Fidelity

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 10/11/2009 11:14:34 PM
Author: Kelli

Date: 10/6/2009 2:39:57 AM
Author: cindygenit

Date: 10/6/2009 2:29:59 AM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 10/6/2009 1:41:29 AM
Author: cindygenit
If my boyfriend cheated on me, I would dump him straight away. No need to hear his excuses or reasons.

If my life partner/DH/FI cheated on me, I would ask him why he did it. Sometimes, the partner being cheated on could be the major contributor to the reason why the other cheated. Anyhow, I love my FI very much. I would never cheat and he would never cheat on me.

that''s what they all say.

LOL DF!!!!! Its true....

why are you so cynical?

because you can''t REALLY ever know. I don''t think my fiance would EVER cheat. He''s extremely faithful and prides himself on never having cheated, even on non-serious girlfriends. But I''ve seen people in faithful marriages leave their partners for their high school sweet-hearts, that they met and hooked up with at their FIFTY YEAR HIGH SCHOOL REUNION!!! People with kids and grandkids! You just don''t EVER, EVER know what the future holds. If I thought my fiance was the type to cheat, I wouldn''t be marrying him. But a lot can happen in a lifetime. No one predicts the future with 100% accuracy.

by then it would be too old to cheat.

 

[cindygenit]

Date: 10/12/2009 1:50:13 AM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 10/11/2009 11:14:34 PM
Author: Kelli

Date: 10/6/2009 2:39:57 AM
Author: cindygenit

Date: 10/6/2009 2:29:59 AM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 10/6/2009 1:41:29 AM
Author: cindygenit
If my boyfriend cheated on me, I would dump him straight away. No need to hear his excuses or reasons.

If my life partner/DH/FI cheated on me, I would ask him why he did it. Sometimes, the partner being cheated on could be the major contributor to the reason why the other cheated. Anyhow, I love my FI very much. I would never cheat and he would never cheat on me.

that''s what they all say.

LOL DF!!!!! Its true....

why are you so cynical?

because you can''t REALLY ever know. I don''t think my fiance would EVER cheat. He''s extremely faithful and prides himself on never having cheated, even on non-serious girlfriends. But I''ve seen people in faithful marriages leave their partners for their high school sweet-hearts, that they met and hooked up with at their FIFTY YEAR HIGH SCHOOL REUNION!!! People with kids and grandkids! You just don''t EVER, EVER know what the future holds. If I thought my fiance was the type to cheat, I wouldn''t be marrying him. But a lot can happen in a lifetime. No one predicts the future with 100% accuracy.

by then it would be too old to cheat.

Too old?? LOL Apparently not

Hehe even if future hubby cheated on me, I would still have to look at our situation and what drove him to do it! Its never just one person''s fault!

I don''t *think* that my FI would cheat on me... I certainly never would cheat on FI... I could never live with myself if I betrayed my partner like that.

 

[Upgradable]

Wow! There have been some really thought out, considered answers since I last checked into this thread! Thank you all so much for caring enough to examine this subject and help me better understand too.

I need to preface this next remark by saying I''m not intending to disrespect some of the younger posters, but you truly don''t have much of a three dimensional view of what a marriage is!! There is so much "fairy taling" going on in some of your minds that I''m a little scared for you to see what really awaits you in the big wide world! I''m 47, believe myself to still be pretty "young," have been with my husband for 25 years and lots of life changing events. Career ups and downs, chronic health issues, financial stresses and strains, the birth of two children, one with Down syndrome, each of whom are now teenagers. My advice to you at this early stage of your life is PREPARE FOR ANYTHING!!! If you have hard and fast rules, be prepared to bend them now. Nothing ever happens as you expect and if that is something that you think I''m having an "old lady" or "I told you so" moment, tough! Get over yourselves and always be prepared to see things from both sides of the fence, because you''re going to be stranded over there sometime within the next 20, 30, 40 years of your life.

 

[ksinger]

Date: 10/12/2009 8:38:35 AM
Author: Upgradable
Wow! There have been some really thought out, considered answers since I last checked into this thread! Thank you all so much for caring enough to examine this subject and help me better understand too.

I need to preface this next remark by saying I''m not intending to disrespect some of the younger posters, but you truly don''t have much of a three dimensional view of what a marriage is!! There is so much ''fairy taling'' going on in some of your minds that I''m a little scared for you to see what really awaits you in the big wide world! I''m 47, believe myself to still be pretty ''young,'' have been with my husband for 25 years and lots of life changing events. Career ups and downs, chronic health issues, financial stresses and strains, the birth of two children, one with Down syndrome, each of whom are now teenagers. My advice to you at this early stage of your life is PREPARE FOR ANYTHING!!! If you have hard and fast rules, be prepared to bend them now. Nothing ever happens as you expect and if that is something that you think I''m having an ''old lady'' or ''I told you so'' moment, tough! Get over yourselves and always be prepared to see things from both sides of the fence, because you''re going to be stranded over there sometime within the next 20, 30, 40 years of your life.

LOL!!!!!! Ditto to the infinity!! I''m even only a few weeks away from 47 meself! Too funny.

