shape
carat
color
clarity

Gene's newest stones (precision gem)

ABloom

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 9, 2022
Messages
6
Sorry you don't love it. @Rfisher has it right. There's no point to keeping a gem you don't love (even though I'm pretty sure we all have..myself included). All I know is, if you don't love it now, you never will. Better to send it back so it can find its right owner.

That indoor light pic though. *le sigh*
Wish it could look like that all the time (dang gems and their love of shifting).

Thank you! That's good advice. I'll keep searching for a gem I like better.

I know, it looks SO BEAUTIFUL indoors. If it looked like that all the time, I would've kept it in a heartbeat.
 

Peary

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Apr 24, 2022
Messages
104
I got the pad sapphire (it was my first gemstone purchase other than choosing a stone for my engagement ring). I'm planning to send it back tomorrow, though. I LOVE how it looks in some indoor lighting, but I don't like how it looks outside (overcast lighting, it hasn't been sunny for days). Outside, it looks golden, and I think I was hoping for a stronger peach tone. I've never seen a pad sapphire in person before now, so maybe that is a normal thing for how they look? IMG_8022.jpg

That’s really a bummer. For the outdoor photos, do they look like that color to your eyes too, so it’s not just the photo showing a golden brown color? I feel like if the color really shifts that greatly from indoor to outdoor, then the vendor should’ve really taken pics or photos of both and showed them on the sale page, rather than giving customers a surprise when they receive it. No big problem in this case other than having to spend time and pay to send it back, but I’m more thinking of custom cut situations where returns aren’t possible but the customer is in for a big shock.
 

CaseyLouLou

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Dec 22, 2019
Messages
1,094
Thank you! That's good advice. I'll keep searching for a gem I like better.

I know, it looks SO BEAUTIFUL indoors. If it looked like that all the time, I would've kept it in a heartbeat.

I have found that a lot of paler peachy pink, pad-colored stones look washed out and golden-peachy-beige with less pink in bright sunlight. I have a pad spinel and a Malaya Mahenge Garnet that are identical in color and both do this in sunlight. They show their color better in medium to low light. It must have to do with being so light in color.
 

2Neezers

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
1,779
Wow, that color looks way better than I’d expected. It’s beautiful!! :kiss2:

It does have a very nice color! I took the pictures with a new camera I am testing and I think they’re pretty accurate to what I see in person. The stone might have a little less blue than the pictures show. I‘ve found that these lighter stone perform pretty well during the overcast months we have where I live. There is no sun in the forecast, so I will have to wait a while to see what it will look like on a sunny day. It’s the “why do I live here” time of the year!
 
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Messages
3,301
Thank you! That's good advice. I'll keep searching for a gem I like better.

I know, it looks SO BEAUTIFUL indoors. If it looked like that all the time, I would've kept it in a heartbeat.

I'm a big padparadscha lover, so I just wanted to offer my two beans, since this was your first time seeing one in person. Lots of great advice here already from everyone, and @CaseyLouLou made an excellent point. Some folks really love the lighter tone/saturation pads. Some really love the deeper/bolder shades. I prefer medium or medium-light tone and high (not necessarily vivid, but an intense pastel) saturation. That will prevent the washed out effect you're seeing in daylight. And, let's be honest, daylight is the light source that truly matters when judging a gem's color, because it's natural (if inconsistent). Try to take a gem outside or near a window at about noon on a clear (not overcast) day. You want the light temp to be neither too cool nor too warm. The reason the color of your stone improved indoors is because it was benefiting from the artificial warmth of the incandescent lighting. Anyway! I think you made the right call in sending that gem back. A true pad should never "brown out" under any light source, and "golden" is not an adjective you want used when describing a fine pad. Best of luck to you in finding your dream stone... she is out there!!
 
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Messages
3,301
I got the bargain tourmaline. I don’t really notice the inclusion unless I’m looking for it …and for the price I paid for a 3ct Afghan blue-green tourmaline, I can ignore it :bigsmile:.

D2C42A08-C3F6-4665-807F-0FFB4472427C.jpeg
07AFAE00-8678-449C-A1C9-43A1F4D5CC91.jpeg 2A91D392-9414-4A25-A580-A2F948D65A79.jpeg

That is the most perfect peppermint shade I've ever seen... very appropriate for this time of year!
1229642o3xt6zfh5z.gif
 

PrecisionGem

Brilliant_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jul 27, 2004
Messages
1,927
I would submit that the more pertinent question here is whether sapphires with a strong brown modifier and no apparent pink under natural daylight should be labeled for sale as "padparadscha."

