shape
carat
color
clarity

GIA Triple EX - Do I really need to know more?

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
18,418
gm89uk|1477437081|4090540 said:
Is there anything that accurately measures dispersion (akin to the idealscope for light return)? Maybe a pure white scope with small leds and a camera that quantifies any colours?

And thanks for the clarification of brilliance Garry, will have a read

In that same article there is a discussion about fire and a proposed crowd sourced way to measure it. However this requires a large number of stones to be assessed, bought etc by people making judgments based on observation, not from reading grading reports. This would be matched up with digital data from movies made in ViBox. The quantitative digital fire flash counting assessment would be fine tuned to match the human assessment.
If you have a small fraction of a billion dollars Sergey et al know how and what to do.
BTW we have known how to measure dispersion for about 100 years and it is the same for all colorless transparent diamonds - it is the Constant - the difference between the speed of light in a given material of 2 specific colors or wavelengths.. What you mean is to measure fire as perceived by humans.
 

Serg

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 21, 2002
Messages
2,620
gm89uk|1477437081|4090540 said:
@Rockdiamond & Sergy, people with your wealth of experience gives you ability to pick beautiful stones that don't fit the traditional bill. But for the regular consumer in this online e-ring world, there unfortunately is nothing measurable other than light performance with an Idealscope/ASET/AGS light performance, and to play it safe you would get what you can, best within available technology and resources. A well read consumer will not go for a 34.5/41 diamond vs a a 34.5/40.7 if buying blind (all else being equal), because with information available today, it is usually the superior 'looking' diamond, on paper at least...

Sergy if you were a consumer buying online (maybe you never would do such as a thing), you would be happy to consider a diamond with a 34.5/41 over a 34.5/40.7 if symmetry was good but there was a bit more leakage under table, based on your past experience?


IdealScope/ASET may help sell nice 34.5/41 with same level safety as it was done for 34.5/40.7.
ASET/IS is not grading tools, they are reference , identification tools.
You may select any proportions , fix it, tell it is best and use ASET reference photos to sell identical diamonds .
Problem is in different side. Diamond trade demanded simple , standard solution and AGS delivered it. it was big simplification.
And now regular consumer receives regular diamond.
How many regular consumers are exciting during diamond buying process now?
Consumer can not more find best round cut diamond he may buy just only regular one( please do not tell me the tale me that less than 2% diamonds may receive AGS0).
Yes, it is more safe now and it is more and more boring now in same time.
Less and less consumers are happy to spend time and money for boring process to receive regular round cut.
IS , AGS, ASET, GIA say nothing about fancy cut beauty .
It was big mistake to use inside diamond sales a negative promotion: as blood diamonds, Leakage, child labour, synthetic diamond..
If many salesman's tell to consumer :" My diamonds are not blood diamonds, have not leakage ,…but diamonds from other shop may be have its then it reduce total sales.
Too many stress come from diamond salesman's. They use too much negative instead positive, because it is just more simple for them, because it demands less self education ,..
Instead quantity of Fire or Brilliancy demonstrations for particular diamond , explanations a consumers hear in shops about Leakage, dead zones,GIA Ex is to wide, etc.
and final stage now :salesman sell papers by Internet instead diamonds.
Who did win in this War?
 

ChristineRose

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 5, 2012
Messages
926
BTW, I'm loving this discussion. Believe it or not, I'm an optics and physics and computer science person and accounting person, not a jewelry person. This is why I'd rather have a synthetic--identical physics, better price.

The Internet is with us, like it or not. Anytime you add an option (in store vs. in store OR online) things get better. Online options are so much better (600,000+ stones on PS!) that the in person stores are vanishing, despite having some considerable advantages. Likewise the ability to cut pretty much whatever you want and know what it's going to be like in advance, is going to outweigh the advantage of a skilled craftsman making an offbeat buy lovely stone.

Of course there's still a market for that sort of thing, it will just get much more expensive and harder and harder to find. I often wish it weren't true but it applies to everything from blenders to shoes. The one bright spot I see (if you can call it that!) is that when everyone sells the same thing the prices drop and eventually someone will have to change their strategy or go bankrupt. We're already seeing custom precision cutting dominating the colored stone market. Maybe the tech will jump a few more hoops and we'll be seeing one of a kind diamonds for sale on Etsy.
 

Texas Leaguer

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
3,760
Yes, interesting turn in this discussion.

I'm not sure the diamond salesman is to blame for reducing the excitement of the diamond buying experience, but I will agree with Serg that there is way too much negative selling. And it does turn off buyers. However, I think this stems from the fact that the diamond industry has been historically too secretive. Too much emphasis was placed on trust (blind faith) in the past and facts were treated as inconvenient. Too many jewelers were lazy and failed to develop real competency in the product.

