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Is this too good to be true?

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Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
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A few things here. First off you can ALWAYS find a better stone or a cheaper stone or another stone. There are tons of stones out there. What's important is right now does this stone feel good? If you keep feeling like there is something better out there for you..its hard to actually make a decision and feel good about the spending of the $$. Personally I think this deal sounds pretty good. But with an uncerted stone who knows. Definitely get the appraisal, definitely go along and see if you can get those stones unset and do crown and pav angles on ALL THREE of them. Even if the cuts are 'okay' as opposed to excellent, at least then you are buying with full knowledge and disclosure as opposed to 'well I think it's a well cut I'.

That said, I ran a pricescope search using AGS 0 as the quality (this does not guarantee a great looking stone, but it means that the parameters of the stone were such separately that AGS graded each one 0, meaning that each one fall into the best category possible for grading cut dimensions. However, when all put together, that does not mean an AGS 0 is a great cut stone. It means that each separate dimension is within the AGS 0 range.) which is a good place to start when looking for well or medium cut quality. You can't go TOO wrong with an AGS 0.

You said you found alot of stones in 1.4-1.5 range, but those were probably just stones, not well-cut or with an H&A or AGS0 differentiator.

1.32 I SI1 AGS 0 goes for $5400. 1.33 G VS2 Hearts and Arrows goes for $7000. 1.29 H SI2 Hearts and Arrows goes for $6000.

Now for the side stones.
.33c G SI1 AGS 0 stones go for around $600. G VS2 more around $700.

Platinum custom made setting such as what you describe can be anywhere from $500-1200 without stones, depending on what sort of deal you are getting on the package. Our ring with .70c of baby melee .03c stones around the band, custom made in platinum from a wax mold was $2k. So that kind of tells you how much work can go into a custom setting.

Vatche settings are around $1000 I think for a 3 stone. They are very nice! There are some pics in the Eye Candy section I think of some pretty 3 stone rings.

Anyway add all of that up, using the 1.31 I SI1 AGS 0 center stone and the two .33c G SI1 AGS 0 side stones and you have $6600 just for the stones. Estimate around $1000 for a setting and its $7600 to build a similar ring online (not knowing too much about the specs of the stones but knowing they could be well cut).

So if you use those #'s, the $7000 she is quoting you sounds like a good deal and right on the money. If you have to pay a state tax, be sure to factor that in as it may close the gap between your savings.

It sounds as though you feel more comfortable buying offline, if that is the case and this woman is willing to go the extra mile, which it sounds like she is, then good luck! Go with her to get the appraisal, have the stones unset, and then make your decision. Once you have all the info, you should feel more comfortable (or not if the stones are badly cut), and your pricing sounds very good.

Hope some of this made sense. Good luck and let us know what happens!!

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Giangi

Ideal_Rock
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Hi Nate!

The ring you posted seems a very good deal. As Mara said (and I want to stress that GREAT minds think alike
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), it looks like you feel more comfortable buying locally, and I think you've found a great vendor. She sounds very helpful. If the diamonds are graded correctly and the cut is nice, why don't you give it a chance??
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Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
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On 5/25/2003 7:37:14 AM Giangi wrote:
As Mara said (and I want to stress that GREAT minds think alike )

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Ha Ha Giangi I wholeheartedly agree!
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Nate

Shiny_Rock
Joined
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Alright, I'll follow through on this one. When she calls me Tuesday I'll tell her I want the appraisal done loose so I can get crown and pavillion angles and I'll offer to pay for the unsetting labor if I don't purchase the diamonds. I'm going to find an appraiser in the Seattle area that can get me a Sarin report so that if their appraiser says he can't get the angles I need I'll have a backup plan.
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The price seems pretty right on if the diamonds are AGS 0 cuts... if they aren't then it isn't such a good deal.
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One thing about the place I'm dealing with -- they are a wholesaler and there is no return policy. All sales are final.

