shape
carat
color
clarity

Hope the President does a good job for USA

t-c

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This is a great analysis from The Diplomat. I'm posting excerpts, but click on the title to go to the full article (highly recommend):

Why Trump's Threat of 'Fire and Fury' Against North Korea Is So Dangerous
Trump’s empty threats are not only dangerous; they serve to undermine allied commitments and the credibility of U.S. threats.

[snip]...First, it bears stating that it’s not unusual in itself for U.S. officials to threaten nuclear retaliation against North Korea. In previous administrations, officials have often threatened an “effective and overwhelming” U.S. military response — but only in response to North Korea’s use of nuclear weapons. This point is critical because the United States has never overtly threatened first use against North Korea. Previous statements were meant to reiterate retaliatory intent, in order to reassure Seoul and Tokyo that they will be protected under Washington’s nuclear umbrella. Although American nuclear doctrine has always left open the possibility of nuclear first use, it is extremely rare for officials — let alone the president — to openly threaten or hint at being the first to launch a nuclear attack. On Wednesday, Defense Secretary Jim Mattis attempted to set the record straight on the conditions for retaliation by releasing a statement noting the “unquestionable commitment” of the United States to “defend ourselves from an attack.” North Korea has long known that the condition for facing ostensible nuclear “fire and fury” has been that it uses nuclear weapons first. Trump’s remarks on Tuesday suggested that this reality has changed.

So how has Trump threatened himself into a corner?

First, if Trump is serious and intends to carry out his threat, someone should explain to him the concept of “first strike instability,” which is particularly acute in the case of North Korea. The general notion of mutually assured destruction and the related idea of nuclear stability — that states don’t use strategic nuclear weapons because it would be mutually suicidal to do so — requires a very specific set of conditions to prevail, namely that both states possess secure second strike nuclear forces (no first strike can completely disarm the adversary’s nuclear forces, making retaliation certain) and that they accept those forces’ vulnerability (neither state attempts to overturn the adversary’s second-strike forces by explicitly targeting its arsenal)...[snip]

...
This is first-strike instability: If Kim Jong Un fears the United States and its allies are coming after his nuclear forces, his dominant strategic move is to use his nuclear weapons as quickly as he can, before he loses them. Failing to do so would result in his demise, so his only choice is to go first, go early, and go massively — even though the United States would almost surely deliver the promised “effective and overwhelming” retaliation for first use. Given that Kim’s ICBM arsenal might be gone in the first wave of even conventional attack, he simply cannot afford to go second. He may be left with too little — if anything at all — to penetrate American missile defenses if he waits for the cavalry to reach Pyongyang first.

This is why Trump’s off-the-cuff threats matter so much. Kim may view any efforts to carry out this threat as a possible prelude to regime change or an invasion, leaving him with no choice but to take the president at his word (we wonder how “fire and fury” translates in Korean). After a remark like this — which no doubt reinforces Kim’s fear of American-led disarmament or regime change — a “show of strength” that was actually carrying out this threat, or misperceived to be doing so, could quickly find the United States and its allies facing North Korean nuclear first use.

Put simply: new nuclear states with small arsenals faced with the threat of invasion or regime change can have incredibly itchy trigger fingers. It is important that Trump not rub poison ivy all over those fingers and make them even itchier.

If, however, Trump is blustering and has no intention of carrying out his threat in the face of future North Korean provocations, the bluff also carries significant strategic consequences. For one, it would undermine U.S. extended deterrence assurances and strengthen Kim Jong Un’s desire to “decouple” U.S. formal allies — South Korea and Japan — from the American alliance architecture. This was one of the chief strategic concerns regarding North Korea’s acquisition of an ICBM that we highlighted here last month.

Tokyo and Seoul can reasonably worry whether the United States will be deterred from carrying out this threat because North Korea can now hold the U.S. homeland at risk. Bluffing after such an explicit threat blows an ICBM-sized hole through American efforts at reassuring its allies in the region that it will be there for them when the shells start flying. The implications are severe — and could include Japan and South Korea looking to substitute for U.S. extended nuclear deterrence with their own nuclear weapons capabilities. Debates to these ends are underway in both countries...[snip]

All of this makes it even more difficult to set credible lines on North Korea’s behavior and nuclear program in the future. This is not a reality television show — it’s reality. It is tempting to chalk these remarks up to Trump’s shoot-from-the-hip, loose-cannon style and say that everything will be all right because no one should or will take them seriously. But historically, when presidents of the United States speak, nations sit up and take notice. There is no reason to think North Korea will ignore Trump’s words. And now the United States must either carry out the president’s threat and literally risk nuclear war, or admit it was a bluff and risk further emboldening North Korea and eroding the East Asian alliance structure so painstakingly built and reaffirmed for over 60 years.