We have entered a new era of information sharing, and consumers today expect transparency. Young male buyers who dominate the engagement ring side of things have a definite preference for an efficient purchase process. They want to 'nail the buy' by doing their homework. It's not that these guys aren't romantic. They are - but just not so much about the purchase process. It's a means to an end for them.

So my point is essentially that much of what we may say is a loss of the romance in diamonds is driven by demand. Demand for proven quality, expertise, dependability, deliverability, and reputation. (Trust is still a big part of the equation!).

I do think jewelers are becoming better educated these days. They have to if they want to survive. They also have to develop their own unique value proposition so that they can have the confidence necessary to avoid resorting to negative selling.
 

gm89uk

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
1,491
ChristineRose|1477484074|4090661 said:
BTW, I'm loving this discussion. Believe it or not, I'm an optics and physics and computer science person and accounting person, not a jewelry person. This is why I'd rather have a synthetic--identical physics, better price.

ditto. I found the diamond buying experience quite dull until I discovered light performance as a factor. I didn't have much control over the process and I was being fed bad information by most jewellers and had to take their word for it (while paying a lot of money). There was never explanation to what makes a pretty diamond other than "different diamonds have their own character". I don't know if this is the general jewellers culture in the US as well.

Ironically the US internet market was far more useful to shop in than the many UK stores I went to and my personal experience is almost the opposite of the negatively described.

Well before I knew about pricescope, I saw several GIA Excellent cuts that were significantly less beautiful than several others, and it was noted in my research before I was 'tainted in bias' by more in depth reading about cut and biased by my reading. Unfortunately while GIA may have had merit in their assessment, there are many mediocre GIA excellents out there, which adds fuel to the GIA XXX too wide discussion.

Garry, unfortunately I do not see a push for development of that kind of product any time soon. I can't imagine it particularly helping sellers to an extent that would fund the research and developmental costs. The idealscope, I believe took off because the concept is easy to understand and the interpretation is not difficult. Although dispersion is a constant for diamond, the bottom-line is some diamonds give off more colours than others as it's not dealing with a single surface, which is surely not just a human visual perception phenomenon and a measurable outcome. The article does have a lot of explanations to what you are describing and will take more time to read through, but has anyone tried measuring fire on a series of static images from several light sources and found it didn't correlate with real life perception?
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
18,418
ChristineRose|1477484074|4090661 said:
BTW, I'm loving this discussion. Believe it or not, I'm an optics and physics and computer science person and accounting person, not a jewelry person. This is why I'd rather have a synthetic--identical physics, better price.
With your background and interest Christine please read this:http://www.gem.org.au/ckfinder/userfiles/files/GAA_Journal_V25_No3_web2(1).pdf
It appears to have been largely ignored and, perhaps like Tolkowsky's work nearly 100 years ago, may take many years to be acted on.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
18,418
gm89uk|1477510491|4090829 said:
ChristineRose|1477484074|4090661 said:
BTW, I'm loving this discussion. Believe it or not, I'm an optics and physics and computer science person and accounting person, not a jewelry person. This is why I'd rather have a synthetic--identical physics, better price.



Garry, unfortunately I do not see a push for development of that kind of product any time soon. I can't imagine it particularly helping sellers to an extent that would fund the research and developmental costs. The idealscope, I believe took off because the concept is easy to understand and the interpretation is not difficult. Although dispersion is a constant for diamond, the bottom-line is some diamonds give off more colours than others as it's not dealing with a single surface, which is surely not just a human visual perception phenomenon and a measurable outcome. The article does have a lot of explanations to what you are describing and will take more time to read through, but has anyone tried measuring fire on a series of static images from several light sources and found it didn't correlate with real life perception?
Thankyou for taking the time to read the article. :read: :read: :read: :read: :read: :read:
Gemex Brilliancescope, Imagem and ISEE2 (now owned by Sarine) for example have done this. I do not believe any serious scientific reviews of any of those systems have resulted in a 'killer solution'. There has been no 'winner take all' as yet.
Apart from Sergey's OctoNus work (which I am not involved in) there are two approaches I am aware of that could lead to a solution. The leading recently retired researcher from GIA told me they are reviewing the appearance of many fancy shaped diamonds that pass thru the GIA GTL lab with a view to developing a grading system for fancy shapes. That outcome should then enable them to improve their round system too. The other approach I know of is similar to that crowd sourced idea proposed in above linked article. :read:
 
Be a part of the community Get 3 HCA Results
Top