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How to determine if my pink diamond is from a Argyle tender?

Pilot172

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Hello,

I own a .55ct vivid pink Argyle diamond. I was told it was in the 2007 Argyle tender. How do I confirm it is a tender diamond? I tried contacting Rio Tinto but they would not help me.
 

T L

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Re: How to determine if my pink diamond is from a Argyle ten

Pilot172|1323358986|3077065 said:
Hello,

I own a .55ct vivid pink Argyle diamond. I was told it was in the 2007 Argyle tender. How do I confirm it is a tender diamond? I tried contacting Rio Tinto but they would not help me.

I would imagine it should have a laser inscription of the tender id on the girdle. It should also come with the proper paperwork. Did that not come with it?
 

kenny

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Re: How to determine if my pink diamond is from a Argyle ten

Diamond vendors (and perhaps high end collectors) who are invited to the annual Argyle Tender auction get a catalog, which I understand to be somewhat private and controlled.

Leibish & Co. was invited and won several stones this year and their website reveals that they have attended in previous years too.

Perhaps send them your specs and ask them if your pink was on the 2007 list. www.fancydiamonds.net

TL, just because an Argyle pink got a laser inscription does not mean it was one of the 50 or to best Argyle stones offered in their annual Tender auction.
I know because I bought a pink with the Arygle laser inscription, which was not a tender stone.
Believe me, if it was a Tender stone Lebish would have mentioned it, and it probably would have been much more expensive.
Below is a pic I took of my pink's Argyle laser inscription.

Are you certain that the Argyle Tender stones get an additional laser inscription with the Lot ID?



BTW, Leibish currently has a listing for a 0.80 pure red that was in the 2011 Tender.
Here is the listing, though someone has it on reserve.

http://www.fancydiamonds.net/view_diamonds/5643.htm

Note that they also show the GIA report.
In the comments section it indicates the Argyle inscription number but nothing regarding it being a Tender stone or a Tender Lot #.
Notice the Argyle document DOES state it was a Tender stone.



The GIA report:

a.png

1.png

2.png
 

AN0NYM0US

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Re: How to determine if my pink diamond is from a Argyle ten

Sorry for the threadjack...

Kenny, did your argyle pink come with paperwork from Rio Tinto? There seems to be quite a few that don't.

As a consumer should one be concerned if there isn't accompanying paperwork? Couldn't a third party put an inscription on a pink and command an "argyle premium"?

Is there a database somewhere to verify Argyle Pink diamonds?
 

kenny

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Re: How to determine if my pink diamond is from a Argyle ten

Pilot172|1323358986|3077065 said:
Hello,

I own a .55ct vivid pink Argyle diamond. I was told it was in the 2007 Argyle tender. How do I confirm it is a tender diamond? I tried contacting Rio Tinto but they would not help me.

BTW, I also tried to contact RT and Argyle with questions and they didn't bother with me.

BTW, not many people are buying vivd pinks over half a carat: I'd LoOoOoOoOVE to see a pic of your stone and specs. :love:
I'm an FCD geek and it's fun to share the love.
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/fancy-colored-diamond-collection.159746/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/fancy-colored-diamond-collection.159746/[/URL]
 

kenny

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Re: How to determine if my pink diamond is from a Argyle ten

AN0NYM0US|1323365358|3077124 said:
Sorry for the threadjack...
Kenny, did your argyle pink come with paperwork from Rio Tinto? There seems to be quite a few that don't.
As a consumer should one be concerned if there isn't accompanying paperwork? Couldn't a third party put an inscription on a pink and command an "argyle premium"?
Is there a database somewhere to verify Argyle Pink diamonds?

Good questions and they are similar to the ones I posed to Argyle, but they didn't return calls or emails to me, a lowly private individual.
I am too little, and they are too big. :((

My pink has the laser Argyle inscription (see the pic above) but it did not come with a document from Argyle.
Its GIA report does indicate the inscription, but I doubt GIA looks into who put it there.

Sure it is technically possible some third party with access to the expensive laser equipment is involved and ripping us off by counterfeiting Argyle laser inscriptions.
But I doubt it.