I rarely profer advice in these forums. There is already an abundance - much of it good, though quite frankly most of it is wasted. People usually do what they''re going to do, regardless of what another tells them. To the young folks (like the one I suspect I replied to above) who might get their hackles up at our "tone" - We speak from experience folks, and that isn''t an "I told you so", it is simply that at our age, we''ve either made the mistakes ourselves, or seen them made by our close friends. We weren''t any wiser when young, but we know now on a quite visceral level now rather than just an intellectual one - that all that stuff that people our age were telling US when we were 20 or 25, was absolutely true. Our illusions about being Masters of The Universe! or being able to control other''s actions, died LONG ago - usually because we TRIED it and failed. (still giggling) Of course we don''t have to "tell you so", we can just sit back and know that life itself is going to kick you in the teeth, just like it did us. It''s not that we''re better, it''s just that we have more "time on the planet", and there is just NO substitute for it. Period. We survived - ARE surviving - and got both tougher and softer at the same time. You will too, most of you. Some get more rigid, but most people become more compassionate and flexible. (I always get tickled when I see young people trying to be all proper around Grandma: she''d be SHOCKED if she knew I was (insert behavior in question). No, probably not, and except for the required expression of societal disapproval, might just shrug and then laugh like a loon. She''s seen it all already - heck, she probably did it herself.)

I go forward in my life now, identifying with people older than me MUCH more than younger than me, because I know I''d better listen up.

From one old lady to another, Upgradeable, you just made my morning!

 

[Bliss]

Wow, so many thoughtful and brave posts. I commend the couples that are strong and smart enough to communicate in such an open way. Being in my first year of marriage, it's such a humbling experience. I can truly say that I've grown more in my marriage than in the years before it. Wow! To me, marriage is such an incredible miracle. You learn so much and are so challenged... and in the midst of it all, you get these amazing gifts. It's really a mirror that's held up for you to see your flaws, fears and uniqueness. And from that, you can change and grow as a human being and I think it's just the most incredibe thing. I'm in awe of it.

Having written all of this, I also believe that infidelity is a real threat out there to a lot of couples. Probably to us all at one point or another 10, 20 years down the line even, and that's just from a realist perspective. Just because we are who we are and love the way we do - doesn't mean there's not a wolf in the distance. I don't want to be a sheep that's oblivious to possible danger. We live in a real world and things you would never imagine can happen, can happen. So my philosophy is to know that bad things can happen to good people. Good people are capable of doing bad things or making mistakes. I think it's smarter to see a possible danger than to say it can never ever happen because that's what happens to people who are blind to it. If your eyes are open, you can work together to prevent one partner from being disconnected or feeling alienated.

I don't think people are born cheaters, but I have seen marriages break apart because people fell in love outside their marriages or relationships. I guess, as some people have written here, they had already checked out and therefore were vulnerable to have feelings for other people.

Would I stay? Hmmm... that is so hard. I would really like to say that I would. But I don't know if I am strong enough to do so. DH I believe in my heart would never ever cheat on me, even as I always have my eyes open to the possibility in my head. It's who he is and it's in his DNA. We were apart for more than a year and a half while I went off to "find myself" and he never dated anyone else, even though he had no idea whether or not I'd be coming back to him. The first time I went into his apartment after we reunited, all of my pictures and personal items were all at his home and all over his life... even my feminine products were in his medicine cabinet - like I'd never left. That kind of faith in someone was amazing to me.

Then again, if you've lived past 30 - you can't say never. You see enough in the world to think, "No way could X happen to me" and you see it happen to yourself or someone you know. I like to think of myself as eyes wide open but with a fully trusting heart. I read somewhere that we're all spiritual beings having a human experience in this world. And surely enough, the human experience is incredible but also can be very messy!

I hope PSers can be spared from this kind of heartbreak, though. I wouldn't wish infidelity in marriage on anyone. I cannot imagine the supernatural strength it must take to endure it.

 

[Upgradable]

Bliss, you sound like a lady well on your way to a full life. I wish you happiness and a comforting shoulder in times of tears!

And Ksinger..... tip o'' the hat to you!! Sounds like we''d be fine sharing a glass of wine or two. I look forward to seeing and hearing more of you around here!

 

[Bliss]

Date: 10/12/2009 12:14:59 PM
Author: Upgradable
Bliss, you sound like a lady well on your way to a full life. I wish you happiness and a comforting shoulder in times of tears!


And Ksinger..... tip o' the hat to you!! Sounds like we'd be fine sharing a glass of wine or two. I look forward to seeing and hearing more of you around here!

Upgradeable, you are so wise. Thanks for sharing your wisdom... Your words have always hit a place in my heart. So I'm buckling my seatbelt, putting my coffee in a NASA spill proof mug, and putting on my crash helmet! Let's go, people! LOL. Wheeeeeee!!!!

 

[Bliss]

Date: 10/12/2009 10:09:49 AM
Author: ksinger

Date: 10/12/2009 8:38:35 AM

Author: Upgradable

Wow! There have been some really thought out, considered answers since I last checked into this thread! Thank you all so much for caring enough to examine this subject and help me better understand too.


I need to preface this next remark by saying I''m not intending to disrespect some of the younger posters, but you truly don''t have much of a three dimensional view of what a marriage is!! There is so much ''fairy taling'' going on in some of your minds that I''m a little scared for you to see what really awaits you in the big wide world! I''m 47, believe myself to still be pretty ''young,'' have been with my husband for 25 years and lots of life changing events. Career ups and downs, chronic health issues, financial stresses and strains, the birth of two children, one with Down syndrome, each of whom are now teenagers. My advice to you at this early stage of your life is PREPARE FOR ANYTHING!!! If you have hard and fast rules, be prepared to bend them now. Nothing ever happens as you expect and if that is something that you think I''m having an ''old lady'' or ''I told you so'' moment, tough! Get over yourselves and always be prepared to see things from both sides of the fence, because you''re going to be stranded over there sometime within the next 20, 30, 40 years of your life.

