Engagement Ring Help

[skylarr]

Hi!
My bf and I are on the hunt for an engagement ring and would like some help from the pricescope community with diamond choices.
We have done a bit of research and understand the importance of cut but feel like we don't have the knowledge to determine which diamond is better than the other since they all seem to be cut pretty well.

Another issue we are having is finding the right setting. I am looking for setting with 2 small pear shaped side stones and I can't seem the find the right one from WF or James Allen. We did find a diamond in the NY diamond district but don't know if it is okay? Please help!

These are the ones we are considering:
1. https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4018636.htm
2. https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...olor-vvs1-clarity-true-hearts-cut-sku-5669552
3. https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-color-if-clarity-true-hearts-cut-sku-3824103
4. We also saw a diamond in the NY diamond district GIA#1218424186

If anyone has any other suggestion of better choices, can you please help to send?
Our budget is under 30k for the diamond
Ct weight: 1.5 - 2ct
Color: D/E/F
Clarity: IF - VVS2

Thank you!!!

 

[farrahlyn]

Hi skylarr! Welcome to PS Any reason in particular you're going with such high color/clarity? I understand for some it is a cultural preference. But if it's just because someone told you you should then maybe you could expand those requirements. G is still very very close to colorless and the regular ol Joe will have a hard time telling the difference from a F, even side by side. Clarity too, VS1 is going to be eye clean with lots of VS2 and SI1 stones being "eye clean" and you won't pay that premium of a VVS+ stone.

Anyway, the WF stone and the JA stones are all absolutely gorgeous. the stone from the diamond district is WAY too deep, pass on that one

I'd choose this WF stone over the one you posted. Similar specs but this one is $4k cheaper
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4022264.htm

Nice size and within your specs

$27,580
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...at-f-color-vvs1-clarity-ideal-cut-sku-5642790

$28,130
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...olor-vvs1-clarity-true-hearts-cut-sku-5286067

Cert looks scary but they are tiny white specs, not going to be visible to the eye.
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4018648.htm


Really nice F VS1 - $21,120
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...color-vs1-clarity-true-hearts-cut-sku-5234244

G VS1 $19,070
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...color-vs1-clarity-true-hearts-cut-sku-4748744

 

[sledge]

These are the ones we are considering:
1. https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4018636.htm
2. https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...olor-vvs1-clarity-true-hearts-cut-sku-5669552
3. https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-color-if-clarity-true-hearts-cut-sku-3824103
4. We also saw a diamond in the NY diamond district GIA#1218424186

You have a nice budget to work, so here are my thoughts:

1. WF - best of the group. Super ideal and gorgeous. Great angles.

2. My second favorite of the group. Less money but also less weight, and less spread. About 0.30mm difference in size, which you will be able to see. Also, not a true hearts & arrow (H&A) stone, so symmetry won't be as good. Lastly, I have to consider upgrade programs. JA requires 2x the original stone purchase. WF only requires $1 more.

3. Don't like the angles. High crown and pavilion isn't as complimentary. I'd personally reject.

4. Diamond is too deep @ 62.9%. Reject.

FYI, here is a copy of the GIA cert for #4.

I will take a look and see what else I can find. Have you also looked and considered Brian Gavin Diamonds (BGD), High Performance Diamonds/Crafted by Infinity (HPD/CBI) or Victor Canera (VC) super ideals?

 

[sledge]

I'd choose this WF stone over the one you posted. Similar specs but this one is $4k cheaper
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4022264.htm

Wow, freakin' gorgeous. Small table and the angle combo I absolutely love!

 

[farrahlyn]

Wow, freakin' gorgeous. Small table and the angle combo I absolutely love!

IKR, it's dreamy!

 

[skylarr]

Hi skylarr! Welcome to PS Any reason in particular you're going with such high color/clarity? I understand for some it is a cultural preference. But if it's just because someone told you you should then maybe you could expand those requirements. G is still very very close to colorless and the regular ol Joe will have a hard time telling the difference from a F, even side by side. Clarity too, VS1 is going to be eye clean with lots of VS2 and SI1 stones being "eye clean" and you won't pay that premium of a VVS+ stone.

Anyway, the WF stone and the JA stones are all absolutely gorgeous. the stone from the diamond district is WAY too deep, pass on that one

I'd choose this WF stone over the one you posted. Similar specs but this one is $4k cheaper
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4022264.htm

Nice size and within your specs

$27,580
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...at-f-color-vvs1-clarity-ideal-cut-sku-5642790

$28,130
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...olor-vvs1-clarity-true-hearts-cut-sku-5286067

Cert looks scary but they are tiny white specs, not going to be visible to the eye.
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4018648.htm


Really nice F VS1 - $21,120
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...color-vs1-clarity-true-hearts-cut-sku-5234244

G VS1 $19,070
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...color-vs1-clarity-true-hearts-cut-sku-4748744

Hi Farrahlyn!
Thanks so much for your response. We were just told by some family/friends that if youre going to spend money on a diamond, get the best quality??
Do you think its worth it to make a trip down to WF? Have you heard any comments regarding doing a custom design with WF?

