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Home Invasion Suspects Aim Gun at Child-Father Grabs Shotgun

justginger

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Joined
May 11, 2009
Messages
3,712
Re: Home Invasion Suspects Aim Gun at Child-Father Grabs Sho

movie zombie|1403051698|3695369 said:
so, what is the plan of action when someone waves a gun in your child's face?
I'd love an answer from the anti's.....
obviously, the guy is in the house and has a gun in your baby's face...so no time to call 911.
what do you do?
these people were targeted per LE....and, yes, it could happen to you, too: so what is it you plan to do?
not think about it because you're convinced you live in a great neighborhood and things like this happen to other people?
wishful thinking, I fear.

justginger, I'm really glad you love being in WA in AU.
I'm glad the move worked out for you.
but if you were living here right now and you had this situation, just what the heck would you do to protect your child...if you had one, that is.

or does one just accept it and hope that when/if you hand over the requested items they don't blow your kid away? and you?

your choice. not the choice I made after the birth of my daughter.
I genuinely don't know what I would do in the general question. I would likely research the hell out of places that have the lowest incidences of gun violence and up camp to move there. I would not be comfortable using a firearm, nor would I want to run the statistical risk of having one in my house (see percentages of accidental child shootings). In the specific question, what would I do in THAT situation, I'd give them whatever it was they were 'targeting' (pills?) and shut the heck up. Statistically there are more robberies and burglaries than murders, so yes, I would hope for the best. I think the risks of my child accidentally harming themselves or a friend with a gun are higher than being in the above scenario. It's all cost-benefit analysis for me, and I am thankful it is not a calculation I have to do.

What stands out to me is not the acceptance of something bad befalling you unarmed, but the acceptance that this situation were to arise in the first place. Clearly something needs to be done about criminal behaviour (stronger penalties? I don't know) to get things back on track. No PSer should be actively concerned that someone is going to break into their house and hold a gun to an infant's head. It is absurd this is how far it's gone, that this is the accepted reality. :nono:
 

moneymeister

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Joined
Sep 20, 2009
Messages
1,343
Re: Home Invasion Suspects Aim Gun at Child-Father Grabs Sho

I thought this was interesting - Showed up on my Yahoo news app tonight. Looks like the punks have weapons when the law abiding don't own them. So, in Australia, people make their own guns.


http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/bikies-diy-arsenal-pistolpacking-western-sydney-a-handgun-hotspot/story-fni0cx12-1226955331948

USA homicide stats:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8
 

justginger

Ideal_Rock
Joined
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Messages
3,712
Re: Home Invasion Suspects Aim Gun at Child-Father Grabs Sho

moneymeister|1403052468|3695380 said:
I thought this was interesting - Showed up on my Yahoo news app tonight. Looks like the punks have weapons when the law abiding don't own them. So, in Australia, people make their own guns.


http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/bikies-diy-arsenal-pistolpacking-western-sydney-a-handgun-hotspot/story-fni0cx12-1226955331948

USA homicide stats:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8
It states the weapons are crude and often misfire, or explode in the user's hands. :lol: I am a-ok with that.

Furthermore, if you actually get to the meat of the story, there was a multi-day raid on 200 gang members' houses and clubhouses. How many guns seized? 12. Seriously. If that isn't evidence that gun control works, I don't know what is. Additionally, there is a rule amongst the bikie gangs of Australia - civilians are never to be involved in their beef. There was a shooting between gang members at a shopping center on the Gold Coast a couple of years ago and it was a big bloody deal. That broke the rules. The offending shooter was deposited, by his own gang buddies, at the police station.

And I will bow out at this point for fear of things going downhill and being perceived as anti-American. :bigsmile: :wavey:
 

redwood66

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Aug 22, 2012
Messages
6,436
Re: Home Invasion Suspects Aim Gun at Child-Father Grabs Sho

These threads are making me tired. I love a healthy debate but this is just so tiring. I am not anti anyone - well stupid people maybe, and criminals. Having spent all my working life around the absolute worst criminals anyone can imagine makes for quite a jaded redwood. I have no rose colored glasses. In fact I think mine are shit colored.

