Green or Blue?

[kenny]

I have some books on colored diamonds, but not Stephen Hofer's. For people collecting expensive fancy colored diamonds, it's probably a must have in their library and I should get it. I have been contemplating getting it. Kenny, you are really doing your homework, I am very impressed with your ability to use your head over your heart.

I suspect that the brown stains are the "proof" that the GIA has deemed this as natural in color. It's too bad we have to research these reasons and they're not explicitly on the report.

Well I suspect most buyers draw adequate comfort from things like integrity and trust in organizations than on technical understanding.
Perhaps the more a person is able to understand the technical side, the less they will depend on trust.

 

[kenny]

With credit to Stephen C. Hofner's glossary, here is more for the geeks among us interesting in the problem of determining color origin in green diamonds:

This post is about Artificial Radiation Stains.
The next post will be about Natural Radiation Stains.

 

[kenny]

Now Natural Radiation Stains.

 

[dkodner]

Hi Kenny,

The ideal customer is the one that both trusts, and has the interest and ability to learn the technical side as well. The combination of both makes for the best relationship, IMHO.

Personally I think both diamonds are beautiful, and really comes down to your taste and desire more so than which one is a better deal. From just looking at pictures, I tend to think like everyone else, and I would choose the green. It looks to have more "life" than the blue in the pictures.

BUT, you have to remember, these pictures are taken under ideal lighting so they look the best. Those diamonds will not look like the picture, depending on the light you are in when you open the package, to lighting in your house, the stones will rarely look exactly like the pictures you see. That being said, you might find that the blue diamond is simply not photogenic, and the green is, so it looks livelier in the pictures. I know, there is not an easy solution to that problem because you want to try and choose without having them in hand, but that is the reality when looking at colored diamonds in pictures. Also, I'm not a cut expert, but I do not believe the green would be considered an old mine cut. Looks much too symmetrical, looks more like a transitional cut to my eyes, but someone else can probably tell you more abut that.

The question TL brings up is very valid, and unless I see the rough myself, I am always concerned with it's origin. Actually, even if I see the rough, it does not guarantee that it has not been tampered with. There are very sophisticated crooks out there, more so than most of us would give them credit for. I doubt by the apparent age of the stone that the GIA saw this rough before it was cut. ** a side note, the reason you would have it inspected by them several times throughout the cutting process, is that the color will change as it is being cut. Not only is it good to see that you have not messed with the stone, but you can also (the cutter) get a better idea of how they would grade it in its present state, and how you could change the angles to make it better. ** To see the skin of the rough on the girdle helps, and so do the brown patches, but both can still be replicated. For most pure green diamonds, the radiation penetrates only a small way into the crystal. Leaving the skin helps show more color in the cut gem, and sometimes is the only thing making it appear green. I think the spots you see on the girdle is skin of the diamond. There is no easy answer for verifying it's origin. The GIA must have felt comfortable if they gave it that grade, but as great as the GIA is, they do make mistakes.

I would suggest that if you buy either diamond, or even before if they will allow it, I would have it graded and a report done by someone like Stephen Hofer. He can give you a much better idea of the level of saturation of the color, and how it compares to others that are out there, and can confirm his belief of whether the color is natural or not. On a diamond as expensive as this, I think it would be well worth the effort to have that done.
It is great you are reading Hofers book, it is worth the price. I have one copy on the coffee table, and one that I use like a textbook, with my notes and highliter and such. If you can find a copy of Gems and Gemology In review "Colored Diamonds", that would also be an amazing read, with more information than you want to know...

I hope you choose one and get to enjoy it for many years to come.

 

[Arkteia]

Of course green. It was my first thougth when I saw the pictures - green is full of light, and blue is just a blue pit.

 

[Burberrygirl]

I prefer the green for a variety of reasons:
1. Better (more attractive to my eye) tone and colour than the blue, which is overly dark.
2. Better cutting which will show off a lot of fire
3. Again, related to the cut, I love the OEC style cut design
4. I know the cert mentions some brown, but if it cannot be seen face up, will it be priced a little lower because of that “fault”?
5. Based on the latest info, does this mean that this particular round was checked by GIA before the cutting process was completed?

Note about requesting a new cert:
My understanding is that for greens (and some other coloured diamonds), the most accurate way to find out if it has been irradiated is to send it to the lab when still in its rough state. Therefore, I don’t understand the purpose of resending the cut stone to GIA for reconfirmation. Perhaps someone can explain to me the reason since from what I’ve read, it is extremely difficult to detect if a cut green diamond is a natural or nuked.

I'm just going to ditto Chrono because I completely agree and I couldn't say it better myself. I absolutely love the color and the cut is to die for!

 

[kenny]

did you see the 2.36 carat natural fancy intense green cusion cut? WoW!

