I hate my ring

[TravelingGal]

Date: 12/10/2009 12:31:47 AM
Author: arjunajane
Thankyou kama for providing some anectdotal evidence of the exact cultural dissonance to which I was referring.
The reasons you have given for choosing not to marry an Indian man are many of the same ones I have become familiar with, hence my assertion earlier that I was not surprised a cross cultural communication breakdown had occurred in this particular relationship.

Honestly, I''m still having a lil trouble seeing what about my post ruffled so many feathers. But I said I''d leave out, so I will.

Come on AJ. You''re no dummy. I don''t think what you said was racist, but surely you can see why it was potentially INFLAMMATORY, as seen by what you prefaced your comment with.

 

[kenny]

You don't marry an Indian.
You marry his family.
(or insert many other nationalities here).

And you are not marring that family, your family is.
I think this is one reason arranged marriages in these countries have much lower divorce rates than American marriages.

Americans cherish independence and even separateness for both the family and the individual much more than many other cultures.
Many other cultures cherish the extended family as the primary unit; individuals are subservient to the family.

Neither system is right or wrong, but blending them is a recipe for fireworks.

 

[Mrs Mitchell]

Muffin, I really hope you and your DH can work through the issues you have. I feel for you, hope you can move past this and get the ring you want as well as sorting out the issues behind it.

I''m not fond of stereo typing either. Not least because all it will provoke is a long list of contrary experiences - here''s mine:

The only Indian man I know really well is my uncle by marriage. He''s a wonderful man for whom I have nothing but love and respect. He''s from a very traditional family, he is in his 70s now and by most people''s standards, pretty old fashioned, I suppose. I''ve never seen him treat his wife or anyone else with anything except respect and kindness. I love him dearly and our two extended families may be very different but we have been privileged to share and experience each others'' cultures. My life has been richer for it.

Jen

 

[movie zombie]

one can never rely on the other to satisfy our needs. he was given the specifications and even vendors to contact for the desired ring. he sourced out the task to his mother....whether this is tradition or just him doesn''t even matter. what matters is you do not have the ring you want. go buy it. if he gets angry, its nothing compared to the obvious anger you''ve been carrying since the wedding day. if his family gets angry, its not your problem. its his. tell him it is his problem and to deal with it. if you''d gotten the right ring in the first place, you wouldn''t be so angry and you wouldn''t have gone out and bought this ring. do not be romantic and expect him to ever give you the jewelry you desire. the responsibility is yours.

mz

ps yes, i also think this is more than about the ring.

 

[ericad]

IMO this issue has to do with 2 individuals and I really hate to see ethnic stereotypes brought into it.

My dad is Indian, my mom is Czech. I was born in the US and grew up here. My dad is completely the opposite of every Indian stereotype I have ever known. He has 6 siblings and each of them is somewhere separate on the continuum of cultural traditionalism.

For example, he has a sister who has lived in the US for nearly 30 years and she is far more traditional (in the context of Indian culture) than most of the siblings still living in India. She has 2 adult children and each of them is completely different as well - one is very traditional and the other is not. Same for my cousins in India. Some of my relatives are completely misogynistic and others are the polar opposite. Some marriages have been arranged, others not. See where I''m going with this?

We are all products of our environment, culture and traditions, but we are also individuals who are not bound by cultural stereotypes and can choose what kind of people we want to be. If the OP has issues in her relationship that go deeper than the ring (or maybe it''s really just about the ring) it has to do with the individual she married and it''s utterly absurd to bring his ethnicity into the issue.

 

[risingsun]

Date: 12/9/2009 9:30:47 PM
Author: purrfectpear
It's a huge difference between people from another country who came here as children/teens, or were raised by parents who have been in America for a good length of time - and an adult who has been here less than 4 years, where their entire upbringing was in the culture of another country.

You didn't mention how long you knew your hubby before you married, but I can certainly sense your deep resentments against his traditions/cultures vs. what you are traditionally comfortable with.

The fact is you didn't marry an American man. If you love this man, then you need to accept him as he is, with his values and cultural notions. Neither of you will be very happy if you continue to wish he was like the guys you grew up with, and he continues to wish you were more like the women he grew up with.