I believe Leibish to be quite reputable, as they are one of only about 100 to earn a ticket to the invitation-only Argyle Tender Auctions.
Leibish is one of the highest-volume sellers if not the highest, of the finer FCDs. (I've seen many sellers of inexpensive-color, heavily-included FCDs.)
They sell to the public and to the trade so I doubt they'd risk their reputation selling pinks with counterfeit Argyle laser inscriptions.

Over the years I have been paying very close attention to try to decipher Argyle's system for the pecking order of Argyle's pinks.
Generally the better the stone the more Argyle wants to stamp their name on it but I've noticed many inconsistencies.
Some really fine Argyle pinks get no inscription or certificate and some lesser ones getting both.

Argyle must have a database documenting what they put their laser inscriptions on and which got a document, but good luck gaining access.
If you do let me know.
The diamond industry is very hush hush and I'd guess even moreso with the high-value pinks.

FWIW Leibish has told me regardless of the certificate or inscription a gemologist experienced in pinks can recognize Argyle origin by the color.
 

kenny

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Re: How to determine if my pink diamond is from a Argyle ten

FWIW I found some interesting reading on the 2007 Tender for you.
Apparently there were only 3 Fancy Vivid Pinks that year.

http://www.riotintodiamonds.com/documents/Pink_Tender_Press_Release_2007.pdf

http://www.jckonline.com/2007/01/01/jck-exclusive-argyle-tender-offers-pick-pinks

BTW, a contact person at Argyle is:
Robyn Ellison Communications Manager Rio Tinto Diamonds
M: +61 417 968 359 E: [email protected]

You may want to shoot him an email.
 

AN0NYM0US

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Re: How to determine if my pink diamond is from a Argyle ten

kenny|1323366144|3077133 said:
AN0NYM0US|1323365358|3077124 said:
Sorry for the threadjack...
Kenny, did your argyle pink come with paperwork from Rio Tinto? There seems to be quite a few that don't.
As a consumer should one be concerned if there isn't accompanying paperwork? Couldn't a third party put an inscription on a pink and command an "argyle premium"?
Is there a database somewhere to verify Argyle Pink diamonds?

Good questions and they are similar to the ones I posed to Argyle, but they didn't return calls or emails to me, a lowly private individual.
I am too little, and they are too big. :((

My pink has the laser Argyle inscription (see the pic above) but it did not come with a document from Argyle.
Its GIA report does indicate the inscription, but I doubt GIA looks into who put it there.

Sure it is technically possible some third party with access to the expensive laser equipment is involved and ripping us off by counterfeiting Argyle laser inscriptions.
But I doubt it.

I believe Leibish to be quite reputable, as they are one of only about 100 to earn a ticket to the invitation-only Argyle Tender Auctions.
Leibish is one of the highest-volume sellers if not the highest, of the finer FCDs. (I've seen many sellers of inexpensive-color, heavily-included FCDs.)
They sell to the public and to the trade so I doubt they'd risk their reputation selling pinks with counterfeit Argyle laser inscriptions.


Over the years I have been paying very close attention to try to decipher Argyle's system for the pecking order of Argyle's pinks.
Generally the better the stone the more Argyle wants to stamp their name on it but I've noticed many inconsistencies.
Some really fine Argyle pinks get no inscription or certificate and some lesser ones getting both.

Argyle must have a database documenting what they put their laser inscriptions on and which got a document, but good luck gaining access.
If you do let me know.
The diamond industry is very hush hush and I'd guess even moreso with the high-value pinks.

FWIW Leibish has told me regardless of the certificate or inscription a gemologist experienced in pinks can recognize Argyle origin by the color.

I agree that Leibish is a very reputable vendor and highly doubt they would knowingly sell "counterfeit" argyles.

However it is not often the vendor that submits a stone for grading, it is usually the cutter before he sells it to said vendor. My concern isn't whether vendors are necessarily honest, but rather the security in the laser inscription, alone. It scares me as a consumer that I am asked to pay a premium (approx. 30%) for a brand that I can't, and the company (RT) won't help me verify.

The issue is very real to me as I DID just put an offer on an Argyle Pink w/ a laser inscription only.
 

kenny

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Re: How to determine if my pink diamond is from a Argyle ten

You have a legitimate concern and I wish Argyle or Rio Tinto would address this.