Thanks!

 

[skylarr]

You have a nice budget to work, so here are my thoughts:

1. WF - best of the group. Super ideal and gorgeous. Great angles.

2. My second favorite of the group. Less money but also less weight, and less spread. About 0.30mm difference in size, which you will be able to see. Also, not a true hearts & arrow (H&A) stone, so symmetry won't be as good. Lastly, I have to consider upgrade programs. JA requires 2x the original stone purchase. WF only requires $1 more.

3. Don't like the angles. High crown and pavilion isn't as complimentary. I'd personally reject.

4. Diamond is too deep @ 62.9%. Reject.

FYI, here is a copy of the GIA cert for #4.

I will take a look and see what else I can find. Have you also looked and considered Brian Gavin Diamonds (BGD), High Performance Diamonds/Crafted by Infinity (HPD/CBI) or Victor Canera (VC) super ideals?

Hi Sledge,
Thank you for reviewing those options! I guess the best bet is going with WF. I have not checked those other brands you had mentioned but will definitely check them out!
Please let me know if anything crosses your path that might be a good option!

Thanks!

 

[sledge]

Hi Farrahlyn!
Thanks so much for your response. We were just told by some family/friends that if youre going to spend money on a diamond, get the best quality??
Do you think its worth it to make a trip down to WF? Have you heard any comments regarding doing a custom design with WF?

Thanks!

WF is a top notch diamond vendor here, and trusted by many. And for good reason, they have a kick butt product, excellent customer policies and treats their customers like valued clients not just another dollar. Plus WF gets involved in this community as well and I've seen them bend over backwards to make people happy.

Nice thing about buying a super ideal diamond is you know you are buying the best diamond available and it has all the backup documentation to prove it.

 

[farrahlyn]

Hi Farrahlyn!
Thanks so much for your response. We were just told by some family/friends that if youre going to spend money on a diamond, get the best quality??
Do you think its worth it to make a trip down to WF? Have you heard any comments regarding doing a custom design with WF?

Thanks!

I'm of the thinking, why spend money on something you can't see? it's not like you're going to walk around with your diamond certificate announcing that your diamond is a D and IF. G is still going to be white unless you are very color sensitive (some people are and it bugs them. some people can see it and don't mind. I can see tint in my H marquise but it doesn't bother me) I also like eye clean SI1 for clarity. I think if you're undecided which way you want to go, a visit to WF would be a great idea! I'd probably visit BGD (another super ideal vendor) as well since they're both in the Houston area. This way you can really get a feeling for what specs you are willing to give on. And you may decide you want that D/E stone with VVS clarity. Or you might give a little and prefer that G VS2 so that you can hit a bigger carat size.

Anyway, make appointments for both BGD and WF and let them know what you're looking at in particular. There are experiences posted on PS for custom work from both WF and BGD. Are you looking for a particular setting? Are you sure you need custom work?

Speaking of G VS2, this one is gorgeous as well and in your price range: (2.06 G VS2)
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3988021.htm

 

[skylarr]

I'm of the thinking, why spend money on something you can't see? it's not like you're going to walk around with your diamond certificate announcing that your diamond is a D and IF. G is still going to be white unless you are very color sensitive (some people are and it bugs them. some people can see it and don't mind. I can see tint in my H marquise but it doesn't bother me) I also like eye clean SI1 for clarity. I think if you're undecided which way you want to go, a visit to WF would be a great idea! I'd probably visit BGD (another super ideal vendor) as well since they're both in the Houston area. This way you can really get a feeling for what specs you are willing to give on. And you may decide you want that D/E stone with VVS clarity. Or you might give a little and prefer that G VS2 so that you can hit a bigger carat size.

Anyway, make appointments for both BGD and WF and let them know what you're looking at in particular. There are experiences posted on PS for custom work from both WF and BGD. Are you looking for a particular setting? Are you sure you need custom work?

Speaking of G VS2, this one is gorgeous as well and in your price range: (2.06 G VS2)
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3988021.htm

makes sense!
Can I ask what you think the best table/depth/crown/pavilion angle is? What are the ideal combos?

Also what do you think about the below 2?
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD7724
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD9571

Thanks!

 

[sledge]

makes sense!
Can I ask what you think the best table/depth/crown/pavilion angle is? What are the ideal combos?

Also what do you think about the below 2?
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD7724
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD9571

Thanks!

HPD/CBI stones are also super ideals but they design/craft/cut stones slightly different. Rather than try to re-explain I am going to quote @John Pollard, who works for CBI.

Actually @sledge, I would mention that the old rule of thumb about 2D crown height doesn't apply in our controlled production. I posted the below in another thread not too long ago, but it applies in this CBI-specific thread as well.

