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How closely are you following Trump's trial, and aftermath?

How closely are you following Trump's trial, and aftermath?

  • Not at all

    Votes: 17 25.8%
  • Very little

    Votes: 17 25.8%
  • Little

    Votes: 4 6.1%
  • Averagely

    Votes: 11 16.7%
  • Much

    Votes: 3 4.5%
  • Very much

    Votes: 10 15.2%
  • As much as possible

    Votes: 4 6.1%

  • Total voters
    66
  • This poll will close: .

missy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 8, 2008
Messages
30,829

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 26, 2003
Messages
20,720
I would be pretty surprised if he doesn't win again. The democratic leadership race seems to be pretty blah and not very inspiring.
In a country of thinking people, the line up of Democratic candidates would look very good indeed, especially to people faced with Trump as an alternative! Why not face the truth? This country is comprised of ill-informed people who do not have a clue as to what is going on in the world.They are the ultimate dupes for Trump. They see Potemkin villages and are awed by them. That is the power of Fox News.
 

redwood66

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 22, 2012
Messages
6,743
I know you are one of the "good ones", JPie, so I really don't want to fight. However, I feel bound to say that because other countries are moving towards fascism does not mean America losing its Constitution is not a problem. Or even that it is not a uniquely American problem. None other countries you named had our history.We were unique in having a long history of democracy.
What in the actual hell does this mean? Anyone who does not agree with you is not "good"? I thought you could rise above this kind of nonsense.
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 26, 2003
Messages
20,720
What in the actual hell does this mean? Anyone who does not agree with you is not "good"? I thought you could rise above this kind of nonsense.

I don't owe you an explanation. I certainly didn't mean what you inferred. The fact that you leapt to a conclusion is not my responsibility.
 

smitcompton

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Feb 11, 2006
Messages
2,582
Hi,

The Constitution clearly speaks about impeachment as in "High Crimes and Misdemeanors". The other two reasons for impeachment were bribery and treason. This covered what the framers were worried about in the executive. Having just won a war of independence they worried about any interference from foreign countries. They did worry about a self dealing President. The criminal code was not codified yet so High Crimes and Misdemeanors did not refer to criminal laws. Its whatever the House says it is.
1. The Pres did commit bribery. You get dirt on Biden--you get your money. This is a criminal act backed by the IG.
2. Linsay Graham, yesterday said Trump did not believe he did anything wrong. Thus the perfect call.
Our Pres does not know anything about the Constitution. How then can he be trusted to protect it?
3. The Pres has instructed all witnesses not to testify. The Pres. has not declared Executive Privilege-just not to testify. Obstruction of Congress for sure.

What is amazing is how differently people view these events. Donald Trump is defective as a Pres and human being. When a group controls the outcome of something that I believe may lead to the downfall of our democracy, I question how really smart that other side can be. Power is really seductive. The evidence of that is clear. Why is there so much blockage of what this Pres is?

Annette
 

the_mother_thing

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Mar 2, 2013
Messages
5,962
@Tekate Do I think there should have been impeachment inquiries to Obama’s actions (his admin)? Yes ... American lives were lost in Benghazi and Fast & Furious, for starters. Not the case with Trump allegations, though I acknowledge Impeachment and removal from office is not dependent on ‘dead bodies’. But I maintain, comparing what Obama/his administration did and what Trump is alleged to have done is apples & oranges.

@Maria D I’m pretty sure Judge Nap is just pissed Trump didn’t pick him (opting for Dershowitz) for the legal defense team. :lol: Seriously, though, he’s entitled to his opinion, but it’s just that - an opinion (and that’s the proper portion of the website it’s categorized, thankfully); he’s more ‘known’ for writing books & his Fox stints (and getting a deserved time-out from Fox some time back for his mouth) than anything. I’m mostly interested to hear how Dershowitz lays out his position on impeachment ... the rest (both sides) is just noise. When you read back through history, it’s fascinating to see how many different approaches were taken to the matter and defining “high crimes & misdemeanors”

@sarahb On the issue of House subpoenas, they had no problem issuing a slew of subpoenas for testimony, so not sure where you got the info you posted re: an announcement preceding a floor vote. Bolton - via his attorney - has the right to take the matter to court (as did Kupperman) because on one hand they have (or in Bolton‘s case was ‘threatened with’) a subpoena and on the other hand the WH ordering them not to respond due to Executive Privilege, and the only way to resolve those two conflicts is to go to the third branch of government for a decision. So no, it’s not about whether an announcement preceded a floor vote; the truth is, the House chose not to wait for the court to decide because they were in a hurry ... and we all know why.