Counseling would be great but if he won't go, then you need to accept him or move on. It's not fair to hold internal grudges and resentments over something that is inherent in who the other person is IMO.

I suspect this post is the mere tip of the iceberg and that there is a LOT more going on in this relationship that caused some hurtful things being said

It can also be said that the OP's husband has deep resentments against his wife's tradtions and culture vs. what he is traditionally comfortable with. The fact is that he didn't marry an Indian woman. If he loves her, he needs to accept her as she is, with her values and cultural notions. Neither of them will be very happy if he continues to wish she was like the girls he grew up with and you continue to wish he was more like the men you grew up with. Sorry for using your words, PP, but it clearly expressed my dissenting POV. I think that this couple has to find a way to embrace both cultures and show respect and acceptance for each others' needs. To deny your partners cultural heritage is to deny them as a person, IMO.

 

[ericad]

Edited post - removed after rereading the post I was responding to

 

[kenny]

I think it is okay to acknowledge cultural differences.
They are real and play a large role in shaping who we are.

Stereotyping would be insisting that they always apply equally to everyone in a group.
Clearly individuals within any group will vary.
That doesn't mean cultural differences are not real or significant when people from two cultures marry.

 

[ericad]

But the OP hasn''t given us any reason to think that her particular problem is directly related to cultural differences. He may just be insensitive or clueless. Choosing a ring different from what she wanted is something I imagine many men have done, regardless of culture. But because she mentioned he''s Indian and that they he/his family wanted a traditional Indian wedding many have jumped to the conclusion that he''s traditional, misogynistic, etc. and have applied this stereotype to their relationship. We simply don''t know enough about him or their relationship to go down that road.

 

[kenny]

The OP''s first post was chock full of cultural differences.

 

[ericad]

Yes, which were her observations and of course exist, but I don't recall reading anything about her specific ring problem being related to her husband being a misogynistic Indian who looks down on women, etc.

Some subsequent posts referenced this stereotype, however what the OP wrote is that her husband tends to not meet her in the middle regarding their cultural differences, that he allowed his mother to choose her ring, etc. This tells me he may have thoughtfulness issues (and mommy issues) and difficulty with compromise, but doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't respect her or her American culture. Too many assumptions about his motives are being based upon his ethnicity without any details to back it up.

 

[Dreamer_D]

The OP could have left out the cultural difference and the entire post would have made perfect sense because the *specific examples* she gave are not specific to Indian culture! The wedding examples could have been a Greek or Italian or ... any family from a culture that values communalism within the family. Men from any culture can ignore a woman's wishes. MIL's from any culture can help pick an ugly ring. Couples from any culture can miscommunicate, or not communicate. Saying, "Oh it all figures because he is Indian!" is frankly ridiculous

And it is racist... if anyone doubts that look up "Modern Racism" or "Aversive Racism" in the social psychology journals. Why is it racist to say that? Because it is looking at the myriad potential causes of the man's poor behaviour and the OP's marital problems and latching on to his race/culture as the cause. If you don't want to call such a way of thinking racist, then maybe we can just call it simplistc?

 

[february2003bride]

Date: 12/10/2009 6:13:02 PM
Author: dreamer_dachsie
The OP could have left out the cultural difference and the entire post would have made perfect sense because the *specific examples* she gave are not specific to Indian culture! The wedding examples could have been a Greek or Italian or ... any family from a culture that values communalism within the family. Men from any culture can ignore a woman''s wishes. MIL''s from any culture can help pick an ugly ring. Couples from any culture can miscommunicate, or not communicate. Saying, ''Oh it all figures because he is Indian!'' is frankly ridiculous

And it is racist... if anyone doubts that look up ''Modern Racism'' or ''Aversive Racism'' in the social psychology journals. Why is it racist to say that? Because it is looking at the myriad potential causes of the man''s poor behaviour and the OP''s marital problems and latching on to his race/culture as the cause. If you don''t want to call such a way of thinking racist, then maybe we can just call it simplistc?

HUGE DITTO.