Words matter, especially when nuclear weapons use is on the line. In a matter of 30 seconds on a Tuesday afternoon, Trump negotiated himself into a disastrous strategic corner.
 

AGBF

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Hi Deb, I need to turn off the news. Too many other sad things going on in my life and worrying about this isn't helping anything.

I am so sorry to hear this, Calliecake. I hope your situation improves.

I have become a television and radio news junkie and am in withdrawal because I am in my house in Virginia, the one I own with my husband (but no longer live in). I have found I cannot watch the news because he cut the television channels down so much that there appears to be no cable. I must have slept through any morning regular news shows. Now I can watch Spanish soap operas or people selling gadgets for cooking, so I am not going near the television! I am glad I return to Connecticut tomorrow!

Deb :wavey:
 

Calliecake

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@AGBF :wavey: Oh Deb, Your post made me LOL because I have spent the last few evenings glued to CNN. I would flip if my husband cut the cable right now. There was a show on last night that I was interested in seeing about the National Instutes of Health and I TiVo it so I could watch CNN. My husband just looked at me and said "Seriously. Watch your show and turn CNN back on at 9:00 PM.

I'm off to enjoy the gorgeous day today. I hope you have a great afternoon.
 

AGBF

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Thanks so much, Calliecake! I probably have not put on a bathing suit in 20 years, but my husband told me to bring one. It feels cold to me here, so I haven't done so yet. We have a heated pool, but my husband never turns on the heat. (As with the cable TV, he saves money. When I used to live here, if my father was going to use the pool, which he did daily when he visited, I heated the pool for hours before he went in!) The next door neighbors asked me over at 3 PM. They are swimming then and said to bring or wear a swimsuit. All this gorgeous day talk makes me wonder why I am freezing! All these pools...and ours looks like heaven...but I know I will die of the cold if I go in!

First World Problem!


Deb
 

Dancing Fire

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@AGBF :wavey: Oh Deb, Your post made me LOL because I have spent the last few evenings glued to CNN. I would flip if my husband cut the cable right now. There was a show on last night that I was interested in seeing about the National Instutes of Health and I TiVo it so I could watch CNN. My husband just looked at me and said "Seriously. Watch your show and turn CNN back on at 9:00 PM.

I'm off to enjoy the gorgeous day today. I hope you have a great afternoon.
Why watch fake news?...:devil::lol:
 

Dancing Fire

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So all of you who constantly say Trump didn't mean what he said, are you beginning to see Trumps words have consequences. SMDH. :angryfire::angryfire::angryfire:
So what do we do?. Give N.K. a few more billions like we did 25 yrs ago so that they can advance their nuke programs?. Iran will be the next N.K. thanks to the Obama admins.
 

Calliecake

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The Wall Street Journal reported today that Guam has issued guidance to prepare its residents for a nuclear war. They showed a newspaper headline that read "14 Minutes" which is how long it will take the missile to reach Guam after North Korea releases it.

And just minutes ago Trump continues the rhetoric .......

Dancing Fire, I certainly wouldn't have acted like Trump has. He has no diplomacy skills whatsoever. Most rational people innately know not to goad an unstable person. I think we all can agree that it has been common knowledge for years than Kim is unstable. I wonder how Trump supporters would feel if they had to spend the next week in Guam?
 

Dancing Fire

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The only thing he can do: leave it alone.

India and Pakistan developed nuclear weapons. No one wanted them to obtain them, either. But what's done is done.

Deb/AGBF
:read:
Thank you Susan Rice...:devil:
 

arkieb1

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I love military strategy, my guess would be that China is going to sit back and let North Korea and the US blow as much of Asia to shreds as they can and then China will move in and take over whatever is left literally after the fallout.... If the US attacks first China might legitimately invade a neighbouring country, or trigger a war with them and possibly Russia as well, we will see.

Australia and the US have asked and put pressure on China to do more via heavy sanctions and restrictions in their dealings with North Korea and so far they have pretty well ignored both, that IMHO is not a good sign either.
 