And while typing this response, I literally just heard Rep. Eric Swalwell (D-CA) confirm it in a live interview regarding why they didn’t allow the court to decide Bolton’s testimony, stating “we didn’t have time to waste with an election coming...” That lends as much credibility to the argument that impeachment is Dems’ attempt to interfere with the 2020 election as one of the Dems’ witnesses’ opinion was Trump abused his power. Further refuting your claim ...

Should the fight over Bolton's testimony go to court, it would likely lead to a prolonged process that would extend beyond the House impeachment efforts, which they are looking to wrap up before the end of the year. Therefore, any court decision that would allow Bolton to testify would likely come too late for the Democrats' timeline.
Per CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/07/politics/john-bolton-no-subpoena-court-battle/index.html

And

Mr. Bolton—whom Mr. Trump fired in September amid policy disagreements—didn’t appear Thursday morning as requested for a closed-door deposition before the House impeachment inquiry, and Democrats didn’t issue a subpoena to him. Mr. Bolton’s attorney told the committee that Mr. Bolton would take the matter to court if Democrats subpoenaed him, said an official on the House Intelligence committee, one of three committees conducting the inquiry.

The decision not to subpoena Mr. Bolton indicated that House Democrats are eager to keep the inquiry on a fast track and don’t want to get bogged down in legal fights.
Per WSJ: https://www.wsj.com/articles/house-impeachment-investigators-wont-subpoena-john-bolton-11573147474

@smitcompton Please point/link to the transcript or witness who testified that they heard Trump say “You get dirt on Biden--you get your money.” Or was this just bullshiff, and you were injecting your own interpretation of someone else’s intent?

On the rest of the posts - just like with Kavanaugh - ‘ya’ll’ convicted the accused long before they were even charged (or in Trump’s case, before he even took the oath of office). Dems - in America, on this forum and darn near every media outlet - assigned ‘guilt’ to and convicted Trump looooong before an inquiry was announced in the fall (don’t make me post the videos, please). Dems made it clear they would stop at nothing until he was gone from the WH and - now - are blatantly touting the need to keep him off the ballot in 2020. That’s a dangerous game ... let’s just call it “Nuclear Option 2.0” and hold our breath until it blows up in the abusing-party’s face ... because that is a recent precedent we’re all quite familiar with, even if some still haven’t learned from it.

You can’t have it both ways - you can’t beat your your chest chanting “constitution, constitution, constitution” while simultaneously picking it apart for the pieces that serve your party’s politically-driven purposes by denying American citizens’ their constitutional rights; that defeats the very heart, strength & value of the Constitution, IMO.

This isn’t Burger King ... you don’t get it “your way”. The President is not ‘above the law’, and neither are Congress members who abuse their position and their power for their own personal political gain ... that’s no better than what they accuse the President of with this sham. So IMO - if you support Dems in this effort - grab your tanning bed goggles & log onto your twitter accounts because you’re no better than Trump.
 

Maria D

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 24, 2003
Messages
1,776
On the rest of the posts - just like with Kavanaugh - ‘ya’ll’ convicted the accused long before they were even charged (or in Trump’s case, before he even took the oath of office). Dems - in America, on this forum and darn near every media outlet - assigned ‘guilt’ to and convicted Trump looooong before an inquiry was announced in the fall (don’t make me post the videos, please). Dems made it clear they would stop at nothing until he was gone from the WH and - now - are blatantly touting the need to keep him off the ballot in 2020. That’s a dangerous game ... let’s just call it “Nuclear Option 2.0” and hold our breath until it blows up in the abusing-party’s face ... because that is a recent precedent we’re all quite familiar with, even if some still haven’t learned from it.
My my such hysteria! I'm starting to think Trump apologists (or Chump as I think you used to call him) are actually getting worried here. Calm down. He is not going to be removed and we all know it. The Dems had no choice but to impeach, Trump saw to that. He's been itching for it all along, as he understands that it fires up the base (and evidently even those who were not originally his base).

The Senate trial has nothing to do with finding Trump "guilty of allegations." He admits to the allegations, even brags about them. His supporters admit to them. There will be no dangerous nuclear option. For the Democratic majority House to not impeach would be like a bullied child that never stands up for himself. The dems could not NOT impeach and ever hope to be re-elected again. A majority of Americans want Trump impeached AND REMOVED (which will not happen) so the dems had no choice.

This trial is about forcing the Republican led Senate to come to reckoning for a leader that they cannot control. They will acquit and it will be on record.
 

smitcompton

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Feb 11, 2006
Messages
2,582
Hi,

Mick Mulvaney said it. In a press conference he admitted the whole thing--didn't call it bribery--said everyone did it.

The Pres's interview on the White House lawn--admitted he did it. Called on China to also investigate the Bidens.

Ambassadoe Sondheim??? told of his conversation.

Additional person was at the Ambassadors table who heard it.

Mick Mulvaney stopped the aid from going through.
The Speaker did not want to impeach him.
I did want to impeach him. IMO he is not fit to be Pres.
\
Why do you think so many prominent Rep want him impeached? Just not these Senators.