LOL!!!!!! Ditto to the infinity!! I''m even only a few weeks away from 47 meself! Too funny.


I rarely profer advice in these forums. There is already an abundance - much of it good, though quite frankly most of it is wasted. People usually do what they''re going to do, regardless of what another tells them. To the young folks (like the one I suspect I replied to above) who might get their hackles up at our ''tone'' - We speak from experience folks, and that isn''t an ''I told you so'', it is simply that at our age, we''ve either made the mistakes ourselves, or seen them made by our close friends. We weren''t any wiser when young, but we know now on a quite visceral level now rather than just an intellectual one - that all that stuff that people our age were telling US when we were 20 or 25, was absolutely true. Our illusions about being Masters of The Universe! or being able to control other''s actions, died LONG ago - usually because we TRIED it and failed. (still giggling) Of course we don''t have to ''tell you so'', we can just sit back and know that life itself is going to kick you in the teeth, just like it did us. It''s not that we''re better, it''s just that we have more ''time on the planet'', and there is just NO substitute for it. Period. We survived - ARE surviving - and got both tougher and softer at the same time. You will too, most of you. Some get more rigid, but most people become more compassionate and flexible. (I always get tickled when I see young people trying to be all proper around Grandma: she''d be SHOCKED if she knew I was (insert behavior in question). No, probably not, and except for the required expression of societal disapproval, might just shrug and then laugh like a loon. She''s seen it all already - heck, she probably did it herself.)


I go forward in my life now, identifying with people older than me MUCH more than younger than me, because I know I''d better listen up.


From one old lady to another, Upgradeable, you just made my morning!

Kudos to both you ladies! I plan on being like that Grandma one day - a SUPA-Granny who will cackle and shock the younguns with my wild tales...complete with clacking dentures!

 

[Cehrabehra]

All of my life I''ve been the person people came to to confess their sex peculiarities and concerns - especially when I was selling ''toys'' and in a place where an even broader variety of people were seeking me out on these topics... I''ve heard it all.

The one thing that makes all the difference is how you negotiate the boundaries of your relationship. I have seen people successfully navigate polyamory and I have seen it fail horrendously. It all depends on the respect level in the relationship, how the boundaries are defined, and whether or not anyone is going outside of them. You also need to consider if there will be renegotiation available.

I could see myself being a swinger in my 60''s when the kids are out of the house but my husband is very territorial over my body and I respect that. So.... no lusty swinging at the retirement home for me!

There is no set way anyone HAS to establish their vows... the important thing is that both people are on the same page and respect those boundaries. There is no ''right'' and ''wrong'' in someone else''s life. That''s their choice.

 

[Squirrly]

Date: 10/5/2009 3:15:30 PM
Author: fiery
I know I''m probably in the minority here but for me it really depends on the circumstances surrounding it.

i agree with this. the cheating would kill me, but it also would have a lot to do with what point in the relationship we were at, the extent of the cheating, and what preceded it, and if it was confessed immediately and sincerely or if i found out through other sources.

a one time thing i''d be willing to try hard to work through, but fool me twice and i''m gone.

 

[Laila619]

I don't think it's naive or fairytale-istic (is that a word?

) to expect fidelity in a marriage. My grandparents have been happily married for 63 years and have never cheated on each other. My parents are approaching 32 years, my in-laws 36 years, and it's the same story for them.

They have all had fights, health issues of one spouse or both to deal with, problems with the kids, etc. but never affairs or one-night stands.

 

[Haven]

Upgradable and ksinger--Thank you both for your posts, I always enjoy reading what both of you have to say.

My question for you is this:
Would you have *really* wanted to know enough about what life might throw at you when you were younger for it to affect your vision of the future? Enough for it to have severely altered your optimistic, hopeful, fairy tale views of what still awaited you?

I'm very curious. I work with teenagers and young adults, and my favorite thing about them and the ideas that they generate during our discussions and in their writing is their unrelenting optimism and belief that the future holds some very great things for them. This particular optimism presupposes their study of all things, and thus entirely shapes the lens through which they experience their world.

I'm actually not sure if I agree that they are any less prepared to deal with life's tragedies or hardships because they come from a place of unrealistic expectations. After all, most of us come from that place, yet when we are faced with tragedy we often surprise ourselves by being stronger and fiercer than we could have imagined.

At 29 I'm still extremely young myself (thankyouverymuch . But, that hasn't spared me from caring for sick loved ones at the end of their lives, one of whom I was the primary decision-maker for her care. Or from the ugliness that is infidelity in a decades-long marriage, as I found myself playing the impossible dual-role of child and confidant to the cheatee when my father decided to cheat on my mother. I was not prepared to become so intimately acquainted with the slow death that cancer wreaks upon an older body and all the tests and machines and ER trips and meds that go with it, nor for the onslaught of emotions and hideousness that accompanies the separation of two people after a marriage that has lasted for over half their lives.

Yet, having been through those things and more, I cannot say that I wish I had been prepared for any of it, in the sense that prepared means my view of the future was less fairy tale meadows and more hospice room bed linens. Had I really known that I would one day change my own regal grandmother's diapers while she was sobbing and violently cursing at me, or that my parents were capable of failing each other so profoundly that it could embitter them both beyond recognition, I would have never dared to make some of the choices that have brought the most joy and positive change into my life. I would have seen only the possibility of enormous pain in the prospect of marriage, and the certainty of the shame, fear, and horror that accompanies crippling illness in old age. I imagine that I would have been terrified of growing up in the same way that a child becomes terrified of monsters under the bed after seeing a scary movie.

