Just got engaged - concerns about my diamond...

[SpeedracerII]

Nenny, well this sounds like a difficult predicament. I''m only a ''Internet expert'' on diamonds which makes me potentially dangerous! Have you thought about laser treatment? I know this is a controversial subject, but from what I understand, carbon inclusions like that can be lasered and practically disappear. Perhaps a happy medium here is that the jeweler refunds some of the ''overcharge'' and agrees to send the stone to a lab and have the black inclusions zapped. This was your FI may feel like he gets a little money back, you still keep the stone he picked for you (and I''m sure he thinks he picked a good one), and you get a stone without those black inclusions. It''s not going to make the stone worth more, in fact some may argue it is worth less, but really it should be worth what the cert says it is (G I1?) but it may be the happy medium that makes all parties satisfied. Just a thought. If you need to motivate your FI a little, just remind him that the difference in the price he paid and the price he should have paid is about a 60" plasma HDTV

. But we all have to understand that a B&M jeweler has bills to pay too and they have a higher overhead than on-line dealers. We all have mouths to feed.

Best of luck.

 

[Cassian]

Date: 7/3/2007 11:42:37 PM
Author: fanboy
I know this might scratch a lot of people here the wrong way, but I''d consider leaving the situation as is and learn to love your ring.


With all the fuss over diamonds and rings that goes on here, it can be hard to remember that an engagement ring is all about an engagement to start your lives together. If your fiance has already shown that he''s hurt or offended when you mention the issue, consider the damage you may be doing to your future marriage by continuing to press it. They say you shouldn''t overspend on an engagement ring because you don''t want to carry a huge financial debt into marriage; hurt feelings are no less a burden. Do you want your husband to always remember that you didn''t accept his ring? Admittedly, men can be awfully ego-driven, and thus easily hurt. However, there will be many times when you need to bruise that ego for the sake of communication and your combined well-being: think about whether this instance is one of those times.


You say that you''re hurt by your fiance''s lack of research, but ultimately you can''t really know how much effort he expended. As your future spouse, you can only trust that he did his best in this situation. After all, he did spend a very large sum of his hard-earned money. Whatever effort he may not have spent researching this ring, he certainly spent much effort working to pay for it.


Ultimately, it''s just a bunch of compressed carbon. Only the sentiment behind it should count.

Well said. and i''m sorry too if it rubs you the wrong way, i''m just giving you my honest opinion.

I love a beautiful sparkly perfect diamond as much as the next girl on here, but when it comes down to it, an engagement ring is a symbol that came out of pure love from your man''s heart. It sounds like you are more concerned about the actual diamond and what everyone else will think, rather than the fact that the man you love just chose YOU to spend the rest of your life with. All that other stuff doesn''t matter. You are marrying the man, not the ring, and I can completely understand why his feelings are hurt.

Turn it the other way around. How would you feel if you were planning a monumentally special occasion for him and he chose to complain about the material aspect of it all instead of all the meaning and time and hard work you put into it?

Maybe he has a much different idea than you do of what it means to find a special ring. Maybe that''s what he did, and how you are reacting is telling him you don''t think the ring, his effort, or he himself is good enough. You may have ruined the bliss of your post-engagement time by coming off as materialistic. It is hard to repair a bruised ego, and its hard to get that bliss back.

I agree with fanboy. learn to love your ring. It was a ring given from the purest of places in the heart, and that should mean more than a couple inclusions.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I just disagree because I think he''ll get over it. His primary aim in giving her the ring should be to make HER happy. My original diamond was SI2 but that was before grading certificates were common. The first time I saw the stone magnified (years later), I was not happy. So for my 30th anniversary, I finally got a new, beautiful diamond and my husband is very proud to have given me an excellent diamond this time. I think she should get the diamond straightened out now rather than living with disappointment for years and years. This is her best chance to return the stone without losing a lot of money. I''ll bet money that if she had gone and bought him a new stereo system or LCD Tv and it was not the brand he had been dreaming of, he''d ask her if he could exchange it. But the diamond ring is so much more important than an appliance!!! It is worn and seen all her waking hours and should be enjoyed!

 

[mela lu]

I am going to tentatively jump in here. I usually avoid threads with hightly emotional/sensitive topics because they are so touchy...and who am I? Well, in this case, I was you - a mere 11 months ago!