Yes, here it is:

http://www.fancydiamonds.net/view_diamonds/3667.htm

I know we are not supposed to judge color by pics but below is this $550,000 Fancy Intense Green next to the $33,800.
GIA gave both the exact same color, clarity, polish and symmetry grades.
But didn't Itzik state that within a GIA fancy color grade fancydiamonds.net breaks it up into 10 subgrades?

Same process on my computer to both vendor pics.

Whassup with dat?

 

[T L]

David,
I couldn't agree more that Stephen Hofer should have a look at this gem. If I were interested in buying a green, I would have the world's aficionado on colored diamonds looking at it.

 

[kenny]

Also you will always have on Greens stone a "Natural", a small unpolished part on the stone; this is left especially for GIA so they will be able to make their exams on on the stone to determine the origin.
Itzik

Thaks Itzik.

This is an important detail that I have never seen anyone mention here on Pricescope.
This is what I suspected and it does address the concern mentioned here about the stone not being graded prior to polishing.

 

[kenny]

David,
I couldn't agree more that Stephen Hofer should have a look at this gem. If I were interested in buying a green, I would have the world's aficionado on colored diamonds looking at it.

I concur but does not Mr. Hofer not state in his book quoted above that the ultimate tests are conducted at the reputable labs.
Does he even have the $$$ equipment that GIA has for this particular battery of tests?
His own book does not say, "GIA is not reputable as I am so send the greens to me".
He says send them too the best labs.

As we have discussed, Green is unique.

But I have noticed the snazzyiest colored DO have a Hofer report in addition to the Lab Report.
Perhaps this is a nod to the nature of this market and its need for warm fuzzies.

 

[T L]

David,
I couldn't agree more that Stephen Hofer should have a look at this gem. If I were interested in buying a green, I would have the world's aficionado on colored diamonds looking at it.

I concur but does not Mr. Hofer not state in his book quoted above that the ultimate tests are conducted at the reputable labs.
Does he even have the $$$ equipment that GIA has for this particular battery of tests?
His own book does not say, "GIA is not reputable as I am so send the greens to me".
He says send them too the best labs.

As we have discussed, Green is unique.

But I have notices the snazzyiest colored DO have a Hofer report in addition to the Lab Report.
Perhaps this is a nod to the nature of this market and its need for warm fuzzies.

His reports accompany lab reports. He has seen so many colored diamonds in his career that even with microscopic capabilities (I'm unsure what equipment he uses), he might see something that looks suspect, just like the photos above in his book, that are supposedly real naturals, or suspect color. I must admit, even though I have no way of proving it, the color of the 2.46 carat diamond on the right looks to be more consistent with what I've seen for natural color for a green. The one you're looking at is far too intensely saturated, especially for such a tiny gem. However, it could very well be natural color. Stephen Hofer has seen them all, and he is in a far better position to see something suspect than someone like myself or even the regular GIA graduate gemologist evaluating a colored diamond. Yes, it's like the Pope blessing your GIA report I guess, but it would really make me feel more confident, especially when spending so much.

Evidently, his skills serve a valuable purpose to colored diamond aficionados who are also not all warm and fuzzy about the GIA report alone. You see, colored diamonds are probably the most valuable thing on earth for their weight. As David said, there are a lot of sophisticated crooks out there. They are always trying to give the GIA a run for it's money and deceive. There is a lot of money to be made by forging colored diamonds. This is in no way a bad commentary of Leibish which is a fine upstanding company, but I as I always say, "buyer beware," especially with such high priced ticket items.

 

[kenny]

I must admit, even though I have no way of proving it, the color of the 2.46 carat diamond on the right looks to be more consistent with what I've seen for natural color for a green. The one you're looking at is far too intensely saturated, especially for such a tiny gem. .

Well if strong saturation is suspect in stones smaller than 2 ct then this 1.14 ct must be a fake too.

http://www.fancycolordiamond.net/search/fancy_colored_diamond_details.cfm?id=6087DG

You do introduce a new question though.
I have read here that with white diamonds if you place a half-carat GIA H next to a 3 ct GIA H the 3 ct will show more body color.
GIA's color grades allow more color when the material is thicker.
Many people are under the impressions that all Hs look the same color regardless of carat weight.

Does that apply to Fancy colors too?
IOW (even setting aside for the moment Itzik saying he splits up one GIA color grade into 10 sub-grades) will a 3 ct mid-grade Fancy Intense Green have similar color intensity to a 0.5 ct mid-grade Fancy Intense Green, or will it have straonger color when they are put side by side?

Actually I suspect this little 26 point round just came from some killer green rough to achieve Fancy Intense in such a small stone, especially in round cut which does not keep the light bouncing around so many times like a radiant to further strengthen the color.
I think it is a very very extraordinary diamond.

