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Fancy Grey Diamond?

valeria101

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what would be the key characteristic that I could look for to see the value in this stone?
Gray is a tone without a hue ... So there are degrees of light & dark, but no 'saturation' with a caveat: gray diamonds may have colour overtones (greenish gray, bluish gray ...). It can be said that these coloured grays are relatively dark tone, low saturation colours.

GIA grades play with these concepts to draw some important lines: some gray diamonds quallify for formal 'Fancy Gray' - others do not [I never knew what the formal criterium is - rather embarrasing ... ]. Depending on saturation (say, of green), some get to be 'Greenish Gray', some 'Green Gray', some 'Gray Green', some 'Grayish Green' ... There often are multiple cpensive for colour modifyers & GIA has its own conventions for naming ... which simply are too hairy for me to look into for joy.

As far as I know, the key characteristic for pricing grays is clarity. Then, the above-mentioned overtones ... you've seen what 'blue' does to && these days, violet is worse, green - overlooked... Warm overtones (yellow) - are somewhat discunted, so you may find surprisingly beautiful gray diamonds with yellow & green overtones, that seem low-balled [no complaint !].

IF is unheard of (I recall seeing a few reports over the years & a heartbreaking Fancy Deep Gray IF I should have bought - one of only two such regrets: a transparent black object looks impossible !). The usual clarity charactristic are clouds - rendering gray diamonds translucent, rather than transparent slowly, step by clarity grade step:

VS is still transparent for most iintents & purposes - compared to a clear stone you'd see something, else ... perhaps not. Many Fancy Light Gray here than darker ...

SI begins to look foggy - still, ligghter grays are cleaner. SI2 clarity dues to clouds alone is obviously translucent not transparent & this gets worse down from here ...

_
The diamond you have seems to be Gray or darker, not Light Gray. If there is a colour overtone, I do not see it. Clarity I would expect to be an 'I', not necessarity I1. Not many such things ever get a GIA report, so... I am curious what it might say.

______

Footnotes

# There is more to say about Gray - e.g. very light ones woudl be there in the Near-Colourless & Light range (HIJKLMN... with a gray component, then, at some point, they'd be called 'Fancy Gray'). Because GIA reports for such things are rare, I do not know what the grades look like !

# There clearly (pun!) are more than one type of gray diamond: different kinds of clarity characteristics realizing the gray tone & potential colour tint. This, I would love to dig into one day ... till then, it seems obvious that the common foggy grays get their darkness from the 'fog' (GIA reports would call the clarity charactristic : 'clouds') - hence the lighter gray diamonds also tend to have better clarity. BUT, the dark, flawless grays - rare and obviously recognized for their paradoxical beauty $$$, look so different, they must be essentially different, methinks - would love to know ...
 
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valeria101

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... that turned out to be a rant !

2c

It would be nice to have a GIA report on your diamond.

I am not sure what to make of such stones: gray & not quite transparent if at all, with obvious & interesting ladscapes in them & the bright polish that not many natural materials take & only diamond keeps ! I could imagine a patterned steel or gunmetal ring with a gray diamond & wear the object ...
 

kenny

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I really appreciate your feedback on this. I have bought a number of stones from this Etsy vendor previously that have tested as Diamond at various moissanite tester locations.

I did pay under $1000 CAD for this piece (described as Natural Grayish green SI 1.2)
"described as Natural Grayish green SI 1.2"

There is no such grade as SI 1.2.
There is only SI1 and SI2.
"SI 1.2" is another red flag.
Flakey labs invented an SI3 grade, which the knowledgeable ignore, because they know that is a GIA I1 or I2 , or even worse.

Next the word, "Natural" as used here is a can of worms ...
TWO things can be natural, or not.
1. The origin of the material.
2. The origin of the color.
A diamond claimed by scumbag FCD sellers as 'natural' can have material that is in fact natural (mined from the earth) but have color that is the result of treatment in a lab ... but they conveniently don't bother mentioning that. :nono:

GIA would state natural material but color from lab treatment ... and it makes an enormous difference to the value.