My FI proposed to me with an uncerted cushion in a halo setting. At first I was so happy to be engaged, however, I started researching to figure out what *exactly* it was about the stone that I didnt'' like. (enter PS) It was then that I realized that the stone was so shallow, a light leaker, and overall a ''dead'' diamond.

Well. I TRIED to ''love my diamond'' like a lot of people have suggested, but ultimately, everytime I looked at the stone, I felt not only a huge dissapointment factor. Probably more important than that, was the feeling that I had to "just take what I was given" and *hush-up* and not deserving of a) anything better or b) the right to an opinion about something very important both symbolically and financially.

What did I do...

I inched it in. I educated my FI. I showed him photos of other cushions and taught him about cut proportions, angles, %''s ect. I taught him about light leakage etc. Luckily, although annoyed, he was receptive.

Finally, he agreed that I had to wear the darn thing every day and that I should be happy. He wanted the stone to be a happy place for both of us.

Since our jeweler didn''t have an upgrade policy, we agreed to make my original cushion into a pendant, and I ordered a gorgeous RB from Whiteflash. (upgrade policy hooray!)

Currently, I''m awaiting my pendant and ering to be finished, but we are both happy in the end.

I dont know if my experience will be helpful, but know that you are not alone in these feelings...and ultimately you have to be HAPPY with the outcome. (No matter what anyone other than you and your FI say).

Good luck. Keep us posted!

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 7/4/2007 12:40:10 PM
Author: mela lu

I inched it in. I educated my FI. I showed him photos of other cushions and taught him about cut proportions, angles, %''s ect. I taught him about light leakage etc. Luckily, although annoyed, he was receptive.

Finally, he agreed that I had to wear the darn thing every day and that I should be happy. He wanted the stone to be a happy place for both of us.

Since our jeweler didn''t have an upgrade policy, we agreed to make my original cushion into a pendant, and I ordered a gorgeous RB from Whiteflash. (upgrade policy hooray!)

Currently, I''m awaiting my pendant and ering to be finished, but we are both happy in the end.

I dont know if my experience will be helpful, but know that you are not alone in these feelings...and ultimately you have to be HAPPY with the outcome. (No matter what anyone other than you and your FI say).

Mela Lu,

Sharing experience must certainly be helpful...and you needn''t share everything with PS, either.

I did find where you wrote up about your original discovery. Did you also follow up, or would you, telling about how you "negotiated" with your fiance on the new option...i.e, did he pay for, did you both, did you pay for.

Curious only....

 

[erica k]

i''m with you, mela lu, i try to keep away from these threads, and yet i can''t quite stop myself. maybe because it hits so close to home.

the way that you and your partner talk about and negotiate this ering is inextricably tied to your relationship dynamics. a diamond, a chunk of carbon, a bauble, whatever you may call it, is an extravagant thing that no one ''needs''. many of my friends refuse to have diamonds, most will end up with a plain gold band that costs no more than $250. you don''t even ''need'' a wedding band, but it''s a nice thing to have, especially in that it is a tangible marker of the moment when you were married.

i personally don''t put too much faith in things. i like diamonds as jewelry, as a personal adornment. the fact that my husband bought me my ring is wonderful (i love gifts). when i bought him his wedding band, i put a lot of thought and energy into it. but i do that for everything i give him. yet we''re not very sentimental people. i have very strong opinions about jewelry, clothing, books, etc. my husband knows this, and he knows that even though i always appreciate his efforts, he has accepted the fact that i will ''meh'' something if i''m not super excited. he''s a much nicer person than me and generally loves everything i do for him. i''m still working on being a nicer, less bluntly honest person.

it doesn''t seem healthy for so much ''stuff'' to be riding on this one little ring. i think it''s more important that this problem is discussed in a manner in keeping with how you will tackle all of life''s future issues and difficulties. if you accept the ring as is, please don''t hold a grudge. if you''re the type to hold grudges (i know i am, alas!), then talk it out as mature, considerate, loving adults. holding grudges, bruised egos, etc, all these things can be avoided or ''fixed'' through honest/kind communication.

so, no one here knows your partner or you, only YOU know what the relationship is like, what works, what doesn''t. if you didn''t, why marry him, right? this ering shouldn''t be about you worrying what other people think. so work out a compromise. do not settle if you feel like you''re settling. but ''settle'' if you are able to ''come around'' to understanding his point of view. because the flip side, the side that you''d probably prefer, is for him to come around to your ideas about the ring. but it isn''t an either/or situation, you know, there are plenty of compromises possible, as many PSers have demonstrated.