I still have a lot to learn about life, and to be sure, my view of the future is still peopled with wood nypmhs and fairy godmothers, rainbows and perfect sunrises. The bitterness I feel about certain things I've experienced is not so strong yet that a spoonful of sugar can't wash it easily from my mouth, but I have to tell you, I am quite pleased about that.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that maybe it is our unrelenting optimism that helps us paint our world in broad, vibrant strokes when things are going well or even not-so-bad, so that when tragedy strikes maybe we are a bit stronger, a bit more fulfilled, and maybe even a bit inanely hopeful to the point that we can face the tragedy head-on and still believe that *this too shall pass* so I might as well march right through this because there is something better waiting for me on the other side.

Or maybe I'm just a kid, and whatthehelldoIknowanyway?

Either way, I'm going to steal Lynn's line and say "That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!"

 

[Bliss]

Date: 10/12/2009 12:43:27 PM
Author: Laila619
I don't think it's naive or fairytale-istic (is that a word?

) to expect fidelity in a marriage. My grandparents have been happily married for 63 years and have never cheated on each other. My parents are approaching 32 years, my in-laws 36 years, and it's the same story for them.

I agree. I think everyone expects and fully has faith in fidelity in a marriage. That's why they get married, right? (I hope!) You can totally expect and believe in fidelity while also being aware of the dangers in life. Your parents and grandparents are truly blessed and I am so happy for you to have this amazing example in your life!

That is really beautiful. We hope for the same thing.

My heart has blind faith but my head keeps my eyes open! LOL. I don't want to bump into things, ya know.

That way we can both check in always to make sure we're in total communication and help each other avoid potholes in the road.

Can't avoid potholes unless you have your eyes open to the possibility - which is totally different from the idea of constantly scanning for them, which is no fun. I prefer to learn from others' mistakes and I know couples that had the best of intentions and trust, but blind faith sometimes isn't enough. People I really respect and admire had these issues, so who am I to say it couldn't happen to us unless we have our eyes open to this potential danger?

 

[Cehrabehra]

Haven, I am not the two posters you mentioned, but I think having 100% belief that things will work out is essential when you marry... but also have sea legs so that you aren''t completely knocked off course by bumps in the road. Know they will come. It''s just part of life. Thinking that everything will be hunky dory all the time (not that you do) makes the things that upset a marriage feel worse than if you know they will come and deal with them and ride them out.

I think a time comes in most marriages where we ask ourselves - did I really sign up for *this*? Things don''t always go our way. Compromise and flexibility are essential to both partners. It''s a roller coaster, you learn to hold on and lean into the curves

 

[Haven]

Cehra--I definitely agree with you, there. It sounds like Bliss is saying something similar--prepare for the worst, expect the best. And I do, I really do.

I believe that our expectations for life affect our reality and the way we interpret it, that there is a sort of power to expectation. If I knew then what I know now, I think I would have missed out on a lot of life''s joy because I would have been focusing on the difficulties. (However, knowing then would have spared me some awful photographs from the 80s. The perm, the mall bangs, the neon stirrup pants!)

 

[Bliss]

Date: 10/12/2009 1:03:08 PM
Author: Haven
Cehra--I definitely agree with you, there. It sounds like Bliss is saying something similar--prepare for the worst, expect the best. And I do, I really do.


I believe that our expectations for life affect our reality and the way we interpret it, that there is a sort of power to expectation. If I knew then what I know now, I think I would have missed out on a lot of life's joy because I would have been focusing on the difficulties. (However, knowing then would have spared me some awful photographs from the 80s. The perm, the mall bangs, the neon stirrup pants!)

HAHAHAHA! Haven! Stirrup pants!!!!!!!!!!

Heck, you could have warned me about those and I still would have rocked those pants!
This is why BEING PREPARED FOR THE WORST is so important. LOL

On another note, just being aware of the possibility is tremendously helpful. Knowing is WAY more powerful than NOT KNOWING. Information and awareness is really on your side in life, just like having a great sense of humor is.

I've read more than a few PS threads in which women wrote their SOs were bordering on inappropriate with another woman - a colleague at work or a friend who was getting too close and sending smoke signals. And they kept their eyes open, discussed it with their SOs and crisis was averted through honesty, communication and just being aware. They nipped it in the bud before it became a 3-alarm fire. I've forgotten which one, but in one relationship the SO later admitted that he now saw the colleague had a crush on him. Had the PSer just stayed blind to it all, who knows how much more entangled the SO would have gotten, etc? She was smart and had her eyes open. Never did she lose her faith in him in her heart, but her head told her to be aware.

This reminds me of a poster I saw where it read, "Freedom comes at a tremendous price." We live in this amazing country and it rarely comes into our every day consciousness. But when you have a good thing, you do have to make sure it's protected and cared for. LOL. Kind of like a lawn. We love the green yard, but there are always leaves and crap falling on it. There are a zillion invisible things that you are always having to do to make sure you can continue to enjoy it. Behind that green lawn is a lot of hard work and prep! You get sprinklers before the dry season, you sod it... it's just like a marriage. Gotta be aware and keep an eye out for the weeds and the pesky squirrels that keep eating the fruit off of your trees. Constant watering. LOL. DH is an awesome guy, so I can understand why there would be lots of weeds and squirrels around him. I trust him, yes! But you can bet if a weed gets too close to my lawn, I'm going to yank it out! SUPAAAA-GRANNY!!!!

