I'm a widow

[AprilBaby]

Love to you my friend! You did the right thing!

 

[luv2sparkle]

I'm glad you went Pinto. I can't imagine how hard it must have been. Somewhere down the road, when life isn't quite so hard, I suspect you will be glad you did. Parents can be so very insensitive at times, but clearly your dad thinks very highly of you. He just has a very misguided way of showing it. (This is me, giving him the benefit of the doubt). Wishing you much happier days ahead, filled with much joy. You deserve it. Life has been hard for far too long. Hugs.

 

[lyra]

I'm glad you went too, PB. That was a good decision. You can allow yourself to be free of all these buttheads now. I'm including your parents. I just can't relate whatsoever to the way everyone around you has treated you! I wish I could be your crazy aunt or something. I'd tell them all off in fine style. I'd whisk you away to some great new place to live maybe. Take care.

 

[yennyfire]

PB:

Soon--when the world stops dragging your heart around--you'll take it by its tail. And take a BIG bite out of it with your good teeth. Cuz you are Smart. Beautiful. Funny. Sincere. Goof friend. Best wife. Dutiful daughter. And rocker of the best god dam jewels on PS.

kind regards--Sharon

Sharon, thanks for so eloquently expressing this so beautifully!! 200% SPOT ON!! You've been in my thoughts today....sending gentle hugs and prayers for strength.

 

[Hayley87]

I'm sending you so many hugs, Pinto. I'm glad you went, and I hope--someday--you feel glad that you decided to attend. I think your toothpick doll is a sweet addition, and it sounds exactly like what the charming subject of that sweet list would have included

I'm sorry your dad chose to behave the way he did. Others may be right in their benefit-of-the-doubt interpretation of his comments, but that doesn't make his words any less emotionally stupid for the context.

Personally (and I'm pretty sure I speak for every person on this thread), I'm beyond impressed that you've landed a new job right now. The word that keeps coming to mind when I think of you is "gumption," which, for all its old-timey sound, is one of the best compliments a person can hear, I think. Good on you, Pinto, for how you've handled everything.

When the priest was alone I asked him if it made a difference if his death was by accident or by choice. He said yes. I then asked if the ceremony would have been different, and he said no. He asked me why? I said bc the toxicology report hadn't come back yet.

I second what others have said, that ultimately, the matter isn't important because your husband is at rest. That said, the cradle Catholic in me can't help but disapprove of the priest's answer to you (what is it with people in your life not understanding context??), not only because it was hurtful (even if unintentionally), but because it's a misrepresentation of what the catechism teaches about death--no matter how it comes about. I don't think you were looking for the Catholic response to this (I believe I read that your out-laws are Catholic, but I'm not sure you are), but if you want them, I'm happy to give you the direct quotes from the catechism that show his comments were misguided at best...and actually just incorrect

 

[lovedogs]

Pinto: I'm happy you went, but incredibly sorry at the insensitivity displayed towards you. We all love you so much, and support you 100%.

 

[PintoBean]

I'm sending you so many hugs, Pinto. I'm glad you went, and I hope--someday--you feel glad that you decided to attend. I think your toothpick doll is a sweet addition, and it sounds exactly like what the charming subject of that sweet list would have included

I'm sorry your dad chose to behave the way he did. Others may be right in their benefit-of-the-doubt interpretation of his comments, but that doesn't make his words any less emotionally stupid for the context.

Personally (and I'm pretty sure I speak for every person on this thread), I'm beyond impressed that you've landed a new job right now. The word that keeps coming to mind when I think of you is "gumption," which, for all its old-timey sound, is one of the best compliments a person can hear, I think. Good on you, Pinto, for how you've handled everything.