I dont think overcast northern hemisphere winter light is the best judge of color for any stone. Any stone, not just sapphire will shift color under various lighting. An absolute top color pad sapphire, with no heat at 1 ct will be $4000+ , and under overcast winter sky’s will loose saturation compared to incandescent light. My indoor photos are shot with SoLux bulbs color temperature 4700K, which is a slightly warm daylight, with a slight additional 6000K led added.
 
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Messages
3,301
I dont think overcast northern hemisphere winter light is the best judge of color for any stone. Any stone, not just sapphire will shift color under various lighting. An absolute top color pad sapphire, with no heat at 1 ct will be $4000+ , and under overcast winter sky’s will loose saturation compared to incandescent light. My indoor photos are shot with SoLux bulbs color temperature 4700K, which is a slightly warm daylight, with a slight additional 6000K led added.

Natural daylight is inconsistent, absolutely, which is why labs use daylight equivalent installations. And, yes, even a top color pad will appear slightly different based upon cloud cover, time of day, location in the world, etc. But a true padparadscha should never appear brown and the pink should always be present. It's difficult, because we're tempted to describe a stone based upon what we see in our photos (and our camera equipment and editing plays a big part in that as well, not just the lighting). But I think it's most prudent, especially with a stone where a certain designation increases desirability and price tenfold, to base our descriptions upon what we see with our eyes under natural daylight. That's just my opinion, of course. This is a somewhat controversial issue in the gem world, as you know.
 

Rfisher

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 19, 2013
Messages
4,744
But I think it's most prudent, especially with a stone where a certain designation increases desirability and price tenfold,

Putting aside the ‘what it was labeled as’ aspect for a bit, and not that it doesn’t matter tho -
Do you really feel the price was as well?
Vendor specific stock comparison here - I dont get that impression.

Or is this a general statement not specific to this scenario? I think that’s key in this specific discussion/ in this thread.
 
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icy_jade

Ideal_Rock
Joined
May 1, 2009
Messages
5,778
I thought if there is a brown modifier (any color modifier apart from pink or orange) then it’s not a pad? Fwiw I have seen stones with brown and purple modifiers sold as pads, or even certified by some labs as pads.. But personally I don’t think they are truly pads. Just my two cents. But based on LMHC’s definition they should not be pads.

Info sheet #4
9B455868-E353-4F8A-B6A7-DF148B87DBF2.jpeg

LMHC:
The Laboratory Manual Harmonisation Committee (LMHC) is comprised of representatives from the following gemmological laboratories located in Europe, USA and Asia (listed here in alphabetical order):

  • the CGL Laboratory, located in Tokyo, Nagoya, Osaka, Fukuoka & Kofu in Japan.
  • the CISGEM Laboratory, located in Milan, Italy.
  • the DSEF German Gem Lab, located in Idar Oberstein, Germany.
  • the GIA Laboratory with 5 locations: Two in the USA (Carlsbad and New York); one in Bangkok, Thailand; one in Tokyo, Japan; one in Hong Kong.
  • the GIT-Gem Testing Laboratory, located in Bangkok, Thailand.
  • the Gübelin Gem Lab Ltd., located in Lucerne, Switzerland.
  • the Swiss Gemmological Institute - SSEF, located in Basel, Switzerland.
===.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Messages
3,301
Putting aside the ‘what it was labeled as’ aspect for a bit, and not that it doesn’t matter tho -
Do you really feel the price was as well?
Vendor specific stock comparison here - I dont get that impression.

Or is this a general statement not specific to this scenario? I think that’s key in this specific discussion/ in this thread.

Fair question! @icy_jade kind of answered it for me (thank you). I don't think that stone is a padparadscha. I'm sure the price was adequate for a 1ct. ordinary orangey-brown sapphire. But the pad designation, along with a glamorous photo, will absolutely sway a buyer into thinking they've found a steal. Now I'm not saying Gene did this intentionally. Quite the contrary... I think he's a very reputable dealer. But here's the thing, even a very inexperienced pad buyer, such as Abloom, immediately knew that something was off, despite the price, and decided to return the stone prior to any input from this forum. So I think the scenario speaks for itself. Gene took issue with my initial comment, and although I didn't find it problematic, I can understand why. But I think we should all be comfortable in giving honest opinions here to those who may benefit from it, even when a vendor is present to monitor his or her brand (again, not a slight, just smart business). Customers, such as Abloom, ultimately have the final say, and so it's always wise to listen to them.
 