 

[Kaleigh]

Date: 12/10/2009 6:21:58 PM
Author: february2003bride

Date: 12/10/2009 6:13:02 PM
Author: dreamer_dachsie
The OP could have left out the cultural difference and the entire post would have made perfect sense because the *specific examples* she gave are not specific to Indian culture! The wedding examples could have been a Greek or Italian or ... any family from a culture that values communalism within the family. Men from any culture can ignore a woman''s wishes. MIL''s from any culture can help pick an ugly ring. Couples from any culture can miscommunicate, or not communicate. Saying, ''Oh it all figures because he is Indian!'' is frankly ridiculous

And it is racist... if anyone doubts that look up ''Modern Racism'' or ''Aversive Racism'' in the social psychology journals. Why is it racist to say that? Because it is looking at the myriad potential causes of the man''s poor behaviour and the OP''s marital problems and latching on to his race/culture as the cause. If you don''t want to call such a way of thinking racist, then maybe we can just call it simplistc?

HUGE DITTO.

DD well said. I agree 100%.

 

[ericad]

Date: 12/10/2009 6:28:32 PM
Author: Kaleigh

Date: 12/10/2009 6:21:58 PM

Author: february2003bride

Date: 12/10/2009 6:13:02 PM

Author: dreamer_dachsie

The OP could have left out the cultural difference and the entire post would have made perfect sense because the *specific examples* she gave are not specific to Indian culture! The wedding examples could have been a Greek or Italian or ... any family from a culture that values communalism within the family. Men from any culture can ignore a woman''s wishes. MIL''s from any culture can help pick an ugly ring. Couples from any culture can miscommunicate, or not communicate. Saying, ''Oh it all figures because he is Indian!'' is frankly ridiculous

And it is racist... if anyone doubts that look up ''Modern Racism'' or ''Aversive Racism'' in the social psychology journals. Why is it racist to say that? Because it is looking at the myriad potential causes of the man''s poor behaviour and the OP''s marital problems and latching on to his race/culture as the cause. If you don''t want to call such a way of thinking racist, then maybe we can just call it simplistc?

HUGE DITTO.

DD well said. I agree 100%.

Precisely!

 

[HollyS]

Take it from the vault.

Sell it. Or trade it.

Get what you want.

And if you want a do over on him, too . . . well, um, okay.

 

[cara]

If you want to remove all of the Indian cultural details from the original post it loses both authenticity and specificity. And that scrubbing of detail would remove critical information about how the cultural difference between the OP and her husband are contributing to or even causing their problems. I’m sorry, but it certainly seems to me that cultural differences are contributing to or enabling their problems. She ended up with a ring she ‘hates’ because it meets an Indian aesthetic rather than being what she asked for, which is something more in an American aesthetic and tradition. She mentions, resentfully, wearing red at her wedding rather than white. Cultural differences again.

Her guy might merely be clueless and insensitive, but at some point failing to meet your spouse halfway on these issues which are obviously causing them problems becomes disrespectful. I'm not exactly sure where that line is, and the OP hasn't come back to fill us in on other details, but saying some of this might be due to his cultural background (relative to hers) is not ridiculous.

Not to say that guys of all backgrounds can't be clueless, insensitive jerks, but cultural differences can be more challenging to overcome and require greater than average personal flexibility and interpersonal skills. And a 'traditional' person of any culture might have a harder time of it, or might not be interested in trying, hence the difficulties.

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 12/10/2009 7:20:14 PM
Author: cara
If you want to remove all of the Indian cultural details from the original post it loses both authenticity and specificity. And that scrubbing of detail would remove critical information about how the cultural difference between the OP and her husband are contributing to or even causing their problems. I’m sorry, but it certainly seems to me that cultural differences are contributing to or enabling their problems. She ended up with a ring she ‘hates’ because it meets an Indian aesthetic rather than being what she asked for, which is something more in an American aesthetic and tradition. She mentions, resentfully, wearing red at her wedding rather than white. Cultural differences again.


Her guy might merely be clueless and insensitive, but at some point failing to meet your spouse halfway on these issues which are obviously causing them problems becomes disrespectful. I'm not exactly sure where that line is, and the OP hasn't come back to fill us in on other details, but saying some of this might be due to his cultural background (relative to hers) is not ridiculous.