I second what others have said, that ultimately, the matter isn't important because your husband is at rest. That said, the cradle Catholic in me can't help but disapprove of the priest's answer to you (what is it with people in your life not understanding context??), not only because it was hurtful (even if unintentionally), but because it's a misrepresentation of what the catechism teaches about death--no matter how it comes about. I don't think you were looking for the Catholic response to this (I believe I read that your out-laws are Catholic, but I'm not sure you are), but if you want them, I'm happy to give you the direct quotes from the catechism that show his comments were misguided at best...and actually just incorrect

I think no one understands the context of what I say Bc no one is truly listening to me. I'm glad to let others take the spotlight while I take a supporting role but I think it makes people think that it's ok to marginalize or minimize me and not pay full attention or what not to me.

Please let me know what the correct catechisms are. And thank you for listening to me.

 

[azstonie]

No one *here* is truly listening to you?

 

[PintoBean]

No one *here* is truly listening to you?

No I meant in response to Hayley saying what is it with people in my life not understanding context.

 

[PintoBean]

No one *here* is truly listening to you?

Here people actually listen. Amazingly they can't see me and my lips moving but they hear and understand.

How the people in front of my face can fake it and half listen is beyond me...

 

[Hayley87]

I think no one understands the context of what I say Bc no one is truly listening to me. I'm glad to let others take the spotlight while I take a supporting role but I think it makes people think that it's ok to marginalize or minimize me and not pay full attention or what not to me.

Please let me know what the correct catechisms are. And thank you for listening to me.

Pinto, I'm so sorry you don't feel heard. I think one of the loneliest, worst feelings in the world is being physically around other people, but being looked past or through or over. I hope now, you'll be able to choose your company at leisure and surround yourself with people who treat you as you ought to be. (((Hug)))

Ok, I have various sections of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) here that I'll quote; I'll also say that I was raised Catholic and have even earned my certificate as a catechist (i.e., an approved instructor of the faith in a diocesan setting) for my diocese. I'm not a member of the clergy, but I'm pretty well-versed for a lay person. THAT SAID, the information I'll provide below does NOT mean that I think your husband committed suicide! Even if the toxicology reports come back positive, I would urge you NOT to consider that indicative of suicide.

But, for the sake of assuaging any doubts about the worst-case scenario (and to prove that the priest's words were ill-chosen in their ambiguity), here we go. The four-digit numbers are sections of the CCC, which can be found online. (I apologize in advance that this will be long; we've had a couple thousand years to really articulate our beliefs. )

"2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.

2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.

Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives." (Emphasis is my own.)

So basically, suicide is a sin, and a grave one, no matter the circumstances. BUT the Church draws a distinction between venial sins (which are grave but don't put the soul in imminent danger, essentially) and mortal sins (which carry with them the threat of separating a soul from God, thereby putting one in danger of Hell).

A mortal sin must meet ALL THREE of the following conditions to be a mortal sin:

"1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. ... The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. ...

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ's kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God."

So a person must be (1) totally aware that what they're about to do is a mortal sin, (2) 100% choose to commit suicide of their own volition, without any duress or external factors affecting that choice, and (3) in the complete knowledge that what they do is against God's law. Under these criteria, someone who's never heard of Christianity who commits suicide has not committed a mortal sin (don't meet 1 and 3). Someone who's taunted or tortured into suicide, such as that boy in the texting suicide case recently, hasn't met criterion 2. Someone who's been captured and knows they're going to be tortured and therefore commits suicide hasn't met criterion 2. They would be committing a sin, yes, but it would not be a fully mortal sin.

Before the dawn of modern psychology, suicide was generally considered a one-way ticket to Hell; however, once psychologists began to understand how mental illness and addictions affect one's self-control and ability to give informed consent to an act, the Church reconsidered its position. Someone who is mentally ill or addicted is not of sound mind to give their full consent.

The inability to give true consent as a result of mental illness or addiction is one of the first grounds for an annulment in the Church, by the way (Canon Law 1095).

So basically, someone would have to be sober, aware, and kill themselves entirely out of spite for another person in order to meet all 3 criteria. (And even that would make one wonder about their mental health, which gets us back to criterion 2.)

