Ideal-Scope and ASET Scope deserve a far larger audience

[WinkHPD]

Well said. Thank you, @Karl_K

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Thanks for your view Winks and I totally agree that the tools help to discern a poor cut vs a well cut diamond but when we get to well cut diamonds, is it really better value or are we just buying a mind clean paper premium?

In the pict below, there are only 2 ASETs, one of a Whiteflash ACA and the other being a premium select. Yes, granted that I did pick the better premium select out, could we discern which is which? Even if we did, does that translate to marked brightness, scintillating differences in real life? If so, then why are we paying the premium for an ACA?

I prefer people to use these tools as rejection tools. Narrow down to the best of the best. Especially with fancy shapes.
Either of those 2 stones should be pretty good

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

There’s an additional advantage of these things that isn’t mentioned above. When you go to a store to look at diamonds and you happen to have an Idealscope or ASET in your purse, it tells you something about the diamonds, but it also tells them something about YOU. It changes the whole direction of the sales presentation, and largely for the better.

Great - yes - salespeople, shiver in fear!
And you take your own lighting environment with you Neil

 

[EncikG]

@Wink I believe the community here holds you in high regard, myself included. And to the other trades for sharing information. There was no sacasm nor intent in my reply.

You have however made the assumption that the images were perhaps screen grabbed from the comforts of my couch. What I was trying to imply was with the ASET eliminating poor choices, and when we get to very well cut diamonds... where is the line drawn when you start to see diminishing value on return (visually). I have seen some of these stones (from a vendors superideal vs ideal range) and cannot tell the difference. Yes, some I could, but it was not a stark difference
Trades have chimed in previously that it can take up to 2 weeks of seeing the stone in different lighting to discern the subtle differences. And granted you see them everyday would have a more attuned visual palette to pick out these differences. But what of the lay person? Would the ASET help to eliminate bad choices and then we let our eyes do the picking?

Hypothetically, if everyone started shopping with an ASET, wouldn’t it start to shift the market towards better cut stones?
Whether one chooses the credentials of a superideal, is another story.

 

[EncikG]

I will play this game. The one on left is ACA and the one on right is Premium Select

Lol you are right!! Well done @flyingpig
Qs is would u pick it out in real life? Would those be stark differences?

 

[flyingpig]

Lol you are right!! Well done @flyingpig
Qs is would u pick it out in real life? Would those be stark differences?

There have been a few people telling me that I (or normal people ) cannot tell the difference between these two. But I can, mainly because of the difference in girdle treatment in these two stones.

Now, there is difference. But that does not mean one is more beautiful than the other. They are just different.

With my money, I would pick the Premium Select, because of the smaller table, and I guess it would be 10% cheaper.

 

[Serg]

ASET, IS are effective rejective tools for RBC. They are not so good for Fancy cuts.
Many fancy cuts with high optical performance is necessary to restart diamond industry.
RBC become commodity and can not be considered as luxury product more.
"rarity" can not drive sales for new generations .

Diamond retail have not skills to sell Fancy cuts. There are necessary new tools, sales technics to help sell high performance fancy cuts. We need create Fun for consumers and back to emotion side of diamonds.
ASET, IS, Grading reports, 4C are to boring for luxury products .

 

[Dancing Fire]

The last time I pulled out an ASET score in the UK I was told, "sparkle is a very simple formula, D sparkles with SI2, with H you need vs1"

I took the UK advice ...

 

[WinkHPD]

@Wink I believe the community here holds you in high regard, myself included. And to the other trades for sharing information. There was no sacasm nor intent in my reply.

You have however made the assumption that the images were perhaps screen grabbed from the comforts of my couch. What I was trying to imply was with the ASET eliminating poor choices, and when we get to very well cut diamonds... where is the line drawn when you start to see diminishing value on return (visually). I have seen some of these stones (from a vendors superideal vs ideal range) and cannot tell the difference. Yes, some I could, but it was not a stark difference

Your regard for me is appreciated and returned my friend! And I felt no sarcasm whatsoever but fear I wasn’t clear. I wasn’t implying you as being some couch-assessor. I was agreeing the tools serve a purpose but stating that they have a practical ceiling. That ceiling varies. There is a crowd who believes GIA EX is the ceiling. Another crowd believes AGS 0 is the ceiling. And yet another crowd believes nice proportions and a bright ASET image is the ceiling. None of those are the ceiling for me, nor was I implying they are for you. YES I would like to see ideal-scope or ASET become standard practice. They are useful in the same manner as color masters or loupes. They give an indication of quality. I’m only stating that what the eyes see in-person always give far more decisive information, with the caveat you raise below.