 

[Upgradable]

Haven, you are right in that I'd never want to take that wide-eyed optomism away from someone. But being optomistic and realistic are not mutually exclusive. The willingness to acknowledge another perspective is important, and I do find people (young and not so...) who are rigid in their views, and deny any perspective that differs from their own, to be driving with their eyes closed. I think Bliss had a good assessment of this.

And I think you are an amazing woman who has had more than her share of challenges so far in life.... but they've obviously given you a grace that is obvious to all the read your messages.

Edited to add: You ladies have me laughing to beat the band!!! Keep it up! Laughter is TRULY the best medicine!!

 

[Squirrly]

Date: 10/12/2009 1:15:02 PM
Author: Bliss
Gotta be aware and keep an eye out for the weeds and the pesky squirrels that keep eating the fruit off of your trees.

i did not have any relations with that fruit.

 

[Bliss]

Date: 10/12/2009 1:37:15 PM
Author: Squirrly

Date: 10/12/2009 1:15:02 PM

Author: Bliss

Gotta be aware and keep an eye out for the weeds and the pesky squirrels that keep eating the fruit off of your trees.

i did not have any relations with that fruit.

HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAA!!!!!!!!!!! Awesome! Too funny!!!!

STOP TAUNTING ME FROM MY YARD! I SEE YOU, SQUIRREL!

MY DOGS SEE YOU!

RUFF RUFF

 

[gemgirl]

Date: 10/12/2009 11:55:07 AM
Author: Bliss
Wow, so many thoughtful and brave posts. I commend the couples that are strong and smart enough to communicate in such an open way. Being in my first year of marriage, it''s such a humbling experience. I can truly say that I''ve grown more in my marriage than in the years before it. Wow! To me, marriage is such an incredible miracle. You learn so much and are so challenged... and in the midst of it all, you get these amazing gifts. It''s really a mirror that''s held up for you to see your flaws, fears and uniqueness. And from that, you can change and grow as a human being and I think it''s just the most incredibe thing. I''m in awe of it.

Having written all of this, I also believe that infidelity is a real threat out there to a lot of couples. Having lived through this, I can tell you with certainty that the possibility of infidelity will be a very real threat to every marriage at some point in your lives together. It''s unfortunately just how the world is now. Probably to us all at one point or another 10, 20 years down the line even, and that''s just from a realist perspective. Just because we are who we are and love the way we do - doesn''t mean there''s not a wolf in the distance. I don''t want to be a sheep that''s oblivious to possible danger. I loved my husband completely and had 100% trust in him and still it happened. We live in a real world and things you would never imagine can happen, can happen. So my philosophy is to know that bad things can happen to good people. Bad things happen to good people every day, but when it happened to us, I chose to stay. To love the sinner but hate the sin. Seemingly good people make mistakes all the time either because they are surrounded by the wrong people or by not controlling their own thoughts and emotions during tough times. Good people are capable of doing bad things or making mistakes. I think it''s smarter to see a possible danger than to say it can never ever happen because that''s what happens to people who are blind to it. If your eyes are open, you can work together to prevent one partner from being disconnected or feeling alienated. The best thing we can do for ourselves and for our marriages is to try to "affair proof" our marriages, trying always to be open and honest with each other, creating a home environment where both feel safe to talk about everything and anything, to never do anything with a person or say anything to a person of the opposite sex that you wouldn''t do or say if your spouse was standing right next to you. Our society over the last two decades has become so much more relaxed in our values and attitudes than it ever was before and it''s not entirely healthy for the people devoted to their own marriages.

I don''t think people are born cheaters, After ten years of working in marriage ministry I can tell you that there is such a thing as a "pattern cheater" but there are exceedingly few of those. Those are people for whom monogamy isn''t possible. but I have seen marriages break apart because people fell in love outside their marriages or relationships. I guess, as some people have written here, they had already checked out and therefore were vulnerable to have feelings for other people.

Would I stay? Hmmm... that is so hard. I would really like to say that I would. But I don''t know if I am strong enough to do so. DH I believe in my heart would never ever cheat on me, even as I always have my eyes open to the possibility in my head. It''s who he is and it''s in his DNA. We were apart for more than a year and a half while I went off to ''find myself'' and he never dated anyone else, even though he had no idea whether or not I''d be coming back to him. The first time I went into his apartment after we reunited, all of my pictures and personal items were all at his home and all over his life... even my feminine products were in his medicine cabinet - like I''d never left. That kind of faith in someone was amazing to me.

Then again, if you''ve lived past 30 - you can''t say never. You see enough in the world to think, ''No way could X happen to me'' and you see it happen to yourself or someone you know. I like to think of myself as eyes wide open but with a fully trusting heart. I read somewhere that we''re all spiritual beings having a human experience in this world. And surely enough, the human experience is incredible but also can be very messy!

I hope PSers can be spared from this kind of heartbreak, though. I wouldn''t wish infidelity in marriage on anyone. I cannot imagine the supernatural strength it must take to endure it. It''s one of the hardest things someone can ever be asked to do in their lives.

Good post Bliss. The one thing I wanted to add to my comments to some of the things that Bliss said above is this, and we pass this info on to the new couples in our marriage ministry all the time. This is fact- you can google "the psychology of relationships" and read all day long and the info will be the same.