I cannot wait to get my big bling!!!! Back to SMTB.
 

movie zombie

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Joined
Jan 20, 2005
Messages
11,879
Re: Home Invasion Suspects Aim Gun at Child-Father Grabs Sho

lol, jg, lol!
preparedness is not living in fear.
one day perhaps you and others will understand that.
until then I'm glad you're in AU...........there are enough people still here that have no plan and think I shouldn't either.
oh, and did you know that Perth has a gun range?! in case you change your mind: http://www.lrsc.net.au/
ran out of time when last in Perth but I will get there.
 

Dancing Fire

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Apr 3, 2004
Messages
30,523
Re: Home Invasion Suspects Aim Gun at Child-Father Grabs Sho

TooPatient|1403045549|3695281 said:
amc80|1403037673|3695184 said:
Excellent! It's a pity all of the suspects weren't shot.
:appl: My thoughts exactly.

Good for him! If that is what criminals had to face every time they did something like that, there would be far fewer people trying such things.
Yup :!:
 

TooPatient

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Re: Home Invasion Suspects Aim Gun at Child-Father Grabs Sho

justginger|1403050938|3695357 said:
TooPatient|1403050373|3695351 said:
justginger|1403050096|3695349 said:
redwood66|1403049664|3695342 said:
I can find no link in that article to where the reporter got the data. But they did say it was from the Brady Campaign so I would need to review what they are calling what. The Brady Campaign is just as bad at skewing data to their benefit which has been done by the NRA at times.

ETA who is the WA police dept? Do you mean WSP - Washington State Police? I would never vote for what you say they are suggesting at all.
Here you go, this breaks it down by deaths and injuries, along with the source (the CDC): http://issuu.com/cdfweb/docs/protect_children_not_guns_2013

The WA Police Dept is the law enforcement of Western Australia, so don't worry about fighting the storage regulations. :))
Ah! Okay. Thanks for clarifying.

Interesting thing to note about storage -- MANY gun safes are easy to remove in tact if someone is motivated. Even the large ones.
They should be (at least) bolted in place and a lot of people I know take the securing even more seriously than that. I won't detail, but it is an interesting thing to consider as many people figure that a safe is actually "secure" if installed according to directions.
That's exactly why they must be installed by a professional, and then double checked by the police department. There's no sense in installing something that is non-functional.

The gun regulations here would make your head spin: http://www.police.wa.gov.au/Ourservices/PoliceLicensingServices/Firearms/Licenceinformation/tabid/1902/Default.aspx :lol: I love them. :bigsmile:
The challenge when they require "professional" installations and "approved" items is that you get stuff that is no longer the best available being used because it is required and the better options aren't allowed.

It looks like section 4 of the code you posted goes into fair detail about what is required. It is not bad, but it could be done better. Also, having the exact requirements specified like that means that any motivated person can work out how to remove one (which I'd be willing to bet could be done in under 20 minutes once someone figured out how) and gain access to as many safes as they feel like taking. Once the safe is removed they have all the time in the world to actually get into it.

Allowing people to store stuff in the way they see fit means that a criminal can't know exactly what safe a person has or exactly how it is installed. Or if they have a creation of their own (which make section 4 look like child's play).

People need to be responsible for securing their firearms at ALL times. If they are unsuccessful, they should have to explain why they think they took reasonable precautions and face the possibility of being held responsible for the consequences of failing.
The man who left a handgun under the seat of his car and one of his children found it and accidentally shot the other child should NOT get away with "He lost his child. That is punishment enough." That is BS. A loaded gun sitting around within easy reach of a child (or criminal) is NOT reasonable precautions for safe storage.
 

