Green or Blue?

[kenny]

Your newest set of photos is much lighter in tone. Did the photos get color corrected?

I did not modify any pics.

The first composite pic was created on the desktop of my mac by dragging fancydiamond.net's pics to my desktop.
Then I opend all four pics and placed them next to each other.
Then I did a screen capture to create the composite of all four.

I did no modification of images whatsoever.

Then for the later (washed-out) pics, I again dragged fancydiamond.net's pics onto my desktop but, since I was only posting single pics, I did not do the screen-capture step.
So maybe there is something about mac's screen-capture process that messes with the color.

Perhaps it's best to go directly to fancydiamonds.net to see the source of my pics.

BTW I have noticed PS washes out some of the pics I post, and have never been able to figure out why.

 

[Nashville]

You could send it to all 3

 

[T L]

I think those prices are fair for such colors, and of course, the green is graded by the fact that there is a radiation stain, but is it a natural radiation stain? You have to place your trust in the GIA report although such treatment is often difficult to detect since artificially color enhanced green diamonds are also irradiated to produce that color. The GIA report is really the object giving that stone so much value. We had this conversation before, so it's up to you whether you want to buy the gem based on the opinion of the lab report. Do you have more information about the green, is it an "old stone?" Was it graded prior to cutting the rough?

Tiffany & Co had an emerald cut green diamond about two carat in a plain solitaire ring,. It was a similar color to the green diamond you're showing, not as saturated though, and it was $2 million if I remember correctly. I wish I could find a more recent article on how the GIA detects the color of natural greens. . Sorry, but I'm the eternal skeptic.

Read this article from the third paragraph down.
http://www.modernjeweler.com/online/article.jsp?siteSection=2&id=267&pageNum=2

If you can't trust GIA who CAN you trust?
Now you got me worried.

If Itzik is reading this, can you address this?
How can anyone, including myself (let alone the buyer of that $2-million dollar Tiffany green), buy a green diamond with peace of mind?
If irradiated the value of this quarter-carat round would drop about $33,000.
Is it really possible that $2-million Tiffany and this little round may have green color NOT of natural origin?

GIA's report clearly states that the color is of natural origin.
It does not say, maybe or probably.
I just have a hard time believing GIA would put their name and reputation on the line when so much money is at stake.
Imagine the lawsuits.

Is there a higher authority on the origin of diamond color than GIA? - Perhaps AGS or AGL?
Do they have better equipment than GIA or just have higher standards?

GIA can make mistakes, they have in the past, and no lab on earth is perfect. I think you can trust them for the most part. I guess what I struggle with, and maybe my fears are unjustified because I cannot find enough scientific information about this on the net, but how do they determine a natural green from an artificially enhanced one, and in this particular case. Maybe a second lab report, like a second opinion, is necessary if those labs are even equipped to make the determination.

The fact of the matter is that we are not talking about a little bit of money, or a colorless diamond, or one that is easily detectible as natural in color, but one that sometimes takes months to determine authenticity of color. I just want to put that in your head so you know the right questions to ask. Perhaps ask Itzak on the side about the origins of this stone to put your mind to rest a bit. Since you are looking at greens, you are taking more of a risk than with another color diamond, like blue, pink or yellow. I know, I'm a party pooper, but it's a consumer forum and I want to make sure all bases are covered.

I would love to discuss the science behind green diamonds in another thread (as to not hijack this one) if any colored diamond vendors, including Itzak, are up to it.

 

[marcy]

Green!

 

[kenny]

TL, here is proof you were right.
Above is a screen capture of my monitor with two windows open at the same time, live.
The left window is PS.
The right one is fancydiamonds.net
They look the same to me here.

Below is the same screen capture after scrolling down in my PS thread so on the left you see the image that TL said was washed out.
I agree, and I have no clue why that happenes.



I complained about this same issue months ago when I was posting my Octavia pics.
On PS they looked so washed out compared to the originals.
Admin said they could not detect it.
Perhaps I should have presented this screen-capture evidence.

TL, you have good eyes.

 

[Art Nouveau]

Love the green one, but I have no clue what's a fair price.

AN

 

[T L]

Kenny,
David (Dkodner) gives some very good advice about green diamonds in this Pricescope thread. Moh 10 also gives some interesting links and other info.
https://www.pricescope.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=103099

 

[CharmyPoo]

Holy .. I love the cutting on that green diamond. Gosh .. it's so dreamy.

 

[artdecogirl]

Kenny, Go green.

 

[soberguy]

I have a theory... If Harry Winston, Sotheby's, and Christie's all trust GIA, I think for a stone this small, you can trust them too. I like the green also. Natural fancy green is extremely uncommon.

 

[soberguy]

did you see the 2.36 carat natural fancy intense green cusion cut? WoW!

 

[T L]

Soberguy,
Don't get me wrong. I definitely trust GIA, especially for blues, pinks, yellows and other colored diamonds. I struggle trusting verification with green diamonds, that's the exception. For me, it is because I don't understand/know all the science behind how they can tell a natural green from an artificially enhanced one.