I started another thread about the custom platinum 3 stone setting if you'd like to help me pick one!
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homer_j

Shiny_Rock
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RED FLAG------NO RETURN POLICY!!!
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Why are you willing to pay to have the diamond unset if you don't buy it? Who is paying for the appraisal, you or her? And what are the credentials of the appraiser she selected? Only a GIA graduate gemologist or are they an accredited gemological appraiser or master gemological appraiser? It sounds like you aren't comfortable buying on-line and want to work locally, but this sounds like a lot of hoops to jump through and nothing to fall back on. Will she let an appraiser of your choice assess the diamond prior to a sale or at least put in writing that the sale is contingent upon an independent appraisal of the numbers they tell you. If it were me, not having a return policy would not make me feel comfortable enough to proceed. Also, I don't think you should have to pay to have the diamond unset.

I just went back and read your post again about these diamonds. Since you don't like the setting the diamond was in anyway and since she claims to be a wholesaler why not just start from scratch? If you feel comfortable dealing with her, tell her what you are looking for and see what she can get for you loose. Compare them loose and pick the one that looks best to you. If she is a wholesaler, ask her to only show you certified stones by GIA and AGS, that will dismiss some of the mystery. Then get an independent appraisal to verify the diamonds with the certs. I'd still try to make the final sale contingent upon your appraisal of the diamonds. If they appraise ok, then sale is final and you are happy. Then concentrate on building the setting you want. It sounds like you want something very specific and maybe the best way to get that is to have it custom made. By the way, this process really isn't much different then if you did it on-line. There are ways to get to see the diamond first before picking the ones you want and every single vendor that comes highly recommended here has a good return policy. I think if you are willing to consider advice from on-line sources, you should also consider working with an on-line vendor. Think of it more as a way to be able to work with some of the best vendors without having to travel to them.

Just my thoughts.
 

pqcollectibles

Ideal_Rock
Joined
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NO RETURN is a RED FLAG.

Why not find a dealer that will work with you on return/exchange and life time upgrade.

White Flash, Nice Ice, and SuperbCert all offer lifetime upgrades. White Flash offers the 100% REFUND on EVERY diamond they sell. Dirt Cheap Diamonds offers 5 years buy back. Check out the brass tacks before you make a purchase decision. GOG has been mentioned several times in the forum for bending over backwards to work with people. Maybe if you talk with any of them in advance, the return period could be extended to give you plenty of time for independent appraisal.

There was a thread recently where Nice Ice got a diamond off the list for someone and wouldn't sell it. The diamond didn't stand up to their standards. Any of the Biggies are gonna screen the diamonds in advance and tell you if it's a good deal or not. If you don't like it once you see it/them, it only costs about $15 to ship it/them back for a refund. It would take a lot of returns to add up to the sales tax you are looking at spending locally.

With the diamonds from the vendors here, you aren't having to get Sarins done. They've already been done. AGS is printed on the Cert. GIA runs Sarin on all diamonds they grade, it just isn't written on the Cert. The vendor calls the broker who calls GIA to get the info.

Step back and think for a second before you get into a no refund or upgrade position. Been there done that and won't go there again.

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aljdewey

Ideal_Rock
Joined
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9,170
Nate: I'd really, REALLY pass on this one.

1. ANYONE who sells directly to the public is NOT a wholesaler. Period.
Ask anyone here, they'll all tell you the same thing. A true wholesaler
would tell you he cannot sell to you directly, he only sells to
retailers.

2. NO RETURN POLICY ... there is positively no reason for anyone to risk
a substantial amount of hard-earned $$ to anyone with a no-return
policy. Truly NO reason....there are far too many vendors available
here and in the B&M world who have a reasonable return policy.

Agree with all comments previously. There are ALWAYS other stones, stones where you won't have to pay for the unsetting, etc.

Do yourself a favor and pass on this one.
 

Nate

Shiny_Rock
Joined
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What you guys are saying makes sense. I've contacted WhiteFlash yesterday through their website, told them what I'm interested in. Hopefully I'll hear from them soon!
 

Newbie333

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 25, 2003
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Can anyone explain what the : "AGS0 HCA 1.9EX" means in the post: 1.21c I SI1 Hearts and Arrows AGS0 HCA 1.9EX

Thanks!
 