If GIA graded your stone 1.2 ct. Natural Grayish Green, Clarity SI2, and GIA determined the origin of BOTH the material and the color were the natural earth the price would be MUUUUUUCH higher than $1,000 CAD.
That's why I don't believe the "grades" your seller claims, and I'm preparing your for disappointment when you send it to GIA.

When Green is mentioned last it means it's the strongest of all hues present.
For example, here are 4 FCDs listed from the least green to the most:

Greenish Gray
Green Gray
Gray Green
Grayish Green

Pricing will reflect the respective value of both hues.
IOW since Green is more valuable than Gray the four above are listed from least to most valuable.

Since your seller lists Green last, (s)he is claiming Green is the strongest hue.
Again, nobody can grade via pics but I'd say Green is NOT the strongest hue in your stone.
 

Rockdiamond

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Wow- that was amazing Valeria!
A lot of great points raised.
I will add that if one is considering value, the actual look of the diamond makes a big difference. It may sound too obvious, but things like quality of cut matter.
We've seen grey stones graded well below SI2 that still managed to be gorgeous in real life.
Others with higher clarities far less valuable- and or beautiful.

Another thing- since grey diamonds are a lot rarer, the pricing does not follow as regular a procession as say, yellow diamonds.
IOW- easier to calculate the value of a yellow stone, as opposed to grey.
My earlier post about value may have been harsh, Kali, my apologies-
The stone's value to you is most important- no matter the dollar value.
 

KaliDiamond

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Gray is a tone without a hue ... So there are degrees of light & dark, but no 'saturation' with a caveat: gray diamonds may have colour overtones (greenish gray, bluish gray ...). It can be said that these coloured grays are relatively dark tone, low saturation colours.

GIA grades play with these concepts to draw some important lines: some gray diamonds quallify for formal 'Fancy Gray' - others do not [I never knew what the formal criterium is - rather embarrasing ... ]. Depending on saturation (say, of green), some get to be 'Greenish Gray', some 'Green Gray', some 'Gray Green', some 'Grayish Green' ... There often are multiple cpensive for colour modifyers & GIA has its own conventions for naming ... which simply are too hairy for me to look into for joy.

As far as I know, the key characteristic for pricing grays is clarity. Then, the above-mentioned overtones ... you've seen what 'blue' does to && these days, violet is worse, green - overlooked... Warm overtones (yellow) - are somewhat discunted, so you may find surprisingly beautiful gray diamonds with yellow & green overtones, that seem low-balled [no complaint !].

IF is unheard of (I recall seeing a few reports over the years & a heartbreaking Fancy Deep Gray IF I should have bought - one of only two such regrets: a transparent black object looks impossible !). The usual clarity charactristic are clouds - rendering gray diamonds translucent, rather than transparent slowly, step by clarity grade step:

VS is still transparent for most iintents & purposes - compared to a clear stone you'd see something, else ... perhaps not. Many Fancy Light Gray here than darker ...

SI begins to look foggy - still, ligghter grays are cleaner. SI2 clarity dues to clouds alone is obviously translucent not transparent & this gets worse down from here ...

_
The diamond you have seems to be Gray or darker, not Light Gray. If there is a colour overtone, I do not see it. Clarity I would expect to be an 'I', not necessarity I1. Not many such things ever get a GIA report, so... I am curious what it might say.

______

Footnotes

# There is more to say about Gray - e.g. very light ones woudl be there in the Near-Colourless & Light range (HIJKLMN... with a gray component, then, at some point, they'd be called 'Fancy Gray'). Because GIA reports for such things are rare, I do not know what the grades look like !

# There clearly (pun!) are more than one type of gray diamond: different kinds of clarity characteristics realizing the gray tone & potential colour tint. This, I would love to dig into one day ... till then, it seems obvious that the common foggy grays get their darkness from the 'fog' (GIA reports would call the clarity charactristic : 'clouds') - hence the lighter gray diamonds also tend to have better clarity. BUT, the dark, flawless grays - rare and obviously recognized for their paradoxical beauty $$$, look so different, they must be essentially different, methinks - would love to know ...