I have sent an email to the contact above and included a link to this thread.
I doubt (s)he will respond to my email or this thread but it couldn't hurt to try.
 

Leibish & Co.

Rough_Rock
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Re: How to determine if my pink diamond is from a Argyle ten

Hey all,

This is an excellent topic and great questions,
I don't think there's a straight answer to your question, I'll divide your topics into the 2 matters:
first the stone you bought that the vendor said it's 2007 Tender stone. From argyle themselves you will most probably not get an answer as they are very confidential and usually refuse to confirm whether or not a certain stone were from them, maybe since it's a Tender stone their response will be different since those stones were published in the 2007 tender book, but in general I know it's not so easy for privets to get a hold of them.

If the stone was in 2007 tender, it should appear in that year's tender book, I assume the vendor you bought it from can provide you the lot number and you can look it up in the book. (you will have to find a vendor who participated in that year's tender and still has the book with him)

It is very important to deal with people you trust and know their way around in the Fancy color diamonds world; this field is a completely different field from colorless diamonds and requires a totally different understating of diamonds then in the colorless territory….
if the vendor you work with is someone you trust and have confidence in, and you from your research you understood he knows is way around in the FCD world, I highly doubt if he will say a stone was in tender while it wasn't, since a tender stone is something which is possible to find out whether or not it was in the tender.

Regarding the other matter you mentioned, that cutters may add the argyle engraving to the girdle just to sell the stone as an argyle diamond while it's not.
I have to admit we have never came across this kind of fraud, and if people are actually doing this, it is extremely wrong and shouldn't happen.

I can say the following, every mine has its own unique criteria and characteristic, for example Pink stones from Kimberly are much more to the baby pink shade while Pink stones from Brazil have some kind of Brownish tint them and so on…. When you see huge quantities of goods on a daily basis(and I do mean huge quantities), when you smell and breath Fancy color diamonds, it becomes part of your essence, you can identify the different types, the different shades, the different intensities, cuts, clarity's and the different materials of the diamonds. A diamond from the argyle mine doesn't look like a diamond from Kimberly mine or from /brazil or from India; they have a completely different material. ,even if a fraud cutter will have the laser inscription engraved on a stone, it will not make the stone into argyle material. Shmulik, our trained GIA GG with his excellent understanding in FCD or Leibish with his knowledge will smell this from a mile away.

It will be like seating in standard family car like let say Renault that someone decided to put a Ferrari logo at the front at of the car, just because it has a Ferry symbol doesn't make the car into a Ferrari, you fill and see the difference.

Same here, if the vendor you buy from are trained enough and know FCD and have seen enough Argyle diamonds to be specialized in matter , it will be very very difficult to sell them a regular pink diamond impersonating as an argyle diamond… it will not work.
Here comes into consideration the trust issue between a customer and his vendor. You have to work with vendors you trust (especially when it come to the high figures like tender stones), you need to trust your vendor's integrity, professionalism, knowledge and that their understating f the matter is the highest levels possible (in everything in life, not just diamonds).

The approach should be that he knows what he is doing, , since when you go to professionals and seek for their advise, it is done because they have the knowledge, experience and expertise that are supposed to "save" you from being coned by con men's. The professional should be your protector.

I always say lot's of home work are needed in this field, search, read, learn and then learn some more, the more you learn, the easier it will be to make the decision.

Hopes this helps a bit….

I wish you all a great weekend,

Itzik Polnauer

*I apologies in advance if someone answers during the weekend, it's Shabat in Israel and I will not be able to answer only until Shabat is finished.
 

TristanC

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Re: How to determine if my pink diamond is from a Argyle ten

Hey! I have what appears to be a kimberly pink! Its not a Renault! ;(
 

Pilot172

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Re: How to determine if my pink diamond is from a Argyle ten

Thank you all very much for your fast input. I am very impressed by this forum. Keep up the great work.

I purchased the diamond privately from an investor who needed to sell some assets. He provide me with his orginal receipt and the GIA but he said he did not receive an Argyle report. I have attached my GIA report in hopes someone can look up this diamond. Also, I recently submited the GIA to Leibish & Co., they replied they will try to determine if this is a tender diamond.