i have a .52 ct F SI1/2 (can''t remember at the top of my head) with a black ''little critter'' that is easily visible from the open side view and visible with squinting from the top. i honestly think that half the people who see my ring think it''s really sparkly and pretty. the other half will probably think that although it''s sparkly, it''s a wee bit ''small''. and well, whatever. the point is, even if a friend (hopefully not a stranger), looks at it up close, it''s unlikely that they will notice these inclusions. the amount of time and energy we put into scrutinizing our stones is like an entire day. the most time anyone (besides your jeweler) will spend looking at your stone is like 1 minute. maybe they''ll see something, maybe they won''t. but what they definitely will see is how nice and big it is on your hand. if it''s well cut and has the appropriate spread, even better!

one last question: IF your husband had paid less than or equal to what it was appraised for, would you keep it? is this really about the money, or is it about other people''s opinions? or is it just about your own standards for diamonds?

best of luck to you! this shouldn''t be something that ''ruins'' your engagement, wedding, or marriage. it all depends on how you go about things.

 

[woobug02]

I am feeling your pain....The first diamond by hubby bought me was a sparkler too but the flaws were very noticable... He got taken... He too was very upset that I wanted to change.. I didn''t and I can tell you it drove me nuts for years.... I was always make excuses when people looked at.... like, its dirty, I need to clean it...etc... My recommendation is that you try hard to get your money back and get something else... He can get a much nicer diamond for the amount he paid ...just me two cents

 

[risingsun]

It''s such a rush of feelings to be thrilled with your engagement and less than thrilled with your engagement ring. This also happened to me. My DH and I were both not so recently divorced when we decided to marry. We didn''t have a very large budget for my ring. After living with my new e-ring for several days, I noticed some carbon spots. I gently brought this up to my then fiance. We discussed it and decided to return it and look for another ring together. Life''s too short to be unhappy over something that can be remedied with open and honest communication. This year, we upgraded my wedding set and my DH is happy he could do this for me. He relied upon my PS knowlege, but was involved in the process. That was his choice. Good grief! If someone told me, 10 years ago, that I should have just "learned to love" my [first ring], I would have been speechless!!

 

[iheartscience]

This is a tough situation. I''m sorry you have to deal with it.

I think you should definitely try to exchange the diamond with the jeweler at the very least. I''m assuming that straight up returning the ring, if you even can, would probably be more upsetting to your boyfriend. I would try to take over the relationship with the jeweler as others have suggested, especially since he''s a family friend and your boyfriend might feel weird about wanting to return or exchange the diamond.

I know myself, and a diamond with visible inclusions is not something I would be able to get over or learn to love, especially if I knew my boyfriend overpaid and under-researched. (Which is exactly what would have happened if I didn''t pick out my own ring!)

It sounds like you''re being extremely sensitive to his feelings and I think if you keep gently pressing the issue he''ll come around. (It seems like that''s exactly what you''re doing, so keep it up!)

I hope you end up with a new and improved diamond this weekend!

 

[rainydaze]

gary h (cut nut) just posted this thread showing a diamond before with a black carbon spot and after they drilled and treated it. someone mentioned this in your thread, thought you might be interested.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/laser-drilled-diamond-before-after.64935/

 

[neenydp]

Thank you all for your replies - it has REALLY helped me think things through and has given me comfort knowing that I''m not alone in my feelings about this diamond. Below are some pictures from the independent appraiser...

I understand the perspectives from which some posters are coming from - in terms of this is a gift from my fiancee''s heart and, for him, he worked hard to pick it out. But, I know he bought it with the intent to make me happy and I just feel that had he known about the black inclusions, or had they been pointed out to him during the process of choosing a diamond, he wouldn''t have knowingly picked out this particular one. Also, he spent a lot of money on it, and for him to not have gotten what he thought he was getting (F, SI2, ideal cut), I feel like it was just plain wrong to have paid what he did for an outright visibly included stone.

As others have suggested, I will probably take over the relationship with the jeweler since I''m the one armed with knowledge gained from these boards. However, I''m nervous about how to deal with him.