Rhea

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Joined
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Messages
6,215
Re: Home Invasion Suspects Aim Gun at Child-Father Grabs Sho

movie zombie|1403051698|3695369 said:
so, what is the plan of action when someone waves a gun in your child's face?
I'd love an answer from the anti's.....
obviously, the guy is in the house and has a gun in your baby's face...so no time to call 911.
what do you do?
these people were targeted per LE....and, yes, it could happen to you, too: so what is it you plan to do?
not think about it because you're convinced you live in a great neighborhood and things like this happen to other people?
wishful thinking, I fear.

justginger, I'm really glad you love being in WA in AU.
I'm glad the move worked out for you.
but if you were living here right now and you had this situation, just what the heck would you do to protect your child...if you had one, that is.

or does one just accept it and hope that when/if you hand over the requested items they don't blow your kid away? and you?

your choice. not the choice I made after the birth of my daughter.
I live in the UK where gun laws are some of the strictest in the world. What would I do? Chances are I wouldn't be faced with that situation because of our gun laws. Do some bad guys have gun, yes, but the penalties are so stiff that the percentage of people who have one is very low. Rather than an arm's race where the general public arms themselves because others have we have the opposite. No one is armed. I will never find myself in the situation you describe.

If I do find myself in that situation, I'd give the person whatever it is they want. The chances of my family getting hurt are less if I just move slowly, avoid eye contact, and follow orders. It's the same thing most people would probably do if they didn't happen to have a loaded gun to hand in that situation. Say you're cooking dinner and guy comes in waving a gun around. Your gun is in your handbag in the living room. You don't have time to call emergency services...or even get your gun. What do you do? Do you always have a gun to hand and in every room?
 

momhappy

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Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
4,660
Re: Home Invasion Suspects Aim Gun at Child-Father Grabs Sho

There are all kinds of stories that involve guns saving lives (like the ones that MZ has posted) - sadly, they don't always make the news... As someone who believes in our right to bear arms, I appreciate reading them. However, I don't understand what purpose it serves to continue the dialogue in this type of venue? It's not productive, it goes around and around and the discussion is pretty much the same despite the title of the threads. It gets old. Fast.
 

chrono

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Joined
Apr 22, 2004
Messages
37,039
Re: Home Invasion Suspects Aim Gun at Child-Father Grabs Sho

momhappy|1403096547|3695640 said:
There are all kinds of stories that involve guns saving lives (like the ones that MZ has posted) - sadly, they don't always make the news... As someone who believes in our right to bear arms, I appreciate reading them. However, I don't understand what purpose it serves to continue the dialogue in this type of venue? It's not productive, it goes around and around and the discussion is pretty much the same despite the title of the threads. It gets old. Fast.
Agree with this wholeheartedly.
 

TooPatient

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Premium
Joined
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Messages
8,452
Re: Home Invasion Suspects Aim Gun at Child-Father Grabs Sho

momhappy|1403096547|3695640 said:
There are all kinds of stories that involve guns saving lives (like the ones that MZ has posted) - sadly, they don't always make the news... As someone who believes in our right to bear arms, I appreciate reading them. However, I don't understand what purpose it serves to continue the dialogue in this type of venue? It's not productive, it goes around and around and the discussion is pretty much the same despite the title of the threads. It gets old. Fast.
It does get old, but previous conversations showed that many people aren't aware of how often lives are saved because of someone who is armed and does what has to be done. The only stories many (most?) people hear are the ones that end in the death(s) of innocent. Being aware of the positive side of gun ownership and self defense is an important part of having an informed opinion and educated discussion. People may or may not change their opinions but they at least have additional facts.
 

nkarma

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Joined
Jul 13, 2009
Messages
636
Re: Home Invasion Suspects Aim Gun at Child-Father Grabs Sho

movie zombie|1403054104|3695393 said:
lol, jg, lol!
preparedness is not living in fear.
one day perhaps you and others will understand that.
until then I'm glad you're in AU...........there are enough people still here that have no plan and think I shouldn't either.
oh, and did you know that Perth has a gun range?! in case you change your mind: http://www.lrsc.net.au/
ran out of time when last in Perth but I will get there.
I think (though I don't want to speak for her) what she is saying is that she has no need to be prepared for gun violence, because the statistical likelihood of it happening where she lives is very very minute.

