working like that US (I can't see everyone giving up all guns so why try that my argument has always been for better regulation of what you can have and who can have it) so I really can't comprehend what all the hysteria and paranoia is about.

My 77 year old mother is a crack shot with a rifle better than my husband who also grew up in a rural community (both grew up in remote rural Australia, as did I) and despite that I still don't understand the need for rapid fire weapons. I don't see them as fair for hunting, fun, perhaps, for some people that get off on that but for killing animals nope, I just don't get it.

 

[redwood66]

Look at t-c's chart take it in fully you have gun related deaths up there with Columbia, Brazil, places in Africa all run by drug lords or engaged in civil wars. Now compare yourselves with the rest of the other so called Western civilised nations. If you can't see there is a problem here, then obviously you are part of the problem.

Redwood - I'm not picking on you or asking you for any type of argument - you didn't answer my question, you seem to agree with limiting some gun related items like silencers but not better regulation of rapid fire weapons? Why is there such contempt or fear that better regulations are going to somehow remove everyone's guns? I can't see it working like that US (I can't see everyone giving up all guns so why try that my argument has always been for better regulation of what you can have and who can have it) so I really can't comprehend what all the hysteria and paranoia is about.

My 77 year old mother is a crack shot with a rifle better than my husband who also grew up in a rural community (both grew up in remote rural Australia, as did I) and despite that I still don't understand the need for rapid fire weapons. I don't see them as fair for hunting, fun, perhaps, for some people that get off on that but for killing animals nope, I just don't get it.

Hi Arkie. I don't know what you mean by rapid fire weapons. Automatic weapons are already illegal unless you have gone through the process to purchase one which is extensive and no new ones have been made since 1986 for purchase by the general public. Modifying a semi auto to fire fully automatic is already illegal. Bump stocks should be illegal and Arcadian and I already said that. If you mean all semi-automatics that is the largest type of rifles and handguns that are currently sold and that does not include the illegal ones that are on the streets. If you mean "assault" type scary black weapons that is a silly description designed to whip up anti gun people because there are plenty of rifles that are not considered an "assault" weapon but will do the same damage. My Mini 14 is one of them and was not among the prior banned weapons because it did not look scary enough I guess. The looks of a weapon do nothing to make it more deadly. People who do not know about weapons are easily led to believe many things by people with other than altruistic motives. I wish the media people tried to be more accurate in the information they give out. ksinger's Unicorn gave excellent descriptive information on weapon types.

I am against confiscation or banning of semi autos and have no suggestions other than what I have already noted. The previous semi auto ban did not do what was intended and a new one would not either. If confiscation is the only suggestion by the anti gun people then we are at an impasse and will continue to be. But as lyra said I am not the spokesperson and people should talk to their congresspeople if they want things changed.

All of what I say is meant to provide accurate information that is not laden with emotion because this issue is already emotional enough.

 

[arkieb1]

Redwood - I don't live in the US so hopefully that makes me objective enough to see you will never get rid of all guns, they are a cultural part of who America is. I'm trying to comprehend how you can go about regulating to have less guns generally and less guns able to do things like what just happened in Los Vegas -before some other nutball decides they want to do the same thing.... I grew up in a harsh rural environment so I don't have a bleeding heart when it comes to farmers and appropriate responsible people owning guns.

Why does an every day person need to own an "assault" type weapon? No personal attacks, no judgement, all I am suggesting here is doing nothing is not going to solve the issue so therefore something HAS to change.

 

[Maria D]

arkieb1, according to my dentist, assault type weapons are fun to shoot. He also believes his home is safer because of his gun collection, even though he says they are all (~100 of them as he is a collector) locked up at all times.

 

[whitewave]

There was a Muslim holiday, but ironically, this year it coincided with Yom Kippur, and in general, this theory does not fly.

As to Dubai...my husband and younger son were in Dubai. In Israel, too. I can name some Pricescopers who wrote about Dubai. It is a popular place investing in tourism, but by far neither Mecca nor Medina.

I think a terrorist is driven by either religion or philosophy or ideology. A 64-year old white gambler without any known religious or other affiliation, basically living in casinos, with a warehouse of guns and ammo in his houses does not look like one. Just another homebread whacky mass murderer.

I'm not sure anything could have prevented this guy from doing what he did.

The 538 article sticks with me. Gun violence victims top 3:

Suicide
Homicide (I believe it said gang/inner city)
Domestic homicice (man kills woman)

 

[whitewave]

arkieb1, according to my dentist, assault type weapons are fun to shoot. He also believes his home is safer because of his gun collection, even though he says they are all (~100 of them as he is a collector) locked up at all times.

We have gun safes. They are biometric and open with a fingerprint and in a second or two.

I have friends who have these safes all over their houses.

 

[soxfan]

This sums it up perfectly:

 

[House Cat]

I'm not sure anything could have prevented this guy from doing what he did.

The 538 article sticks with me. Gun violence victims top 3:

Suicide
Homicide (I believe it said gang/inner city)
Domestic homicice (man kills woman)

So, because mass shootings aren't at the top of the list, we shouldn't do everything in our power to try and prevent them?

 

[Loves Vintage]

 

[Dee*Jay]

This sums it up perfectly:

OMG sox -- that was SO FUNNY. Thank you for posting it!

There is one thing he said though that made me take pause and think for just a moment that in this current environment the right to bear arms for the purpose of forming a militia and protecting ourselves against a tyrranical government might not be so far fetched...