Trades have chimed in previously that it can take up to 2 weeks of seeing the stone in different lighting to discern the subtle differences. And granted you see them everyday would have a more attuned visual palette to pick out these differences. But what of the lay person? Would the ASET help to eliminate bad choices and then we let our eyes do the picking?

This reminds me of seeing who can sing in tune. Some people can and others can’t. Everyone can learn, if they wish to, although it takes some people more time than others (that is me, raising my hand!). I believe our friend @Karl_K suggests a practical time-frame (maybe 2 weeks) that allows the average person to really appreciate performance nuances. But people vary. Some of my clients see micro details immediately. Others detect them when I predict what will occur in certain lighting. Yet other people do not seem to value even trying. People are different.

I would suggest asking John Pollard to comment on this, as he has been involved in more live comparisons across more stores with more laypeople and more types of diamonds than anyone else I know… But my short answer is YES. I have (and do) use the ASET as you suggest.

Hypothetically, if everyone started shopping with an ASET, wouldn’t it start to shift the market towards better cut stones?

Whether one chooses the credentials of a superideal, is another story.

Correct and correct. We are in accord, I believe. And I would like to re-state the below because it was really what I hoped to convey in my last post, but may not have been clear.

I don’t believe there is a “premium” for careful cutting. The cost basis is higher, but for a defensible reason. What I do see are discounts for deviations from optimum cutting, but those discounts are not always in the buyer’s best interest, and are often not disclosed. Caveat emptor. And yes. You are correct. If only the industry had treated Garry’s ideal-scope as we do a gemological microscope. Or a carat scale. Or a color master stone. Can you imagine? If only we had guarded what we do to the diamond as rigorously as we critique Mother Nature in terms of the invented DEF scale or FL-VVS clarity scale. If only we would have made ideal-scope or ASET a standard gemological instrument.

So I hope that is more clear. I agree with the premise of this thread. Visual palate dialogue, and personal decisions about what level of performance is desired for oneself, or the ultimate wearer, is indeed another topic.

Wink

 

[Texas Leaguer]

@Wink
... What I was trying to imply was with the ASET eliminating poor choices, and when we get to very well cut diamonds... where is the line drawn when you start to see diminishing value on return (visually). I have seen some of these stones (from a vendors superideal vs ideal range) and cannot tell the difference. Yes, some I could, but it was not a stark difference
Trades have chimed in previously that it can take up to 2 weeks of seeing the stone in different lighting to discern the subtle differences. And granted you see them everyday would have a more attuned visual palette to pick out these differences. But what of the lay person? Would the ASET help to eliminate bad choices and then we let our eyes do the picking?

Hypothetically, if everyone started shopping with an ASET, wouldn’t it start to shift the market towards better cut stones?

A qualified yes. I do think if more shoppers visited jewelry stores with tools to assess cut quality (not necessarily just ASET), the demand for well cut stones would be felt all the way back to the manufacturer. When GIA finally released their overall cut grade, shoppers started asking jewelers for the top grade. Today manufacturers are aiming for Triple Ex whenever economically feasible and the cut quality of rounds in general has improved greatly in a relatively short time. Internet shopping also had a lot to do with that, but the point is that this is a demand-driven improvement. Consumer demand starts with awareness and appreciation.