I attempted a sunlight shot. I agree it is so hard to tell without a GIA report. I want to send it just to see what it turns out to be. sunlight00.JPG
 

kenny

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Again, pics are useless for grading anything about diamonds.
A zillion things affect what we see in pics.

See what they say when you ask a reputable lab to grade based on pics.

Please send it to GIA, then post GIA's the report number whether GIA proves me wrong or right.
 

KaliDiamond

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Again, pics are useless for grading anything about diamonds.
A zillion things affect what we see in pics.

Ask a reputable lab to grade based on pics.

Please send it to GIA, and post GIA's grades even if they prove me wrong or right.
I will absolutely post the report; I look forward to seeing it good or bad.
 

kenny

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I really appreciate your feedback on this. I have bought a number of stones from this Etsy vendor previously that have tested as Diamond at various moissanite tester locations.

I did pay under $1000 CAD for this piece (described as Natural Grayish green SI 1.2)
If GIA grades this $1,000 CAD 1.2 carat diamond a fully-natural (both color and material) Grayish Green FCD I'll be astonished and worship at your feet.
 

KaliDiamond

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Wow- that was amazing Valeria!
A lot of great points raised.
I will add that if one is considering value, the actual look of the diamond makes a big difference. It may sound too obvious, but things like quality of cut matter.
We've seen grey stones graded well below SI2 that still managed to be gorgeous in real life.
Others with higher clarities far less valuable- and or beautiful.

Another thing- since grey diamonds are a lot rarer, the pricing does not follow as regular a procession as say, yellow diamonds.
IOW- easier to calculate the value of a yellow stone, as opposed to grey.
My earlier post about value may have been harsh, Kali, my apologies-
The stone's value to you is most important- no matter the dollar value.
No apologies necessary I enjoy honest opinions. Thank you for the feedback.
 

valeria101

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15,809
Wow ...

We've seen grey stones graded well below SI2 that still managed to be gorgeous in real life.
Thanks for the 'wow' ...

I would agree that the cut is two thirds of the appeal in these. 'Sculpture' material indeed (no sarcasm) ! Intrasparent, drab, gray - and among intrasparent, drab hardstones it is the hardest with impossible polish [Europe & its 'hardsone' stuff talking ! ] ...

May I ask if there is some public documentation for GIA's 'Gray' grading ? 'Never knew what is public & what is not.


________

Re. SI2

I remember seeing at least one Nice I2 in your shop - might still be there. Like ice flowers ! Wish I had asked what kind of 'clarity characteristc' ,-) accounted for that look.
 
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KaliDiamond

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I must apologize for more pics but I changed the WB setting on my camera and I am getting so many rainbows It looks almost green. Can diamonds have multiple color patches or uneven coloring with gray? green.JPG cham.JPG
 

rockysalamander

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Are you certain this is diamond? I mean beyond a tester, which can be quite unreliable. Have you looked at it under magnification to look at the facet structure? Are you certain this is not moissanite? I've not seen any with this included grey, but that rainbow appearance looks a bit like the "rainbow slick" some moissanite develop. Do you have a sunshine polishing cloth or something similar? Give the stone a polishing. Does it come off clean or black?



A polishing cloth like this would tell you its moissanite.
 

Jimmianne

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Really like your curiosity. It will be fun to hear what you discover.
 

kenny

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I must apologize for more pics but I changed the WB setting on my camera and I am getting so many rainbows It looks almost green. Can diamonds have multiple color patches or uneven coloring with gray? green.JPG cham.JPG
Sure, diamond do two things.
They reflect and refract light.

Light refracted will be broken up into all the colors of the rainbow.
Get the angles just right and your pic can display any color.
That has nothing to do with the body color of the diamond.