The beautiful, head over heels, I can''t live without him/her fresh blush of new love lasts two years at the maximum. After that, the endorphin rush wears off, and we''re all left with a choice to either stay or go. Obviously, all of us who are married and in long term relationships have chosen to stay because we saw something in our mates or felt something with our mates that made this relationship unique, important and valuable to us. For the almost marrieds and newly marrieds, this is so important for you to know. Every day and in every way we are all presented with choices. Some of those choices will be small and some will be big potentially life altering ones. It is each of those choices that define who are as a person, what you value and what your life really means. If you take your life seriously and you take your marital relationship seriously, you will protect that relationship through every single choice you make. In making those choices, you can never let your guard down, and you can never slack off in your committment to your spouse out of anger, out of emotional rebellion or out of frustration. A single solitary poor choice can redefine the rest of your life, and if you don''t believe that, you should come to one of our retreat weekends and watch thirty hurting couples with very sad and doubtful faces, with broken hearts and broken relationships walk through our doors in search of anything that will help.

If this heart break comes to your door, take note of what some experienced old marrieds have said in these pages because some of it reflects some of the very valuable info we were given by our mentor couples when we were trying to heal our broken life together. We are human, all of us, and as human beings, we''re going to make mistakes. Only the Divine are truly divine. Use your stumbling blocks, your bumps in the road, your disappointments and your heart aches to help make you stronger. Never stop learning, never stop changing, never stop growing, it''s the key to becoming the best version of yourself you can be; and find things and ways that you can learn and grow from together. (The work that my husband and I have done for the last ten years has literally changed our lives, and hopefully, God willing forever). Be flexible, not with your morals or values, but be flexible in your thinking and acceptance of each other failings and frailties. If you can accomplish that one thing, you''ll never find a reason to be resentful or to hold a grudge! You are two different people from two completely different backgrounds and frames of reference hoping to stay together for the rest of your lives. Flexibility, tolerance and acceptance are a necessity. And know this- for all of the ladies who said "I could never forgive, or I could never trust again"- to love, to commit yourself to someone for life, to forgive and to trust- they are all decisions. They are not feelings, they are not emotions, they are decisions. These are the decisions we make everyday either consciously or unconsciously, and these are the decisions that help couples live happily together, to heal from small hurts and big hurts, and go forward to celebrating a fiftieth anniversary together.

 

[ksinger]

Date: 10/12/2009 12:46:01 PM
Author: Haven
Upgradable and ksinger--Thank you both for your posts, I always enjoy reading what both of you have to say.

My question for you is this:
Would you have *really* wanted to know enough about what life might throw at you when you were younger for it to affect your vision of the future? Enough for it to have severely altered your optimistic, hopeful, fairy tale views of what still awaited you?

I''m very curious. I work with teenagers and young adults, and my favorite thing about them and the ideas that they generate during our discussions and in their writing is their unrelenting optimism and belief that the future holds some very great things for them. This particular optimism presupposes their study of all things, and thus entirely shapes the lens through which they experience their world.

I''m actually not sure if I agree that they are any less prepared to deal with life''s tragedies or hardships because they come from a place of unrealistic expectations. After all, most of us come from that place, yet when we are faced with tragedy we often surprise ourselves by being stronger and fiercer than we could have imagined.

At 29 I''m still extremely young myself (thankyouverymuch . But, that hasn''t spared me from caring for sick loved ones at the end of their lives, one of whom I was the primary decision-maker for her care. Or from the ugliness that is infidelity in a decades-long marriage, as I found myself playing the impossible dual-role of child and confidant to the cheatee when my father decided to cheat on my mother. I was not prepared to become so intimately acquainted with the slow death that cancer wreaks upon an older body and all the tests and machines and ER trips and meds that go with it, nor for the onslaught of emotions and hideousness that accompanies the separation of two people after a marriage that has lasted for over half their lives.

Yet, having been through those things and more, I cannot say that I wish I had been prepared for any of it, in the sense that prepared means my view of the future was less fairy tale meadows and more hospice room bed linens. Had I really known that I would one day change my own regal grandmother''s diapers while she was sobbing and violently cursing at me, or that my parents were capable of failing each other so profoundly that it could embitter them both beyond recognition, I would have never dared to make some of the choices that have brought the most joy and positive change into my life. I would have seen only the possibility of enormous pain in the prospect of marriage, and the certainty of the shame, fear, and horror that accompanies crippling illness in old age. I imagine that I would have been terrified of growing up in the same way that a child becomes terrified of monsters under the bed after seeing a scary movie.

I still have a lot to learn about life, and to be sure, my view of the future is still peopled with wood nypmhs and fairy godmothers, rainbows and perfect sunrises. The bitterness I feel about certain things I''ve experienced is not so strong yet that a spoonful of sugar can''t wash it easily from my mouth, but I have to tell you, I am quite pleased about that.

I suppose what I''m trying to say is that maybe it is our unrelenting optimism that helps us paint our world in broad, vibrant strokes when things are going well or even not-so-bad, so that when tragedy strikes maybe we are a bit stronger, a bit more fulfilled, and maybe even a bit inanely hopeful to the point that we can face the tragedy head-on and still believe that *this too shall pass* so I might as well march right through this because there is something better waiting for me on the other side.

Or maybe I''m just a kid, and whatthehelldoIknowanyway?

Either way, I''m going to steal Lynn''s line and say ''That''s my story, and I''m sticking to it!''

Well, I DID say that I don''t profer advice often. And not raining on the parade of youth IS part of it. Youth IS to be enjoyed: try new things, jump out of that airplane, do the stupid stuff. The darker side of life intrudes soon enough, as you found out. I''m certain you were a bit surprised at both your strength and some of the choices you made when faced with the reality.