I also think this point is part of what prompted Dave to start this thread.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hi All!
For clarity can we please use David F and David A so we know which David we’re talking about
Serg makes a very important point- we are only discussing use of ASET for Round Brilliant Cut diamonds in this thread. Fancy shapes present totally different considerations and ASET is not nearly as useful for anyone who’s not an expert. Even then use of ASET on fancy shapes is clearly nothing like using it on RBCs.
The term “careful cutting” honestly does not seem sufficient. In addition to extra care, it takes a tremendous amount of skill to get to what is referred here as “Super Ideal”- or a specialty cut like Octavia. In my experience this does cost more- with good reason for those who want this added level of attention to cutting precision.
Many buyers will not feel it’s worth more for the subtle differences- or even prefer a less “Ideal” look in their diamonds. They will pay less- but they are not sacrificing anything in my opinion- because we’re talking about preference.
The market has shifted towards one type of Round Brilliant Cut- I don’t find that ASET is the reason, nor do I find that if ASET did become more prevalent would it change the direction.
Computers have taken over. There’s more consistency- but also better yield. That’s what drives diamond design- and relevant to the discussion. The reason we’ll cut 60/60s don’t exist is the extra depth of Ideal style stones. It’s not about beauty.

 

[Karl_K]

This reminds me of seeing who can sing in tune. Some people can and others can’t. Everyone can learn, if they wish to, although it takes some people more time than others (that is me, raising my hand!). I believe our friend @Karl_K suggests a practical time-frame (maybe 2 weeks) that allows the average person to really appreciate performance nuances. But people vary. Some of my clients see micro details immediately. Others detect them when I predict what will occur in certain lighting. Yet other people do not seem to value even trying. People are different.

Yes, 2 weeks or so.
There are different ways of looking at diamonds some are:
The gemological
The wow shiny!
critical evaluation

When first seeing a diamond most peoples first reaction is wow shiny and some never really move beyond it.
Others after a time they move into the critical evaluation phase where they notice the smaller details beyond wow shiny!
Then those details become part of the enjoyment or wow shiny! or they can also turn the person off the diamond.
That time varies from never to a few minutes to move from wow shiny! to evaluation.
After 2 weeks of in their own environment if it hasn't happened there is a good chance it wont.
Some people are in critical evaluation mode all the time and most often they dont care about diamonds one bit because they never get the wow shiny!

Gemologists and dealers just dont look at diamonds the way that most consumers do as far as that goes neither do most pricescopers after they have been here a while.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

I have often wondered if jewellery stores would bar David Blaine and Dynamo from their premises before they've even entered...

I was once shoplifted by a guy who I am sure had training as a magician. Complete slight of hand, misdirection, distraction, while talking cordially the whole time. An expensive diamond bracelet. After a long period of extreme distress, I can now look back on that incident with a certain amount respect for his skill.
But it is a lesson I have never forgotten and I have told the story to many a sales associate over the years!

 

[Texas Leaguer]

@Texas Leaguer if I’m not wrong, you made the comment in past post that pple who shop over the internet pick an ACA but those who walk-in might end up with a Premium or ES selection. Perhaps there are some budget constraints or perhaps they could not equate the price premium with what they saw optically.

This is true. But there are many reasons why a customer chooses one over another. Local shoppers offer a wider mix of people with different preferences it seems. Many of them are only familiar with GIA or have been advised only to buy GIA. And often they are first time diamond shoppers and have not developed a critical eye for diamonds. When all the stones they are viewing are well cut, they tend to focus on things like color, clarity preferences or getting a little bigger stone for the money.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Karl- an intersting point about two weeks....One aspect I believe is extremely important in this acclimation period is the jewelry that the diamond is set into. It would be hard for a consumer to study a loose diamond for two weeks- and even then, the setting can impact the performance and enjoyment.

I agree that many dealers are not putting themselves in the consumer viewpoint- which does indeed affect the way they look at goods. For the vast majority it's only about dollars and cents. Since most RBC cutters fit into that category, we see all these 61-62.9% depth stones. I just don't see ASET being able to change that mindset.
I don't put myself or the other dealers participating here on PS in that category.... ( not that you were either
I know I'm in the minority among this esteemed group of dealers- maybe it's the market I'm in ( NYC)

 

[AV_]

I'd raise here an overlooked tool of diamond cut appreciation - it is shown very often: a box with a soft, black lining into which two round brilliants are sunk up to the girdle. It tells what reflects light - like the reflector tools, and invites movement to appreciate play of light - unlike the reflector tools, leaving all that was the discussion of ETAS open as it is.

This is a gesture, not a tool, of course. Others of the kind relate to obstruction.

The reflector tools point to symmetry beyond anything & it is such a pleasure - obviously!