Newbie333

Rough_Rock
Joined
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48
What is " DFI " ????
 

Nate

Shiny_Rock
Joined
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"AGS0" means that it is cut to excellent proportions. AGS is one of the better labs that grades diamonds. They grade the cut, color, and clarity on a scale on 0-10 (best-worse). Usually when someone says AGS0 they are talking about the cut but its entirely possible for a stone to score a 0 in each of the 3 categories. A stone like this is called an "AGS triple zero". Read more about it here and here.

"HCA 1.9EX" is referring to the Holloway Cut Adviser score. You check check it out here.

"DFI" stands for Dark Field Illumination. More info here.

Heck you might as well just check out all of GoodOldGold.com's website.
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Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Hey Nate! I see alot has happened in one day.

You have managed to find two firecrackers of stones on GOG's site. I compared the two pages, but did not look at the Sarin results, don't have time right now.

They are really beautiful, both of them. Here are my comments. Obviously I like bigger because I'm a full-blooded American girl (though I may look like a mix between Hispanic and Persian!), and my stone looks like a 1.35, and compared to 1.25's..I can see a different and so can my fiance. For a few bucks more..I like the bigger stone.

The bigger stone has an amazing FireScope image..wow. Make sure it's eye clean. HOWEVER, the bigger stone scores slightly less on Scintillation and the slightly smaller stone just has a Bscope report and animation that blew me away when I saw it. I can see a difference in the two stones on the Bscope. I don't know what that translates to in real life, but the smaller stone has amazing fire and all VH's almost off the charts.

So now I'm confused! If both are eye-clean, both look extremely well cut so I don't thik you can go wrong with either one. Well-cut J's like this will face up whiter than they really are, it will probably look like a typical I or even a mall-cut H..who really knows. Anyway..they both look amazing, where is the Firescope image for the smaller stone?

It may come down to splitting hairs. Ask Jonathan which he likes more and why. Maybe that will help, he sees them with his own two eyes while none of us can.

But all that said..you have really come a long way from this initial post on this thread!! Considering a well cut H&A is a great choice and you can get good size and other C's as desirable as well.

Let us know what you choose. Congrats on a good eye. I bet both of these will knock your socks off.
 

fire&ice

Ideal_Rock
Joined
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On 5/26/2003 6:15:28 PM Mara wrote:

Obviously I like bigger because I'm a full-blooded American girl (though I may look like a mix between Hispanic and Persian!), and my stone looks like a 1.35, and compared to 1.25's..I can see a different and so can my fiance. For a few bucks more..I like the bigger stone.

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And all this time I thought you were a Powder Puff girl (that is your avatar?)

Who is our resident blonde?
 

Nate

Shiny_Rock
Joined
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@ fire&ice

Well I may have come a long way Mara, but so has my budget!
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She's worth it though.
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It seems like such a close call huh... the Sarin results are nearly identical. One has a thinner girdle. I emailed Jonathan about the Fire/LightScope for the smaller stone. Wonder if he'd send them both to me for evaluation?
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He sure would be the best, huh?
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Nate

Shiny_Rock
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HELP!!! I'm having trouble deciding which diamond!
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fire&ice

Ideal_Rock
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It's hard to tell over the internet. My gut is w/ Mara - bigger. Is there any way to view both? Also, I would get the dealer's opinion.

Both seem like nice stones. Good luck
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
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Nate go with your gut. Is there one aspect of the stones that really draws your attention? Did you ask Jonathan what his thoughts were? That may help. Also definitely get the Ideal/Firescope image of the smaller stone. If there is some leakage on that stone as compared with the bigger stone, the bigger stone is the winner hands down. If that comes down to the decision making point, it's a fine point to make.
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Did you do a pros/cons or +/- on each stone? Or do a comparison against each other (e.g. bscope report on stone A has VH3/VH2/VH and stone B has VH3/VH3+/VH2 or something like that)

For me I would probably choose the bigger stone, because as I noted, I saw a difference between the two sizes you are considering (we considered them too), and we both liked the bigger stone for almost the same money, more bang for the buck. But if perfection is your goal, then scrutinize those numbers some more.