Also, I am going to email Rio Tinto again, asking for a way to confirm tender diamonds.

This is my first diamond investment. Any comments on this diamond are also welcome.

image_4.jpg
 

kenny

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Re: How to determine if my pink diamond is from a Argyle ten

Pilot, the GIA report image is blury.
It may be helpful if you tell us your GIA report # and the Argyle number printed in the comments section.
If you prefer to not publish these it would be understandable.

FWIW even if it is not a tender stone you have a very important diamond.
A GIA 0.55 ct Fancy Vivid Pink with VS1 clarity ranks up in the stratosphere of colored diamonds.
Vivid is the most expensive grade.
IMHO, the Argyle mine has peaked and your stone is from the mine's glory days.
I heard in the 2011 Tender almost all of the pinks had I1 or SI clarity.
I think under five had VS clarity and they are now even including stones far under 0.50 ct now.
There was only one red (above) and no violets.

To find if yours is a tender stone you need to locate someone who attended the 2007 Tender and still has the catalog.
Here are a few people/companies you may want to contact.
If they don't have a catalog they may know someone who does.

Alan Friedman at (310) 278-4944 http://www.alandiamonds.com/ appeared in a TV special about diamonds, NOVA I think.
They actually filmed him IN the Argyle Tender auction viewing stones.
He is a jeweler in Beverly Hills CA.

Stephen Hofer (413) 269-4004 http://www.stephenhofer.com/ wrote a huge reference book on Fancy Colored Diamonds you may want to buy:
http://www.amazon.com/Collecting-Classifying-Coloured-Diamonds-Illustrated/dp/0965941019/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1323454995&sr=1-1
I bought mine used a couple years ago for around $200 - today it's around $500 and they have a copy that's $2,500 :-o maybe it's signed or something.
This price increase make me suspect Fancy Colored Diamonds may be catching on.
You might consider sending your pink to Hofer for his hightly-regarded report.
Many top shelf colored diamonds are offered with a report from him and IMHO his report (which costs a few hundred bucks) will contribute to the value of your stone.
I'd do it now in case (God forbid) he gets hit by a truck.
He may also know contacts who attended the 2007 Tender.

Alan Bronstein is an important FCD collector and owns, or is one of the owners of, the renowned Aurora Collection of diamonds that tours museums.
His collection is also the subject of Stephen Hofer's seminal book.
http://www.auroragems.com/aurora_collection.html

Other contacts:

http://www.ncdia.com/

http://www.amgad.com/

http://www.serendiamonds.com/

http://www.fancycolordiamond.net/

http://www.rarecoloreddiamonds.com/

Hope this helps.
 

Barrett

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Re: How to determine if my pink diamond is from a Argyle ten

Fantastic information provided in this thread. Well done!
 

Pilot172

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Re: How to determine if my pink diamond is from a Argyle ten

Kenny, thank you very much. That is a great post.

Sorry, for the blurry GIA. GIA 291998201, Argyle Inscription 313549.
 

kenny

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Re: How to determine if my pink diamond is from a Argyle ten

GIA's website has an online service for verifying a report if you have the carat weight and the Report #.

http://www.gia.edu/reportcheck/

I just checked it and it did not find it.
It should have if the date is later than 2000.

Are you sure of that GIA report #?
Are you sure it is 0.55 ct?
Again if you wanted to keep these numbers private, that's fine.
But DO look it up yourself.
Call GIA if you don't find a match.
Perhaps there was a clerical error.

Screen shot 2011-12-09 at 8.58.48 PM.png
 

kenny

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Re: How to determine if my pink diamond is from a Argyle ten

Perhaps you have already done this but another thing I'd do (after verifying with GIA the report is legit) is verify the stone IS the one described in the report.
I did that when I bought my Argyle pink.
Instead of shipping it, I actually personally drove the diamond and the report to GIA.
In the US they have locations in NY and California and also in several other countries.
For a nominal fee they verified the diamond was the one described by the report and gave me a laminated letter to document this.
If you ship it use Brinks or Malca Amit since USP and FedEx can't insure that value and USPS Registered has a $25,000 limit.