It's like constructing buildings rated for seismic activity that are thousands of miles from faults. Though gun violence is controllable unlike earthquakes.
 

nkarma

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Joined
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Messages
636
Re: Home Invasion Suspects Aim Gun at Child-Father Grabs Sho

TooPatient|1403097840|3695654 said:
momhappy|1403096547|3695640 said:
There are all kinds of stories that involve guns saving lives (like the ones that MZ has posted) - sadly, they don't always make the news... As someone who believes in our right to bear arms, I appreciate reading them. However, I don't understand what purpose it serves to continue the dialogue in this type of venue? It's not productive, it goes around and around and the discussion is pretty much the same despite the title of the threads. It gets old. Fast.
It does get old, but previous conversations showed that many people aren't aware of how often lives are saved because of someone who is armed and does what has to be done. The only stories many (most?) people hear are the ones that end in the death(s) of innocent. Being aware of the positive side of gun ownership and self defense is an important part of having an informed opinion and educated discussion. People may or may not change their opinions but they at least have additional facts.
In general, my opinions have not changed with these stories because it is usually someone defending themselves against someone else that with a gun. The gun violence deaths in the US are still astronomical and the likelihood that someone in my home would be harmed if I owned a gun is still true.

I do however get a lot more perspective on the range of opinions on guns and why they are or are not needed. Haven't seen anyone change their mind on here though. I also have really appreciated the international perspective from people in countries with differing gun laws, I have learned a lot from their experiences.
 

momhappy

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Messages
4,660
Re: Home Invasion Suspects Aim Gun at Child-Father Grabs Sho

TooPatient|1403097840|3695654 said:
momhappy|1403096547|3695640 said:
There are all kinds of stories that involve guns saving lives (like the ones that MZ has posted) - sadly, they don't always make the news... As someone who believes in our right to bear arms, I appreciate reading them. However, I don't understand what purpose it serves to continue the dialogue in this type of venue? It's not productive, it goes around and around and the discussion is pretty much the same despite the title of the threads. It gets old. Fast.
It does get old, but previous conversations showed that many people aren't aware of how often lives are saved because of someone who is armed and does what has to be done. The only stories many (most?) people hear are the ones that end in the death(s) of innocent. Being aware of the positive side of gun ownership and self defense is an important part of having an informed opinion and educated discussion. People may or may not change their opinions but they at least have additional facts.
I suppose, but I think you're fooling yourself if you believe that people aren't aware that guns can save lives too just because those aren't the stories that make the news. Posting warm & fuzzy stories about how a responsible gun owner beat the "bad guy" isn't going to change the opinions of an anti-gun advocate. The members posting in these threads (myself included) post the same thoughts/opinions in different threads. It's just not productive IMO and serves no purpose. This is a highly emotionally-charged topic and often times, people aren't forming opinions based on facts. I don't want to hear anti-gun facts any more than an anti-gun advocate wants to hear pro-gun facts and I don't consider it my job to try to change someone's mind/opinion about guns & gun ownership.
 

aljdewey

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Joined
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Messages
9,143
Re: Home Invasion Suspects Aim Gun at Child-Father Grabs Sho