I've read over and over again how difficult it is to determine a natural green from an artificially enhanced one. For example, the trace element of boron is known to cause the color in blue diamonds. Irradiated blues are very easy to tell apart from natural blues, and synthetic blues have growth lines that are detectible by the expensive machine that the GIA owns, but greens, well, that's a whole other ball of wax. I've heard that time and time again in the trade and from other vendors, so it's not just my concern.

 

[packrat]

I've been back to look at the green a million times now. I think I'd like to make out with it.

 

[kenny]

I've been back to look at the green a million times now. I think I'd like to make out with it.

What is it about women and the diamonds I pick?
When I got the Octavia I got 5 marriage proposals, diamond-babysitting offers, gradmas offering to be adopted by me and even a carful of chickens.
A few women admitted wanting to lick it.

 

[baby nurse]

The blue really does look bland beside the green. That shade of green is gorgeous and I love the faceting

 

[slg47]

this green is beautiful

 

[Leibish & Co.]

I think those prices are fair for such colors, and of course, the green is graded by the fact that there is a radiation stain, but is it a natural radiation stain? You have to place your trust in the GIA report although such treatment is often difficult to detect since artificially color enhanced green diamonds are also irradiated to produce that color. The GIA report is really the object giving that stone so much value. We had this conversation before, so it's up to you whether you want to buy the gem based on the opinion of the lab report. Do you have more information about the green, is it an "old stone?" Was it graded prior to cutting the rough?

Tiffany & Co had an emerald cut green diamond about two carat in a plain solitaire ring,. It was a similar color to the green diamond you're showing, not as saturated though, and it was $2 million if I remember correctly. I wish I could find a more recent article on how the GIA detects the color of natural greens. . Sorry, but I'm the eternal skeptic.

Read this article from the third paragraph down.
http://www.modernjeweler.com/online/article.jsp?siteSection=2&id=267&pageNum=2

If you can't trust GIA who CAN you trust?
Now you got me worried.

If Itzik is reading this, can you address this?
How can anyone, including myself (let alone the buyer of that $2-million dollar Tiffany green), buy a green diamond with peace of mind?
If irradiated the value of this quarter-carat round would drop about $33,000.
I sure hope GIA doesn't get a new, more accurate, analysis method that causes that to happen after I buy it.

Is it really possible that $2-million Tiffany and this little round may have green color NOT of natural origin?

GIA's report clearly states that the color is of natural origin.
It does not say, maybe or probably.
I just have a hard time believing GIA would put their name and reputation on the line when so much money is at stake.
Imagine the lawsuits.

Is there a higher authority on the origin of diamond color than GIA? - Perhaps AGS or AGL?
If so, do they have better/newer equipment than GIA or just higher standards?

Kenny,
Green stone are being examined very strictly by GIA before they get "Natural" origin, it is a known issue Green is a problematic color, and many of the Green stones origin are indeed suspected to be irradiated in some way.
GIA examine the stone and can give one of the following Grading:
1) Origin "Natural" which means the stone was checked according to GIA exams and was found 100% Natural color.
2) If GIA can't determine whether or not the origin is indeed Natural or not, they give the stone the term "undetermined"(Not necessary treated but they fill as if they can't determine whether it's 10% Natural or not)
3) In case they know the stone was irradiated for sure, the certificate will say "This diamond has been artificially irradiated to change its color"
Usually Green stones are being sent before they are fully polished (still partially as rough) to GIA, so GIA will determine the origin, and it is sent back and forth al through the polish procedure for GIA approvals (not like regular stone which are sent only after they are finished their polish).
Also you will always have on Greens stone a "Natural", a small unpolished part on the stone; this is left especially for GIA so they will be able to make their exams on on the stone to determine the origin.
If a stone Received "Natural" origin from GIA it means the stone is Natural, GIA are the highest and most respectable Grading institute that exist in the Gemological industry, and they give Natural so easy in the Green stones family...
Never the less, if one is afraid a certain treatment was made to the stone between the date the cert was issued and the current date, it is acceptable to ask the vendor for a new certificate if one feels uncomfortable about a stone or about the source, it's completely understood the need to fill 100% comfortable with the purchase (I assume a new cert for a stone of size and value will be at the area of 200$).
We do it as well in certain cases before we buy goods for our inventory, if we think the color doesn't match the certificate, or if we bought a stone uncertified, we buy it with a condition of its Natural origin and that it was not treated or enhanced in anyway(same condition we provide the stone we sell).

Itzik

 

[Deia]

That green is perfection in every way. The blue has got nothing on it.

 

[chrono]

I prefer the green for a variety of reasons:
1. Better (more attractive to my eye) tone and colour than the blue, which is overly dark.
2. Better cutting which will show off a lot of fire
3. Again, related to the cut, I love the OEC style cut design
4. I know the cert mentions some brown, but if it cannot be seen face up, will it be priced a little lower because of that “fault”?
5. Based on the latest info, does this mean that this particular round was checked by GIA before the cutting process was completed?