GIA will do this for any member of the public after you fill out some forms identifying yourself and provide ID.
You don't need a jeweler or an appraiser to send it in for you - though they'd be glad to do this for a fee that they may or may not reveal to you.
You can call GIA to learn the current fee.

It was my first FCD purchase and I was very green and nervous. (Fancy Vivid Green :mrgreen: )
Now I trust my vendor.

Most any jeweler can verify it is a real diamond and many qualified independent professional appraisers (NOT paid for or selected by the seller) can do a competent report match, but being new and very OCD I wanted the highest authority, GIA itself.

You can also check some things yourself.
Use a loupe to verify that the type and location of the inclusions match those on the plots of your GIA report.
Knowing and louping your inclusions is always wise when handing your diamond over for setting/cleaning.
This may not be easy since the very strong Vivid color may mask inclusions, and VS1 inclusions are sometimes not easy for the inexperienced to find even in a colorless diamond.
You can buy a metric calipers or micrometer from Home Depot to carefully verify the dimensions.
Be careful you don't chip the culet, that point on the bottom.
Getting a scale that can accurately measure 0.55 ct will not be cheap, or likely to be useful for other things, so I'd ask a jeweler or pawn shop or 2 or 3 to weight it.
Considering its value I'd feel safer just letting them think it's not a natural diamond.
 

Pilot172

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Re: How to determine if my pink diamond is from a Argyle ten

I wrote the wrong number from the GIA report. The report number is 16826512.

Kenny, I think sending the diamond to GIA for verification is good idea and I would also like to get a Hofer report. Does anyone have experience in shipping a diamond from Canada to the USA?
 

kenny

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Re: How to determine if my pink diamond is from a Argyle ten

That's good news.
I see it is Fancy Vivid Purplish Pink.
Those are so beautiful!!!!

I'd call Malca Amit for international shipping. http://www.malca-amit.com/
The diamond industry uses them and they specialize in security for these sensitive high-value gems.
I appreciated that they had a scale and lighting customarily used for examining diamonds to immediately verify the goods when received.

Hofer is in Western Massachusetts not far from Canada's southeastern border.
I'd consider just hand carrying it to GIA NY and Hofer.
A good deal on a plane ticket might be actually be competitive with shipping and insurance and you could just make a holiday of it.
Call GIA and Hofer to explain and ask them if they can schedule it so they have a fast turn around without the diamond waiting around for day or weeks in a queue.
You could sew it into your clothes just like royalty of old.

Seriously, I'd call Canadian customs to find out how to avoid taxes/customs/duty since no sale is taking place.
Malca Amit may have helpful advice and experience on this topic.
 

Imdanny

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Re: How to determine if my pink diamond is from a Argyle ten

Kenny, do you have a picture of your green? I''d like to see it again please. Such a beautiful stone. I like this green you've recommended too. Very pretty! :love:
 

kenny

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Re: How to determine if my pink diamond is from a Argyle ten

Imdanny|1323544751|3078583 said:
Kenny, do you have a picture of your green? I''d like to see it again please. Such a beautiful stone. I like this green you've recommended too. Very pretty! :love:
Oh Danny, you know I just hate posting my pics; I'm so shy and secretive! :lol: , and I was hoping the OP would post pics of his Vivid Purplish Pink. :love:
I feel I've theadjacked Pilot's thread enough, but since you twisted my arm here are my fav 3 pics of my green.

Green.png

4.png

Family Portrait.png
 

Imdanny

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Re: How to determine if my pink diamond is from a Argyle ten

Oh wow- where are my manners?! I'm sorry, Pilot!

Kenny, thanks! I think if I had that green I'd take it and the yellow and stare at them all day! :love:
 

Pilot172

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Re: How to determine if my pink diamond is from a Argyle ten

Hi guys,

Reid Mackie of Rio Tinto has confirmed my diamond is from the 2007 Argyle tender. Yeah.

Kenny, I do not have any good pics of my diamond. The diamond is located inside my safety deposit box and the bank will not allow cameras inside the vault.
 

minousbijoux

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Re: How to determine if my pink diamond is from a Argyle ten

Thank you all for posting - this has been a hugely informative thread. Kenny, you are quite the diamond expert!
 

kenny

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Re: How to determine if my pink diamond is from a Argyle ten

Pilot172|1323699653|3079763 said:
The diamond is located inside my safety deposit box and the bank will not allow cameras inside the vault.