However, don't drive yourself nutso..you're at the final stages and both stones look AMAZING. I seriously doubt that you will be able to visually tell a difference between the two, or if you do it may be a slight bit of extra *fire* inside the smaller stone. But nothing that jumps out at you like the difference between a well cut and non-well cut stone.

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Oh F&I...the Powerpuff girl (Buttercup) is my alter ego!! Yanno like Wonder Woman. I have a much younger sister (could be my daughter) who used to watch those and I always felt like I could relate to Buttercup, she was slightly edgey with a sarcastic feel to her.
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Nate

Shiny_Rock
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211
Funny I started out talking about give me big BIG BIG! Now I'm agonizing a decision between cut and size!
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69gm

Shiny_Rock
Joined
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Messages
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nate,

i would definitely ask jonathan what he thinks. he will give you a fair and honest answer. if i had to guess, i would say that going with either one won't be a bad choice. you just have to take the plunge and be happy with the stone you decide. agonizing over which diamond to get can be mind-numbing...i know, i've been there.

fyi, i was placed in a similar situation between bigger vs. better cut. i went with the better cut. they were really close, but in the end the better cut had a little more going for it.

good luck!
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
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I think it's important to point out again that IMO the decision between these two stones is not about one cut being 'worse'...but rather choosing between two excellently cut stones. Either one you choose is a winner, but if one has a tiny bit more light leakage, maybe you choose the other. Either way, these are both knockouts from the numbers. You are not comparing between a maul-cut 'ideal' stone and a H&A in this case.

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Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
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Messages
6,340
Greetings friends,

Nate I've sent you back a response in email (which I hope helps) and just caught up reading on this thread too.

If it helps I've taken both of the stones in question and have generated "virtual models" of each diamond based on an actual scan of the stone. If you download the free Gem Advisor software here ... http://www.cutstudy.com/octonus/english/gemreader/index.htm and open up both stones side by side this lets you do a virtual comparison. This will show you subtle differences between the 2 and you can load each stone into a light condition shown within the software (the default light condition I loaded was "jewelry store lighting") but you have different options within the Gem Advisor software (like disco lighting, office lighting, etc.). After you've got both stones displayed on your screen hit the green play button. I'd be interested to hear the opinions of those reading as to what they think of this too.

Kind regards,
Rhino

PS This first file is the 1.25ct the next will be the 1.33ct.
 

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Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
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6,340
Here's the 1.33ct. If anyone's interested we just added a brand spanking new chapter on our website under "CUT" which features a "Virtual Gallery" of all kinds of various shapes that we've scanned including different rounds, different cut qualities, etc. It's really neat. I'd like input to know how ya'll like it if ya get a chance to check it out. It's the 3 button down in the chapter on cut.

Peace,
Rhino
 

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Adrienne

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Feb 15, 2003
Messages
120
Rhino -

Why does the 1.33 have vivid inner arrows compared to the 1.25?

(now I've compared those two with mine... mine looks like the 1.25, and is missing the distinctness of the inner arrows)

Is this something that is obvious when looking at the diamond? How accurate is the GemAdvisor picture?

-Adrienne
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Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
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Here are side by side comparisons of the cut quality as computed by Gem Advisor using Rhino's files.

Interestingly enough, the 1.33c seems to score higher on most all pieces, but only by a smidge or two. Except for leakage on the 1.33 which shows a distinct advantage over the 1.25c. I wonder what the 1.25c Firescope/Idealscope image would show? The 1.33 looked very tight with virtually no leakage, and the GA file comfirms that it's got excellent light return.

The side by side comparison definitely reinforces the fact that these two stones should be knockouts, esp when you disco out the files and play them. (Whats up with the weird screenshots of nothing during the plays? Never saw that before)

So now you have the slight difference in the Bscope reports on the stones with the 1.25 looking a little better, but on the GA files, the 1.33 seems to score slightly higher on the cut with light return confirmed by both the Fire/Idealscope image and the GA scores. Which to believe?