Note about requesting a new cert:
My understanding is that for greens (and some other coloured diamonds), the most accurate way to find out if it has been irradiated is to send it to the lab when still in its rough state. Therefore, I don’t understand the purpose of resending the cut stone to GIA for reconfirmation. Perhaps someone can explain to me the reason since from what I’ve read, it is extremely difficult to detect if a cut green diamond is a natural or nuked.

 

[oddoneout]

I like the cut and colour of the green better. I know nothing about coloured diamonds though.

 

[Kismet]

Ooh, definitely the green. It's a knockout.

 

[T L]

Itzik,
It's not that I don't trust you as a vendor, I just don't know how these already cut green diamonds are determined natuaral in color by the GIA. It's the GIA I worry about in this regard with a diamond that has very suspect color. Most of the natural greens I've seen have some grey cast, but this is so minty green and highly saturated, like the irradiated ones I have seen. In this, one must place full trust in the GIA. The fact that in your listing it states

"The old mine cut is an open culet, which indicates that the stone was probably cut many years ago"

indicates to me that the GIA did not have the stone prior to cutting since the date on it is from 2009, so I am very very curious how they determined natural origin if the stone was cut many years ago. Some people create fake "naturals" on green diamonds also in order to deceive. You see, since it is a very large sum of money on a very small gem, and one that is very very difficult to detect as natural in color, I question it. No lab is perfect, and I would want proof other than an opinion on the lab report. I know some people think I'm overly paranoid, but I if the stone were a blue, yellow, pink, brown, olive, etc. . . I would totally trust the GIA report. I don't think people realize the perplexity of green diamonds.

 

[RevolutionGems]

Being something of a Mac dude myself (I am a graphic artist by trade), I suspect that you may be right about the screen capture tweaking the color of the photos slightly. Pulling the image directly off the website, you are probably getting a .jpeg file. When you do a screen capture, the file is saved as a .png. The simple change of format can cause color issues.

My first thought was a CMYK to RGB conversion but, from your description, the images were never converted to CMYK (which will almost ALWAYS change colors, particularly bright greens and blues) so that is out of the question.

My guess is what I mentioned above. To verify, try a little experiment. Take the same image, post it raw (a straight drag off the site) and then post a screen capture of the same image and see if there is a difference in the color. That should give you a pretty definitive answer one way or the other.

 

[BWise]

Sorry for repeating the replies, but I want to scream "the green"!

 

[yssie]

That green stone is amazingly beautiful

You'll have to buy it before I ask for your hand, though, Kenny

 

[Upgradable]

I've been back to look at the green a million times now. I think I'd like to make out with it.

What is it about women and the diamonds I pick?
When I got the Octavia I got 5 marriage proposals, diamond-babysitting offers, gradmas offering to be adopted by me and even a carful of chickens.
A few women admitted wanting to lick it.

HEY!! I proposed way before you picked out the diamond! I thought you picked this one out because I told you I would never try to woo away your step cut stones. I was strictly a vintage cut gal! And, voila! You chose a stone just for me. Now I find you are just toying with my affections..... I think maybe you are not the guy I thought you were. This relationship is OVER!

 

[kenny]

A natural is the original skin of the rough that was left unpolished to save weight.
An indented natural is a tiny cave that was original to the rough.
This green diamond has both.
Also, as explained in my next post, a feather that starts at the skin may contain useful evidence, and, though VS2, this green does have a feather too.

It has been mentioned on this thread that GIA's green-color-origin decision is easier if GIA sees it prior to and during polishing.
In this green stone perhaps that brown mentioned by GIA is in/on/near the naturals and that is key to establishing the natural origin of the green color.

In other words, the lab CAN see the rough of this already-polished diamond (though just a small portion of it) because it has naturals and perhaps in this case enough evidence remains in the vicinity of those naturals to make the call.

I suspect those out of focus brownish areas on the girdle below are naturals, and I wonder if an expert here can verify this.

As I look for green diamonds I often see the comment about brown areas on GIA reports, yet I never see any brown even in the very sharp close ups with great depth of focus, but I do notice the stone will have naturals.
Perhaps when it comes to green diamonds weight saving is not the only reason to leave naturals unpolished.



Below is the GIA plot showing the naturals in the girdle.

 

[T L]

Naturals have been faked before on enhanced green diamonds, but one would hope the GIA can tell the difference between a faked one and a real one.

 

[kenny]

I bought Stephen C. Hofer's massive book on Colored Diamonds, "Collecting and Classifying Colored Diamonds", by Ashland Press, ISBN 0-9659410-1-9.

It is a wonderful, though pricey, read for lovers of these little natural miracles, and I recommend you buy it.

Pages 401 and 402 address color origin of green diamonds.

 

[T L]

I have some books on colored diamonds, but not Stephen Hofer's. For people collecting expensive fancy colored diamonds, it's probably a must have in their library and I should get it. I have been contemplating getting it. Kenny, you are really doing your homework, I am very impressed with your ability to use your head over your heart.

I suspect that the brown stains are the "proof" that the GIA has deemed this as natural in color. It's too bad we have to research these reasons and they're not explicitly on the report.