Disagreement with a Pricescope vendor about stones

[Tourmaline]

I am sad to be posting this, but I went out to three well-respected Pricescope-approved American vendors (hand-forging jewelers, actually) for quotes on a platinum ruby eternity band. I ended up going with the one who gave me the highest price because he assured me he would use "top of the line burma pigeon blood red rubies". That is a direct quote. It's exactly what I wanted. They would complement my L color diamond beautifully.

Please take a look at this ring that I received (the craftsmanship is superb) and tell me if you think these are the pigeon blood red rubies I was promised, or, rather, borderline pink sapphires. I think they are dark pink sapphires, which are cheaper and very definitely not what I wanted.



So...I expressed my disappointment to this well-respected vendor. He said they were, indeed, "blood rubies", but that he was interested in what color I was looking for. I searched for "burma pigeon blood ruby" on Google Images and got a ton of red rubies, NONE of which were pink like these. I picked one and sent him the picture. He said he would send me a sample of rubies closer to the color I wanted, and that I should wait to receive a sample and then send back this ring. I waited. And waited. It has been several weeks.

I wrote to him and told him that I don't like how long this is taking, and that I want to return the ring, which is not what I ordered, for a refund. He said this ring is what I ordered (that these are pigeon blood red rubies) and that he will not grant a refund and will send me a sample when he gets the new sample stones he ordered.

So...do you think these are pigeon blood red rubies?

 

[chrono]

Is this a US based vendor or a Thai/China-based vendor? In many parts of Asia, pink sapphires are considered rubies but this is clearly not so in the US. The colour is fabulous for pink sapphire (very intensely saturated - which I would wonder whether they have been diffused) but yes, if I asked for red rubies, I should get red coloured stones.

 

[Circe]

Is this a US based vendor or a Thai/China-based vendor? In many parts of Asia, pink sapphires are considered rubies but this is clearly not so in the US. The colour is fabulous for pink sapphire (very intensely saturated - which I would wonder whether they have been diffused) but yes, if I asked for red rubies, I should get red coloured stones.

Ditto every word.

 

[Tourmaline]

Chrono and Circe, this is a well-respected American hand-forging jeweler. I've edited my original post to include that information.

 

[chrono]

I am sorry you did not receive what you were expecting and if I were in your shoes, I'd be very surprised too. I presume he never sent you a sample prior to its making and it sounds like you cannot trade this one in for the correct ring, that the "new" red ruby eternity will be extra. If that is case, I would hold off on the "new" band until this one can be settled to both parties' satisfaction. If he is willing to do an even trade for the red ruby eternity at no additional cost, I would wait to see what he comes up with.

 

[Tourmaline]

Yes, he says he is willing to remake the ring with rubies in the color I want. I didn't think I had to see them ahead of time. I was under the impression that "pigeon blood red" meant something specific.

 

[chrono]

Pigeon's Blood Red is an old romanticized name which the trade used to use way back in the days, with the trade now slowly moving away from this because one person's blood red could be different from another person's blood red. In addition, benches used to making diamond jewellery are often not well versed with coloured stones and may not necessarily get you the nicest/top quality gems. To be specific, you can say pure red, medium dark tone and intense to vivid saturation. I'm not trying to excuse the vendor but hoping to give a different perspective. I experience this a lot as a coloured stoner when dealing with diamond based jewellers/benches.

 

[Tourmaline]

Interesting, Chrono. It didn't occur to me that the jeweler and I could have such vastly different ideas of what a color is. He also said "top of the line" though, and top of the line rubies are most definitely red.

 

[lambskin]

I think most of us know what pigeon blood red means...

 

[2Neesers]

Your band is beautiful, but doesn't look very red to me.
I was curious what Burma Pigeon Blood Red Rubies should look like and found this interesting article:
http://www.rwwise.com/copb.html
Maybe you could pass it along to the vendor you are working with
Here's a quote from the article:
"The short answer is simply that rubies should be red. Problem is there are almost no visually pure color in nature so, we speak of a mixture of colors. In gems, we normally speak of a primary and a secondary color or hue. Gems may have more than two hues but it it is difficult for even the most discerning connoisseur to see more than two. Still a ruby must be predominantly red, that is, have a primary red hue. Put another way in the color mix, red must be at least 51% of the hue mixture. If its not red its not a ruby. Any member of the gem family corundum that is any color other than red we call sapphire.
"
I hope he will make this right with you as I'm sure you paid a pretty penny for the band.