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AGBF

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Thank you Susan Rice...:devil:


I actually did an Internet search on Susan Rice; India; and Pakistan to see if I could discern the meaning of this posting. My doing that should not have been necessary. Especially since the search did not produce any intelligible results, which means that the three are not tied together by reality as you appear to believe eveyone should "know".


If you post a four word response to someone else's posting, your right of course, it would be helpful to do so only when everyone is likely to know what you mean.

For example, if Trump had just called Jeff Sessions weak and you posted, "Trump did it again", people might understand what you meant.

Susan Rice was not on the national scene when India and Pakistan were developing nuclear weapons and it was not in her capability to keep them from developing them just as no one can now stop North Korea. Anything else you mean to inject into the conversation is diversionary since that was my point.

You appear to throw in names of Democrats just to get a rise out of people. It is not working.

Deb/AGBF
:read:
 
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House Cat

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Thanks so much, Calliecake! I probably have not put on a bathing suit in 20 years, but my husband told me to bring one. It feels cold to me here, so I haven't done so yet. We have a heated pool, but my husband never turns on the heat. (As with the cable TV, he saves money. When I used to live here, if my father was going to use the pool, which he did daily when he visited, I heated the pool for hours before he went in!) The next door neighbors asked me over at 3 PM. They are swimming then and said to bring or wear a swimsuit. All this gorgeous day talk makes me wonder why I am freezing! All these pools...and ours looks like heaven...but I know I will die of the cold if I go in!

First World Problem!


Deb
Deb,

I live in 100 degree heat. I had a pool for 6 years. I maintained it myself with true OCD precision. I swam in that pool exactly 7 times. I am sure the water was over 80 degrees but it was cold to me.

Swimming is an act of torture when the temperature is over 100 degrees outside. Being the cold blooded individual that I am, I would rather bask in the heat.