We''re driving 3 hours Saturday specifically to see what we can do about this situation. I know my fiancee will probably be withdrawn and uncomfortable. But if we exchange the diamond for another, how will I know what parameters to stay within? Getting a similar stone (in size, color, polish/symmetry) as stated on the EGL cert to the one I currently have, but GIA certified, will be more costly than what he originally paid? So, should I stick w/ an EGL cert, but make sure it''s specs are better than this stone''s to account for the cert being "off?" Or, downgrade in size (although everyone''s already seen it) to get a better quality diamond that''s GIA certified?

Ideally, I''d like to stay the same size and color, and it could even be SI2 - just as long as it''s still sparkly and has no naked eye-visible inclusions. How should I approach the jeweler? I obviously don''t want to be confrontational, but I wonder if he''ll tell me that my fiancee paid for what the diamond is worth, according to the EGL cert. If I get this type of resistance from him, should I bust out with what the independent appraiser said? Does the opinion of an independent appraiser reign supreme w/ these jewelers? Or will they say it''s simply another subjective opinion? I want to get a similar diamond, just with better clarity. In this case, do you think we could achieve this without being charged more, or better yet, get some money back? I''m not sure what to do. I want to go there fully knowledgeable so that I don''t get "had" while trying to rectify this situation...

 

[chrono]

Before driving 3 hours to see the jeweller, give him your list of specifications so that he can line up several stones for you to choose from (to maximise your time there).

1. You might want to up your clarity to a SI1
2. State your preference for an AGS and GIA certs but am open to EGL USA only (no EGL Israel or EGL Europe)
3. State your specs for table size, depth, crown and pavilion angles to get the best CUT which will determine the sparkle of the stone. I''d rather have a smaller well cut stone then a larger average looking diamond.

 

[Regular Guy]

Neeny,

I too have learned and gained some appreciation for factors it only makes sense to be accountable for, since you've been thoughtful enough to share your concerns with this board.

Despite cringing at your having to describe next steps, to include words like:

Date: 7/5/2007 1:14:02 PM
Author: neenydp
.... I will probably take over the relationship with the jeweler since I'm the one armed with knowledge gained from these boards....and...

I know my fiancee will probably be withdrawn and uncomfortable.

Since I think I can share helpful advice to your targeted concern, which is...

how will I know what parameters to stay within?

I would say that a beautiful gift of this board is the HCA tool. I hope you've had reference to it already. Read, if not, the tutorial overall, so you have a perspective to embed this tool in...share the tool with your jeweler...it's free (so far!), and consider telling him to populate it with whatever option he might turn up. If it doesn't turn up 0 - 2 (if EGL, he'll need to enter percents), move on to the next one, until it does.

You'll separately need to modify or not as necessary vis-a-vis concerns for color or clarity what you want. Relatedly, since inclusions have been a matter of concern, consider sharing this thread (in the FAQs section here) with your vendor, too, and consider developing your dialog around this...towards getting agreement on what you are a) looking for and b) can be provided.

I wish you all the best,

 

[surfgirl]

Well mark this day down in PS history because I agree with fanboy! (I know FB, can you believe it? Neither can I...

).

Seriously though, I think fanboy has given you a good insight into how your man will feel/react, and as such, you can now tread more carefully and with greater care. The engagement ring IS about starting new life together, he's right. And much of the giving/receiving of the ring is about emotion, not how "good" the stone is.

Having said that, I too do not think you should keep this stone if it isn't something you love. And judging by that enlarged photo, it is indeed heavily included and nowhere near a VS1. So that in itself is reason enough to return it - is is not what the seller said it was, plain and simple. The seller blatantly lied to you as to what he was selling you. Referring to an EGL cert and saying, "well, the cert says it IS a VS1" is BS, in my opinion. I think Chrono has given you solid and sound advice as to how to proceed. You must walk into this meeting with exactly the parameters that you want to look at. Is there any chance at all of getting a refund and starting over elsewhere? If not, know exactly what you are looking for. I know some have said EGL US is okay, but if it were me, given that this seller isn't being completely honest with what he's selling you, I'd stick to only GIA/AGS stones, only as a way of insuring you'd be getting at least closer to what the cert says. Again, I say this only because your seller seems to just be riding on whatever the cert says and a qualified, honest seller would be able to see that your stone isn't a VS1 and wouldn't sell it as such. And yes, use your appraiser's report!

My only other comment would be, are you sure you want your man around for this discussion? If he's going to be upset, could you go alone or with a friend, father, brother? Just a thought...

Good luck.