Light reflected is when a diamond is behaving as a mirror ... again, an angle thing.
It will just reflect the green, blue, purple, orange, red, yellow, etc. of the wall of your room or the colors in your shirt.
 

Jimmianne

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As both Kenny's and my avatar prove. My OEC looks white in direct sunlight, but check it out under a tree on a sunny day you get that funny blue & red, etc. thing to the left.
 

kenny

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As both Kenny's and my avatar prove. My OEC looks white in direct sunlight, but check it out under a tree on a sunny day you get that funny blue & red, etc. thing to the left.
Good point, Jimmianne!

Yes, the colors in my diamond in my avatar are not the result of diffraction or the body color of the diamond.
The colors are reflections of the flower it was placed into.

So I guess there are three possible sources for the color we see in pics of diamonds.
1. Reflections from the diamond's environment.
2. Diffraction
3. Diamond body color

To get a legit pic of a diamond's body color it has to be in a white environment.
Here's a good example where the camera's lens is placed in that slit on the right.
This is how you eliminate a diamond reflecting colors in its environment.

Screen Shot 2017-10-27 at 6.53.49 PM.png
 
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KaliDiamond

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Good point, Jimmianne!

Yes, the colors in my diamond in my avatar are not the result of diffraction or the body color of the diamond.
The colors are reflections of the flower it was placed into.

So I guess there are three possible sources for the color we see in pics of diamonds.
1. Reflections from the diamond's environment.
2. Diffraction
3. Diamond body color

To get a legit pic of a diamond's body color it has to be in a white environment.
Here's a good example where the camera's lens is placed in that slit on the right.
This is how you eliminate a diamond reflecting colors in its environment.

Screen Shot 2017-10-27 at 6.53.49 PM.png
Perfect I have a mini photo box thing that could work I will attempt to create this environment and I will post if I have less colorful bounce-light. Thank you for your suggestion! :)
 

AprilBaby

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I don’t find it an attractive diamond in any way.
 

KaliDiamond

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unaltered.JPG this is the original cropped raw image

This is the same image auto level adjusted autoleveled.JPG

The white environment approach makes a huge difference with the reflected/refracted light.
 

KaliDiamond

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Good point, Jimmianne!

Yes, the colors in my diamond in my avatar are not the result of diffraction or the body color of the diamond.
The colors are reflections of the flower it was placed into.

So I guess there are three possible sources for the color we see in pics of diamonds.
1. Reflections from the diamond's environment.
2. Diffraction
3. Diamond body color

To get a legit pic of a diamond's body color it has to be in a white environment.
Here's a good example where the camera's lens is placed in that slit on the right.
This is how you eliminate a diamond reflecting colors in its environment.

Screen Shot 2017-10-27 at 6.53.49 PM.png
Thank you, I have tried your idea and it really helped eliminate the extra colors. Hopefully the clarity is more visible. unaltered.JPG autoleveled.JPG (The last image is an enhanced version of the original photo.)
 

KaliDiamond

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brightened.JPG -From another viewpoint Digitally brightened/leveled/sharpened
 
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KaliDiamond

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"described as Natural Grayish green SI 1.2"

There is no such grade as SI 1.2.
There is only SI1 and SI2.
"SI 1.2" is another red flag.
Flakey labs invented an SI3 grade, which the knowledgeable ignore, because they know that is a GIA I1 or I2 , or even worse.

Next the word, "Natural" as used here is a can of worms ...
TWO things can be natural, or not.
1. The origin of the material.
2. The origin of the color.
A diamond claimed by scumbag FCD sellers as 'natural' can have material that is in fact natural (mined from the earth) but have color that is the result of treatment in a lab ... but they conveniently don't bother mentioning that. :nono:

GIA would state natural material but color from lab treatment ... and it makes an enormous difference to the value.

If GIA graded your stone 1.2 ct. Natural Grayish Green, Clarity SI2, and GIA determined the origin of BOTH the material and the color were the natural earth the price would be MUUUUUUCH higher than $1,000 CAD.
That's why I don't believe the "grades" your seller claims, and I'm preparing your for disappointment when you send it to GIA.