Did you swim?

~~~~~~~~~~~
Now to the subject at hand...

I need to know, really, I do. Does anyone else's mind go straight to "these f*cking idiots!" Because whenever I hear that Trump or Kim Jong has issued a statement, I am completely befuddled. I see no eloquence. There aren't any calculated moves and counter moves. There are just two man-children spewing bullshit and risking the lives of billions of people in the process.

And why in the hell is this being allowed?

My value system is going haywire because this isn't the way *things are supposed to be!*

I'm going to drink this weekend... It's planned.
 

Bonfire

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On another front, Trump said he is considering possible military action against Venezuela in response to President Maduro's power grab. Trump has already issued sanctions, but military intervention would be quite an escalation at this stage.
 

AGBF

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Did you swim?

Hi, House Cat.

That would depend on your definition of swimming. I did visit my next door neighbors.

I was in a bathing suit and I plunged into the pool, which immediately brought me up to my waist in water that felt cold. The two other women in the pool then told me to grab a "noodle" and immerse myself more. I grabbed a noodle, but never moved from the shallow end (which was waist high) to the deeper area (which was everything else and would have involved actual swimming. I spent at least an hour in the water, socializing, then another hour on the deck (dresed) socializing some more. So I feel I did what I was supposed to do pool-wise.

Thank you for asking!

Deb :wavey:
 

t-c

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@AGBF, what's the "noodle" for?
 

CJ2008

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So I feel I did what I was supposed to do pool-wise.

This is so cute.

I never know how to act at pool parties either.

Can you go and NOT swim (and therefore not get into a bathing suit) - (without people thinking you're really weird?)

So I just never go.

I think you did perfect! You were like a pro. ::)
 

Tekate

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So what do we do?. Give N.K. a few more billions like we did 25 yrs ago so that they can advance their nuke programs?. Iran will be the next N.K. thanks to the Obama admins.

Why will Iran be like North Korea?

I can find nothing on Clinton givine NK billions to advance their nuke programs, can you please post your sources. Thank you.
 

t-c

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According to Republicans...
Why Is Donald Trump Still So Horribly Witless About the World?
by Robin Wright, The New Yorker

Max Boot, a lifelong conservative who advised three Republican Presidential candidates on foreign policy, keeps a folder labelled “Trump Stupidity File” on his computer. It’s next to his “Trump Lies” file. “Not sure which is larger at this point,” he told me this week. “It’s neck-and-neck.”

Six months into the Trump era, foreign-policy officials from eight past Administrations told me they are aghast that the President is still so witless about the world. “He seems as clueless today as he was on January 20th,” Boot, who is now a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, said. Trump’s painful public gaffes, they warn, indicate that he’s not reading, retaining, or listening to his Presidential briefings. And the newbie excuse no longer flies.

“Trump has an appalling ignorance of the current world, of history, of previous American engagement, of what former Presidents thought and did,” Geoffrey Kemp, who worked at the Pentagon during the Ford Administration and at the National Security Council during the Reagan Administration, reflected. “He has an almost studious rejection of the type of in-depth knowledge that virtually all of his predecessors eventually gained or had views on.”

Criticism of Donald Trump among Democrats who served in senior national-security positions is predictable and rife. But Republicans—who are historically ambitious on foreign policy—are particularly pained by the President’s missteps and misstatements. So are former senior intelligence officials who have avoided publicly criticizing Presidents until now.

“The President has little understanding of the context”—of what’s happening in the world—“and even less interest in hearing the people who want to deliver it,” Michael Hayden, a retired four-star general and former director of both the C.I.A. and the National Security Agency, told me. “He’s impatient, decision-oriented, and prone to action. It’s all about the present tense. When he asks, ‘What the hell’s going on in Iraq?’ people around him have learned not to say, ‘Well, in 632 . . . ’ ” (That was the year when the Prophet Muhammad died, prompting the beginning of the Sunni-Shiite split.*)

“He just doesn’t have an interest in the world,” Hayden said.

I asked top Republican and intelligence officials from eight Administrations what they thought was the one thing the President needs to grasp to succeed on the world stage. Their various replies: embrace the fact that the Russians are not America’s friends. Don’t further alienate the Europeans, who are our friends. Encourage human rights—a founding principle of American identity—and don’t make priority visits to governments that curtail them, such as Poland and Saudi Arabia. Understand that North Korea’s nuclear program can’t be outsourced to China, which can’t or won’t singlehandedly fix the problem anyway, and realize that military options are limited. Pulling out of innovative trade deals, like the Trans-Pacific Partnership, will boost China’s economy and secure its global influence—to America’s disadvantage. Stop bullying his counterparts. And put the Russia case behind him by coöperating with the investigation rather than trying to discredit it.

Trump’s latest blunder was made during an appearance in the Rose Garden with Lebanon’s Prime Minister, Saad Hariri, on July 25th. “Lebanon is on the front lines in the fight against ISIS, Al Qaeda, and Hezbollah,” Trump pronounced. He got the basics really wrong. Hezbollah is actually part of the Lebanese government—and has been for a quarter century—with seats in parliament and Cabinet posts. Lebanon’s Christian President, Michel Aoun, has been allied with Hezbollah for a decade. As Trump spoke, Hezbollah’s militia and the Lebanese Army were fighting ISIS and an Al Qaeda affiliate occupying a chunk of eastern Lebanon along its border with Syria. They won.