ETA: Ira's given you great advice too. If you dont have an IS, maybe you should get one, as well as a good 10x loupe of your own, so you can go armed with all the tools you need. And dont feel obligated to take the first stone they offer you. Sleep on it. Get all the information and post it here so people can help you with additional questions if need be. Take you time!

 

[Ellen]

You've gotten some great advice, so I will only add this. Stand your ground! You KNOW what you know, you are educated in this now. Don't let him tell you otherwise. I hate to say it, because not all fall under this umbrella, but speaking from experience, jewelers will, and do lie, blatantly. And they will try and intimidate you. Don't buy it, should you feel something is untrue, and don't let them scare you.

I will tell you, as I know we as women tend to cave in situations like this (as they ARE unpleasant), to just keep reminding yourself of just how much money is at stake here, and that they are trying to take advantage of you. It makes you really mad, and THAT makes it easier to state your case and demand what you know you should get.

I wish you much luck, and please let us know how it goes!



p.s. lol @ surfgirl

 

[neenydp]

Ok, I just spoke with the jeweler. I thought it necessary because we intended to drive 3 hours on Saturday specifically to take a look at other stones. I had asked my fiancee to contact the jeweler himself to ensure he''d have some stones we could look at (since he had been doing business w/ him), but he was unwilling - figuring that we could just go there and see what our options are. I don''t want us to waste our time if he has nothing for us to compare to since we''ll be there next weekend anyway, so I called to be sure.

I was very nice and said that I could see inclusions, to which he responded it was a natural part of the diamond. He also said it was the same diamond I had tried on in the store (my fiancee took me to get a better idea of ring style I liked and I indeed tried this stone on. however, at the time, I didn''t notice the inclusions - nor did I feel the need to ask color/clarity/cut questions b/c i thought my fiancee was handling that). I asked what my options are and he said I could exchange or upgrade it any time, not just today (must be the family connection thing kicking in). When I mentioned we could be there Saturday, he looked at what he had and said he had another F, SI2, 1.5 carat diamond, but it wasn''t certified. (Is it common to offer un-certified stones?) I said I definitely wanted it certified - preferably from GIA.

He told me that if we upgraded the clarity to an SI1 or VS2, that we''d have to pay the difference in the stone (even if it''s EGL-certified, knowing it''s not going to be a true SI1 or VS2?). I said that I got it independently appraised and was told it''s truly an I1, not even an SI2, so therefore, would we still have to pay for a TRUE SI2 w/out visible inclusions? He said that the EGL is more legitimate than an appraiser because it''s an actual laboratory and asked what the appraiser could give me for the specs I wanted.
I told him the appraiser wasn''t in the business of selling diamonds and is GIA-trained. He did admit to the fact that GIA is more strict in their grading, and that retaining the same specs, but GIA-certified would be more expensive. To keep from paying more, we''d have to reduce the size of the stone.

We were planning to be visiting the area next weekend, which is fine b/c it gives him time to request some stones fitting my specs. I told him I wanted a similar spec''d stone, but without visible inclusions. I also asked him to order a GIA certified stone (even if smaller in size) with similar specifications - obviously apart from size - as the one I have to compare.

Now I know this sounds terrible, but now that everyone has already seen my ring and commented on its size - reducing the size??

Obviously, the quality of the diamond is more important - but, I''m really bummed about that. Why did he choose size at the expense of quality?

To avoid paying more, looks like my options are:

1) i can get a GIA certified stone w/ similar color, better clarity, cut - but smaller in size
2) i can get another EGL stone w/ same color, same clarity, same size, but no visible inclusions (if one exists). but i don''t know if i can rely on an eye inspection in this scenario alone. what if it''s eye clean this time around and has some other problem after i get it appraised?

it doesn''t look like he''ll give us any money back because he''s sticking to the EGL certificate''s specs for the stone - DESPITE what the independent appraiser says.

 

[cinnamon013]

Date: 7/5/2007 2:10:21 PM
Author: Ellen
You''ve gotten some great advice, so I will only add this. Stand your ground! You KNOW what you know, you are educated in this now. Don''t let him tell you otherwise. I hate to say it, because not all fall under this umbrella, but speaking from experience, jewelers will, and do lie, blatantly. And they will try and intimidate you. Don''t buy it, should you feel something is untrue, and don''t let them scare you.