Thinking out loud

 

[oldminer]

THANK YOU ALL for the great discussion. It seemed that my particular subject in this thread was something that we have only lightly, if ever, covered in so many thousands of other discussions. A broader understanding of the value or lack of value in using these tools by a wider consumer audience was the reason for the topic. I felt it would bring forth a good give and take. It has done just that!

For any of you that felt wronged by me bringing up the topic, I felt I had waited a very long time in hopes of someone else beating me to the keyboard. We know these tools and images have made a real difference in marketing the finest cut diamonds, but my mind looks at what is currently a relatively small percentage of the market and asks the question, "Can this be a much bigger idea with far broader cuse and acceptance?" At the top end of cut, these tools give us clues to which diamond is more perfectly cut than another of nearly the same cut quality. At the mid level of cut, such as a triple "Good", can such tools and images do anyone any good in their selection process? I believe expert eyes can do the job, but we are trained in looking at diamonds. Can such tools and images assist consumers in mid level cut stones? I believe it is a valid question and few of us have any experience using these tools in this way. I'd like to understand and know more and surely many of you feel the same about knowing versus guessing.

 

[EncikG]

I don’t believe there is a “premium” for careful cutting. The cost basis is higher, but for a defensible reason. What I do see are discounts for deviations from optimum cutting, but those discounts are not always in the buyer’s best interest, and are often not disclosed.

I find our differing views on this quite interesting.

Why does someone choose a D, IF for perfection they cannot see. While others are pushing the color boundaries of H and I, not wanting to pay a premium for color they cannot perceive. The same can be said for cutting. I fully acknowledge the higher cost of precision cutting. But from a consumer point of view, when shown 2 stones of high quality (such as those of Whiteflash ACA vs ES), when one does not have the 2weeks to critique nor have the visual acuity to pick out the micro differences, the difference in price is often considered a premium. The caveat in this of course is that you need to work with a vendor or B&M store that sells high quality stones to begin with

It is not that we do not want to learn to sing in a choir. Sometimes, one only needs to sing once in their lifetime. Which brings me back to the question of using these scopes. If one does not choose to go down the path of a superideal, would the use of these tools be sufficient enough to eliminate a lot of poorly cut stones such that we dun really end up wearing a dud at a dinner party...

 

[Yang Kin]

ESPECIALLY in clear differences of fire and scintillation.

@Wink, in your opinion, what is the best way to assess fire and scintillation, apart from viewing the real stone?

 

[Yang Kin]

If you walked into a B&M store whereby either you or the jeweller had a ASET and showed you the following scope images, would you choose not to buy it just because it had a GIA cert?

IMO, I think the GIA is still being regarded as the world's top gemological lab. I would certainly buy stones like that. And by looking at the images you posted alone, I can probably guess which brick-and-mortar store those images come from.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

I find our differing views on this quite interesting.

Why does someone choose a D, IF for perfection they cannot see. While others are pushing the color boundaries of H and I, not wanting to pay a premium for color they cannot perceive. The same can be said for cutting. I fully acknowledge the higher cost of precision cutting. But from a consumer point of view, when shown 2 stones of high quality (such as those of Whiteflash ACA vs ES), when one does not have the 2weeks to critique nor have the visual acuity to pick out the micro differences, the difference in price is often considered a premium. The caveat in this of course is that you need to work with a vendor or B&M store that sells high quality stones to begin with

It is not that we do not want to learn to sing in a choir. Sometimes, one only needs to sing once in their lifetime. Which brings me back to the question of using these scopes. If one does not choose to go down the path of a superideal, would the use of these tools be sufficient enough to eliminate a lot of poorly cut stones such that we dun really end up wearing a dud at a dinner party...

@EncikG , I certainly understand your point. Diamond shoppers are always presented with tradeoffs, and people respond very differently depending on their general approach as consumers, their circumstances, and their needs and desires around a particular purchase. There is no right or wrong answer, provided they have the information to make an informed decision.

With regard to the scopes and diagnostic images, if used properly (like any tool) they definitely help to inform, and even if used as rejection tools can assist in the selection process. I agree with those who point out that ASET has more limited value in evaluating fancy cuts. While it still provides important information about the way the diamond is handling light, making practical use of that information is challenging, even for experienced professionals.