ABloom

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 9, 2022
Messages
6
I'm a big padparadscha lover, so I just wanted to offer my two beans, since this was your first time seeing one in person. Lots of great advice here already from everyone, and @CaseyLouLou made an excellent point. Some folks really love the lighter tone/saturation pads. Some really love the deeper/bolder shades. I prefer medium or medium-light tone and high (not necessarily vivid, but an intense pastel) saturation. That will prevent the washed out effect you're seeing in daylight. And, let's be honest, daylight is the light source that truly matters when judging a gem's color, because it's natural (if inconsistent). Try to take a gem outside or near a window at about noon on a clear (not overcast) day. You want the light temp to be neither too cool nor too warm. The reason the color of your stone improved indoors is because it was benefiting from the artificial warmth of the incandescent lighting. Anyway! I think you made the right call in sending that gem back. A true pad should never "brown out" under any light source, and "golden" is not an adjective you want used when describing a fine pad. Best of luck to you in finding your dream stone... she is out there!!

Thank you, that's very helpful! I'm glad you said WHY it looks different indoors, because I was wondering. And I'll keep the information you gave about judging a gem in outdoor lighting in mind for future purchases. Does overcast lighting make a gemstone look cooler-toned? And sunny, warmer?
 
Last edited:

ABloom

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 9, 2022
Messages
6
That’s really a bummer. For the outdoor photos, do they look like that color to your eyes too, so it’s not just the photo showing a golden brown color? I feel like if the color really shifts that greatly from indoor to outdoor, then the vendor should’ve really taken pics or photos of both and showed them on the sale page, rather than giving customers a surprise when they receive it. No big problem in this case other than having to spend time and pay to send it back, but I’m more thinking of custom cut situations where returns aren’t possible but the customer is in for a big shock.

Yeah, it did look golden brown to me. I would love it if vendors took more photos in different lighting situations, especially if a gemstone isn't returnable. I'm glad returns were easy in my case.
 
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Messages
3,301
Thank you, that's very helpful! I'm glad you said WHY it looks different indoors, because I was wondering. And I'll keep the information you gave about judging a gem in outdoor lighting in mind for future purchases. Does overcast lighting make a gemstone look cooler-toned? And sunny, warmer?

Surprisingly, it actually has more to do with time of day (where the sun is in the sky) than cloud cover. The closer we are to sunrise or sunset, the warmer the light. Kelvin reference charts tend to differ a bit, but I find this one helpful. :) Yes, the best time of day to view stones is midday in indirect sunlight... some clouds are fine, just try to avoid totally overcast/gray/dreary skies. Honestly though, color change/shift stones aside, it still shouldn't cause a dramatic difference in appearance. My padparadscha looks the same no matter the natural light. I also wanted to mention something which you may already know: pads have one additional caveat. Some of them have unstable color centers (which can fade), so it's important to have a lab report that confirms color stability. To my knowledge, it's mostly Madagascan stones from a small deposit that are affected. In my opinion though, and not everyone agrees, Sri Lankan stones are the only true pads. I haven't seen many Madagascan or Tanzanian stones that pass the narrow parameters of being a pad. Anyway... sorry for the book! I could discuss this topic all day!! I hope you find your dream stone soon. :appl:

colour-temperature-chart.jpg
 

ABloom

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 9, 2022
Messages
6
Surprisingly, it actually has more to do with time of day (where the sun is in the sky) than cloud cover. The closer we are to sunrise or sunset, the warmer the light. Kelvin reference charts tend to differ a bit, but I find this one helpful. :) Yes, the best time of day to view stones is midday in indirect sunlight... some clouds are fine, just try to avoid totally overcast/gray/dreary skies. Honestly though, color change/shift stones aside, it still shouldn't cause a dramatic difference in appearance. My padparadscha looks the same no matter the natural light. I also wanted to mention something which you may already know: pads have one additional caveat. Some of them have unstable color centers (which can fade), so it's important to have a lab report that confirms color stability. To my knowledge, it's mostly Madagascan stones from a small deposit that are affected. In my opinion though, and not everyone agrees, Sri Lankan stones are the only true pads. I haven't seen many Madagascan or Tanzanian stones that pass the narrow parameters of being a pad. Anyway... sorry for the book! I could discuss this topic all day!! I hope you find your dream stone soon. :appl:

colour-temperature-chart.jpg

Thanks, that chart is very helpful! This is all very interesting. I had read something about color instability in padparadschas, but didn't know that it mostly affected a particular geographical region.

Thanks for your well-wishes! And happy new year!
 
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Messages
3,301
Thanks, that chart is very helpful! This is all very interesting. I had read something about color instability in padparadschas, but didn't know that it mostly affected a particular geographical region.