I will tell you, as I know we as women tend to cave in situations like this (as they ARE unpleasant), to just keep reminding yourself of just how much money is at stake here, and that they are trying to take advantage of you. It makes you really mad, and THAT makes it easier to state your case and demand what you know you should get.

I wish you much luck, and please let us know how it goes!



p.s. lol @ surfgirl

Ditto.

Tell your hubby you are upset someone took advantage of him, and you are going to make sure that the both of you don''t get taken. Many times over the years my DH has been taken aback by my reaction to situations like this, but all in all, he respects that I will stand up for what I believe. Tread lightly with the education, but let you DF know that $11k is a lot of money, and jewelers easily swindle lots of folks out of that much and more each day. He is not alone!

 

[Modified Brilliant]

I''m jumping in a little late but for the benefit of new diamond buyers who read these posts...

Know that EGL''s subsidiary UGS. provides an estimated retail replacement value that is overstated.
A qualified appraiser or jeweler should know this and explain this fact to a consumer.

A jeweler selling an EGL report with a UGS "appraisal" should not just copy the value without doing a little
research of his own. It''s just doing the right thing for a consumer who might not understand the difference in valuations.

www.metrojewelryappraisers.com

 

[Ellen]

Date: 7/5/2007 2:13:40 PM
Author: neenydp

To avoid paying more, looks like my options are:

1) i can get a GIA certified stone w/ similar color, better clarity, cut - but smaller in size
2) i can get another EGL stone w/ same color, same clarity, same size, but no visible inclusions (if one exists). but i don''t know if i can rely on an eye inspection in this scenario alone. what if it''s eye clean this time around and has some other problem after i get it appraised?

it doesn''t look like he''ll give us any money back because he''s sticking to the EGL certificate''s specs for the stone - DESPITE what the independent appraiser says.

OK, well, you know your options now. I would go with #1.

I know you''re worried about the size difference, but I wouldn''t. Once you get over the ct. mark, it takes a lot for a big visual difference. I doubt anyone is going to notice, as I don''t think you''ll be going under a ct. I''ll post a pic to show you. This is Miss belles photo, of a 1.22 vs. a 1.79. While yes, there''s a difference, it''s not like night and day, and we''re talking a half ct. difference here.

 

[fanboy]

At this point, I'd try to get your money back. $11,000 is a lot for what you are getting, and this dealer certainly wasn't doing you any favors to begin with--some family connection, huh? Also, it doesn't bode well that, for this dealer, GIA-certified stones are the exception and not the rule.

If this dealer values his family connection to you, he'll give you your money back. After all, if he really gave you such a good deal, and the diamond is worth what he believes, he should have no problem selling it at a higher price to another customer. Maybe you can use this reasoning in your negotiations--and if you're a good actress, act hurt that a family friend would take advantage of you in such a way. If he won't give you a refund, you know he's trying to lock in his profits and your business at your expense; in that case, he's no family connection worth your deference.

As a last resort, do a charge back on your credit card. The independant appraisal should be enough to show that you didn't get what you paid for.

 

[chrono]

Date: 7/5/2007 2:13:40 PM
Author: neenydp
Ok, I just spoke with the jeweler. I thought it necessary because we intended to drive 3 hours on Saturday specifically to take a look at other stones. I had asked my fiancee to contact the jeweler himself to ensure he''d have some stones we could look at (since he had been doing business w/ him), but he was unwilling - figuring that we could just go there and see what our options are. I don''t want us to waste our time if he has nothing for us to compare to since we''ll be there next weekend anyway, so I called to be sure.
You did the right thing.[:appl:]

I was very nice and said that I could see inclusions, to which he responded it was a natural part of the diamond. Yeah, but it isn''t visible in all diamonds. He also said it was the same diamond I had tried on in the store (my fiancee took me to get a better idea of ring style I liked and I indeed tried this stone on. however, at the time, I didn''t notice the inclusions - nor did I feel the need to ask color/clarity/cut questions b/c i thought my fiancee was handling that). I asked what my options are and he said I could exchange or upgrade it any time, not just today (must be the family connection thing kicking in). When I mentioned we could be there Saturday, he looked at what he had and said he had another F, SI2, 1.5 carat diamond, but it wasn''t certified. (Is it common to offer un-certified stones? Yes, but I''d never buy such a large and expensive stone without a cert.) I said I definitely wanted it certified - preferably from GIA.