*
Crafted by Infinity’s fire proposition is the same, diamond to diamond.

We have a specific vision for each performance component. We also have the luxury of producing every diamond ourselves. To that end we're achieving 3D cutting goals where symbiosis between the collective facet groups notably outpaces some of those old rules of thumb.

This is a popular topic among our jewelers, and I’m going to share some of my training material here.

First…

What is fire? -vs- What is dispersion?

Many people refer to dispersion and fire interchangeably. But they are not the same.

• Dispersion is caused by diamond material. It’s white light split into fans of rainbow colors and exiting the diamond.
• Fire is physiological. If a portion of a dispersive fan enters your pupil your brain sees a colored flash, or ‘fire.’ But if the whole fan enters your pupil you see a white flash, or possibly nothing.

To elaborate: If a strong dispersive fan passes over your eye and is wider than your pupil diameter you see a colored flash. If that dispersive fan is smaller than your pupil diameter the light is recombined and you see a white flash. If it's too small or weak you see nothing. In optimal cases, a single wide fan passing across your pupil may cause you to see a full suite of shifting chromatic colors, as on the left.



So dispersion is not fire. Dispersion creates potential to perceive fire. But whether you see fire depends on the lighting, how the diamond was crafted and your own physiology.

Diamond fire origins and crown height

Beautiful antique diamonds are known for producing large, fluid colored flashes (usually at the expense of brightness). This cutting style evolved in an age when one rough diamond octahedron would be shaped into a single polished diamond. The most economical way of making that crystal attractive was to ‘brute’ the rough into a roundish shape – initially done by rubbing two diamonds cemented on sticks against one another. Once girdled, thick pavilion mains were polished on the bottom and extremely high crowns were fashioned on top. This let dispersive fans grow large as they passed through generous diamond material. Fire was the primary attribute and appeal of those cuts. In fact, the descriptor ‘fire’ comes from cutters in those days, who were maximizing the reflections of fire from the gas lamps under which they worked.

Economics and lighting changes

That all changed around 1900. The rotary saw allowed factories to get two diamonds from one rough crystal. Mechanical girdling evolved and jewelry store lighting shifted from gas lamps to incandescent, halogen and LED. Diamond industry economics and lighting advances saw crowns getting lower and lower & pavilion mains getting thinner and thinner. By 1980 the tables had turned - pun intended. From gas lamps and fire-priority to spotlighting schemes and brightness/fire/scint.



The proliferation of bright halogens and LEDs even stimulated a parade of cuts with additional facets, marketed as having ‘extra sparkle.’ True enough, those cuts sizzled like crazy when blasted with spotlights, but most had such reduced performance qualities in normal lighting that they didn’t survive for long. The Leo diamond is a notable exception.

Old 2D rule: Higher crown = More fire.

This rule of thumb has been passed down for over a century, and for good reason; All things equal, a diamond with a high crown and small table should produce more visible fire than a diamond with low crown and large table. It’s simple physics: More crown means more room in the diamond for dispersive fans to grow. Viola…

So it’s a good old rule. But it comes from a world of 2D proportions.

Crafted by Infinity 3D approach

We don’t rely on crown height for primary fire. Our proposition is fueled by 3D compound mirrors. It’s part of the consistent vision I mentioned; marrying brightness-intensity with fire-efficiency.

Brightness intensity is easy. Any factory can produce bright diamonds if they choose optimal angles and polish with even nominal consistency. Any production can also increase fire using leaps in 2D crown height.

But marrying top brightness intensity with fire-efficiency involves stepping into another world. It requires planning and 3D focus to keep internal reflections unbroken and of specific size. It also requires extra time, expense of weight and fine-tuning of diamond material. This is not graded by labs or mentioned on reports. But successfully applied, the result is larger internal mirror surfaces, and larger, more intense dispersive fans your pupils will see as colored flashes. "More Fire."



So there's your answer: Within our controlled production any minute differences in 2D proportions are negligible. The results come from all facets working together, which permits some variance as long as the greater goal is achieved.

In fact - and this shocks many of the jewelers I train - the classically considered ‘fire-facets’ actually take a backseat to some key minor facets in our proposition.



Visible implications

The performance characteristics have been consistently described here so I'll leave that to the community. I would just add that our goals for fire deliberately extend to low-lighting conditions where the observers’ pupils become more dilated. The reason I bring that up is because it's where you'll find the 3D compound mirror proposition notably outpaces 2D crown height in bringing fire.

Summary

Basic brightness continues to be numbers-predictable in round diamonds. It’s why the HCA is so simple but effective.

But as it relates to the question here, especially in such a narrow proportions range, achieving 3D symbiosis between collective facet groups can transcend some of the old rules of thumb.

That was a long read. I hope it's interesting and stimulating.

*
Original thread here.
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/cbi-fire.242606/#post-4388614