The list of other Trump blunders is long. In March, he charged that Germany owed “vast sums” to the United States for NATO. It doesn’t. No NATO member pays the United States—and never has—so none is in arrears. In an interview with the Wall Street Journal, in April, Trump claimed that Korea “actually used to be part of China.” Not true. After he arrived in Israel from Saudi Arabia, in May, Trump said that he had just come from the Middle East. (Did he even look at a map?) During his trip to France, in July, the President confused Napoleon Bonaparte, the diminutive emperor who invaded Russia and Egypt, with Napoleon III, who was France’s first popularly elected President, oversaw the design of modern Paris, and is still the longest-serving head of state since the French Revolution (albeit partly as an emperor, too). And that’s before delving into his demeaning tweets about other world leaders and flashpoints.

“The sheer scale of his lack of knowledge is what has astounded me—and I had low expectations to begin with,” David Gordon, the director of the State Department’s policy-planning staff under Condoleezza Rice, during the Bush Administration, told me.

Trump’s White House has also flubbed basics. It misspelled the name of Britain’s Prime Minister three times in its official schedule of her January visit. After it dropped the “H” in Theresa May, several British papers noted that Teresa May is a soft-**** actress best known for her films “Leather Lust” and “Whitehouse: The Sex Video.” In a statement last month, the White House called Xi Jinping the President of the “Republic of China”—which is the island of Taiwan—rather than the leader of the People’s Republic, the Communist mainland. The two nations have been epic rivals in Asia for more than half a century. The White House also misidentified Shinzo Abe as the President of Japan—he’s the Prime Minister—and called the Prime Minister of Canada “Joe” instead of Justin Trudeau.

Trump’s policy mistakes, large and small, are taking a toll. “American leadership in the world—how do I phrase this, it’s so obvious, but apparently not to him—is critical to our success, and it depends eighty per cent on the credibility of the President’s word,” John McLaughlin, who worked at the C.I.A. under seven Presidents, from Richard Nixon to George W. Bush, and ended up as the intelligence agency’s acting director, told me. “Trump thinks having a piece of chocolate cake at Mar-a-Lago bought him a relationship with Xi Jinping. He came in as the least prepared President we’ve had on foreign policy," McLaughlin added. “Our leadership in the world is slipping away. It’s slipping through our hands.”

And a world in dramatic flux compounds the stakes. Hayden cited the meltdown in the world order that has prevailed since the Second World War; the changing nature of the state and its power; China’s growing military and economic power; and rogue nations seeking nuclear weapons, among others. “Yet the most disruptive force in the world today is the United States of America,” the former C.I.A. director said.

The closest similarity to the Trump era was the brief Warren G. Harding Administration, in the nineteen-twenties, Philip Zelikow, who worked for the Reagan and two Bush Administrations, and who was the executive director of the 9/11 Commission, told me. Harding, who died, of a heart attack, after twenty-eight months in office, was praised because he stood aside and let his Secretary of State, Charles Evans Hughes, lead the way. Hughes had already been governor of New York, a Supreme Court Justice, and the Republican Presidential nominee in 1916, losing narrowly to Woodrow Wilson, who preceded Harding.

Under Trump, the White House has seized control of key foreign-policy issues. The President’s son-in-law, Jared Kushner, a real-estate developer, has been charged with brokering Middle East peace, navigating U.S.-China relations, and the Mexico portfolio. In April, Kushner travelled to Iraq to help chart policy against ISIS. Washington scuttlebutt is consumed with tales of how Trump has stymied his own Secretary of State, Rex Tillerson, the former C.E.O. of ExxonMobil.

“The national-security system of the United States has been tested over a period of seventy years,” John Negroponte, the first director of National Intelligence and a former U.N. Ambassador, told me. “President Trump disregards the system at his peril.”

Trump’s contempt for the U.S. intelligence community has also sparked alarm. “I wish the President would rely more on, and trust more, the intelligence agencies and the work that is produced, sometimes at great risk to individuals around the world, to inform the Commander-in-Chief,” Mitchell Reiss, who was the chief of the State Department’s policy-planning team under Secretary of State Colin Powell, told me.

Republican critics are divided on whether Trump can grow into the job. “Trump is completely irredeemable,” Eliot A. Cohen, who was a counsellor to Condoleezza Rice at the State Department, told me. “He has a feral instinct for self-survival, but he’s unteachable. The ban on Muslims coming into the country and building a wall, and having the Mexicans pay for it, that was all you needed to know about this guy on foreign affairs. This is a man who is idiotic and bigoted and ignorant of the law.” Cohen was a ringleader of an open letter warning, during the campaign, that Trump’s foreign policy was “wildly inconsistent and unmoored.”

But other Republicans from earlier Administrations still hold out hope. “Whenever Trump begins to learn about an issue—the Middle East conflict or North Korea—he expresses such surprise that it could be so complicated, after saying it wasn’t that difficult,” Gordon, from the Bush Administration, said. “The good news, when he says that, is it means he has a little bit of knowledge.” So far, however, the learning curve has been pitifully—and dangerously—slow.
 

OreoRosies86

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A Nazi aka "Unite the Right" just rammed their car into a crowd outside the place I worked every day last year. Where are you, Trump?
 

lovedogs

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Don't worry @Elliot86 , he made a BS and rage inducing "statement" about how there is "violence from both sides". Never used the words "White Supremacy, KKK, Nazi", just a complete cop out on his part. He knows perfectly well that these a**holes make up a significant part of his base, so he doesn't want to insult them. He is the freaking worst, and I cannot wait for the day he is out of office.
 

t-c