But as to the topic of marriage - would I like to have been better prepared? HELL YES! I chose my first marriage for ALL the wrong reasons, and not surprisingly, it cratered. COULD I have chosen better? Probably. But it would have required a fearless self-honesty and lack of "need" that I did not yet possess, and that, in my life''s observation, very few 20 and early 30-somethings have. It''s not a given that a person ever gets there, quite frankly. Examining your motivations and finding them lacking, or finding yourself overly needy or manipulative, or doormat-ish, is extremely at odds with all that "optimism", and uncomfortable enough to turn away from. I had plenty of optimism though, which allowed me to effectively ignore some things that shouldn''t have been ignored. So, optimism can be a good thing, or it can be based on self-delusion, and yes, that is bad at any age.

I''ve been around the block 3 separate times with my husband. Each "iteration" had almost a decade in between. Our second parting was ugly, and effected me for 8 years, during which time I dated no one, and did some serious interior work. When we finally got back together, not only had he grown quite up, but I had found a capacity for forgiveness - of myself and him - that I didn''t know I possessed - hence my initial post that infidelity would NOT be a deal-breaker for me. Now maybe young people these days can do what took me nearly 2 decades, in a month. I doubt it though, if the posts I''ve read in LIW are any indication. Knowing yourself and what it is you need from a relationship don''t come from optimism, they come from hard looks INSIDE, and this is something that the young typically don''t do. I didn''t say no one of that age could be that self-aware, but I observe that it is less likely.

What I object to, and what deserves a comment (I suppose) are statements like "I would never do that/make that choice/tolerate(whatever)", and "have you women no self-worth?? from someone who has only made a few, or NO, steps onto the path, criticizing the choices of those who are much further along. I usually just sit back and shake my head at how much harder a time with LIFE, a person with that attitude will have. This time I commented. I assure you I don''t corner 23 year olds and tell them that life is going to suck. Because it doesn''t. But there is optimism, and then there is just plain stupid, you know? We older folks can''t save the younger ones, but we CAN offer advice that is stored, ignored, and then pulled out later...and you go, "Wow. They were pretty darn close." How does that saying go, "It was amazing how much smarter my parents got between when I was 18 and when I was 25!"

It only becomes more and more like that, and before you know it (dammit!) YOU are the old one!

 

[Bliss]

Wow, gemgirl. I am in awe of you. To forgive someone for one of the biggest wounds a human being can experience, is a miracle. I wish we could all meet this challenge, should we be faced with something of this magnitude. It is to humble oneself, to truly learn what it means to love and to forgive... that's where the rubber meets the road. Walk the walk, not just talk the talk.

God, that is so difficult and I commend you. Some people run, some people stay - but you made a definite CHOICE and stayed for reasons that only God and a select few human beings would be able to truly understand. Wow. I have had friends and seen what devastation a situation like this can wreak on a human soul. It is really awful and I cannot imagine the tremendous amount of faith and hope it would take to overcome it. I have no words! You are amazing. I remember watching the inauguration and President Obama said something to the effect of, "What if Love were the most powerful word in existence?" And it truly made me think. Maybe it is.

 

[princesss]

Gemgirl, thank you so much for sharing in this thread. I'm not married, but this has given me so much to think about, and I'm storing the information for future use (though, to be honest, I really hope I never have to use it in this context). But I think it's important to remember that we can and will let each other down, but that we can come back from it.

I like what you have to say about your relationship being made up of choices you make every day. That really resonated with me. In the almost 5 years BF and I have been together we've gone through a few rough patches, (including one rough patch that ksinger actually helped me through, and whose help I am eternally grateful for), and what I took away from them was that I can choose the relationship every day, and I can choose to grow WITH him. It'd be naive to say that nothing bad will ever happen to us, but I what I do think it's safe to say is that the wisdom you're sharing will be a part of my arsenal when battling those bad things.

It takes a lot to open up so publicly about something so difficult, but please know you're helping many of us by sharing.

 

[Bliss]

Date: 10/12/2009 2:19:38 PM
Author: princesss
Gemgirl, thank you so much for sharing in this thread. I'm not married, but this has given me so much to think about, and I'm storing the information for future use (though, to be honest, I really hope I never have to use it in this context). But I think it's important to remember that we can and will let each other down, but that we can come back from it.


I like what you have to say about your relationship being made up of choices you make ever day. That really resonated with me. In the almost 5 years BF and I have been together we've gone through a few rough patches, (including one rough patch that ksinger actually helped me through, and whose help I am eternally grateful for), and what I took away from them was that I can choose the relationship every day, and I can choose to grow WITH him. It'd be naive to say that nothing bad will ever happen to us, but I what I do think it's safe to say is that the wisdom you're sharing will be a part of my arsenal when battling those bad things.


It takes a lot to open up so publicly about something so difficult, but please know you're helping many of us by sharing.

Ditto this. I think it reminds me of why I'm a Christian, or even spiritually minded. There is so much faith and hope, but we also recognize that there are temptations and pitfalls eveywhere. It's not dominating our lives and certainly my personal relationship with God isn't focused on that, but it's a very real part of my dialogue with who I am inside.

I love God and I try to be a good person in my often bumbling and imperfect way. But I also know that it's easy to fall off the path in a million different ways and that involves vigilence, too. There's a passage in the Bible that says something like, "I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as serpents and as innocent as doves." I take that to mean that you can be as gentle and as trusting as a dove, but it's also important to protect that innocent faith with the smarts that your predators are armed with, too. And by predators, I simply mean life's pitfalls and bumps in the road.