The second part I bolded is equally important. We can identify the act as a sin, but we're incapable of knowing what's in a person's heart--and that's the single most important factor, at least when it comes to a soul's judgment. Even IF a person were to meet all 3 criteria for committing a mortal sin, a mortal sin can still be repented of before the moment of death.

Which brings me to Purgatory, which most people consider to be a macabre teaching of the Church; in fact, I consider it incredibly reassuring. The Church teaches that the final destination of all souls is either Heaven or Hell. To warrant Hell, a person must choose through their acts to commit mortal sin (again, by meeting all 3 criteria above), not repent (even at the last moment), and reject God's forgiveness. I've seen enough of human nature to believe that the vast majority of people can't be so self-destructive.

For most people, some amount of time in Purgatory awaits before entrance into Heaven:

"1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."

So depending on the load of venial (and, possibly, almost-mortal) sins one carries at the moment of death, one is given a commensurate amount of time in Purgatory. We have no means of telling how long any one person may spend there, but that's why literally every single Catholic Mass prays for the dead in their intentions: the living pray for the quick purification of those who've gone before, so they're brought into Heaven more quickly. And that's where the Catholic phrase of "giving it up for the souls in Purgatory" comes from: the idea that all humans (alive and dead) are able to help one another via prayer and sacrifice, so the suffering of an alive person--if prayed about--could offset some of the time in Purgatory for another soul there.

Personally, I find Purgatory a very reassuring belief because it operates on the assumption that humans tend to mess up by nature, God has a plan in place to help us with that, and as long as one tries to be a good person, there's hope. Based only on the pages of this thread I've read, addiction issues aside, your husband was a good man. I would pray for him just like I'd pray for anyone else I knew who'd died, but I wouldn't worry so much about the means of his death. (((Hug hug hug)))

This got very long, and I'm sorry about that. I was trying to cover the logic of everything. But in short: there are many mitigating factors that can keep a suicide from being a mortal sin; if in fact it were a mortal sin, it could still be repented of; Purgatory offers even very sinful people the opportunity to enter Heaven.

 

[TooPatient]

Pinto, I am sorry you are feeling not heard by those in your life. I feel the ladies (and gentlemen) here are a special group that is far above average in so many ways. I find that people in my "real" life seldom listen even half as well as those here!

Your dad.... Wow. Even if it was reasonable to voice that opinion, his timing made his comments 1,000,000,000 times worse. As someone who sold life insurance, I will say that I learned a lot and don't regret it for a minute! (At 19 years old, it was probably not wise to go alone into super isolated home late at night... Hence I quit.) I think you will be amazing at it and wish you lived in my state so I could buy from you!

 

[TooPatient]

On your concern about the toxicology report, I just want to send you big hugs. As the daughter of alcoholics and the niece of alcoholics and the cousin of alcoholics, I know too well the pain of wondering.

My uncle got drunk & drugged and tried to kill himself by crashing a car. There was NO doubt to anyone who saw the scene that he had done that. If your husband had tried to kill himself, you would know.

That list you posted is so very sweet. I can see how much he loved you. There is NO way he would have tried to leave you this way.

I know you will still wonder and hurt not knowing for absolutely certain. Please know that is normal. Just try to remember that someone who has lost three uncles to drinking (one a near certain suicide plus another who attempted and failed) says that this does not look in ANY way like an intentional thing.

 

[valeria101]

I think no one understands the context of what I say Bc no one is truly listening to me.... And thank you for listening to me.

You are subtle, for sure ! It wasn't perhaps until page ten (at least) of the thread that there was any hint of the grace-less practices of your kin, or this oddious matter of drinking ... All I could read was GRIEF, it was all too obvious that you could hardly stand the news - for many weeks ... And you were typing all that on this random forum ! WHY !?

Then, the more you said, the more reason there was for me to want to stay & listen. I can testify of Family. Then - your show of strength is roughly 97.013% convincing: your next thread might fill up to 100.