Its not just Dems. Its Reb. 7out of 10 people want witnesses.--
there HAS NEVER BEEN ANYTHING LIKE THIS GUY. tmt WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR oTHER TAG?

Annette
 

sarahb

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 20, 2012
Messages
1,893
@the_mother_thing re subpoena power.

Its quite simple: the house could not enforce subpoena power because the full house did not vote to authorize an impeachment. It was simply announced. By not voting, they did not have judicial authority to enforce a legal subpoena. Hence, it was simply called an 'Inquiry'.

If you read the subpoena letters issued by the House, they leave out any mention of penalty etc. for non-compliance. The House lacked the ability for enforcement because they did authorize, by a vote, the House hearings.

This House Impeachment 'Inquiry' was a non-constitutional, non-authorized, fishing expedition. And that is one of the reasons why this effort will eventually fall apart once the Senate Managers have their turn this weekend.

Myself, @Dancing Fire, @redwood66, @Karl_K & a few others that I can't remember are some of the non-closeted PS conservatives. I rarely post on these political threads as the level of discussion seems to get a bit too hot & not nice for my taste, but wanted to answer DF's post.

So, here's the link to my thinking on the subpoena issue. Conservative Tree House is a great source for clarity on particular matters. I am one of the many thousands who have turned away from the compliant, mainstream media.

 

Maria D

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 24, 2003
Messages
1,776
Did you see the comments section of that editorial? It's like a cult. @Alexiszoe is right about the parallels to the Dave Chapelle skit, but the depressing thing is that it's real life and it's every person who still supports Trump.
I know, borders on lunacy. A recent one refers to Napolitano as a "so-called judge" and says Fox must be patriotic and turn him in to the FBI for high treason. Honestly, it reads like satire!
 

Maria D

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 24, 2003
Messages
1,776
This House Impeachment 'Inquiry' was a non-constitutional, non-authorized, fishing expedition.
You state this as fact but many legal scholars disagree. It is certainly the talking point put forth by the Trump administration, but that doesn't make it true.
 

the_mother_thing

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Mar 2, 2013
Messages
5,962
Oh dear @Maria D I am as far from ‘hysterical’ or ‘worried’ as one can get in all of this. I didn’t reach for tissues, safe spaces and coloring books in 2016; I‘m certainly not starting now. I’m also not the sore loser now crying about how the ‘other side’ is getting away with something that was sold to ‘you’ as “overwhelming and compelling” evidence and for which ‘you’ bought (or donated to support).

@sarahb Thank you for the link/background. I was not aware the validity of the ‘subpoenas’ issued by the House was in question, but sadly it’s not surprising given they rushed this mess through the House ... just makes this entire sham even more shameful. I hope to God there is accountability and severe repercussions for the frauds who perpetrated this entire hoax; sadly, there rarely is. ETA: Regardless of the legitimacy of the subpoenas, I vehemently detest the Dems attempts to prevent citizens from exercising their right to leverage the courts to resolve disputes; that’s just another dangerous slippery slope I hope does not crumble due to Dems’ malfeasance.
 
Last edited:

Maria D

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 24, 2003
Messages
1,776
Oh dear @Maria D I am as far from ‘hysterical’ or ‘worried’ as one can get in all of this. I didn’t reach for tissues, safe spaces and coloring books in 2016; I‘m certainly not starting now. I’m also not the sore loser now crying about how the ‘other side’ is getting away with something that was sold to ‘you’ as “overwhelming and compelling” evidence and for which ‘you’ bought (or donated to support).
Ok, I'll take your word for it. To me you come across as quite aggressive, bandying about terms like sore loser and suggesting that people that disagree with you are crybabies. I'll choose to assume it's just a tone misunderstanding that often happens in online discourse.
 

redwood66

Ideal_Rock
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Joined
Aug 22, 2012
Messages
6,743
I don't owe you an explanation. I certainly didn't mean what you inferred. The fact that you leapt to a conclusion is not my responsibility.
You're right you don't owe me anything. What other conclusion could I come to by your post then if you would care to share? Especially considering your later post about thinking people, the ill-informed, and dupes in the US.
 

redwood66

Ideal_Rock
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Joined
Aug 22, 2012
Messages
6,743
We'll see how this dung pile turns out and then move on. Trump is not going anywhere and will likely be reelected in Nov. If not, then I'm fine with that too as I can accept what the electoral college votes decide.
 

Queenie60

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Sep 15, 2014
Messages
3,960
In a country of thinking people, the line up of Democratic candidates would look very good indeed, especially to people faced with Trump as an alternative! Why not face the truth? This country is comprised of ill-informed people who do not have a clue as to what is going on in the world.They are the ultimate dupes for Trump. They see Potemkin villages and are awed by them. That is the power of Fox News.
I find this to be quite offensive. I am a Trump supporter - and please know that I am a very educated, and kind human being. I am certainly not "duped" by anything.
 