Another point that I think is relevant, and I agree with @Wink perspective about the somewhat erroneous view that a well cut diamond costs a premium. The way I look at it a gem quality diamond is a precious material that by all rights should be crafted by default with the greatest care, and with a philosophy of bringing out it's full potential. Any compromises in this area accrue as discounts to the default value. And to this point, I would say that the price differential between a superbly crafted diamond and a commercial make is very small compared to the price differential between H/I VS vs DEF/IF-VVS, and the benefits often much more noticeable.

 

[WinkHPD]

Another point that I think is relevant, and I agree with @Wink perspective about the somewhat erroneous view that a well cut diamond costs a premium. The way I look at it a gem quality diamond is a precious material that by all rights should be crafted by default with the greatest care, and with a philosophy of bringing out it's full potential. Any compromises in this area accrue as discounts to the default value. And to this point, I would say that the price differential between a superbly crafted diamond and a commercial make is very small compared to the price differential between H/I VS vs DEF/IF-VVS, and the benefits often much more noticeable.

Well said @Texas Leaguer. The subtleties of the natural “tail” can and do wag the visual-performance “dog” sometimes, in terms of price differential.

I support your price differential comments even more urgently when it comes to carat weight and downright tomfoolery by producers. As an industry we allow diamonds which rise just above a carat/price threshold to be financially rewarded for poor cutting. There is an article by John Pollard published on my site, showing in very concrete detail, with actual examples, why producers may be motivated to preserve weight at the expense of spread and beauty. There’s often more money to be made by doing that.

That article first shows images of rough crystals and their relative production plans. I will excerpt just one of the examples. There are more.

(begin excerpt)

Crystal B was forced to deep proportions

* Result from the producer is a 3.00 ct F VS1 GIA EX now-selling for $ 82,366. Notable leakage. Spread of 9.12mm

Link to GIA report: https://www.hpdiamonds.com/cms/ckfinder/userfiles/files/PDFs/force-2_0300FVS1-6191966388.pdf

Link to archived screenshot: https://www.hpdiamonds.com/cms/ckfi...tion/force-2_0300FVS1-6191966388-archived.jpg

* Using the same crystal, Crafted by Infinity would have produced a 2.80 ct F VS1. Spread of 9.12 mm. Retail near $ 56,000 **

(end excerpt)

This is a man-made situation. Rewarding producers to do “whatever it takes” to preserve weight. You can go look on RapNet, or Blue Nile for consumers, and find dozens of fast examples of diamonds with forced-weight like the one above. To an unknowing consumer these may be framed as “bargains” for the carat weight they bring when, in fact, they may also bring severe deficits in brightness and physical spread.

In that sense, again, the title and purpose of @Oldminer’s thread get my reinforcement and support.

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

I find our differing views on this quite interesting.

Why does someone choose a D, IF for perfection they cannot see. While others are pushing the color boundaries of H and I, not wanting to pay a premium for color they cannot perceive. The same can be said for cutting. I fully acknowledge the higher cost of precision cutting. But from a consumer point of view, when shown 2 stones of high quality (such as those of Whiteflash ACA vs ES), when one does not have the 2 weeks to critique nor have the visual acuity to pick out the micro differences, the difference in price is often considered a premium. The caveat in this of course is that you need to work with a vendor or B&M store that sells high quality stones to begin with

It is not that we do not want to learn to sing in a choir. Sometimes, one only needs to sing once in their lifetime. Which brings me back to the question of using these scopes. If one does not choose to go down the path of a superideal, would the use of these tools be sufficient enough to eliminate a lot of poorly cut stones such that we dun really end up wearing a dud at a dinner party...

This is a beautifully worded post @EncikG . Thank you for the continued metaphors.

I will answer your last question first. Yes. In fact Garry Holloway has selected melee this way for many, many years. To be sure of what you just said.

I respect your viewpoint as well. Imagine how boring it would be if everyone had the same mindset. True, I have chosen to advocate for what I believe in. But long as a consumer becomes educated to all of the options and is offered the chance to experience what I offer (if they wish to experience it!) I am happy. In my process I would like to believe I am providing useful information, at large. For example, many dozens of people have expressed “thanks” over time for sharing the article from which I drew that example in the last post. Those people did not all necessarily wind up purchasing from me. But during their journey they learned something valuable which they verified was useful in deciding the song they ultimately decided to sing.