How the people in front of my face can fake it and half listen is beyond me...

Good for you. It is obvious you are out there at the sincere end ! Not easy .(

I have a grin to return for such kindness - it nearly always convinces fakers that their efforts are not needed [YES!], few stop the act by offering help [ ... listening is a profession - several, in fact ,-); help is help]; once or twice, they got back for real blood [only family did - those with duty weighing on them from elsewhere].

Not sure how to do that grin in writing - almost any act comes accross as too strong [on Twitter, my Block list must be MILLIONS ... inasmuch, that robot has learned who might like me: it is a heck of a match-maker KWIM]

All I know ...

 

[freezing_in_MO]

I hope today is a better day. Listening to you is easy because you are so articulate. Anyone who doesn't understand you is most likely willfully obtuse.

As I read some of the things people have been saying to you, I shake my head in wonder and pray that I have never been so insensitive and awful. As a bereaved person, you should have been shown more "tenderness."

Here's an interesting passage of an article in today's Guardian. Hilary Mantel certainly has a way with words.

"Grief is exhausting, as we all know. The bereaved are muddled and tense, they need allowances made. But who knows you are mourning, if there is nothing but a long face to set you apart? No one wants to go back to the elaborate conventions of the Victorians, but they had the merit of tagging the bereaved, marking them out for tenderness."

Here people actually listen. Amazingly they can't see me and my lips moving but they hear and understand.

How the people in front of my face can fake it and half listen is beyond me...

 

[december-fire]

Pinto,

Perhaps we hear you more clearly than some other people because they, like you, are directly impacted by the loss of your DH.

Tragedies such as the loss of a spouse or child can cause the brain and emotions to go into a tailspin.
If some people are exhibiting behaviour which seems out-of-character for them, maybe its best to try and let it go. Their behaviour may be due to the heartbreaking loss of your DH - and concern for how you will move forward (thinking about your father's comment when I wrote that).
If the behaviour is consistent with the person's pass actions and words, well, they're being themselves.

Try to buffer yourself emotionally from the craziness that can be triggered by loss.
Don't let anyone cause you to question your amazing qualities and abilities.

I pray that you can shut out the nonsense about whether or not this was an accident.
Some people make unfounded comments just to be dramatic. Just because your DH struggled with alcohol does not mean that he was suicidal! That's so inappropriate that such a possibility could be raised.

Sending comforting thoughts and prayers for peace.

 

[PintoBean]

Yesterday I told my friend I was feeling thin skinned so she kindly changed her plans to hang out with me. She starts a new job on Monday so we went out shoe shopping. She showed me pics of a man she fancies and figured he might be at a local bar watching the boxing match, so I said WE MUST GO to your local bar! Needless to say we didn't encounter him but it was a fun night out. I fell asleep at 5 AM and woke up at 145pm. All I drank last night was water when I was out so I was nice and hydrated (weight loss goals means lots of water!)

Now that I'm awake I feel blue again. That 3 month gap before interring the ashes kinda reset the grieving again.

Tomorrow is business again - I have to pull my shit together because I have that exam I keep putting off studying for, I have my psychologist appointment, and hopefully I can make my last trip to the DMV and get the registration cancelled on Mike's car without the plates and with the proper paperwork. I have to put my garage back together and clean house in prep for cleaning lady on Tuesday.

Today, I feel weepy and wish I had someone to snuggle with.

 

[marcy]

Hi Pinto Bean.
My thoughts have been with you.
I am glad you decided to go to the internment. It's understandable the internment reset your grieving process again. In my experience everything that has any finality to the process and settling the estate will trigger that response. Hopefully each time it is a bit easier for you.
The list you found that Micheal wrote about you is a wonderful discovery and shows how much he loved you.
I am glad you had a lovely evening with your friend at her local bar.
Good luck tomorrow at the DMV.
Big hugs!
Marcy

 

[valeria101]

Today, I feel weepy and wish I had someone to snuggle with.