OboeGal

Shiny_Rock
Premium
Joined
Mar 22, 2017
Messages
346
You're right you don't owe me anything. What other conclusion could I come to by your post then if you would care to share? Especially considering your later post about thinking people, the ill-informed, and dupes in the US.
I can't be sure, as I am not @AGBF, but my impression was that she was acknowledging that in these types of threads, @JPie tends to conduct herself for the most part in a polite and compassionate way, with less of the aggressiveness, personal attacks, name-calling, inflammatory rhetoric, and trolling/baiting that several others do. @AGBF, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
 

redwood66

Ideal_Rock
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I can't be sure, as I am not @AGBF, but my impression was that she was acknowledging that in these types of threads, @JPie tends to conduct herself for the most part in a polite and compassionate way, with less of the aggressiveness, personal attacks, name-calling, inflammatory rhetoric, and trolling/baiting that several others do. @AGBF, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
I might be able to buy this were it not for the later post.
 

Karl_K

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
9,069
I'm more pissed off that congress and Trump saw fit to give away $400 million rather than spend it on roads and bridges if they just had to spend it rather than leave it in our pockets.
You know the stuff that really matters.
 

OboeGal

Shiny_Rock
Premium
Joined
Mar 22, 2017
Messages
346
I find this to be quite offensive. I am a Trump supporter - and please know that I am a very educated, and kind human being. I am certainly not "duped" by anything.
I agree with her statement. She didn't state that every Trump supporter fits that description, but she's not incorrect that many, many people in America fit that description. Where I live, I unfortunately encounter a great number of them. Regardless of their prior level of education, they refuse to engage their critical thinking skills, refuse to dig deeper to attempt to understand the complexities of issues, refuse to thoughtfully consider any other viewpoint, refuse to look anywhere else for information than the places that tell them what they WANT to hear, refuse to exercise any sense of self-awareness about the fact that they're making decisions in who and what they support (that are deadly serious for so many others) based way too often on gut emotional responses and manipulation (let alone examine what those gut emotional reactions are about), and proceed to repeatedly over years and years vote against their own self-interest and the interests of those they claim to care about. It leaves me heartsick to watch.
 

redwood66

Ideal_Rock
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Joined
Aug 22, 2012
Messages
6,743
I agree with her statement. She didn't state that every Trump supporter fits that description, but she's not incorrect that many, many people in America fit that description. Where I live, I unfortunately encounter a great number of them. Regardless of their prior level of education, they refuse to engage their critical thinking skills, refuse to dig deeper to attempt to understand the complexities of issues, refuse to thoughtfully consider any other viewpoint, refuse to look anywhere else for information than the places that tell them what they WANT to hear, refuse to exercise any sense of self-awareness about the fact that they're making decisions in who and what they support (that are deadly serious for so many others) based way too often on gut emotional responses and manipulation (let alone examine what those gut emotional reactions are about), and proceed to repeatedly over years and years vote against their own self-interest and the interests of those they claim to care about. It leaves me heartsick to watch.
Are you inferring all democrat supporters meet your standards? Surely you jest if you do. Facts are that plenty of voters of all stripes are ill-informed, emotional, and prone to manipulation. That's politics and politicians.
 
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OboeGal

Shiny_Rock
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Joined
Mar 22, 2017
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346
And just to be clear - I'm not ascribing those characteristics to Trump supporters in particular. I'm not ascribing them to any particular political affiliation. I'm stating that repeatedly, both in person and online, I'm encountering so many Americans with these characteristics, regardless of basic intelligence or education level. Democracy cannot be maintained if the constituent members aren't willing to do the hard work of learning, talking, compromising, empathizing, and, most of all, looking hard at themselves and what drives their reactions and beliefs.
 

OboeGal

Shiny_Rock
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Mar 22, 2017
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346
Are you inferring all democrat supporters meet your standards? Surely you jest if you do. Facts are that plenty of voters of all stripes are ill-informed, emotional, and prone to manipulation. That's politics and politicians.
Apparently we were typing at the same time. I think we are in agreement.
 

redwood66

Ideal_Rock
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Joined
Aug 22, 2012
Messages
6,743
Apparently we were typing at the same time. I think we are in agreement.
We may be but all voters are not who @AGBF was referring to in her post. I am disgusted by people who will malign millions of their fellow Americans in such a way. It does not sway those who might be on the fence or willing to compromise. The rhetoric I read on the internet by people on both sides of the aisle is reprehensible and gets us nowhere. Maybe this is where everyone wants to be. If that's true then I am glad I spend less time here. There are much better things to concentrate on.
 
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