Not to say that guys of all backgrounds can't be clueless, insensitive jerks, but cultural differences can be more challenging to overcome and require greater than average personal flexibility and interpersonal skills. And a 'traditional' person of any culture might have a harder time of it, or might not be interested in trying, hence the difficulties.

But that is exactly what DD is saying. It may be a cultural thing. But it could be between ANY two cultures. It's all the comments about that it's because he's *Indian* that makes him an a**. That is the problematic statement. It's not problematic to say they are having cultural differences-which is obvious. It's the generalizing statement that it's because he's Indian so it must mean he doesn't respect her. No-it's because he's an a** and they are having problems. He happens to be Indian-but being Indian doesn't automatically mean that he's a misogynistic jerk.

But insert any culture in there, "it's because he's greek", "it's because he's a smurf", and it's just as wrong to generalize about an ENTIRE CULTURE over one man's issues.

It's VERY different to say that "we are from two different cultures and believe different things. And my husband is a jerk" vs. saying "My husband is a jerk because he is from a different culture".

 

[katamari]

If I can make a recommendation, I think it would be good to start a race discussion thread in ATW. I think it is very helpful for everyone to be engaged in healthy, open dialogues about important and sensitive issues.

Muffin_top, if you are still out there, I would love for you to check back in. I am particularly interested in hearing your answer to Ara Ann''s question about whether or not you would be happy in this relationship with this ring.

 

[cara]

My mother is a teacher and has been looking out for an Afghani boy in her school as a high school exchange student. He apparently got a reputation for being ‘creepy’ and has been completely ostracized from other kids in the school based on some comments he made to girls his first weeks here. Is it wrong to say its probably because of his culture that he made these creepy, inappropriate comments? I can’t imagine what an average Afghani teenage boy would make of normal American teenage girls if plopped into an American high school from Kabul. I am inclined to blame some component of this boy’s comments on his cultural upbringing and the standards for women’s dress and women’s place in his society – and his age - rather than just saying his comments were made because he is a creepy boy.

Long example to say, I think that the cultural background is relevant but not deterministic, and I think it is fair to look to cultural background to help explain one’s behavior. To an extent.

Anyway, I think this convo has gone on well past the useful point without additional input from the OP. Hopefully she got some food for thought (and wasn’t just a provocative troll!)

ETA: sorry katamari, just saw your post. Good idea, though I think part of the issue here is that people are reading the tea leaves of clues rather than getting more concrete information on what is going on from the OP. Oh, and it seems cultural differences the issue here rather than race? Though some people might interchange the two.

 

[MakingTheGrade]

For those interested, I had started a "cross cultural marriage" thread over in Newly Weds awhile ago, but people can carry on this discussion there if they like.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/any-cross-culture-marriages-out-there.128197/page-2

 

[Italiahaircolor]

This sounds like it started before the ring and has gone far, far beyond it.

 

[katamari]

Date: 12/10/2009 9:17:15 PM
Author: cara Oh, and it seems cultural differences the issue here rather than race? Though some people might interchange the two.

Thank you, cara! A very important wording error on my part.

 

[risingsun]

Is anyone truly debating that there are cultures which treat women as having little value and their role is society is circumscribed7

Political correctness has become so accepted that we can no longer speak the truth about cultures which demean their own members, as well as others. When a women marries outside of her culture, some people make assumptions that she is marrying "into" her husband's culture. In my view, they are becoming a part of each other's culture. Did the husband's lavish wedding, from his culture, serve as a bride price? When did she give up her rights as a woman and an individual. Why are her wishes of little or no importance? Why should she have to give away her sense of self?

Of course, not every person from a specific culture behaves in the same manner; however, unequal treatment of women does exist. I don't think it is helpful to blame the woman. Since when do we take women's rights for granted.