When Green is mentioned last it means it's the strongest of all hues present.
For example, here are 4 FCDs listed from the least green to the most:

Greenish Gray
Green Gray
Gray Green
Grayish Green

Pricing will reflect the respective value of both hues.
IOW since Green is more valuable than Gray the four above are listed from least to most valuable.

Since your seller lists Green last, (s)he is claiming Green is the strongest hue.
Again, nobody can grade via pics but I'd say Green is NOT the strongest hue in your stone.
After changing the environment I definitely agree that green is not the strongest hue. It is more of a Dark Gray with Greenish Brown to it. brightened.JPG

I found something similar here https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/fancy-color/brown/round-cut/1.03-carat-si2-clarity-sku-913396
 

kenny

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Good job.
BTW, I'm a photography geek who enjoys shooting my FCDs.
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/fancy-colored-diamond-collection.159746/

If you're up to it you may be able to do things to reduce the glare on the facets around the outer edge.
Assuming you have two lights outside the light tent and pointing towards the tent ...
Try moving your lights so they are behind the girdle of the diamond ... assuming that's possible.
You are unlikely to completely eliminate all the glare but you can minimize it which lets you see into the diamond better to appreciate the rich color instead of glare from facets reflecting bright tent walls next to the lights.
IIRC some of my shots were from the light being placed behind the diamonds.

IMO the #1 rule of good gem photography is ... take aaaaaaall day and experiment experiment experiment.
 
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KaliDiamond

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Good job.
BTW, I'm a photography geek who enjoys shooting my FCDs.
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/fancy-colored-diamond-collection.159746/

If you're up to it you may be able to do things to reduce the glare on the facets around the outer edge.
Assuming you have two lights outside the light tent and pointing towards the tent ...
Try moving your lights so they are behind the girdle of the diamond ... assuming that's possible.
You are unlikely to completely eliminate all the glare but you can minimize it which lets you see into the diamond better to appreciate the rich color instead of glare from facets reflecting bright tent walls next to the lights.
IIRC some of my shots were from the light being placed behind the diamonds.

IMO the #1 rule of good gem photography is ... take aaaaaaall day to experiment experiment experiment.
Wow! You have amazing skills! Absolutely stunning pieces and photos. I am going to take your advice for pointing the light directly behind the girdle. I have another FCD that I am wanting to photograph with the white environment and get it graded possibly as well. Fancy Brownish Orangey-Pink I3
 
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kenny

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Thanks.
I love orangey pink and a bit of brown often helps the look, but brings the FCD into the affordable zone.
 

Arkteia

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Chances are you overpaid.
Sorry.
Hope I'm wrong this time.

GIA grading is the only way to know the specs of an FCD.
Knowing the specs is the only way to know the value of an FCD.
I'd never buy an FCD without a GIA report ... (and not a report from ANY other gem lab or just an appraisal or trust the seller's word).

I'm not a gambler and don't look for bargains.
Occasionally someone WILL find a bargain FCD with no report.
That will never happen to me, but on the other hand I'll never lose my shirt either.

99.9% of the time the seller knows exactly what (s)he has but is hoping the buyer doesn't.
Sometimes an FCD WILL go to GIA but get poor grades so the seller will throw away the report and claim better grades.

Many unknowns here.
Yes, sending it to GIA will reveal all.
Your call.
I did find a bargain w/o GIA report, but it was from a well-known vendor. He just had several, did not plan to sell them at a high price and did not bother sending to GIA.
Sometimes sending to GIA will tell a lot about the vendor, too...

But yellow stones are most usually overpriced, and this is why I haven't yet bought mine.
 

kenny

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Arkteia, kudos to you for your good fortune. :clap::dance:

But it's important to keep in mind that an exception to a generalization does not make the generalization untrue.
It's just a generalization and generalizations are (generally) true.

For every lottery winner ...
 
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