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Don't worry @Elliot86 , he made a BS and rage inducing "statement" about how there is "violence from both sides". Never used the words "White Supremacy, KKK, Nazi", just a complete cop out on his part. He knows perfectly well that these a**holes make up a significant part of his base, so he doesn't want to insult them. He is the freaking worst, and I cannot wait for the day he is out of office.

David Duke reminded Trump, on Twitter, that it was White Americans who got him elected. This is why Trump's response was so tepid.

I don't know where this country is going, but I feel so strongly that we definitely took a wrong turn with Donald Trump's election.

davidduketweet.jpeg
 

Platinum-blonde

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And those White Americans, that put him in office, are the ones hurting America the most. Trump needs to call what happened today, an act of terrorism. :angryfire:

Today was another horrible step backwards. I fear that the America, I know, and love is gone...:cry2:
 

Calliecake

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@Elliot86 I immediately thought of you when this appeared on the news today. I remember you saying you lived in this area. I am so sorry. Trump had the perfect opportunity to speak out against White Supremacy, KKK and Nazi's and didn't. Trump knows very well these people make up his base. Why is Trump not calling this evil group out by its name. Gov. Terry McAuliffe had no problem calling them out when he spoke. My heart goes out to those in Charlottesville.


@House Cat You are not alone. I use this phrase multiple times a days now. It's like watching two children having a pi&&ing contest.
 

Dancing Fire

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You appear to throw in names of Democrats just to get a rise out of people. It is not working.

Deb/AGBF
:read:
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/s...uclear-weapons-in-north-korea/article/2631128

Deb.
What I'm try to say is that Clinton gave billions to N.K. supposedly in exchange for giving up their nuke programs. Guess what? surprise, surprise:roll2: they screwed us by using our billions to advance their nuke programs, so here we are today. Then Obama gave billions to Iran for basically the same reasons. Guess what the Iranians are doing with our billions?. In the near future we will have to deal with Iran as we are doing with N.K. today.
 

Dancing Fire

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Why will Iran be like North Korea?

I can find nothing on Clinton givine NK billions to advance their nuke programs, can you please post your sources. Thank you.

 

OreoRosies86

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A woman is now dead and many others injured.

Is America great yet, everyone?
 

MollyMalone

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Deb.
What I'm try to say is that Clinton gave billions to N.K. supposedly in exchange for giving up their nuke programs. Guess what? surprise, surprise:roll2: they screwed us by using our billions to advance their nuke programs, so here we are today. Then Obama gave billions to Iran for basically the same reasons. Guess what the Iranians are doing with our billions?. In the near future we will have to deal with Iran as we are doing with N.K. today.
Um no. Clinton did not give billions to North Korea. And instead of a video from JewTube.TV (whatever that is, I didn't click to view it), I'll offer the July 2008 report to Congress on U.S. Assistance to North Korea from the Congressional Research Service.
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RS21834.pdf
You'll see that 60% of the assistance given to DKRP (through Congressional appropriations) during the 13 fiscal years covered by the report (so 7 years of that is the Bush II administration) was humanitarian, food aid -- given largely to the UN's World Food Program -- in the years of the famine in the DKRP and the several years thereafter. The monies shown in the KEDO column of the Table on p. 2 of the CRS Report did not go directly to DPRK; DPRK was never even a member of the Korean Peninsula Economic Development Organization.

The CRS Report gives "snapshots" of KEDO & the 6-Party Talks (2003-2007), but these pages are decent supplements (and not inordinately long) re the Agreed Framework that was the underpinning of KEDO; KEDO itself; and the 6-Party Talks:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agreed_Framework
http://www.kedo.org/au_history.asp
https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/6partytalks
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/12/AR2005071200220.html
 
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Dancing Fire

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arkieb1

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http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/s...uclear-weapons-in-north-korea/article/2631128

Deb.
What I'm try to say is that Clinton gave billions to N.K. supposedly in exchange for giving up their nuke programs. Guess what? surprise, surprise:roll2: they screwed us by using our billions to advance their nuke programs, so here we are today. Then Obama gave billions to Iran for basically the same reasons. Guess what the Iranians are doing with our billions?. In the near future we will have to deal with Iran as we are doing with N.K. today.

Actually DF if we are giving each other a history lesson it was under the Bush administration that North Korea decided to ramp up the need to have a nuclear weapons program, and it was the distrust and broken agreements between the two that arguably led us in a large part to where the regime has gone towards today.

And I, and a number of leading political commentators and historians would argue that Bush and Cheney largely created the conditions that cause the rise if ISIS as well, so given the fact the Bush administration was largely responsible for creating some of todays worst problems ie the GFC, ISIS etc, I'd suggest DF that recent conservative leaders in your country have an even worse geopolitical and national track record than the bleeding heart liberals you seem to so fondly despise.
 
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OreoRosies86

Ideal_Rock
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Dec 25, 2012
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Nope, not till the day we elect a conservative minority as POTUS.

So strange that a person with this many opinions about how things should be run couldn't even be bothered to vote.
 
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