 

[Gypsy]

But this isn''t about culture. It''s about a man and wife. Let''s re-write this:

Girl raised in the Northeast wants a small elegant wedding. Guy raised in the South has a huge family and his mother wants the biggest best wedding she can have for her son''s marriage. Bride conceeds, but is resentful. Only one thing is important to her... her ring. Girl gives guy a point by point describtion and detail of the ring she wants and offers him a list of jewelers that can help him get the ring. If she gets that ONE thing, giving up the rest of the wedding will be okay for her.

Husband outsources the "ONE THING" his wife asked of him. To his mom. Who proceeds to get the bride whatever she wants.

Two years they''ve been argueing about this. Husband says: For our anniversary I will get you the ring you want. To shut you up. THEN doesn''t do it.

Well, sorry but. The guy is a jerk. Has nothing to do with his nationality. Make him Italian and her french.


I don''t think the cultural sterotypes are adding anything to this dialog. Yes, he is from a family oriented background. DOESN''T MATTER. When your wife tells you point blank what she needs and you ignore it blithly, and then compound the problem by making ridiculous comments about wedding expenses, AND then breaking further promises related to what is an enflamed issue: you are being a jerk who is disrespecting and blatantly ignoring what his wife wants.

And the OP? Well, she''s being passive aggressive and resentful.

Look if it bothers you this much. Take a stand. If he doesn''t give you what you need, leave. And do it. Just leave. It''s kind of a sh*t or get off the pot thing as far as I''m concerned.

 

[Kaleigh]

I don't buy into putting a culture into a neat little box. I think that's very small minded and will have none of it...... If I was Indian, reading this thread would make me very upset. Like hello??? It's 2009... Haven't we evolved enough to know that's all a bunch of bunk?


I am sorry for the OP, as usual this thread has twisted and turned.....

I don't know if the OP is even following this,.....

 

[gardengloves]

Date: 12/10/2009 6:54:14 PM
Author: HollyS
Take it from the vault.


Sell it. Or trade it.


Get what you want.


And if you want a do over on him, too . . . well, um, okay.

yup, make your own path...great avatar...

 

[risingsun]

I have worked with women who have been in these types of situations [not ring related], which have most definitely been driven by cultural differences. It is real and does exist. It's not just because some guy is clueless or abusive. The history of these women's marriages are heartbreaking. Some of the women are American and some are from other countries. I live in an area with a diverse population. For the people who say that the women would just leave the situation, that trivializes the extent of the problem. It is not easy to leave, for numerous reasons. I am not speaking of any one culture in this post. I am speaking from many years of experience with counseling women and men who cannot understand or relate to each other because they come from different cultures. Consider how many cultures exist in this country, alone. Bridging the cultural gap can be a challenge for those who are prepared and willing. It may not be possible for those who have no tolerance for others outside of their cultural comfort zone.

 

[zhuzhu]

In the middle of this thread I got a bit confused. Even though all that''s discussed about cultural differences, or even generalizations, are at times valid, I am no sure how validating these issues are relevant to the original poster''s feeling of frustration?

Clearly MT feeling upset because of her husband''s "inability to listen and be considerate, and most of all that he expects me to meet him on his own side in most ways, rather than him trying to meet me half way in our cultural divide." MT sounds like she recognizes already that there are cultural differences, acknowledges that she has had to compromise because of it but her husband is not doing enough of it in return.

She did not walk into the marriage blind, therefore the problem she is expressing is that her husband is not "returning enough of the favor". To me this is a very personal communication issue in their marriage, not because culture differences were not "thought about" or if the differences are "good or bad". Just like any communication problems of any relationship, they need to learn to communicate more effectively with help or try harder among the two of them.

MT is married to a man whom she has chosen and loves. I think MT benefits from our understanding and support of her frustration, not the analytical skills to solve the question of "what ethnic group had she married would she have been more happy".

 

[sunseeker101]

I think discounting cultural relativities overly simplifies what is most likely a very complex issue of opposing individual personality/inclination and cultural ethos. Though I agree that without input from Muffin_top its inclusion reads like an attack on a certain group. Only the OP can know if her husband can''t hear her or respect her wishes due to cultural norms on that particular topic (in which case it can be saved, I would think), or if deafness and insensitivity is his basic personality (not so solvable, but maybe manageable). I''d love to see a follow up from the OP.