 

[T L]

The diamond in the photo you're showing still shows a grey mask, and although some artificially enhanced diamonds also show some grey, the small quarter carat is more saturated, it shows no grey to my eye, and that's what makes it suspect to ME, but I'm not Stephen Hofer. Having seen books on colored diamonds and many in person, that is how I judge. I have never ever seen a natural diamond with such intense minty green color, but they could exist. For example, there are HPHT diamonds that are a neon yellowish green and look like kryptonite, and yet, one natural color one exists with the same color. It is a great rarity of nature. While green diamonds are rarities themselves, that little mnty green could also be a rarity among greens.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Hand down the green. Not only is the color simply amazing, but the cut is fantastic as well!

 

[kenny]

Yeah, if that minty vibrant green IS natural, and I strongly suspect it is, I think it is a truly exceptional gem.
And the cut is just icing on a cake that was sweet enough already.

It is tiny but that's all I can afford.
I'd rather have that 2-ct Tiffany Emerald-cut green Honker.

Too bad diamonds in a pretty green shade are so far a few between..

 

[T L]

Yeah, if that minty vibrant green IS natural, and I strongly suspect it is, I think it is a truly exceptional gem.
And the cut is just icing on a cake that didn't need it.

It is tiny but that's all I can afford.
I'd rather have that 2-ct Tiffany Emerald-cut green Honker.

Too bad diamonds in a pretty green shade are so far a few between..

So if it is natural in color, the price seems pretty reasonable to me (again, who am I?? ). However, as David indicated, the saturation may not be as it seems from the photo. Someone like Stephen Hofer would really be able to properly judge the color.

Kenny,
Green diamonds are my favorite colored gem in the world. Whenever one of those threads comes up on what would you want if you had all the money in the world, my first choice always is a natural color green diamond. I envy you.

 

[kenny]

I envy you.

Now Now.
You know what color envy is, don't you?

 

[soberguy]

I've purchased three Diamonds from them, and they were all better in real life. Just my observation.
Mr Hofer is a brilliant man, and very friendly. They have a peronal relationship with him, and I'm sure they would be more than happy to send the diamond to him and let him have a look at it.

 

[dkodner]

Yeah, if that minty vibrant green IS natural, and I strongly suspect it is, I think it is a truly exceptional gem.

I agree, that last picture is a stunning gem....

One of the reasons I like the Hofer reports is that he uses a Rennilson-Hale Gemstone Colorimeter to measure the hue, lightness and saturation of the gem. Also, like TL said, he has seen and graded some of the most important diamonds in the world, and thousands of others that are here for the rest of us, so you get ability to know where your stone falls in comparison to all kinds of other examples of say green diamonds. The GIA color grading system is similar to white diamonds in that it uses comparison stones to grade colored diamonds. They use master stones to decide the color and saturation. They have the largest library to make accurate descriptions, and they do a great job, but personally I want to see the numbers too. I want to know where the diamonds plots in 3D color space. What you don't get in the GIA report is where that stones falls in say Itzihk's 10 sub grades. I think it would be much better for the consumer to know from a report whether you're looking at the top end of intensity, or the low end. I am attaching a pdf portion of a Hofer report on a Violet so you can see what I'm talking about.

TL- I hope there is a green diamond in your future. If there is fairness in the world, anyone as passionate as you about gemstones certainly deserves one...

Kenny- I say go for it. That little green will be much more fun in your hands than on the computer screen...

It won't let me attach a pdf. I was going to show you 8 pages, but it looks like I can only attach an image. Does anyone have an idea how to post share this ??

 

[kenny]

You can do a few screen captures.

If you have a mac hold down the Command and the Shift key then press 4.
The cursor will turn into a target thingie.
Position it on one corner, press and hold while you drag to the opposite corner.
When you let go a png file of it will be placed on your desktop.

If you have a PC . . . go buy a mac.

I'd like to see a Hofer colored diamond report.
I've heard about them but never saw one.
Some of the ultra fancy rocks on fancydiamonds.net have them.

 

[soberguy]

Here is my natural fancy grayish yellowish green. The closest I will get to a solitaire sized green diamond at this point. Despite it's many flaws, it is a nice green diamond that really has some flash!

 

[dkodner]

Soberguy- that's a beautiful gem...thanks for sharing it...

Hey...that's my line....

Awesome! Kenny, thanks for that trick......I've had an Apple for 28 years and I didn't know how to do that....lol....

 

[dkodner]

 

[dkodner]

 

[dkodner]

 

[kenny]

Here is my natural fancy grayish yellowish green. The closest I will get to a solitaire sized green diamond at this point. Despite it's many flaws, it is a nice green diamond that really has some flash!

Oh good a colored-diamond owner to pick the brain of.

Pretty stone you have there.
When you have it in spotlighting is the performance and fire just the same as a white diamond, or are all the colors shifted towards the body color of your diamond?

I am suspecting the later since fire flashes are so bright and our diamonds are so small, unless you got one of them 50 ct honkers there.

 

[dkodner]

 

[dkodner]

 

[dkodner]

 

[dkodner]