He told me that if we upgraded the clarity to an SI1 or VS2, that we''d have to pay the difference in the stone (even if it''s EGL-certified, knowing it''s not going to be a true SI1 or VS2?). I said that I got it independently appraised and was told it''s truly an I1, not even an SI2, so therefore, would we still have to pay for a TRUE SI2 w/out visible inclusions? He said that the EGL is more legitimate than an appraiser because it''s an actual laboratory and asked what the appraiser could give me for the specs I wanted.
I told him the appraiser wasn''t in the business of selling diamonds and is GIA-trained. He did admit to the fact that GIA is more strict in their grading, and that retaining the same specs, but GIA-certified would be more expensive. To keep from paying more, we''d have to reduce the size of the stone.

We were planning to be visiting the area next weekend, which is fine b/c it gives him time to request some stones fitting my specs. I told him I wanted a similar spec''d stone, but without visible inclusions. I also asked him to order a GIA certified stone (even if smaller in size) with similar specifications - obviously apart from size - as the one I have to compare.

Now I know this sounds terrible, but now that everyone has already seen my ring and commented on its size - reducing the size??

Obviously, the quality of the diamond is more important - but, I''m really bummed about that. Why did he choose size at the expense of quality? A smaller well cut stone will garner more "wows" than a poorly cut larger stone. A well cut stone will also measure larger comparatively and its sparkle will make it appear larger. What you might want to look at is a balance between well cut and size. Not super duper IDEAL, but very well cut.

To avoid paying more, looks like my options are:

1) i can get a GIA certified stone w/ similar color, better clarity, cut - but smaller in size YES
2) i can get another EGL stone w/ same color, same clarity, same size, but no visible inclusions (if one exists). but i don''t know if i can rely on an eye inspection in this scenario alone. what if it''s eye clean this time around and has some other problem after i get it appraised? Have the exchange contingent upon inspection by an independent appraiser of your choice. View the stone away from the store lighting - take it to a window to get the natural sunlight. Use a loupe and an Idealscope if you have one.

it doesn''t look like he''ll give us any money back because he''s sticking to the EGL certificate''s specs for the stone - DESPITE what the independent appraiser says.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 7/5/2007 2:29:21 PM
Author: fanboy
At this point, I''d try to get your money back. $11,000 is a lot for what you are getting, and this dealer certainly wasn''t doing you any favors to begin with--some faimly connection, huh? Also, it doesn''t bode well that, for this dealer, GIA-certified stones are the exception and not the rule.

If this dealer values his family connection to you, he''ll give you your money back. After all, if he really gave you such a good deal, and the diamond is worth what he believes, he should have no problem selling it at a higher price to another customer. Maybe you can use this reasoning in your negotiations--and if you''re a good actress, act hurt that a family friend would take advantage of you in such a way. If he won''t give you a refund, you know he''s trying to lock in his profits and your business at your expense; in that case, he''s no family connection worth your deference.

As a last resort, do a charge back on your credit card. The independant appraisal should be enough to show that you didn''t get what you paid for.

This would be my FIRST choice, but I wasn''t sure if it was an option (either because of the store and/or boyfriends feelings). Fanboy makes a great case as to why he should take it back.

If this is a possibility, go for it.

 

[chrono]

I agree with the others. A refund would be your best route because frankly, I don''t trust this family friend/connection jeweller guy. From what he has said and done, I would not want to deal with him again.

 

[marcy]

If you can''t get your money back and don''t want to pay more money I would go for a better quality diamond even if it''s smaller. Good luck.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I would definitely ask for money back if he does not produce some GIA excellent stones for you to look at. Do not accept less. The cert should say Excellent for cut. It should have at least very good for polish and symmetry. Good luck!

 

[CaptAubrey]

I can understand the jeweler''s reluctance to accept the appraisal. He likely knows nothing about the appraiser and may not be sure you have any idea what you''re talking about. The fact that the appraiser has a GG doesn''t mean anything other than he completed the GIA training, which by the doesn''t include appraisals. I have a GG, and I don''t consider myself competent to perform appraisals. Most jewelers, on the other hand, are comfortable sticking with reports from established labs. If you got appraisals from a couple of appraisers he knew and has worked with, that might be a different story.

Note also that one-grade differences are usually considered acceptable between graders, so it''s not really accurate to state that this diamond is "truly" an I1, just that you got an appraisal that called it that. SI stones can have eye-visible inclusions and still be SI. The grade is based on the appearance at 10x magnification, not with the naked eye.