During the playing of the files and a comparison side by side, I honestly can't even tell a difference!!! They both look really hot. So I guess maybe in real life could you even tell these two apart? From the sims, I doubt it.

Good luck. Close your eyes and point at one. That should do it!
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comparison GA.jpg
 

Nate

Shiny_Rock
Joined
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211
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Thanks Jonathan, Mara, PQ, and everyone who contributed! Looks like I'm going for the 1.33ct!! Such a close call, bigger size wins!

One thing though Jonathan, looks like you email never arrived? Wierd!

Can't wait!
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Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
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YAY! We (I) love bigger size stones!
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I think you made a good choice. For a few hundred more, you will be able to visually see a difference, the stone will look larger.

My stone is a 1.23c that has the diameter of a 1.35c due to it's cut...so for all intents and purposes it looks like a 1.35c stone (except for the depth which no one sees but me!). We compared this stone against an excellently cut 1.24c stone that looked like a 1.24c stone should....diameter wise. We saw a distinct difference in size..and both my fiance and myself were drawn to the larger looking stone.

People sometimes think it's a 1.5c -- so it's almost like we got the 1.5c marker but didn't pay the $$. When people who think it's a 1.5c ask and I tell them it's smaller (I say it's a 1.35c because I don't want random people to be misled into thinking if they buy a 1.23c stone it will look like this one....most won't unless they go for large spread).....they are surprised.

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Congrats. Post pictures when you get them. Maybe Rhino will take some photos for you of the stone for you to post.
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Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
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Hey guys!

Yes. The 1.33ct is an H&A cut with shorter lower girdles (there are 16 of them on the pavilion) which in the "jewelry store" light condition shows a little bit of a bolder arrows pattern. One of the direct results of cutting shorter lower girdles is a thicker arrow. On diamonds like the 1.33ct there is an empahsis placed on *fire* within the stone. On diamonds like the 1.25ct there is a bit more scintillation but quite frankly both are incredible and I did purchase both for stock because of their amazing beauty. Just as you see little difference in the 2 side by side virtually, so too in real life it is really tough to distinguish the difference. Both jam.
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Adrienne in soft light you'll the optical symmetry just as easily in your's too. Don't fret.
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Mara... interesting observation there. Keep in mind that the GemAdvisor does not yet take into account fire and scintillation but it is darn good in it's grading of brilliance I must say. Also in response to Nathan's email to me (which unfortunately got lost in cyberspace somewhere) I retook the LightScope shot on the 1.25ct J SI1 so it's up there for review.

The screenshots that show when you load the file is a "jewelry store" light condition. Within the DiamCalc software I'm able to send any image as a default including ...

a. jewlery store lighting
b. disco lighting
c. dialite
d. office light
e. various white hemisphere light
f. firescope
g. gilbertsonscope (2)
h. diascope (like a blue H&A scope instead of red)
i. H&A top and bottom (red)
j. light leakage special and a few others.

I think the jewelry store lighting is neat so I load that image up although I have the option of any.

Nate I'll recheck my email to see if it didn't go out on this end once I get up to the store tomorrow and I'll resend if necessary.

Kind regards,
Rhino
 

69gm

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Apr 28, 2003
Messages
287
hi mara,

you sure you rock doesn't look bigger because you have such feminine dainty hands?
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your rock sure is a knockout though!
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hey nate,

congrats on taking the plunge! i'm sure that you won't be disappointed. like mara said, it wasn't a matter of one being a junk stone and the other one good. they were both good. you just had to take the plunge. one interesting note: many people can tell the difference visually between even slightly bigger stones, but not so much in color, or clarity when you're talking minute differences. i could even tell the difference between a 1.01 ct and 1.05 ct.

so your decision on going for the bigger stone was a good one. it's a difference that people will notice more, IMHO.
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also like mara said, please post pix when possible. we all love eye-candy.
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plus it's always a good idea to agree with mara.
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take care!
 

Mexi

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 3, 2003
Messages
119
What a coincidence - I was looking at the same stones for myself.
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Nice choice.
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Can't wait to get your impression when you see it in person. I would love to see pics when you get it to compare it to the web pics.
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