 

[Tourmaline]

Thank you, lambskin and 2Neezers. At this time, the poll indicates that voters believe 100% that these stones are pink sapphires and not blood red rubies. I have now told the jeweler about the thread.

 

[senorpacifico]

I feel strongly based on the image of the ring that these would be a pinkish-red ruby. A "pigeon's blood" would and should have a vivid red appearance . Keep us updated.

 

[kenny]

Here's my understanding, please correct me if wrong.

Ruby and sapphire are the same material, corundum.
Corundum of only one color, red, is called ruby.

Those stones are not red.
They are pink.
Thus they are not rubies.

 

[noscrusir]

Based on that box, I think I know which vendor you were working with. If I'm right, yes, their craftsmanship is superb, but their customer service and "return policy" are terrible. They were nice up until the point where I inquired about possibly returning (within their indicated return period too!). It turns out that my future fiance was fine with accepting what I ordered for her so I did not press for a return after that but their shoddy business practices, lack of clear return policy (even playing within their rules & timeframe), and clear lack of concern for customer piece-of-mind make me never want to do business with them again.

It was the antithesis of a "no questions asked" return policy and if I would've known that, I never would have done business with them to begin with. Keep in mind that the product I ordered was stellar quality - I simply wanted to return to save money for something more affordable and was deeply disappointed that they would not comply. I will withhold releasing a name unless I can confirm that this is the same vendor.

Best of luck with your return. From searching other threads, it sounds like if you keep pressing them with this issue, they will eventually give you a reasonable resolution (I hope).

 

[Tourmaline]

Thank you very much for the support, everyone! I appreciate it. Please know that I find no joy in reporting any negativity, and I truly hope this will end well, though I have begun to wonder.

 

[HappyNewLife]

while beautiful, it's pink, NOT red. And if I ordered red, I'd be annoyed that it's pink. Hope it all works out for you!

 

[RandG]

I am so sorry this happened to you. I know that feeling, having painstakingly searched for something, thinking you found it, and then receiving a great big disappointment.

I also recently purchased a band from a Pricescope preferred vendor. When I received it, not only was the overall workmanship subpar, but the stones were monumentally poor. I sent one very basic communication. To the vendors credit, they offered to take it back, no questions asked.

Red is red. If you're not sure how red, ask. It's that simple. Making a mistake is one thing, but not falling on your sword and owning it is entirely another.

I sincerely hope you find what you're looking for. Your ring is breathtakingly beautiful.

 

[marymm]

OP - I am a bit confused - it sounds like your vendor is trying to work with you - he asked for pics of the color you thought you were asking for, and he told you he will obtain a sample and then show it to you - if you approve, then you send back the ring and he makes the new one for you - is this not correct? Are you concerned with the couple-week time lag? If so, you should be aware that rubies are a difficult stone to source - it is likely he is having to check many sources in order to find a sample of the color you've requested along with stones available in the size/quantity required for your ring.

If you'd ventured over to the Colored Stones forum, you'd have received a lot of good advice, including first sending several pics of the ruby color you wanted to your vendor; then having your vendor send you pics (if not actual samples) of the stones he selected, for your approval prior to the ring being built; then, having photos of the completed ring sent to you for your approval, prior to the ring being shipped to you. Not sure if you and your vendor ever discussed what treatment was acceptable to you (top color rubies if unheated are astronomically expensive, basic heat of top rubies is quite common, and of course there's flux-treatment, fissure filling, glass and lead filling... and without a lab report you won't know what you've ended up with.)

eta: I just saw "red is red" in the post above mine - ha ha ha - have to laugh - would love to see a whole thread on this over in the CS Forum - in reality, pure red with zero secondary color in the colored gemstone world is incredibly difficult to find - then's the whole "red to me is stoplight red; red to me is fire-engine red; red to me is (fill in the blank) red".

 

[VRBeauty]

I have earrings that were sold to me as having rubies that are exactly the color of the stones in your ring. It's lovely in its own right, but I would never think to describe it as "blood red."