momhappy|1403107163|3695755 said:
TooPatient|1403097840|3695654 said:
momhappy|1403096547|3695640 said:
There are all kinds of stories that involve guns saving lives (like the ones that MZ has posted) - sadly, they don't always make the news... As someone who believes in our right to bear arms, I appreciate reading them. However, I don't understand what purpose it serves to continue the dialogue in this type of venue? It's not productive, it goes around and around and the discussion is pretty much the same despite the title of the threads. It gets old. Fast.
It does get old, but previous conversations showed that many people aren't aware of how often lives are saved because of someone who is armed and does what has to be done. The only stories many (most?) people hear are the ones that end in the death(s) of innocent. Being aware of the positive side of gun ownership and self defense is an important part of having an informed opinion and educated discussion. People may or may not change their opinions but they at least have additional facts.
I suppose, but I think you're fooling yourself if you believe that people aren't aware that guns can save lives too just because those aren't the stories that make the news. Posting warm & fuzzy stories about how a responsible gun owner beat the "bad guy" isn't going to change the opinions of an anti-gun advocate. The members posting in these threads (myself included) post the same thoughts/opinions in different threads. It's just not productive IMO and serves no purpose. This is a highly emotionally-charged topic and often times, people aren't forming opinions based on facts. I don't want to hear anti-gun facts any more than an anti-gun advocate wants to hear pro-gun facts and I don't consider it my job to try to change someone's mind/opinion about guns & gun ownership.
The fact that people do continue contributing to these threads tells me that some people DO believe in the value on ongoing discussion. Those are you who find no value and feel the discussion is old are more than free to bow out any time; no one is forcing your participation.
 

Laila619

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
11,538
Re: Home Invasion Suspects Aim Gun at Child-Father Grabs Sho

Rhea|1403082638|3695569 said:
movie zombie|1403051698|3695369 said:
so, what is the plan of action when someone waves a gun in your child's face?
I'd love an answer from the anti's.....
obviously, the guy is in the house and has a gun in your baby's face...so no time to call 911.
what do you do?
these people were targeted per LE....and, yes, it could happen to you, too: so what is it you plan to do?
not think about it because you're convinced you live in a great neighborhood and things like this happen to other people?
wishful thinking, I fear.

justginger, I'm really glad you love being in WA in AU.
I'm glad the move worked out for you.
but if you were living here right now and you had this situation, just what the heck would you do to protect your child...if you had one, that is.

or does one just accept it and hope that when/if you hand over the requested items they don't blow your kid away? and you?

your choice. not the choice I made after the birth of my daughter.
I live in the UK where gun laws are some of the strictest in the world. What would I do? Chances are I wouldn't be faced with that situation because of our gun laws. Do some bad guys have gun, yes, but the penalties are so stiff that the percentage of people who have one is very low. Rather than an arm's race where the general public arms themselves because others have we have the opposite. No one is armed. I will never find myself in the situation you describe.

If I do find myself in that situation, I'd give the person whatever it is they want. The chances of my family getting hurt are less if I just move slowly, avoid eye contact, and follow orders. It's the same thing most people would probably do if they didn't happen to have a loaded gun to hand in that situation. Say you're cooking dinner and guy comes in waving a gun around. Your gun is in your handbag in the living room. You don't have time to call emergency services...or even get your gun. What do you do? Do you always have a gun to hand and in every room?
Exactly. I have two small kids. What can I do, keep a loaded gun sitting on the coffee table, ready for a potential intruder? I can't exactly tell the intruder "wait here while I go to my locked gun safe and get my weapon."
 

momhappy

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
4,660
Re: Home Invasion Suspects Aim Gun at Child-Father Grabs Sho

aljdewey|1403108138|3695771 said:
momhappy|1403107163|3695755 said:
TooPatient|1403097840|3695654 said:
momhappy|1403096547|3695640 said:
There are all kinds of stories that involve guns saving lives (like the ones that MZ has posted) - sadly, they don't always make the news... As someone who believes in our right to bear arms, I appreciate reading them. However, I don't understand what purpose it serves to continue the dialogue in this type of venue? It's not productive, it goes around and around and the discussion is pretty much the same despite the title of the threads. It gets old. Fast.
It does get old, but previous conversations showed that many people aren't aware of how often lives are saved because of someone who is armed and does what has to be done. The only stories many (most?) people hear are the ones that end in the death(s) of innocent. Being aware of the positive side of gun ownership and self defense is an important part of having an informed opinion and educated discussion. People may or may not change their opinions but they at least have additional facts.
I suppose, but I think you're fooling yourself if you believe that people aren't aware that guns can save lives too just because those aren't the stories that make the news. Posting warm & fuzzy stories about how a responsible gun owner beat the "bad guy" isn't going to change the opinions of an anti-gun advocate. The members posting in these threads (myself included) post the same thoughts/opinions in different threads. It's just not productive IMO and serves no purpose. This is a highly emotionally-charged topic and often times, people aren't forming opinions based on facts. I don't want to hear anti-gun facts any more than an anti-gun advocate wants to hear pro-gun facts and I don't consider it my job to try to change someone's mind/opinion about guns & gun ownership.
The fact that people do continue contributing to these threads tells me that some people DO believe in the value on ongoing discussion. Those are you who find no value and feel the discussion is old are more than free to bow out any time; no one is forcing your participation.
I know I'm not being forced to participate - I have even contributed to the debate before I realized that it just wasn't productive (at least for me, personally). I actually do appreciate the stories that MZ posted because I am pro-gun. I guess my point was just that it seemed redundant to start another thread on the same topic when many such threads already exist. I guess no harm done and people can participate as they see fit :)) I think I'll go back to threads with diamonds for a while ;-)
 