One thing perfect strangers are not good for, IHMO.

Good luck tomorrow !

 

[azstonie]

No I meant in response to Hayley saying what is it with people in my life not understanding context.

Roger that, PB.

I thought PS-ers were "getting" you and I thought you thought that too but then I was not sure after reading that.

One thing I value about PS Hangout is that there are people with wide life experience here and chances are, ya aren't alone in something you go through or try to get through.

 

[missy]

PintoBean you are doing A-OK. Just keep putting one foot in front of the other and moving forward and taking it one day at a time. You rock. You experienced devastating losses and you are surviving and BOO to anyone else who doesn't get it. Your unsupportive parents and outlaws can just jump in the river. I know your parents love you and want the best for you but their judgment is lacking. Luckily you have a good head on your shoulders and you are doing what you need to do to keep your head above water right now. The rest will all get sorted out but for now don't look too far ahead and keep moving and getting the help you need. Using PS as a sounding board and way to get out and work through all your feelings is helpful and I am glad you can do that. And looking for support from us, your friends and loved ones and professionals. That is all good. I hope your therapist appointment goes well this morning and I am continuing to send you buckets of good thoughts and positive vibes and ((((hugs)))).

 

[december-fire]

What @missy said! Yes.
You're doing great, Pinto. One foot in front of the next.
I hope you can feel all the love, strength and concern being sent your way by all of us.

Hugs

 

[lyra]

I'm going to go with a cliche, because sometimes cliches get me through life too. Even if you're taking 2 steps forward and one step back, you're still moving forward. Or 3 steps forward 2 steps back. It's not all forward motion, but it eventually gets you to the place you need to be. Take care.

 

[cmd2014]

Pinto,

The toxicology report will only tell you if Michael had been drinking. It won't tell you anything about his state of mind. Even if he was drinking (which might not have been abnormal for him, if he was to the point of needing something to stave off withdrawal in order to function in the mornings) that does not mean that he intended to cause the crash. Given this, it might be helpful for you to think of this as simply a tragic accident, because unless he was specifically saying that this was what he was thinking of doing, you will never know for sure.

 

[House Cat]

Dearest PB,

I just wanted to drop in and give you a big hug. You're in my thoughts.

 

[CJ2008]

Hi Pinto. Just like HC, I wanted to drop in say hi and let you know I was thinking of you. Hugs.

 

[yennyfire]

Add me to the Crew if those just wanting to stop by and check in you....how'd the exam go? Did you post about it and I missed it?

Hope you're feeling a bit more even keeled now that the internment is complete. Sending hugs, as always!

 

[PintoBean]

Hee hee - I"m not at the exam yet. I still haven't studied. I'm slow, I know... Now I hear I have to have a green light exam before the actual exam for licensing that has to be monitored .
It's been hard. Like a few steps back, but we're not at 0, we're still ahead.I had a nightmare a few days ago during a nap. In my dream I started telling about my husband's accident and woke myself up mid recitation - stating aloud "and the car rolled into tree after tree after tree." I have a new online widower friend through @LAJennifer and I asked him if this is normal. He said it's common to have nightmares the first year.

I googled something bad yesterday and I told @jordyonbass about it because you're only as sick as your secrets (and he's probably the only other person online with me after 3AM).

Randomly, another PSer msgd me to call her today. She expressed her concern for me, and told me she wanted me to call her any time, and cited something almost identical to what I said to Jordy as an example of when to call. Sooo... that was kinda surreal - b/c I put it out there, in an inadvertent convoluted round about way of asking for help, it randomly arrived.

I asked my HS friend Nicole to be with me on September 2 and she said no problem.

 

[freezing_in_MO]

You must be a very good friend to have so many friends who are eager to oblige your requests. It helps that some of them are psychic

 

[valeria101]

You must be a very good friend to have so many friends who are eager to oblige your requests.

This !