 

[Tourmaline]

Mary, yes I have been concerned with the lack of communication after I was told he would be getting back to me very soon. The ring was finished weeks after it had been estimated to be finished, and then what was supposed to be days turned into weeks. It was not communicated to me that the stones had to be ordered, either. It sounded like he had them. But that was not the case, which I didn't know until after I asked for a refund. Apart from that, I am concerned that the vendor maintains that these stones are "top of the line burma pigeon blood red rubies". I did indicate in my original request that I wanted totally natural rubies, and the "top of the line" ones from Burma are not treated. Otherwise they are called something else.

As for untreated rubies being "astronomically expensive" in sizes under 2mm, I'm not sure what to say about that. We're not talking about red diamonds. They're (supposed to be) rubies. Had I known they wouldn't be rubies, I would have gone with a different vendor who had given me a somewhat lower price. I paid thousands, not hundreds, for this thin band.

Yes, he is willing to work with me, but I am not convinced that red rubies will come forth. I hope I'm wrong. I would love to end up with a band that I love.

 

[Karl_K]

I love rubies but buying them gives me a headache.
When considering a vendor for them I ask for pictures of what they have used in the past.
The reality is unless they hand select them or have a source that hand selects them your not going to get what you want. They are either going to be low quality, half glass or not red.
Those are clearly purplish pink which is not ruby and my least favorite color for a gemstone.
They are typical of one of the things you might get if you just call a mass supplier and order rubies.

I look at what they have used in the past and make it clear they must be red not pink and not overly purple or dark, lightly heated at the most and no glass.
The only way to get that is hand selection and they are not cheap. Sometimes 4x+ the cost of the lesser quality stuff even in smalls.
Not going with the cheapest was a good idea but the vendor failed to hold up their end of the deal.
I hope they make it right for you and if they don't post who they are as a warning to others.

 

[Tourmaline]

Thank you, Karl. I agree with everything you have said. I had Googled his past ruby rings, and they were gorgeous. I don't know if he had done pieces with ruby melee, though, as what I saw were solitaires, and the stones may very well have been supplied by the customers. I hope this will get resolved favorably.

 

[dk168]

Very nice colour for pink sapphires, however, they would not fit my interpretation of "blood ruby".

DK

 

[Acinom]

A Gorgeous pink but definitely the red you specifically requested.
So sorry you have to go through this
I hope it will be solved for you in a good but also timely manner Tourmaline.

 

[AGBF]

I love rubies but buying them gives me a headache.
When considering a vendor for them I ask for pictures of what they have used in the past.
The reality is unless they hand select them or have a source that hand selects them your not going to get what you want. They are either going to be low quality, half glass or not red.
Those are clearly purplish pink which is not ruby and my least favorite color for a gemstone.
They are typical of one of the things you might get if you just call a mass supplier and order rubies.

I look at what they have used in the past and make it clear they must be red not pink and not overly purple or dark, lightly heated at the most and no glass.

The only way to get that is hand selection and they are not cheap. Sometimes 4x+ the cost of the lesser quality stuff even in smalls.

Not going with the cheapest was a good idea but the vendor failed to hold up their end of the deal.
I hope they make it right for you and if they don't post who they are as a warning to others.

I have to say that what Karl said about rubies has been true about red spinels for me. I have only had two red spinels in my lifetime that I consider truly red, pure red. Both were handpicked for me. Unfortunately, the first one, like many of the finest red spinels, had inclusions. I feared (perhaps unwisely) about the integrity of the stone and gave it up. The stone with which it was replaced, though sworn to be red, was-in my opinion-pinkish toned. The second spinel I had bought for me was carefully hand chosen. Neither stone was cheap.

Deb/AGBF

 

[kenny]

I think I know who this vendor is.
Please do searches on how this vendor treats clients when things go sour.

Knowing more about his history may change how you interact with him ... which may increase the odds of achieving your desired outcome.

If my guess is wrong. then it's wrong.

 

[Tourmaline]

It isn't the one with the reputation for being horrible. Unlike that one, I have seen nothing negative about this jeweler.

 

[kenny]

It isn't the one with the reputation for being horrible. I have seen nothing negative about him.

Thanks.
I stand corrected.

 

[Tourmaline]

Thank you and everyone else for the support.

 

[kenny]

I'm glad you told the vendor about this thread.

That dramatically increases the odds of you getting what was agreed to even though the value of mined and untreated rubies is many times the value of those likely-treated sapphires.

Did your contract specify natural-origin and/or untreated or treated stones?