Maria D

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Re: Home Invasion Suspects Aim Gun at Child-Father Grabs Sho

Laila619|1403111131|3695808 said:
**snipped a bunch**

Exactly. I have two small kids. What can I do, keep a loaded gun sitting on the coffee table, ready for a potential intruder? I can't exactly tell the intruder "wait here while I go to my locked gun safe and get my weapon."
Also (to MovieZombie) what about when the kids are in school? Unless you homeschool, after the age of 5 they'll be spending a ton of time away from your watchful eye and trusty gun. School shootings are rare, but so are home invasions.
 

movie zombie

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Messages
11,879
Re: Home Invasion Suspects Aim Gun at Child-Father Grabs Sho

each person makes their own decision.
repeating myself again: don't want a gun, don't get one.
you and only you can make the decision if you will protect yourself and/or your family and how and with what tool/s.
just do not presume to tell anyone else what tool they may or may not use, thank you.
and if it is ok to post in this forum re school shootings I do not understand why anyone would object to threads re instances in which a shooting was legal and in self-defense.
 

packrat

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Re: Home Invasion Suspects Aim Gun at Child-Father Grabs Sho

Because it doesn't cause the *instant heart stopping* reaction. It's not news.
 

movie zombie

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Re: Home Invasion Suspects Aim Gun at Child-Father Grabs Sho

packrat, i think you're right: national media certainly isn't reporting this home invasion stopped by a father/husband with a pistol just this week:

[http://www.valdostadailytimes.com/local/x1396893474/Man-shoots-home-invaders/url] "A 56-year-old woman and her 15-year-old son were in the front of the house when the men broke through the door and demanded money. The 59-year-old husband/father was in the back of the house, according to reports. At some point during the burglary, the son was shot in the leg by one of the offenders. The mother attempted to flee to the back of the house and was shot in the arm, said Childress. After hearing the commotion and gunfire, the father walked to the front room of the house with a handgun and shot both burglars multiple times. The men fled on foot, according to reports."
 

packrat

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Re: Home Invasion Suspects Aim Gun at Child-Father Grabs Sho

I believe it. It's just like other touchy topics. What makes better headlines and makes people *everywhere* clench up inside?

Pit bull rips 2 year olds face off! Dog turns of family that loved him and mauls baby! Devil dog snaps!

OR

200 pit bulls seized in dog fighting ring. Battered and bloodied and broken dogs lick rescuers faces as they're loaded for transport. Family pit bull attacks intruder, saves family.
 

msop04

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9,399
Re: Home Invasion Suspects Aim Gun at Child-Father Grabs Sho

packrat said:
I believe it. It's just like other touchy topics. What makes better headlines and makes people *everywhere* clench up inside?

Pit bull rips 2 year olds face off! Dog turns of family that loved him and mauls baby! Devil dog snaps!

OR

200 pit bulls seized in dog fighting ring. Battered and bloodied and broken dogs lick rescuers faces as they're loaded for transport. Family pit bull attacks intruder, saves family.
Amen.
 
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