 

[Haven]

Date: 10/12/2009 2:01:38 PM
Author: ksinger

What I object to, and what deserves a comment (I suppose) are statements like ''I would never do that/make that choice/tolerate(whatever)'', and ''have you women no self-worth?? from someone who has only made a few, or NO, steps onto the path, criticizing the choices of those who are much further along. I usually just sit back and shake my head at how much harder a time with LIFE, a person with that attitude will have. This time I commented. I assure you I don''t corner 23 year olds and tell them that life is going to suck. Because it doesn''t. But there is optimism, and then there is just plain stupid, you know? We older folks can''t save the younger ones, but we CAN offer advice that is stored, ignored, and then pulled out later...and you go, ''Wow. They were pretty darn close.'' How does that saying go, ''It was amazing how much smarter my parents got between when I was 18 and when I was 25!''

It only becomes more and more like that, and before you know it (dammit!) YOU are the old one!

ksinger--Thank you for your response. You may many points that are all well taken. Self honesty, optimism, self-delusion, stupidity, all different things and they manifest themselves differently in each of us, I believe.

I quoted your paragraph above because I want to add that I agree with your objection to comments such as "have you women no self-worth?" That particular statement just sounds judgmental

I was one of the posters who said that infidelity would be a deal-breaker for me, and I do still believe that to be true. I hope to never have to test this belief in my marriage, though.

 

[Bliss]

Haven, your avatar makes me laugh!!!!

I read your profound words and nod solemnly -- but then when I look at the kitty with a massive collar - I burst out laughing! Something about the way it's looking directly at me makes it seem like the kitty with the neck brace is telling about these profound and meaningful topics re: life and marriage. Cracks me up!!! So comical! Kitty with the neck brace shares secrets of life! Film at eleven!

 

[ksinger]

I just wonder when she''s going to let that poor cat take off that stupid collar! Poor kitty....

 

[Haven]

Bliss, you are so funny!

My poor little kitty. Geddy had to have emergency surgery when we first adopted him, and he did not take well to his e-collar. He just kept looking at us with those big, woeful eyes.

ETA: ksinger, ha ha! I've never had another avatar (outside of my holiday one, where Geddy's wearing a wreath, instead.) I can't change it now!

 

[Bliss]

Date: 10/12/2009 2:36:42 PM
Author: Haven
Bliss, you are so funny!


My poor little kitty. Geddy had to have emergency surgery when we first adopted him, and he did not take well to his e-collar. He just kept looking at us with those big, woeful eyes.


ETA: ksinger, ha ha! I've never had another avatar (outside of my holiday one, where Geddy's wearing a wreath, instead.) I can't change it now!

ksinger, it is too funny!

Haven, that's EXCATLY it. The kitty has so much meaning in its eyes. It's like those times your pet looks at you in a certain way and you get chills. You think, "Oh my GOD... my pet is human. I knew it. And she's going to open her mouth in a second and start TALKING...in French. OMG. What will the neighbors say when they find out my pet can TALK? Am I prepared for this? Am I going to freak out when she just starts TALKING? AIEEEE! There are no witnesses! No one's ever going to believe me!!!"

In your photo, Geddy looks like he's going to say, "Seriously, Haven. Take. It. Off. Seriously. I mean it. We cats aren't supposed to reveal that we can talk, but now I must. Take it off. Now. Mmmmkay, thanks. And now I will reveal the secrets of life."

 

[gemgirl]

Date: 10/12/2009 2:15:08 PM
Author: Bliss
Wow, gemgirl. I am in awe of you. To forgive someone for one of the biggest wounds a human being can experience, is a miracle. I wish we could all meet this challenge, should we be faced with something of this magnitude. It is to humble oneself, to truly learn what it means to love and to forgive... that''s where the rubber meets the road. Walk the walk, not just talk the talk.

God, that is so difficult and I commend you. Some people run, some people stay - but you made a definite CHOICE and stayed for reasons that only God and a select few human beings would be able to truly understand. Wow. I have had friends and seen what devastation a situation like this can wreak on a human soul. It is really awful and I cannot imagine the tremendous amount of faith and hope it would take to overcome it. I have no words! You are amazing. I remember watching the inauguration and President Obama said something to the effect of, ''What if Love were the most powerful word in existence?'' And it truly made me think. Maybe it is.

Dear Bliss, you are such a sweetheart. Thank you for your kind words.

It is very very hard to forgive such a terrible and profound personal hurt, and for me it did not come fast and it did not come easy. I think especially for a woman, any devoted woman of faith, it''s a profound hurt, believing that you gave your spouse your all but it still wasn''t enough. But, as we''ve been taught and as we repeat tens of thousands of time in our life times, "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us".
If we expect to be forgiven ourselves for any of our life''s wrong doings, we must forgive others. It took me three or four years to understand this fully. It didn''t come easy. I kept giving it all to God as instructed, He is strong enough to carry all of our burdens I was reassured; but it wasn''t until three or four years down the road that one day in church (my favorite place to be around 3 pm when it''s empty except for me), in a loud voice, crying and pleading at the top of my voice, I asked Him to lift the burden of this pain off my shoulders. Within a short time afterwards, I realized I was free! I had truly forgiven my husband and my heart and my days were lighter.

What it comes down to is loving someone unconditionally, just as our God as promised to love us. That''s what marriage is all about! That''s what life is all about. Love is all there is.....

The faith and the hope came from our fellow Retrouvaille couples when we couldn''t do it ourselves. We lean on each other when our will and our strength isn''t enough. To them I will forever be grateful.