 

[Heishman]

I agree with FanBoy, get your money back and look elsewere (online)
Why would you want to deal with the same jeweler that already took advantage of you? Don''t they have a return policy? YOu did state that you just got engaged. I think most jewelers will give you 30 days to return.

My husband and I made the same mistake in 1997 when we first got engaged. I wish at that time we would have known what we know now. I was only 20 and had no idea about diamonds.

 

[Regular Guy]

Neeny,

Free advice...stayed buddied up with your fiance in bringing this to a conclusion.

You''ve just had a (compliments to you) very rational conversation with your jeweler, with the solution set reviewed I had thought could come forward. Also, btw, you have, as reviewed, some swell tools to depend on here you can show your bf, and review in advance with your jeweler.

Date: 7/2/2007 11:32:57 AM
Author:neenydp

I immediately got an appointment with an independent appraiser and learned that what is being said about the GIA vs. EGL ratings is true.

Did your hon come?

With your solution set in place, and this family jeweler being your contact to be friendly with or scrape with as one likes (the solution of going to the credit card company...was it paid that way?...with a complaint that you didn''t get what was promised is one avenue perhaps), consider letting him carry it forward. Re-reading...I''m reminded you saw it with him at the outset, too, so you''re partners in crime. Keep it that way. Moreover...try letting go...and letting him bring it to a conclusion.

There''s always try #3, if #2 doesn''t work out.

 

[risingsun]

Oh dear. The jeweler sold a mediocre diamond for a whole lot of money and doesn''t want to give that money back. To me, the issue is that the diamond has visible, black inclusions and is unacceptable to you. Yes, you saw it before under jewelery store lighting and didn''t notice it. Now you have noticed, upon viewing it at home. Yes, diamonds have inclusions, but you want your stone to be eyeclean. Don''t let the jeweler try to intimidate you, as Ellen said. You want to either return or exchange this diamond for one that you will be happy with and this one isn''t it! You should not be obligated to keep it.

 

[shminbabe]

What a thread! Oh, how I appreciate your discomfort here but I think you are handling it fine, so far, with the jeweler. Making the call, telling him what you want in advance, etc. All good stuff.

Now you just need to ensure that your fiance does not feel emasculated in the process, so use lots of positive language, even when discussing what is a negative situation. Praise him and his choice however you can. When you are meeting with the jeweler try not to be confrontational so as not to embarass him. You already said he''s going to be quiet and withdrawn on the way there, and then when you walk in the store, with the jeweler defensive and the fiance embarassed...well, I know you''ve already assessed all this. So, despite what is a really disagreeable situation in which YOU are absolutely correct you must tread carefully. I''d "blame" myself, call myself picky, "admit" to being "over the top" about it and say how happy you are that your fiance is "humoring" you and "indulging" you because he is such a lovely man (which, it sounds like, he is!) and how much you appreciate both the fiance and the jeweler''s willingness to "indulge" you in finding you some stones within the parameters you want (well, INSIST upon, but do NOT act like you are INSISTING, downplay the "confrontation" as much as possible).

Ordinarily I would not give advice such as this but it''s really important that your man not be further embarassed - now it will be in front of a "trusted" family jeweler who has not done the best job possible (as your fiance now realizes). As others have said, $11k is a lot of money and it''s obvious he thought he was buying you a treasure so you must remember that as you speak you must use language that treasures him and doesn''t make him look like a fool even while you stand your ground with the jeweler. "I want the stone to be as beautiful as the one my FI gave me...I didn''t realize I would have such x-ray vision!" "Oh yes, I know that most diamonds have inclusions...I''ve learned so much about them reading on the internet. I think my stone is so pretty, so can you find another one just like it that doesn''t have the inclusions that I can see?" "Oh, I''d hate to have to get a stone that is smaller than the one my FI chose; he has such good taste." "As long as you are showing us some options, please include some stones that are GIA certified too so we can look at the difference between them. "Thank you for all the help you gave my FI when he was picking out the ring. I am so grateful that you both are indulging me like this. It means so much to me!" You have to get BOTH of these men on your side so neither is defensive/embarassed. Even if it means muting the way you''d react if this was an entirely different situation.

I do NOT envy you this problem. Personally, I''m nervous about telling my independent jeweler who has been helping me that I want to maybe buy something online instead.

jeannie