Congratulations on your good news!
A bank vault is a very smart place for it.
Mine are worth much less than yours but also live in a bank vault.

I'm going to ask a delicate question.
FCDs are rare and pinks like yours are one in a zillion.
Since there is so little data it is nearly impossible to develop any feeling for pricing on such goods or how it changes year to year.
Every data point is like gold.
Even if you follow every FCD vendor that publishes prices the top ones are usually CALL FOR PRICE.
Christie's and Sotheby's have few such goods and the frenzy of an auction must be taken into account.
Next, these are retail or auction houses which can command a premium over non-retail transactions (another mouth to feed).

I think you can see where I'm going with this . . .
Naturally you don't have to answer and you can even call me out and give me an e-rebuke for being tacky but . . .
Here we go . . . Would you like to go on record reporting what you paid, and what the seller paid and when?

Next, we all know about the retail market and the auction houses, but you said you purchased the diamond privately from an investor who needed to sell some assets.
How would we who own FCDs find buyers such as you - or buyers find sellers of FCDs preferably without sharing the proceeds with a middleman?
I'm not asking you to reveal the actual identity of your seller or his broker, but could you in general describe the transaction?
Did you see an ad in a newspaper or some website and deal directly with the seller?
Was there a third party who connected the seller and you the buyer?
If so do you know the commission?

Again, this is none of my business and you can dress me down for being rude, or just not respond.
I'd totally understand.
It's just that your transaction is a unique moment in the history of FCDs on PS and I want to milk it to learn as much as possible.
 

AN0NYM0US

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Re: How to determine if my pink diamond is from a Argyle ten

I just came back to this thread and wanted to thank everyone for their very insightful posts, especially Itzik Polnauer of Leibish. I have to admit my concerns are still there as a consumer and, I guess, born cynic. I really wish Rio would create some sort of online verification process similar to what GIA had to do to combat a very similar issue. Any time a premium is placed on an item people will try to exploit it.

ETA- I am amazed the OP was able to get verbal verificcation from RT. I had never heard of this happening before and see it as a possible turn for the better...that or the OP is one smooth talker :Up_to_something: Thank you Pilot172 for following up.
 

Pilot172

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Re: How to determine if my pink diamond is from a Argyle ten

I got a great deal. The original purchaser paid $125,000 US dollars including taxes in April 2008. I paid $58,000 USD in May 2011. My understanding is high end FCD can be hard to liquidate quickly especially in a recession. The original purchaser did not want to sell but needed cash for a real estate deal. I meet him through eBay.ca but dealt with him in person. He flew to meet me, we got the diamond verified, then went to bank to transfer the funds.

I am looking for another Argyle tender diamond, pink or purplish pink. I know Leiblish & Co. have three coming out of GIA soon. If anyone knows of a inexpensive priced tender diamond please let me know. My budget is around $50,000 US
 

T L

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Re: How to determine if my pink diamond is from a Argyle ten

Pilot172|1323786826|3080447 said:
I got a great deal. The original purchaser paid $125,000 US dollars including taxes in April 2008. I paid $58,000 USD in May 2011. My understanding is high end FCD can be hard to liquidate quickly especially in a recession. The original purchaser did not want to sell but needed cash for a real estate deal. I meet him through eBay.ca but dealt with him in person. He flew to meet me, we got the diamond verified, then went to bank to transfer the funds.

I am looking for another Argyle tender diamond, pink or purplish pink. I know Leiblish & Co. have three coming out of GIA soon. If anyone knows of a inexpensive priced tender diamond please let me know. My budget is around $50,000 US

Wow, he lost more than 50% of his purchase price on that deal. That must have been very painful to him, but good luck for you. $58K for such a stone is a steal.
 

kenny

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Re: How to determine if my pink diamond is from a Argyle ten

Thanks so much Pilot.
What a killer deal!!! Wow!

I've never bought or sold on eBay.
Does eBay get a cut, or can it just serve to connect the two parties who complete the deal offline?
If the later and the auction was not successful online I'm guessing the seller still had to pay something to list it.
No?
 
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