Thanks for your well-wishes! And happy new year!

You as well!!
1229642o3xt6zfh5z.gif


Yes, it is the stones from Ambatondrazaka (say that 5 times fast), Madagascar that tend to have color instability issues. Pads from Ilakaka, Madagascar and Sri Lanka are typically fine. Happy hunting!
 

CaseyLouLou

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Dec 22, 2019
Messages
1,094
Surprisingly, it actually has more to do with time of day (where the sun is in the sky) than cloud cover. The closer we are to sunrise or sunset, the warmer the light. Kelvin reference charts tend to differ a bit, but I find this one helpful. :) Yes, the best time of day to view stones is midday in indirect sunlight... some clouds are fine, just try to avoid totally overcast/gray/dreary skies. Honestly though, color change/shift stones aside, it still shouldn't cause a dramatic difference in appearance. My padparadscha looks the same no matter the natural light. I also wanted to mention something which you may already know: pads have one additional caveat. Some of them have unstable color centers (which can fade), so it's important to have a lab report that confirms color stability. To my knowledge, it's mostly Madagascan stones from a small deposit that are affected. In my opinion though, and not everyone agrees, Sri Lankan stones are the only true pads. I haven't seen many Madagascan or Tanzanian stones that pass the narrow parameters of being a pad. Anyway... sorry for the book! I could discuss this topic all day!! I hope you find your dream stone soon. :appl:

colour-temperature-chart.jpg

Interesting! What about time of year? I have heard that stones can look better in the summer.
 

mellowyellowgirl

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 17, 2014
Messages
5,564
You as well!!
1229642o3xt6zfh5z.gif


Yes, it is the stones from Ambatondrazaka (say that 5 times fast), Madagascar that tend to have color instability issues. Pads from Ilakaka, Madagascar and Sri Lanka are typically fine. Happy hunting!

You are full of useful facts!!!! Love it! Thank you!!!

Haha I've been telling bestie to sun her Sri Lankan padparadscha!
 

Peary

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Apr 24, 2022
Messages
104
Fair question! @icy_jade kind of answered it for me (thank you). I don't think that stone is a padparadscha. I'm sure the price was adequate for a 1ct. ordinary orangey-brown sapphire. But the pad designation, along with a glamorous photo, will absolutely sway a buyer into thinking they've found a steal. Now I'm not saying Gene did this intentionally. Quite the contrary... I think he's a very reputable dealer. But here's the thing, even a very inexperienced pad buyer, such as Abloom, immediately knew that something was off, despite the price, and decided to return the stone prior to any input from this forum. So I think the scenario speaks for itself. Gene took issue with my initial comment, and although I didn't find it problematic, I can understand why. But I think we should all be comfortable in giving honest opinions here to those who may benefit from it, even when a vendor is present to monitor his or her brand (again, not a slight, just smart business). Customers, such as Abloom, ultimately have the final say, and so it's always wise to listen to them.

Just want to say, I really appreciate you posting the series of these responses.

I want to go a step further and say that it seems to me, that it's outright deceptive to consumers when a gemstone has color changes, and the vendor does not post pictures or videos of the various main colors, particularly when leaving out that particular color would lower the price of the item. I'm not talking about posting pictures from every angle, any time of day and night, any type of lighting conditions imaginable. I'm talking about if the color shifts from say, pink to orange to brown, as the 3 predominant colors, then all 3 colors need to be shown in photos as a general guideline to inform the consumer before they make a purchase. It is not ok to mislead by omission, that is, only posting the pictures of the stone when it's showing pink and orange, while intentionally leaving out any pictures of the gem showing brown, a less desirable color in this case. Something that could drastically change the consumer's choice to make the purchase or not, crucial information that helps the consumer make an informed choice, must be disclosed or shown upfront. Without a return policy to protect the consumer, this would be absolutely deceptive and I'd not be a happy consumer.

I'm not talking about the specifics of this pad, as I did not carefully look at the photos or videos that were posted, nor am I only talking about pads in particular. In this case, a proper return policy was in place, so no harm done. What's most troubling are the custom cuts where refunds are not offered and the consumer is SOL in those circumstances, although I suppose they could file a dispute with their credit card for product or service not matching what's been advertised.

Related, while I'm on my rant, the same applies to colored gemstones, moissanites, diamonds and what have you, that have bow ties. I find it just as deceptive when the vendor intentionally does not show or disclose the negative aspects of a stone in order to induce the consumer to purchase, and/or to purchase it at a higher price.
 
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