Wink

 

[Rockdiamond]

Another point that I think is relevant, and I agree with @Wink perspective about the somewhat erroneous view that a well cut diamond costs a premium.

Guys- I'm confused at your position.
Take a Super Ideal, or a branded diamond like Octavia, AVC, ACA, CBI- you name it. If these diamonds are truly special- and on that point, we agree- such stones are special. Given that they are special, we will also agree that they can't be cut by any run of the mill* cutter.
Therefore, cutters who possess this additional skill charge more. This is a fact. They need to.
Besides the additional labor costs, in many cases, a lower yield is achieved. More of the rough diamond needs to be polished away to get the desired results. Again, a fact.
Both of these facts mean that specialty cuts cost more than other diamonds. I just can't get how this is disputable.
*I use the term "run of the mill"- however, the bar is not all that low. As compared to 20 years back, there are quite a few more factories producing very well cut RBC diamonds- albeit not as well cut as the branded super ideal stones. If we include Fancy shapes- the bar is even higher- because the average fancy shape of today is cut to a far better standard than one of 10 years ago.

ALso- the example Wink provided is an outlier. How a 63.6% depth stone get EX cut grade is a different discussion- but it's by no means typical.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

In light of all the complex and difficult decisions we put.consumers thru; how long I wonder does it take an average or mean consumer to buy a diamond or a diamond engagement ring?

 

[Rockdiamond]

* Result from the producer is a 3.00 ct F VS1 GIA EX now-selling for $ 82,366. Notable leakage. Spread of 9.12mm

A quick search on one of the two largest diamond selling sites shows a 3.01 F/VS1- strong blue. Spreads 9.21 *9.08 ( even though it's still a deep one at 63.6)
Priced at $50,510
It is a VG cut grade ( Wink's example made GIA EX)- but that aspect impacts the price far less than the strong blue.

 

[jp201845]

In light of all the complex and difficult decisions we put.consumers thru; how long I wonder does it take an average or mean consumer to buy a diamond or a diamond engagement ring?

Good question,

Before finding this forum I knew absolutely nothing about diamonds. To educate myself properly it took me about 4 months start to finish to make the right decision buying an engagement ring.

 

[OoohShiny]

Good question,

Before finding this forum I knew absolutely nothing about diamonds. To educate myself properly it took me about 4 months start to finish to make the right decision buying an engagement ring.

This.

It took me a long time to commit to buying a stone - and yes, I do take forever to make decisions because I want to make sure I am aware of all the facts and am not going to be hoodwinked into buying crap.

Would the average punter take that long? I doubt it - most spend an afternoon walking round a shopping area with a few jewelers in it, 'the ring' is found and purchased.

No discussion on optical performance. No discussion about the options and merits of different colours and clarities. No discussion about steep/deep combinations / spread / high vs low crown angles. No discussion about old vs modern faceting. No (or rarely) discussion on the fact that the stone and the shank can be separate purchases. No discussion on magic shop lighting vs normal lighting.

Usually it's just a discussion on 'is this in budget / does it look 'nice' / will the in-laws like it, then it gets bought and forgotten about (by the purchasing party initially and then the wearer once the 'oooh, look at that!' showing off is over and done with).

How can we overcome that? How can we make buyers care? How can we communicate all the nuances quickly and make buyers realise the importance of considering all the aspects? Are most vendors even interested in doing that if they can flog low wholesale value crap for the same retail price as more expensive, well-cut diamonds that cost more wholesale and have lower profit margins??

 

[jp201845]

because I want to make sure I am aware of all the facts and am not going to be hoodwinked into buying crap.

Next time I go into a jewelry store I will say I'm an educated consumer and don't want to be hoodwinked lol

 

[Texas Leaguer]

I think @jp201845 and @OoohShiny are not atypical of the kind of customer we cater to. It is not at all unusual for us to be in communication with them for many months before purchase. Because of our specialties, the customers that find their way to us are some of the most conscientious customers in the market in terms of doing their homework. That said, we also have click and buy customers who may be relying more on reputation of our products and company and not spending as much time worrying about ray tracing or cones of obstruction.